Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[kishnevi]

re: Goodman/Huggett's Beethoven:
I am drawn by these comments as well as by the Hurwitzer hate; I virtually never hear this cycle discussed, by the by. 
I'm interested enough to buy this, but I see it's a Nimbus issue, therefore possibly an unannounced CDR set....has anyone purchased a new copy of this from Amazon directly in the past couple years?  I could believe that copies of an earlier (real CD) pressing are still being sold...

That was my first PI Beethoven cycle.  My main complaint was what seemed to be with the Ninth, in which the choral forces were rather thin on the ground (it sounded almost as if Goodman was reaching for OVPP but couldn't bring himself to go all the way) and both they and the soloists were recorded very recessed, almost as if the mikes were in the front of the church and they were in the back.  Beyond that i wouldn't criticize the set, and if you can find it at a price similar to what Gurn paid, I'd say go for it.

[Elgarian]

Right, now, how about Beethoven? I was surprised to see Immerseel so praised. I have his Berlioz Symphony and I think the pacing sluggish and lacking flexibility. But I take it his Beethoven can't be like that. Can someone tell me where he scores well?

The first thing I heard of Immerseel was this Beethoven set. After that ecstatic revelation I went through a period where I wanted to seek out everything by Immerseel that I could lay my hands on, prepared to be overwhelmed, but while I tried hard to give everything the benefit of the doubt, overall the experiment left me disappointed. His Berlioz seemed a bit ordinary and lacking in weight; his Scheherazade was worthy but a bit dull; his Mozart concertos were just too damn polite.

No matter; as someone once said, we shouldn't judge an artist by his worst performances, or even by some sort of concocted average, but by his best. And I remain in awe of Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies - and if I had to choose just one, it would be the revelatory, taking-no-prisoners fifth. (Someone hereabouts has described his Beethoven as 'nice'. I can't see that, not at all. Rather, think Beatles first album, fifties Elvis: blood-pulsing rhythmic energy applied with an intensity of precision.)

[knight66]

Alan, I listened to the Fifth this morning on Spotify, they have the complete cycle. I did enjoy it and agree your take on it. He leaps on the piece. It is quite savage. I enjoyed the orchestral sound. I have not gone in for a lot of HIP LvB, but i did watch John Elliot Gardiner's TV reconstruction of the Eroica and i thought that was thrilling and ear opening.

Mike

[The new erato]

The first thing I heard of Immerseel was this Beethoven set. After that ecstatic revelation I went through a period where I wanted to seek out everything by Immerseel that I could lay my hands on, prepared to be overwhelmed, but while I tried hard to give everything the benefit of the doubt, overall the experiment left me disappointed. His Berlioz seemed a bit ordinary and lacking in weight; his Scheherazade was worthy but a bit dull; his Mozart concertos were just too damn polite.

But his disc of Poulenc concertoes is great. Just saying, as this is a Beethoven thread.

[DavidRoss]

Alan, I listened to the Fifth this morning on Spotify, they have the complete cycle. I did enjoy it and agree your take on it. He leaps on the piece. It is quite savage. I enjoyed the orchestral sound. I have not gone in for a lot of HIP LvB, but i did watch John Elliot Gardiner's TV reconstruction of the Eroica and i thought that was thrilling and ear opening.

Good to know it can be previewed thus, enabling prospective purchasers to use their own judgment rather than rely on others'. I just checked and Mog has it now, too.

Hearing the funeral march of the 3rd via Zig Zag's site a few years ago compelled my purchase of the set ... after someone here called my attention to it. I doubt I'd have bought it on his recommendation alone, but without his recommendation I probably wouldn't have troubled myself to hear it.

All this talk of their 5th commands me to spin it now. 

...........................................................................

Okay, just played it and agree that it's very good. I especially like the drive of the outer movements. But ... it's a bit tame compared to Brüggen on Philips, a bit thin-sounding and well-mannered, more along the lines of Gardiner's (but with gusto!), rather than bristling with the balls-out enthusiasm and raucous period instrument sonorities that I love about Brüggen's ground-breaking cycle.

[knight66]

Happy spinning David. Right now for me, BBC Radio 4, a Thatcher tribute, so a musical sorbet will shortly be needed.

Mike

[xochitl]

i, too just heard immerseel's 5th after all the hype and found it very good but not as intense as bruggen

[Geo Dude]

i, too just heard immerseel's 5th after all the hype and found it very good but not as intense as bruggen

Which Bruggen recording, the first or second?

