Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

[amw]

Interesting posts. Brahms is also not bittersweet, nostalgic or autumnal for me (at least in the broad sweep of it all). The issue I am sort of trying to integrate is how I think of emotions and music. I don't really think that most composers set out to evoke a particular emotion from us. But rather, we as listeners apply an emotion to the music as we feel it (though perhaps both are true).

Well music by itself is just a succession of sounds—all the emotion comes from the listener in the end.

I think part of the reason many listeners hear autumnal, nostalgic etc in Brahms (you hear wistfulness, which is similar) is due to the way he sets up and then frustrates expectations. This isn't really useful without examples so I'll use a piano trio.

This trio starts off with a steadily building melody, basically happy and contented, with a somewhat epic-heroic quality (in spite of the restrained dynamics). This takes about a minute and a half to reach its climax and is very satisfyingly formed.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br1.mp3[/audio]

Our expectation is that this melody will return at some point, possibly in triumph after a stormy development section—as Beethoven might have done. But when it comes back it's greatly abbreviated and the lines between phrases are no longer so clearly demarcated:
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br2.mp3[/audio]

The third and last time it appears, due to transposition to an upper octave and a slackening of tempo it seems to come from a great distance—like a faint memory of the earlier heroism. I definitely get a sense of longing from this passage. The movement very nearly seems to be coming to a stop in this nostalgic vein, before shaking it off for a (brief!) energetic conclusion, with somewhat of a sense of putting a brave face on things.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br3.mp3[/audio]

This is all subjective of course, but perhaps you can see where I'm coming from?

Some other "autumnalisms":

Suspensions (a stock trope for yearning)—listen to the accompaniment:
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br4.mp3[/audio]

Horn calls, the solitude of the forest, etc, etc, and modal mixture
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br5.mp3[/audio]

Of course, not every horn call in Brahms is an "autumnal" one, and not every suspension suggests the pining of unrequited love
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br6.mp3[/audio]

[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br7.mp3[/audio]

and he does sometimes give his heroic melodies the full Beethoven treatment—I think this may be one of the most exciting moments in Brahms, or possibly anyone.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br8.mp3[/audio]


I guess that for me there's really a whole range of emotions Brahms evokes—not just "autumnal" though that's one of them.

[mc ukrneal]

Well music by itself is just a succession of sounds—all the emotion comes from the listener in the end.

I think part of the reason many listeners hear autumnal, nostalgic etc in Brahms (you hear wistfulness, which is similar) is due to the way he sets up and then frustrates expectations. This isn't really useful without examples so I'll use a piano trio.

This trio starts off with a steadily building melody, basically happy and contented, with a somewhat epic-heroic quality (in spite of the restrained dynamics). This takes about a minute and a half to reach its climax and is very satisfyingly formed.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br1.mp3[/audio]

Our expectation is that this melody will return at some point, possibly in triumph after a stormy development section—as Beethoven might have done. But when it comes back it's greatly abbreviated and the lines between phrases are no longer so clearly demarcated:
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br2.mp3[/audio]

The third and last time it appears, due to transposition to an upper octave and a slackening of tempo it seems to come from a great distance—like a faint memory of the earlier heroism. I definitely get a sense of longing from this passage. The movement very nearly seems to be coming to a stop in this nostalgic vein, before shaking it off for a (brief!) energetic conclusion, with somewhat of a sense of putting a brave face on things.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br3.mp3[/audio]

This is all subjective of course, but perhaps you can see where I'm coming from?

Some other "autumnalisms":

Suspensions (a stock trope for yearning)—listen to the accompaniment:
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br4.mp3[/audio]

Horn calls, the solitude of the forest, etc, etc, and modal mixture
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br5.mp3[/audio]

Of course, not every horn call in Brahms is an "autumnal" one, and not every suspension suggests the pining of unrequited love
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br6.mp3[/audio]

[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br7.mp3[/audio]

and he does sometimes give his heroic melodies the full Beethoven treatment—I think this may be one of the most exciting moments in Brahms, or possibly anyone.
[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/br8.mp3[/audio]


I guess that for me there's really a whole range of emotions Brahms evokes—not just "autumnal" though that's one of them.

First of all, you've given us a very fine post.

And I do understand from the example what you mean. When I wrote my last response I was actually listening to this very piece, because I thought if any piece has it, it might be this one. But while I hear it more when you post the examples that way, it was not something I felt strongly the first time I listened.

[madaboutmahler]

Round 1 results to come this evening, apologies again for the delay.

Thank you to those who took on multiple groups towards the end, and to everyone for taking part! Round 2 shall be focusing on excerpts from the second and last movements.

And thank you again, as you have put most of my favourites through :p

[TheGSMoeller]

[crickets]

[Brian]

[crickets]

[TheGSMoeller]

Interesting choice of cat. Although it really is all about form.

[madaboutmahler]

So sorry these are so late everyone - it has been one hell of a week! Exams, concerts, Les mis productions, competitions, emotional drama....!!!!
But without further ado, here are the Round 1 results. The percentage is representative of the percentage of all votes the recording could have recieved.
Thank you for playing in the first round, Round 2 clips to be sent around very very soon. Excerpts of the starts to the 2nd and last movements.

