Oh, look! Another US mass shooting.

[Dungeon Master]

connecticut-shooting-leaves-at-least-26-dead

It amazes me that Americans are surprised by this every time it happens.

Here's a secret: its going to keep happening until you control access to guns. It will happen again next year. And the year after.

Here is the backwaters of Australia, the last time we had a mass shooting (Port Arthur Massacre, 1996), our Prime Minister took control of the gun laws from the individual states. It was a widely applauded move, backed by the vast majority of the country, including the opposition political parties.

The new laws enforced:

• A buy-back scheme where the government paid owners to surrender their guns for destruction
• All automatic and semi-automatic weapons are banned in Australia
• All shotguns are banned
• All handguns are banned
• All owners of other guns need to have a Firearms Licence
• There is a mandatory 28 day delay before such a licence is issued.
• Those applying for a licence need to show a Genuine Reason. Self defence is not acceptable as a genuine reason.
• All guns are linked to the owners via a trackable serial number
• All owners must demonstrate they have secure storage

As a result of the new laws in Australia, all firearms deaths dropped by 60%. Firearm suicides dropped by almost 75%. No corresponding increase in other forms of homicide or suicide.

The rate of firearms deaths in Australia is 0.1 per 100,000 of population. In the Greatest-Country-In-The-World, it is 2.98 per 100,000. That is 30 times higher than Australia's rate.

Australia has not had a mass shooting since 1996 when the new gun control laws were introduced. The US has averaged about 1 mass shooting per year in the same time.

Obama is promising "meaningful action" on gun control this time. Like the last time. And the time before that.

[Karl Henning]

I wasn't "surprised" ... and I only wish it were as easy here as in Oz.

[Brian]

Nor was I surprised. My first thought was, "oh, another one." Only after several hours of reporting has the full horror of it overcome the way that I (and many other Americans) have been desensitized to what should be shocking violence but is instead a commonplace.

Nothing will be done, the Republicans will oppose every idea in your post, and next year there will be two more of these massacres.

[Dungeon Master]

Finally - definitive action on Gun control in the U.S. Obama says he will do everything in his power to help. He is praying for the victims and asking a god to bless the memory of the victims.

Here in Australia (we have an atheist Prime Minister), we don't invoke medieval supernatural forces to effect change.

[suzyq]

It would be great if your Prime Minister would come to the US - we could use his strong gun laws in
this country.

These tragidies happen way too often.  I'd be happy if the NRA ceased to exist.

All we can do at this time is to find a way to express our deep sympathies to all those whose children are now angels and teachers and others who have lost their lives because of one miserable person.

[snyprrr]

You can bane me if you want, but, look, you're in Australia!!

Just make sure that the only the criminals have guns. We wouldn't want anyone law abiding citizen protecting themselves... what?, with a shotgun? You and the people you wish to control wouldn't cut the mustaerd 150 years ago,... this world has gone stupid.

CONCEALED CARRY IS THE ONLY UPSIDE!! Works for Israel and Thailand.


btw- considering how it seems as though only those who take psychotropics do this kind of thing, maybe we should look at that? Video games? etc etc no, I'm sure this kid wasn't on ritalin, no, that could never be...


I guess you didn't hear about the Chinese guy TODAY also? Slashed 22 kids in a school i9n China?? Yes, I know, the Chinese should be banned. Maybe there's an invisible guy in the sky doing all this 'coincidence' stuff? Blame Him, not the guns.


guns guns guns.... boy you people are rich. How many did the soviets murder of their disarmed population?


Tell me oh wise one how you would get the guns from the gangbangers? Huh? How'd you get aaaaaaaaaall those guns into the crematorium? No, let's just make sure Whitey who lives on the Texas/Mexico bordder doesn't have a SHOTGUN to protect his beautiful family with.

Yea, Australia is not the one to talk.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7l7twctQ.HIAeVNXNyoA?p=australia+disarmed+terror+arthur&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-603&type_param=


Other than that, nice to meet you Mr. Top Guy. Hope you have a nice summer!!


Frankly, it's probably just a gov psy-op. No one died. The story's always the same... what? ONE INJURY?? JUST ONE INJURY? Come on, something fishy here.


And no, never fired a gun. You know, he who lives by the sword...