[xochitl]

i havent heard the second one

really want to tho

[J.A.W.]

Which Bruggen recording, the first or second?

The first Brüggen is more intense than the recent second, which sounds a bit "tired" to me.

[DavidRoss]

The second one can be heard now via Mog (and Spotify?). I haven't listened to it all, but so far have not heard anything prompting purchase. "Tired" isn't the adjective that comes to mind for me, but I can see how it might be appropriate in comparison to the first cycle.

To me it sounds pretty conventional, lacking the exuberant enthusiasm that pervades their first go starting nearly 30 years ago, when historically informed performance of Beethoven symphonies on period instruments was new and fresh and exciting and adventurous.  Brüggen and his band weren't just giving their all to great music they loved, they were throwing down the gauntlet to a century of calcified, Wagnerized performance that buried Beethoven's revolutionary in-your-face explosion of genius under a stifling blanket of romanticized reverence.

Beethoven was a Lotus Elan SE, not a Lincoln Town Car, and Brüggen drove his orchestra like Jimmy Clark, not like Morgan Freeman driving Miss Daisy.

P.S. The dullest, most ill-played, and worst-recorded HIP cycle I know is Goodman's.  If Brüggen I is a Lotus, and Barenboim is a Town Car, then Gardiner is a Mazda Miata, Abbado/Rome is a BMW 320i, and Goodman is a rusted-out 1972 Ford Galaxie.

[DavidRoss]

I think you are conflating Saul and Sean, or just possibly Pink Harp. Saul was the Mendelssohn nut, composer, artist and ultra Zionist.

Not conflating them, Mike, but thinking of several different ax-grinding narcissists whose limited entertainment value depended on being laughed at, not with. Couldn't think of their names, and Pinkie didn't even come to mind else I'd certainly have added older-women's-panties-sniffing fetishist to the list.   

Ahhh ... the good old days!

[Karl Henning]

No, there isn't anyone here to match Pink's refined taste . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

No, there isn't anyone here to match Pink's refined taste . . . .

As far as we know... 

[jlaurson]

Beethoven was a Lotus Elan SE, not a Lincoln Town Car, and Brüggen drove his orchestra like Jimmy Clark, not like Morgan Freeman driving Miss Daisy.

I agree about the Town Car Barenboim analogy... although I'd like to think of it as Bentley instead, I guess [because I don't like Towncars, get the analogy, but love Barenboim]. And certainly Bruggen drives very differently than Dannyboi. But if you take the Eroica, you'll find that he is actually as slow as Barenboim, and considerably slower than almost every other standard interpretation, including the 60s and 70s Karajan and any Abbado ever recorded. (And yes, that's taking into account the repeats.)

[Karl Henning]

As far as we know... 

Motion carried as emended.

[DavidRoss]

I agree about the Town Car Barenboim analogy... although I'd like to think of it as Bentley instead, I guess [because I don't like Towncars, get the analogy, but love Barenboim]. And certainly Bruggen drives very differently than Dannyboi. But if you take the Eroica, you'll find that he is actually as slow as Barenboim, and considerably slower than almost every other standard interpretation, including the 60s and 70s Karajan and any Abbado ever recorded. (And yes, that's taking into account the repeats.)

Bentley it is! (I love Franny's Eroica, BTW.) I wasn't even thinking about speed, but rather the feel of the thing: a light and nimble roadster transmitting every bump and ripple through the steering wheel and chassis to the seat of your pants, versus a big, plush sedan with power to spare meant for cruising the autobahn in the lap of luxury. 

[jlaurson]

Bentley it is! (I love Franny's Eroica, BTW.) I wasn't even thinking about speed, but rather the feel of the thing: a light and nimble roadster transmitting every bump and ripple through the steering wheel and chassis to the seat of your pants, versus a big, plush sedan with power to spare meant for cruising the autobahn in the lap of luxury. 

That's true. A plush sedan on the Autobahn at 100 mph will seem slooooow and comfy. Take a Sunbeam Alpine on a countryside road and 90 mph will seem downright reckless.

[Elgarian]

I've always supposed Immerseel rode a Harley-Davidson.

[xochitl]

this might sound silly, but the automobile comparisons are really enlightening

i would add: lenny's 60s cycle is a same vintage corvette