Round 1 Results
Group A
8th - A3 Cleveland Orchestra/Maazel Decca. 0%

7th - A1 Berlin Philharmonic/Kempe 1957, Testament.  20%
[asin]B000003XKL[/asin]
6th - A8 London Symphony Orchestra/Weingartner EMI, 1940. 23%
[asin]B00000DRGI[/asin]
5th - A6 NDR Symphony Orchestra/Wand RCA, 1983. 33%
[asin]B000025TRY[/asin]

Group B
8th - B5 Concertgebouw/Mengelberg Naxos Historical, 1938. 17%
[asin]B00005QJFO[/asin]
7th - B8 Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Marriner Hanssler, 1998 20%
[asin]B0000269MB[/asin]
6th - B2 London Classical Players/Norrington EMI, 1993 30%

5th - B3 Munich Philharmonic/Celibidache EMI, 1999 33%
[asin]B00000JQI7[/asin]

Group C
8th - C5 Houston Symphony/Eschenbach Virgin Classics, 2002 20%
[asin]B001UDYC4Q[/asin]
7th - C6 Berlin Philharmonic/Rattle EMI, 2009 25%
[asin]B002AGIEYG[/asin]
6th - C2 Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra/Kubelik Orfeo,1983 33%
[asin]B000028AXH[/asin]
5th - C4 Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique/Gardiner Soli Deo Gloria/2009 38%
[asin]B001O8C5FU[/asin]

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks, Daniel. 
My favs are still alive!

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks, Daniel. 
My favs are still alive!

Three out of four of my favorites are gone (par for the comparison course  ) ...plus Norrington, which has really grown on me the last week. I'm failing miserably!

Sarge

[Brian]

Three out of four of my favorites are gone (par for the comparison course  ) ...plus Norrington, which has really grown on me the last week. I'm failing miserably!

Sarge

The Celimination has me well and truly irked. Also surprised at the fate of Kubelik.

[mc ukrneal]

I did not listen to it, but I am surprised to see Gardiner gone - I see lots of positive comments on his cycle. The other one that I would not have expected is the Wand - his Brahms cycle gets good comments too.

[Brian]

The Celimination has me well and truly irked. Also surprised at the fate of Kubelik.

Okay - I just looked through my blind comparison notes. Almost all my favorites were eliminated! I was especially fond of Kubelik, Kempe, and Celibidache, with Kubelik and Celi earning my highest ratings. And they're gone. Something tells me that in the final round, I will be the cranky asshole who downvotes all five recordings.

[TheGSMoeller]

I did not listen to it, but I am surprised to see Gardiner gone - I see lots of positive comments on his cycle. The other one that I would not have expected is the Wand - his Brahms cycle gets good comments too.

I love the Gardiner cycle, their 4th is quickly becoming one of my top choices. And I really like hearing Brahms' symphonies with the reduced strings, and with the separated violins. But if there is one of the four that I prefer the lushness of more strings it would be the 2nd, mostly for the first movement.

[Sergeant Rock]

B5, Mengelberg! Of course. Should have guessed. I liked it: "A good balance between lovingly phrased beauty and intense drama." I may just have to get that box I've been eyeing (if the Brahms is included).

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

The Celimination has me well and truly irked.

Yeah, that hurts.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Something tells me that in the final round, I will be the cranky asshole

      ...can't wait to meet him 

I've had better luck: Except for Celi, my mystery favorites are still in the running: B1, A2, A5.

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks, Daniel. 
My favs are still alive!

Actually I misspoke. My favorite from group C was in fact C4/Gardiner which was eliminated. My B4 is still alive, but my two favorite choices of Brahms 2 have not been eliminated, I didn't hear group A so I'm hoping one of them is in there.

[NorthNYMark]

Among those eliminated, the Gardiner, Kempe, and Eschenbach were among my favorites.  But my single favorite so far, A2, is still in the running.  I'm amused by my initial description of what turned out to be Rattle--I listed a number of qualities I liked, but downgraded it because it just didn't engage me emotionally.  This has often been my reaction to Rattle's work.

[amw]

Hmm, I should have done B, maybe I could have saved Celi. (Or maybe not.)

So Wand and Kubelik are my classical, "introductory" picks... hmm. This leaves my "weird" ones (A5, A7, C7) still in the running. And C8 of course, which seems to have sufficiently broad appeal that it could win the whole thing. And then mad will reveal that it's an incredibly rare bootleg of a 1943 live performance in Belarus, never issued on CD and long out of print on LP, and everyone will be sad, but also smug that we picked such an obscure and non-mainstream performance.

I'm surprised Jeggers was the one I disliked, he seems to get really good reviews. And I expected period style performances to be faster and sound crisper, somehow. Oh well.

[Brian]

But my single favorite so far, A2, is still in the running.

With so many great readings eliminated, I'm starting to think A2 could win this ballgame. It might not be deserving (sorry, just grumpy that most of my favorites got crossed out), but it is very very good.