[Geo Dude]

God, I hate this nonsense.  No doubt the Brady Campaign was popping champagne bottles when they got the news in.  The simple reality is this:  Disarming innocent people does not protect them, nor does it keep criminals from obtaining weapons through illegal means.  All of these mass shootings happen exclusively in gun-free zones.  (The movie theater shooter picked the one theater in town that had a no gun rule, even.)  When a mass shooter is occasionally caught alive, they make it very clear that they selected that particular area BECAUSE it was a gun-free zone.  Allow people to defend themselves (in this case, the teachers or security guards) and will not occur.  If people really wanted this stuff to stop they would be advocating for things that actually work like shall-issue concealed carry for law-abiding citizens and removal of so-called 'gun free' zones.  But no, that can't happen because people prefer feeling safe and being in danger to actually being safe.

Other people would be happy if the NRA disappeared, I would be happy if the baptists and bootleggers combination of the naive who wrongly believe that it would reduce violent crimes and the statists who want to prevent people from defending themselves to give the government more power would disappear.

EDIT:  Also, since this 'look at US gun crime rates' nonsense has already started, I suggest that we try breaking gun crimes down state by state instead given that the US does not have one uniform set of gun control laws and see what we find.  (HINT:  Stronger gun control laws tend to be correlated with higher crime rates and allowing concealed carry reduces crime rates.)

I also beg those of you advocating for any kind of gun ban to consider how they are enforced.  We already have police being ordered to kick down peoples' doors in the middle of the night and shoot up their homes because they might be in possession of, say, marijuana.  Is it really desirable to have the same thing occur on a regular basis because someone might be in possession of a weapon, based on the mere feeling of being safer?  Think about it.

[drogulus]

     

Disarming innocent people does not protect them, nor does it keep criminals from obtaining weapons through illegal means.

      It seems to work very well where innocent people are disarmed and criminals are kept from getting guns by illegal means.

      I think we can accommodate hunters and hobbyists without having a free market in murder weapons. The U.S. is uniquely stupid in imagining that the proof that we can't regulate is provided by not trying.

[Szykneij]

When comparing Australia to the United States, doesn't one need to consider the fact that the total population of Australia is about the same as that of New York State, strung across the perimeter of a country roughly the same size as the continental U.S.?

[Karl Henning]

Wisdom! Let the schoolchildren defend themselves! Let the teachers bring their guns to school as a deterrent!

[North Star]

Wisdom! Let the schoolchildren defend themselves! Let the teachers bring their guns to school as a deterrent!

Better start educating more teachers 



Disarming people and making guns harder to get will make getting guns harder. There have been four (two school) shootings in Finland in the 21st century. One of the school shooters was in a gun club, and had a semiautomatic pistol. The other was in a hunting club, and had a rifle. Getting weapons - even a hunting rifle - is quite controlled (much more so after the incidents), if it's your first weapon. I don't remember a single shooting in Finland (of whatever kind) where someone had used a weapon they hadn't a license for, or didn't steal from their family member, who had a license for the weapon.

Arguing that it's still possible to get hold of a weapon is rather silly - you might as well ask why people need driving licenses when people with licenses cause accidents.
I know, I know, some Americans are more interested in not paying taxes and killing the black kids running on their lawn... shooting just-emptied beer cans with their machine guns than stopping children being murdered.

[Gurn Blanston]

Better start educating more teachers 



Disarming people and making guns harder to get will make getting guns harder. There have been four (two school) shootings in Finland in the 21st century. One of the school shooters was in a gun club, and had a semiautomatic pistol. The other was in a hunting club, and had a rifle. Getting weapons - even a hunting rifle - is quite controlled (much more so after the incidents), if it's your first weapon. I don't remember a single shooting in Finland (of whatever kind) where someone had used a weapon they hadn't a license for, or didn't steal from their family member, who had a license for the weapon.

Arguing that it's still possible to get hold of a weapon is rather silly - you might as well ask why people need driving licenses when people with licenses cause accidents.
I know, I know, some Americans are more interested in not paying taxes and killing the black kids running on their lawn... shooting just-emptied beer cans with their machine guns than stopping children being murdered.

