UKIP Idiocy

[North Star]

Problems exist, and especially during these times when the economy isn't doing well, anti-immigration politicians get votes even if they're full of it. Finland needs immigrants and they aren't really a problem, except to them who worry they use our health care and social services, when actually immigrants tend to use the services less than the natives.

Of course, Nordic countries are far from France, in many ways. Minnesota vs. Texas..

[Todd]

It's an objection based on a moral judgment. If at age 70 you immigrate to a new country and collect welfare that can be reasonably seen  as unfair.

A relatively small number of old people receiving meager benefits hardly seems to be a major concern, nor does it offer much of a moral argument; such people would not qualify for benefits such as social security, or other programs structured similarly, since they paid nothing into the system, but they would or at least should qualify for medical treatment since that is the morally right thing to do.  Besides, generally speaking, it is not the elderly who emigrate, unless you have some statistical evidence that shows the impoverished elderly make up a meaningful portion of global, non-refugee population movement.  Most arguments center around younger people, their children, etc. 

Mass immigration can cause cultural problems, and it's wrong to airily dismiss that as blanket xenophobia.

It is not at all wrong to dismiss the concerns as informed significantly by, and almost certainly predominantly by, xenophobia and racism, because those are two of the fundamental, underlying reasons for opposing immigration.  Attempting to preserve something as nebulous and malleable as "culture" strikes me as almost pointless since past immigration, in all countries, helped form current culture, current immigration is not significant enough to fundamentally alter it in the near term or medium term, and part of what immigrants seek is to be a part of a new culture.  Such dismissals are also not at all airy, given how shabbily some immigrants are treated.

Finland needs immigrants and they aren't really a problem, except to them who worry they use our health care and social services, when actually immigrants tend to use the services less than the natives.

This is similar to a big concern in the US about how illegal immigrants engage in criminal behavior other than illegally coming to this country.  Evidence from local and federal law enforcement agencies show that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit other crimes than both legal immigrants and native born citizens.

[snyprrr]

A relatively small number of old people receiving meager benefits hardly seems to be a major concern, nor does it offer much of a moral argument; such people would not qualify for benefits such as social security, or other programs structured similarly, since they paid nothing into the system, but they would or at least should qualify for medical treatment since that is the morally right thing to do.  Besides, generally speaking, it is not the elderly who emigrate, unless you have some statistical evidence that shows the impoverished elderly make up a meaningful portion of global, non-refugee population movement.  Most arguments center around younger people, their children, etc. 




It is not at all wrong to dismiss the concerns as informed significantly by, and almost certainly predominantly by, xenophobia and racism, because those are two of the fundamental, underlying reasons for opposing immigration.  Attempting to preserve something as nebulous and malleable as "culture" strikes me as almost pointless since past immigration, in all countries, helped form current culture, current immigration is not significant enough to fundamentally alter it in the near term or medium term, and part of what immigrants seek is to be a part of a new culture.  Such dismissals are also not at all airy, given how shabbily some immigrants are treated.




This is similar to a big concern in the US about how illegal immigrants engage in criminal behavior other than illegally coming to this country.  Evidence from local and federal law enforcement agencies show that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit other crimes than both legal immigrants and native born citizens.

BULLSHIT!!

Go up tell it on the mountains of Israel! of Somalia...

Give us your Nigerian web scammers

And your Mexican landscaper


Right, so, we ALL "came from Africa", right? So,just like the "Israelis" I can just go back to Africa and claim it as my heritage right?



AP;March 31, 2014

"The White Ghettos of Ghana"

    Ever since Ghana opened up their immigration policy, lots of poor white trash from the Eastern seaboard of the United States has been flooding this African nation- people who couldn't get jobs in the US, and were considered outcasts,... refugees if you will- and the government of Ghana has welcomed them with open arms. Housing and welfare has been provided, but, because all this poor white trash is inherently inbred, they've all become a drug addicted drain on the community, living in welfare ghettos that have become filthy with neglect.

   The Ghanan... Ghanese if you will... have granted all this poor white trash the right to vote, and locals fear that they may hear a Kenny Chesney song in the near future. Locals also say that this new culture has nothing to offer this country of rich history, and they don't know why their leaders are forcing this alien- and some would say incompatible- culture onto theirs.

The local women of Ghana- almost 26% of them- are in fear of being raped by a non-African poor white trash man with a weak moustache and chin hair wearing overalls and sucking on a straw. But officials are loathe to do anything, saying, "It's just what they do. Don't be a racist."

[snyprrr]

Trotsky Invented 'Racism'

http://search.comcast.net/?cat=web&con=beta&q=trotsky%20came%20up%20with%20racist

[Todd]

I can just go back to Africa and claim it as my heritage right?

