How does one have time to explore?

[Madiel]

Here's my personal story.

From the 7th grade up to the second year in University I listened to nothing but classical music. I was even sort of a snob and professed only disdain not only for any other genre, with the exception of jazz, but also for their fans.

Then I accidentally discovered heavy metal, and it's a fun story. My neighbor from the floor just below me was a big death metal fan and listened to it with the volume turned uppermost. Of course, those barks and yellings pissed me off big time and I asked one of my colleagues in the University, whom I knew to be a big rock music fan, how can one enjoy such barbaric noise. Oh, he replied, I don't like that genre either, but if you want something really good, try Metallica. I did, with the result of turning instantly into a heavy metal / hard rock fan. Not that I gave up classical music, but now my listening sessions mixed Beethoven and Metallica, Mozart and Slayer, Brahms and Manowar aso. I was even growing my hair long and wearing army boots and heavy-metal-themed t-shirts. I still have Metallica and Manowar's complete discography in my shelves (okay, back row tbh).

It all lasted a few years and then it went away just as suddenly as it came. There came the day when listening to a whole heavy metal album became boring; then there came the day when I did not feel the need to listen to the music at all; and finally there came the day when I placed all my heavy metal CDs in the back row of my shelves. I haven't played a single one of them ever since. Now, if you ask me why, I can't answer. I don't know. It just so happened.

As for popular music in all its genres, my snoberry softened a lot with the passing of time and I have listened to a lot of them, on CD or on radio. I can't say I dislike it, but I can't say I like it either. As background music, especially when I drive, is perfect and I actually prefer it to classical music in that circumstance. But, and that sums it up, it is my feeling and conviction that had I not listened to any popular music whatsoever in my whole life I wouldn't have lost anything of value or importance, while I can't imagine my life without Schubert, Mozart or Brahms.

That's it. Of course, it is just my personal experience and it says a lot about me and nothing at all about the quality, or lack thereof, of popular music.

Well, if you feel that several years of your own enjoyment was not 'anything of value or importance', you're free to think that. Personally I've never really understood the proposition that, because I wouldn't enjoy an experience now, somehow the fact that I enjoyed it at the time is negated.

[Florestan]

Well, if you feel that several years of your own enjoyment was not 'anything of value or importance', you're free to think that. Personally I've never really understood the proposition that, because I wouldn't enjoy an experience now, somehow the fact that I enjoyed it at the time is negated.

Enjoyment is one thing, value or importance for one's life quite another. 

[Madiel]

Enjoyment is one thing, value or importance for one's life quite another. 

If you think that the music of Brahms has intrinsic value to your life beyond its capacity to bring you enjoyment, you've lost me. I've yet to find another use for it besides the fact that I really, really like listening to it.

[mn dave]

If you think that the music of Brahms has intrinsic value to your life beyond its capacity to bring you enjoyment, you've lost me. I've yet to find another use for it besides the fact that I really, really like listening to it.

I know it's only barcarolle...

[Ken B]

If you think that the music of Brahms has intrinsic value to your life beyond its capacity to bring you enjoyment, you've lost me. I've yet to find another use for it besides the fact that I really, really like listening to it.

And because you can find or imagine no other source of value, it follows that neither may Florestan. Thanks for clarifying.

[Madiel]

And because you can find or imagine no other source of value, it follows that neither may Florestan. Thanks for clarifying.

You're incredibly good at imagining I've said things that I haven't. That's about the third time this page.

[Ken B]

You're incredibly good at imagining I've said things that I haven't. That's about the third time this page.

Didn't you imagine people saying that popular music was uniform and dull?
Now imagine that I say that in terms of composition technique and subject matter the paintings of Rembrandt much more uniform and less varied than the entire history of Italian art from the year 900 to the year 2000.  You conclude I called Rembrandt uniform and dull. See the problem?

[Madiel]

Didn't you imagine people saying that popular music was uniform and dull?
Now imagine that I say that in terms of composition technique and subject matter the paintings of Rembrandt much more uniform and less varied than the entire history of Italian art from the year 900 to the year 2000.  You conclude I called Rembrandt uniform and dull. See the problem?

Yes. I see the problem in comparing art "from the year 900 to the year 2000" with what was actually said, which was that all of pop music was less varied than the 16 string quartets of Beethoven.

Jesus H Christ. It's like you don't read the damn thread.

[Ken B]

Yes. I see the problem in comparing art "from the year 900 to the year 2000" with what was actually said, which was that all of pop music was less varied than the 16 string quartets of Beethoven.

Jesus H Christ. It's like you don't read the damn thread.

I don't recall mentioning Beethoven. Someone else did. You have ascribed views to people they don't hold. Several of us have pointed this out. And no-one ever said uniform and dull. We made the point I just made with Rembrandt.

[Madiel]

I don't recall mentioning Beethoven. Someone else did.

I KNOW! I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID IT! WHY THE BLOODY HELL DON'T YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I SAY INSTEAD OF ADDING AN EXTRA THREE SENTENCES TO IT IN YOUR HEAD? WHERE THE HELL DID I EVER MENTION YOUR NAME?

[Ken B]

I KNOW! I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID IT! WHY THE BLOODY HELL DON'T YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I SAY INSTEAD OF ADDING AN EXTRA THREE SENTENCES TO IT IN YOUR HEAD? WHERE THE HELL DID I EVER MENTION YOUR NAME?

So when you said "all those posts" you meant ... one post?