I don't presume to know anything about the lifestyles, psychologies or motivations of Finns. Nor should you presume to know jackshit about the average American because you saw some movies and TV shows. Just sayin'. 

[Mirror Image]

I personally don't like the tone of Dungeon Master's initial post. I especially don't like the title of the thread. I think it's disrespectful. I'm not surprised it happened but it doesn't mean that the hurt, pain, outrage, and suffering isn't there and should be ignored. My thoughts are with all of these people's families tonight. I can't imagine what they're going through or what they're feeling, but it's travesty that this has happened.

My opinion of the matter is simple: guns will always end up in the hands of those that want to others harm. Always. You can't stop them. The U.S. government can outlaw them until they're blue in the face. They will still wind up in the wrong hands. This isn't a gun law issue, this is a sociological issue. There's no question in my mind that there's some mentally ill people out there. The problem stems with them and the fact that these disturbed people don't get treatment of some kind and aren't put under some kind of care.

The Mayans believed that the world will come to an end on Dec. 21st, but the reality, in my view, is the world has already ended since there has been war. There is good out there, no question about it, but it's just harder and harder to come by.

[Dungeon Master]

snyprrr, your entire post makes very little sense. You might want to repost using logic and grammar. Note that I used statistics and reason in my original post to make my point.

When comparing Australia to the United States, doesn't one need to consider the fact that the total population of Australia is about the same as that of New York State, strung across the perimeter of a country roughly the same size as the continental U.S.?

The numbers I quotes are rates per head of population so they are already adjusted for population size. The rate of gun deaths in Australia is 1/30th that of the US. The absolute numbers of gun deaths are even more dramatic. In 2002, Autralia had just 45 homicides by firearms. Thats 45 people for the whole country of 22 million people for the entire year. I would hazard a guess that a large % of those 45 were criminals killing each other. Compare that to 12,600 firearm homicides in the US in 2000. Even adjusted for population, that is massively more.

The argument about arming the population against bad guys is just irrelevant here in Australia. So few people have guns, that getting killed by a gun is almost unheard of. Sure, criminals have guns. The criminals will occasionally shoot each other over turf wars etc, but the general population is hardly ever affected.

Note that people in Australia do own guns. You have to be a farmer, a professional hunter, a member of a sport shooting club etc and you have to prove your status to obtain your Firearms Licence. It is not those people that do mass shootings.

These mass shootings that occur with almost boring regularity in the US are almost always done by people who have social, psychological or psychiatric problems, and vent their displeasure on random and innocent parts of the population. Note that Australian-style gun laws would have prevented almost all of these. The 28 day waiting rule and the Genuine Reason rule would weed almost all nutters out. The ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons means that even if someone could get a gun legally, they would not have the firepower to cause such devastation.

Of course, its more than just easy access to guns. There is something in the culture of the US where frustration is often expressed in violence. The overall murder rate (from any cause) in the US is about 3 times higher than in Australia. I am not qualified to comment on that, except to say there is something definitely rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Mirror Image]

snyprrr, your entire post makes very little sense. You might want to repost using logic and grammar. Note that I used statistics and reason in my original post to make my point.

The numbers I quotes are rates per head of population so they are already adjusted for population size. The rate of gun deaths in Australia is 1/30th that of the US. The absolute numbers of gun deaths are even more dramatic. In 2002, Autralia had just 45 homicides by firearms. Thats 45 people for the whole country of 22 million people for the entire year. I would hazard a guess that a large % of those 45 were criminals killing each other. Compare that to 12,600 firearm homicides in the US in 2000. Even adjusted for population, that is massively more.

The argument about arming the population against bad guys is just irrelevant here in Australia. So few people have guns, that getting killed by a gun is almost unheard of. Sure, criminals have guns. The criminals will occasionally shoot each other over turf wars etc, but the general population is hardly ever affected.

Note that people in Australia do own guns. You have to be a farmer, a professional hunter, a member of a sport shooting club etc and you have to prove your status to obtain your Firearms Licence. It is not those people that do mass shootings.

These mass shootings that occur with almost boring regularity in the US are almost always done by people who have social, psychological or psychiatric problems, and vent their displeasure on random and innocent parts of the population. Note that Australian-style gun laws would have prevented almost all of these. The 28 day waiting rule and the Genuine Reason rule would weed almost all nutters out. The ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons means that even if someone could get a gun legally, they would not have the firepower to cause such devastation.

