Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[karlhenning]

I think Wagner's influence declined rapidly early in the 20th century as composers realised that big is not always beautiful.

Also, that even if Wagner believed that his was the "music of the future," most of what he was writing dated rapidly.  His pamphleteering aside, his music is the music of Wagner, and the future is wisest left to itself.

[Harry]

Goodmorning to you Karl.

[Haffner]

Wagner above Bach?! Seriously?

Please forgive me in advance, Hatter, but this doesn't entirely surprise me. I have been a great admirer of J.S. Bach's Brandenburg and Violin Concertos for over 23 years.


But my recent exploration of Wagner's "Ring..." has led me to the conclusion (admittedly subjective so again please forgive) that modern movies as a general rule wouldn't be what we know them as being today without Wagner. That may be a bad thing ( ).


Bach was an amazing composer, of course, a real Giant. I notice today, however, that (20 years after the "hair metal revolution" which actually boosted up Bach's mass appeal, believe it or not) my guitar students bring up the names Beethoven, Wagner, and Mozart more than Bach.



From a perspective outside of my little guitar world, Wagner seems to have impacted people in more myriad forms of artistic expression than Bach. I realize that assertion might be hard to swallow, but Wagner truly did influence Art in many different forms of its expression (I mean in the realms of cinema, stage, and to a lesser degree literature, etc.) whereas I don't think the same could be said in regard to Bach .

[Ten thumbs]

From a perspective outside of my little guitar world, Wagner seems to have impacted people in more myriad forms of artistic expression than Bach. I realize that assertion might be hard to swallow, but Wagner truly did influence Art in many different forms of its expression (I mean in the realms of cinema, stage, and to a lesser degree literature, etc.) whereas I don't think the same could be said in regard to Bach .

This may be true but I don't know whether or not you have sufficiently researched the inflence of Bach in other fields. However, this thread was specifically about the influences on music alone.

[Haffner]

This may be true but I don't know whether or not you have sufficiently researched the inflence of Bach in other fields. However, this thread was specifically about the influences on music alone.

I probably haven't done anywhere near the amount of study required to make a resolutely informed opinion, and I respect you for pointing that out.

[BachQ]

Love that quote, Luke!

The following - the introduction and conclusion of Schoenberg's essay Brahms the Progressive show precisely Schoenberg's conscious intent in this matter:

Quote from: Schoenberg: Brahms the Progressive
It is the purpose of this essay to prove that Brahms, the classicist, the academician, was a great innovator in the realm of musical language, that, in fact, he was a great progressive...His influence has already produced a further development of the musical language toward an unrestricted, though wellbalanced presentation of musical ideas.... an unrestricted musical language ... was inaugurated by Brahms the Progressive

[BachQ]

Also, that even if Wagner believed that his was the "music of the future," most of what he was writing dated rapidly.  His pamphleteering aside, his music is the music of Wagner, and the future is wisest left to itself.

Karl, we can only assume, then, that your compositions are utterly devoid of any Wagner influences?   

[BachQ]

I am of course referring to Medtner.

Well, it's entirely possible that your music can "sound" very much like another composer, even though that composer has had absolutely no influence on you . . . . . .

It's also possible that a composer has a subconscious (sub silentio) influence on you without you realizing or acknowledging it . . . . . .

A composer might detest Wagner (as a person) and refuse to acknowledge the influence (even though the influence is, in fact, everywhere present) . . . . ..

[quintett op.57]

A stravinsky might detest Vivaldi (as a composer) and refuse to acknowledge the influence (even though the influence is, in fact, present) . . . . ..

[lukeottevanger]

Listening to and reading score of Respighi's Violin Sonata right now - it has Brahms writ large all over it, as indeed the liner notes confess. But the writer and I must be mistaken, for lo, thus saith the OP's link, Brahms did not influence Respighi.

Edit - OMG, descending third chains a la Johannes holding the last movement together. This is getting ridiculous!

[david johnson]

the greatest influence would be the guys who came up with musical notation.

[Danny]

the greatest influence would be the guys who came up with musical notation.

Catholic monks?   0:)

      

[Haffner]

A composer might detest Wagner (as a person) and refuse to acknowledge the influence (even though the influence is, in fact, everywhere present) . . . . ..

I always felt that Israel's ban on Wagner was a great example of "refusing to acknowledge". Wagner's opinions on the Jews were stupid, destructive, and probably harmful. But I can't see that as being grounds enough to ban his works (some of the greatest works of Art in the Western repetoire).


I am part Jewish, but even I completely condemn this attitude.  I feel that the people of Israel were horribly cheated out of a set of works which were obviously enriching. Just because a person was most often a complete dunderdolt from hell is no reason to drop them from any repetoire.


Again, because I'm part Jewish I have no wish to downplay in any way the nightmare of racism. But there seem to have been alot of similarly dimwitted boobs whom thought in an anti-semitic way during that era. No excuse, but I wonder if Wagner adopted the dumb "when in Rome, do as the Romans" credo of the time.

[david johnson]

Catholic monks?   0:)

      

w/o notation we would not have heard the music we're discussing.
all hail the monkees.

[karlhenning]

A stravinsky might detest Vivaldi (as a composer) and refuse to acknowledge the influence (even though the influence is, in fact, present) . . . . ..

Oh, I think you are out of your text.  So where supposedly did Vivaldi influence Stravinsky? -- apart from any influence which was filtered through JS Bach.

[Guido]

I don't understand where they got the numbers from, and how they decided to include the composers that they did (in terms of who they influenced...). You could say that Beethoven was the most influential as he started the Romantic era. You could say that Guido d'Arezzo was because he invented musical notation. The numerical aspect just seems bizarre...)

I know I've come to this thread late, and I've only read half the responses, but would anyone care to elucidate?

[Haffner]

Oh, I think you are out of your text.  So where supposedly did Vivaldi influence Stravinsky? -- apart from any influence which was filtered through JS Bach.

Valid point. I'm curious as to the response as well.

[Steve]

Oh, I think you are out of your text.  So where supposedly did Vivaldi influence Stravinsky? -- apart from any influence which was filtered through JS Bach.

Agreed. Any influence there would be incredibly difficult to discern. As a violinist, I am personally aqauinted with the pieces for violin of both and I could never detect anything between them, except, pehaps for the influence of Corelli.

Which is an interesting point. I don't see Coreli or Paganini given deference here, which is strange considering the dramatic
each had on the develpment of the violin as a virtuoso instrument. Older composers, seem badly neglected here.

[BachQ]

Oh, I think you are out of your text.  So where supposedly did Vivaldi influence Stravinsky? -- apart from any influence which was filtered through JS Bach.

Karl, apparently you missed the memo: Vivaldi's Spring (fr Four Seasons) influenced Stravinsky's Rite of Spring . . . . . . 

[BachQ]

Excellent post, Egebedieff

The originality of new music is of primary importance to Schoenberg and he writes 'only that is worth being presented which has never before been presented.' Schoenberg's code is that great work of art must convey a new message to humanity: 'Art means new art'.[9]

Apparently, Schoenberg thought it was worth repackaging something which "has before been presented," namely, Brahms' op. 25 (piano quartet orchestrated by Schoenberg).

But seriously, Schoenberg was one of the most original voices in music, and obviously he consciously strove toward that explicit goal!