Bach vs. Beethoven!

[dtwilbanks]

Hey, I started the damned thread. 

[Gabriel]

I do own quite a bit of LvB & do have favorites when in the mood...
the last 3 piano sonatas, some of the bagatelles...
and a few of the last string quartets....
the rest can be tossed back into the sea, i dont have much use for it really...

Quoting James from the Hummel thread:

And his great talent was vital in the evolution & renewal of form, Beethoven developed new and more elaborate Sonata and symphonic forms etc. These formal developments opened new ground for subsequent composers, his brilliant groundwork on the structural vessels that delivered so much for the future, which he cast a very large shadow over...

He obviously built upon what came before...but he did so with such staggering genius, honed and distilled into staggering results...he did elaborate and further development form. i.e. Symphonic, sonata, string quartets etc

Sorry, James, but I feel in your words an abnormal incoherence.

[Haffner]

Well, I was halfway through Brandenburg Concerto #3 when I had to slap on Klemperer's Missa Solemnis. Shucks.

[Larry Rinkel]

Sorry, James, but I feel in your words an abnormal incoherence.

Maybe there are two posters named James.

[karlhenning]

Well, I was halfway through Brandenburg Concerto #3 when I had to slap on Klemperer's Missa Solemnis. Shucks.

You gotta do what you gotta do, Andy :-)

[quintett op.57]

I do own quite a bit of LvB & do have favorites when in the mood...
the last 3 piano sonatas, some of the bagatelles...
and a few of the last string quartets....
the rest can be tossed back into the sea, i dont have much use for it really...

Well I might be wrong, but for me, this subjectivity goes much far beyond taste.
I assume it's a refusal to consider some pieces. It has more to do with what you would like your taste to be.

Personnally I enjoy almost all the classical music I know and I believe it's nothing but a matter of opening your heart to it and to make an effort.
You'll never read anything scornful from me about classical music, there are those I consider great or good and those I've not understood.
I'll never throw anything to the bin or to the sea because it could only limit my musical knowledge and the potential pleasures I could get out of this art.

[Haffner]

You gotta do what you gotta do, Andy :-)

The Missa Solemnis is just...

"in a class by itself" is all I can come up with. It would be euphoria-inducing to hear that piece performed in St. Pete's Basilica...shoot, at my little parish down the street!

[Josquin des Prez]

Bach > (late) Beethoven > everybody else.

I like to keep things simple, as you can see. 

[quintett op.57]

I would be harder to keep it simple if you had to explain what it means.

[Haffner]

Bach > (late) Beethoven > everybody else.

I like to keep things simple, as you can see. 

Thus, Bach is greater than late Beethoven, yet thay both blow out every other composer's output.

[prémont]

By "impersonality" Eliot meant subjectivity, impartiality, disinterestedness, distance - the control of accidentals, of subjectivity, of mere contingencies. Hence the idea of the objective correlative and its implied contract between writer and reader - that the impenetrably private is inadmissable as art.[/i]

With due respect for Eliot, what has this do do with Bach?

[Scriptavolant]

With due respect for Eliot, what has this do do with Bach?

The poetics of objectivity Eliot built on Classic Culture (and which were renewed in Neoclassical period), I find in Bach.

"subjectivity, impartiality, disinterestedness, distance - the control of accidentals, of subjectivity, of mere contingencies"

and "the impenetrably private is inadmissable as art"

are all features I find completely accomplished in Bach's music (well, in most of the pre-romantic music).

An interesting link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Objectivity

Let me know if these concepts are too difficult to grasp.

[prémont]

Well, I understand the concepts, but I find them irrelevant in the context of Bach. Bach was a human being with human emotions, and if you make the effort, you can hear this very clearly in his music, which expresses exactly his emotions - in the same way as LvB´s music expresses his emotions. And to a large extent it is the same sort of emotions, only the wrapping ( = style) is different.

[Gabriel]

No...let me clarify

Beethoven was a great talent and a genius, and I credit his formal innovations that were vital in the evolution & renewal of form. And these formal developments opened new ground for subsequent composers - ones that I might even like ... LOL

Though im no real fan of his music and how it actually sounds, I was just stating facts in that other thread.

"Everything must change so that everything can remain the same"

So you enjoy the formal innovations, but not the substance of music?

I'd really love that you could accurately explain which formal innovations you enjoy in other composers as prefigured by Beethoven. And avoid the "ampliation of structures", because for that you could also mention Mozart, Haydn, Reicha, Cherubini, Schubert, Dusík, Vorísek and more of the same period.

[karlhenning]

Let me know if these concepts are too difficult to grasp.

Yes, yes, they are much too difficult to grasp. How very exceptionally intelligent you must be!

[Scriptavolant]

Well, I understand the concepts, but I find them irrelevant in the context of Bach. Bach was a human being with human emotions, and if you make the effort, you can hear this very clearly in his music, which expresses exactly his emotions - in the same way as LvB´s music expresses his emotions.

But as I've said no music is absolutely inexpressive. Not even Cage's Immaginary Landscape. This is not the point. The point is to consider how much importance is given to sentimental contents and formal problems, in different periods. Unlike you I don't believe music is nothing else but a depiction of emotions, so I try to consider other things. I don't think they're irrelevant, they're just part of this thing called musical expression. Each composer had to face the matter.
I'm much more inclined towards considering inane this "cult of emotion".

And to a large extent it is the same sort of emotions, only the wrapping ( = style) is different.

Quoting Larry:

The form of music is its content. And the content is its form.

[Scriptavolant]

How very exceptionally intelligent you must be!

O wonderful son, that can so astonish a mother!

[Gabriel]

No, I said..I 'credit' his innovations and was just stating facts.

So you don't enjoy them, just credit them, and enjoy them when applied by other composers.

So you credit which innovations? (Besides the "ampliation of structures", as I said; a long work is not necessarily better than a short one).

[karlhenning]

I mainly listen to music be moved quite frankly...

All right; and that's why so many of us love Beethoven's music.

[BachQ]

Easy choice.

For symphonies, piano concertos, piano sonatas, string quartets, piano trios and other chamber music --- Beethoven all the way.

For cantatas, oratorios, organ music, solo violin and cello sonatas and partitas, concertos for several instruments and orchestra --- Bach all the way.

I prefer Bach's symphonies to LvB's ........