Of course, its more than just easy access to guns. There is something in the culture of the US where frustration is often expressed in violence. The overall murder rate (from any cause) in the US is about 3 times higher than in Australia. I am not qualified to comment on that, except to say there is something definitely rotten in the state of Denmark.

Like I said, if a person wants a gun bad enough they'll get one. Doesn't matter what country they're in. The government CAN'T stop it. That's the reality of this issue.

[Dungeon Master]

I personally don't like the tone of Dungeon Master's initial post. I especially don't like the title of the thread. I think it's disrespectful. I'm not surprised it happened but it doesn't mean that the hurt, pain, outrage, and suffering isn't there and should be ignored. My thoughts are with all of these people's families tonight. I can't imagine what they're going through or what they're feeling, but it's travesty that this has happened.

Yes, it was disrespectful. Deliberately so. I disrespect the US lack of gun control so that it is easy for almost anybody to buy a powerful multi-fire gun on a whim, an murder and maim dozens of innocent people in the space of a few minutes. I disrespect your governments' impotence of instituting a safe society for its own people. I disrespect the NRA, and the fact that such a vocal minority has such sway in US politics. I disrespect the reliance on religion, especially on the far right of US politics, which is used to control the masses. I disrespect the manipulated definition of "freedom" that is prevalent in the US. Those dead children don't have much freedom now. I disrespect that this happens over and over again and people seem to regard it as almost normal way of life in the US. I disrespect the fact that the mentally ill often have inadequate access to health in the largely private health system in the US.

I am a doctor. I work in an emergency operating theatre most days of my working life. I deal with death and life-threatening trauma every day. I literally get my hands dirty with people's blood and guts as I fight to save their lives. Please don't lecture me on respect for life and suffering.

[Mirror Image]

I don't presume to know anything about the lifestyles, psychologies or motivations of Finns. Nor should you presume to know jackshit about the average American because you saw some movies and TV shows. Just sayin'. 

Amen to that!

[Karl Henning]

Like I said, if a person wants a gun bad enough they'll get one. Doesn't matter what country they're in. The government CAN'T stop it. That's the reality of this issue.

That's not "reality," that is a statement of faith. The idea that the government cannot ban absolutely every weapon, does not mean that a weapons ban will be ineffectual.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, it was disrespectful. Deliberately so. I disrespect the US lack of gun control so that it is easy for almost anybody to buy a powerful multi-fire gun on a whim, an murder and maim dozens of innocent people in the space of a few minutes. I disrespect your governments' impotence of instituting a safe society for its own people. I disrespect the NRA, and the fact that such a vocal minority has such sway in US politics. I disrespect the reliance on religion, especially on the far right of US politics, which is used to control the masses. I disrespect the manipulated definition of "freedom" that is prevalent in the US. Those dead children don't have much freedom now. I disrespect that this happens over and over again and people seem to regard it as almost normal way of life in the US. I disrespect the fact that the mentally ill often have inadequate access to health in the largely private health system in the US.

I am a doctor. I work in an emergency operating theatre most days of my working life. I deal with death and life-threatening trauma every day. I literally get my hands dirty with people's blood and guts as I fight to save their lives. Please don't lecture me on respect for life and suffering.

I'm not lecturing you, Rob. What I am telling you is your complaining about the flaws of the U.S. system don't keep guns away from people who are mentally ill. There's nothing in your posts that reveals any ounce of sorrow or grief over the families of those that lost their lives. You're simply using this as a podium for your ranting, which is perfectly fine, but I find in poor taste, but this is your forum after all. I'm just saying I don't agree with the podium you've set up for yourself here.

I don't agree with many of the laws in the U.S. either, but what can I do? People have to live their lives and hope for the best, but I see that some people would rather use their time pointing fingers instead of giving thanks that you're breathing and are alive on this planet.

[Mirror Image]

That's not "reality," that is a statement of faith. The idea that the government cannot ban absolutely every weapon, does not mean that a weapons ban will be ineffectual.

No, I suppose it doesn't, but it also doesn't mean that a weapon will fall into the wrong hands. Happens every day and will continue to happen.