You might run into difficulties attempting to emigrate anywhere.

[Ken B]

Todd:

Such dismissals are also not at all airy, given how shabbily some immigrants are treated.

Just so you realize that's a wild non-sequitur, right? Some of your points are good, but that is a complete non-sequitur.

[kishnevi]

Trotsky Invented 'Racism'

http://search.comcast.net/?cat=web&con=beta&q=trotsky%20came%20up%20with%20racist

He may have invented the term.  The phenomenon existed a long time before him.  Indeed,  one of the reasons Trotsky was Trotsky was the racist practices Russian inflicted on its Jewish inhabitants.

I live near near Dearborn, the most muslim part of North America, and we never see car burnings or the sort of stuff you see in France.

You might want to tell that to Pamela Geller.  Not that it will help.  There is a term for a Jew whose rhetoric of attack on Islam relies heavily on paraphrases of Nazi attacks on Jews, and it's not a pretty one.

[kishnevi]

BTW, has anyone noticed the underlying irony  here; that the xenophobic parties have gained their victories not in national elections, but in a transnational election for the EU Parliament?

[Todd]

BTW, has anyone noticed the underlying irony  here; that the xenophobic parties have gained their victories not in national elections, but in a transnational election for the EU Parliament?

As The Economist noted, electing a right-wing, anti-EU politician as an MEP is one thing, electing the same type of politician as an MP is something else.  Voters may be sending a message.

[Ken B]

He may have invented the term.  The phenomenon existed a long time before him.  Indeed,  one of the reasons Trotsky was Trotsky was the racist practices Russian inflicted on its Jewish inhabitants.

You might want to tell that to Pamela Geller.  Not that it will help.  There is a term for a Jew whose rhetoric of attack on Islam relies heavily on paraphrases of Nazi attacks on Jews, and it's not a pretty one.

Geller is a bit ... tetched. Let's stick with that.
There have been a few incidents here where the police and the city have been clearly guilty of harassing Christian groups, and one of those Koran burners, and a few other signs of political favoitism. And there have been some cases of funding terror groups. So it's not that there haven't been a few incidents. But that's fringe stuff. There is absolutely no way that you call this area Dearbornistan as I have heard her do, to suggest anti-assimilation.

[Ken B]

As The Economist noted, electing a right-wing, anti-EU politician as an MEP is one thing, electing the same type of politician as an MP is something else.  Voters may be sending a message.

Yes. It's a frustration vote, at least in the UK. I have a hard time getting past the LePen name I confess.

[kishnevi]

Geller is a bit ... tetched. Let's stick with that.
There have been a few incidents here where the police and the city have been clearly guilty of harassing Christian groups, and one of those Koran burners, and a few other signs of political favoitism. And there have been some cases of funding terror groups. So it's not that there haven't been a few incidents. But that's fringe stuff. There is absolutely no way that you call this area Dearbornistan as I have heard her do, to suggest anti-assimilation.

I have a coworker who is a Muslim women from Bengal.  Her family name is, interestingly enough, Shaheed.   She's serious about Islam,  but there's no fanaticism about her.  No burqas in her family!   And I've found over time that I, as a Jew, have a good deal culturally more in common with her than I do with my American born Christian co-workers.   Muslims are supposed to pray just before it gets totally dark,  Jew just after--but having discussed the differences in timing, we now just mention that it's time to go pray, and no further explanation is needed of what is for both of us a basic behavior.  Whereas Christians require a long explanation.....   Being a woman of great tact and discretion, she has never brought up the subject of Israel vs. Palestinians,  and I never seen a reason to mention it either.

[Florestan]

I thought you said the socialists won?

Ha ha! Good one! 

Seriously now, the Romanian Socialists are extreme only in shamelessness, incompetency and authoritarianism. 

[Ken B]

Ha ha! Good one! 

Seriously now, the Romanian Socialists are extreme only in shamelessness, incompetency and authoritarianism. 

So may I take it you support socialism skillfully done?

[Florestan]

So may I take it you support socialism skillfully done?

I don't support socialism at all, be it skilful or incompetent. 

[Ken B]

I don't support socialism at all, be it skilful or incompetent. 

purr purr

[North Star]

I don't support socialism at all, be it skilful or incompetent. 

You'd hate the socialist utopia even if it worked??

[Ken B]

You'd hate the socialist utopia even if it worked??

I hate square circles. Seven-sided penatagons too, now I think about it.

[North Star]

I hate square circles. Seven-sided penatagons too, now I think about it.

So, if you found one of either, you'd destroy it instead of showing it to others?

[ibanezmonster]

So, if you found one of either, you'd destroy it instead of showing it to others?

I'm sure MC Escher discovered those, but never revealed them to the public.