[71 dB]

Yóur reasoning is deeply flawed. Let's use an analogy to prove it.

I have been digging in this gold mine for 25 years. I found in it about 10 main leads which, every single time I digged them, were full of pure, solid gold. There are also dozens of smaller leads and hundreds of minor ones, but each and every one of them contains gold, not as pure as the main ones but gold nevertheless. There was not even a single time that I went out from this mine without any gold whatsoever.

Then there is the other mine, from which I extracted every now and then some gold, but nowhere near as pure as even the least pure of the first mine, and from which I came out more often than not my hands empty .

Now, you come and tell me to go deeper and more often in the second mine because there is solid gold there too.

Not quite logical, isn't it? 

All you prove here is gold is all you can think of. Silver? Diamonds? Oil? You won't find those in your 10 main leads. Nice try.

[Madiel]

I give up. This is utterly pointless. I wasn't even talking to you, Ken, and you decide to reinsert yourself into the conversation and behave as if the only 2 people involved in the discussion are you and I.

I hate to break it to you, but you are not the centre of my universe.

You've completely ignored the post I was actually quoting at the top of the page when I objected to the characterisation of pop music as uniform (so uniform that one can supposedly exchange vocal and instrumental parts from different songs), you've decided that 60 years of culture across the globe makes no difference (which has absolutely nothing to do with whether 1100 years is MORE varied), you in fact can't apparently grasp that there is any form of popular music outside America, nor can you grasp that talking about 1100 years after I've talked about 60 years cannot possibly mean that I'm comparing 60 years to 1100 years, you think that saying "you've lost me" means the same thing as "you're wrong", and you apparently think that comparing single artists to entire genres only makes sense when YOU do it.

I've seen you be obtusely belligerent with other posters in the past, but little did I suspect you would waltz in, decide you didn't like the word snob (which was a quote, for God's sake), and then spend your day reading absolutely everything as if I was saying nasty things about classical music when the entire point of all my contributions for over a page has been to say how utterly stupid it is to try to elevate one form of music by tearing down another.

Enjoy the argument you're winning in your head. I'm sick of it. Goodnight.

[71 dB]

Who? I don't think of her as folk, but rather pop.

Yeah, I don't blame you for that. Carly Simon's music combines many styles. Her roots are in folk I believe and her early stuff is more of that.

Have you heard this song, "How Can You Ever Forget"? It's my favorite new tune by her since the '80s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-spUnXtFQ

I have all of her studio albums so yes, I know it.

My other relatively recent favorite CD is Moonlight Serenade

Nice CD indeed, but I tend to prefer her own songs over these "evergreen standards". 'Memorial Day' from album Spy is perhaps my favorite Carly Simon track.

[Florestan]

If you think that the music of Brahms has intrinsic value to your life beyond its capacity to bring you enjoyment, you've lost me. I've yet to find another use for it besides the fact that I really, really like listening to it.

At about the same time I enjoyed heavy metal I also enjoyed all-night-long drinking sprees and watching porn.  Did they add value to, or were they important for, my life? Absolutely not. The same goes for heavy metal. I don't deny my enjoying it then, I just don't feel it was something essential for my life.

[Madiel]

That appears to answer the exact opposite question to the one I asked. I didn't ask why heavy metal music didn't mean more. I asked how Brahms etc DID mean more.

EDIT: and please note, I'm not interested in a comparison between different music to state why one is better. I've spent several pages avoiding comparisons of that nature, although Karl seems to be the only person to grasp this. I don't care whether your favourite music is Bach or Schubert or the Beatles or Megadeth. WHATEVER your favourite music is, the question was how your favourite music has greater value beyond the fact that it gives you a high degree of enjoyment.

[Jay F]

That appears to answer the exact opposite question to the one I asked. I didn't ask why heavy metal music didn't mean more. I asked how Brahms etc DID mean more.

Brahms has never meant more than the Kinks to me. I've listened to nothing but the Kinks this morning, something I don't often do with Brahms.

[ibanezmonster]

WHATEVER your favourite music is, the question was how your favourite music has greater value beyond the fact that it gives you a high degree of enjoyment.

Don't know about the non-musicians, but for musicians there can be a ton of value because of the musical ideas you wouldn't have thought of if that composer hadn't existed.

[Madiel]

Don't know about the non-musicians, but for musicians there can be a ton of value because of the musical ideas you wouldn't have thought of if that composer hadn't existed.

Yes, that makes sense.

I'll have to wait until Florestan comes back to find out whether he was referring to performing music or composing. I had understood him to be referring only to listening to music. I certainly agree that if one is involved in the creation of music, one learns from the music of others.

[Ken B]

Simple. Art music (prefer this term to "classical") offers a lot more in terms of the art-form and it has been around a lot longer & evolved much longer, so more time is necessary.  It's broader & deeper in all aspects of musical art. It offers the best that is available.. and it is so much more engaging (requires more on our part etc.) & nourishing. I haven't ignored entertainment music, or pop music (and all it's stylistic cliches & boxes etc.) either, its fun, easy to digest, and was a bigger part of my youth  .. its just that once your curiosity & hunger take you along, and you make the leap & delve deep into Art music and forge a relationship with it, pop music doesn't really compare, it is so impoverished in comparison. I have a much, much deeper and richer appreciation & experience with music as a whole as a result of spending so much time with "classical music". I have had a better life because of this relationship.

I was pretty sure when James weighed in on this I'd end up agreeing strongly. I do.