The Men's Rights Movement

[ibanezmonster]

You wonder, good. Read on, ye wondering guy, and the truth shall set you free. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/23/us/gender-gaps-stanford-94.html

Okay, this was reaaaaally long. I skimmed over much of it to save time. Ok, so the Paypal guy had trouble hiring women because he was a nerd who isn't comfortable interacting with women? Ok...

Yeah, 'cos working a computer is such a manly endeavour, why would women even think about getting near such a masculine device.

Umm... auto mechanics? Construction?
No, working on a computer isn't a dirty, "masculine" job, but guys usually tend to be into that sort of thing more for some reason (observations from all of the men and women I've known). My CS classes have also been majority male in my area (though at university not quite a huge majority), but do you really think females aren't taking computer classes because they fear some sort of discrimination? I've never seen any of that in my classes. Everyone treats everyone else pretty well, like normal people.

I have noticed the bias that relates to 'women are wonderful' in the case of celebrities making guest appearances on television. Ladies are generally described as 'the wonderful', whereas men have to put up with 'the great'. It is interesting that, even in this day and age, it is very rare for any woman to be allowed the appellation 'great'.

So "great" that it's perfectly okay for a bunch of women to joke about a guy's penis being chopped off and shredded in the garbage disposal, while the reverse would never happen?

So women who try to become civil servants or police in Indonesia have been subjected to "virginity tests" in which recruits are violated. The government seems to be passing it off as a legitimate physical exam, which either insults everybody's intelligence, or reveals their own lack of such.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/19/world/asia/indonesia-police-recruits-virginity-test/

Yeah, it's so easy for women these days, right? So much has changed. Silly feminists complaining about nothing.

Um, we're talking about the West, not Indonesia.

Ever read accounts from women who try to get in to the video game field? Some of it ain't pretty.

Better to not get in that field for anyone, unless you're okay with working 80-100 hours a week forever. That's why I chose not to get into it.

And if you wonder why it's such a male dominated field... it's 80-100 hours a week. The traditional roles still remain somewhat- if people want kids, more often women want to be the primary caretaker rather than man, and 80-100 hours a week just won't cut it. At least with a 40 hour a week full time job, you can see your kids.

[amw]

I wonder why they are still acting like they aren't allowed to use computers?

Culture.

Specifically "geek culture" though that's sort of an oxymoron. IT has been from the start dominated by people whose worldviews were formed not by actually talking to people but by reading genre fiction (SF/fantasy), watching movies and (later on) playing video/tabletop games—i.e. by mass market lowest common denominator pop culture created and marketed by, and thus designed to reinforce, existing hegemonic power structures. These people (self-identified geeks/nerds/etc) tend to be highly racist, sexist, entitled etc due to that media's focus on genetic determination (e.g. "beautiful people are always good, unless they're TOO beautiful, then they're evil") and one-sided, essentialist portrayal of gender relations (e.g. men are the basic, generic, disposable template, women are a special variety that always want babies). The race and entitlement things (not to mention the homo/transphobia, though there's a lot less of it these days) are different issues I'm not going to get into right now; with gender, when women come into the equation, they're coming into contact with men who from early on have been repeatedly told the following contradictory things:
1. Women are special, bizarre creatures, making up about 10% of the world's population, whose desires and thoughts are unknowable by men.
2. Women are a variation of men with less technical competence and physical strength but a deeper and more intuitive understanding of emotion and social skills.
3. Men with poor social skills (such as you, the viewer) deserve, and will eventually get, a woman. Women's lives ultimately revolve around men.
So if you're a woman who's been raised and buys into this sort of pop culture, of course you're not going to get a job in computers, that's men's work. And if you're a woman who rejects this sort of culture, well, those are the people you're going to have to be working with. Not really a surprise that you'll give up on the field after a few years, if your male colleagues don't reject you for disrupting the social balance (due to being a woman and thus weird and different).

Of course the number of women going into IT has increased sharply in the last 3-4 years... partly due to the assimilation and decline of geek culture as an independent entity. And apparently they're receiving a massive amount of harassment from male geeks trying to "defend" their mentality from "social justice warriors" (whatever that means—I don't know or care). Stories filter down: rape threats, personal information being leaked, those random misogynistic image macros -abe- likes to post. Even the ones claiming to object to that sort of thing circling the wagons whenever someone brings it up. One could be forgiven for believing that kind of behaviour to be endemic to the technology-related fields.

Where this kind of culture doesn't exist, the other upper-class high-education fields are much closer to gender parity: medicine, law, classical music, etc. Not finance, for some reason. But upper-class women have always had a lot of options, so I wouldn't say this is a "quick turnaround" as Jo498 seems to think. Being from a social station that expects higher education and a degree of cultural sophistication can overcome a lot of other obstacles. For instance, an upper-class, highly educated black man can become president of the United States. This doesn't change the fact that a smaller percentage of black men than white men have access to that level of class and education, and black men are overall more disadvantaged. Similarly, upper-class educated women can become lots of upper-class things, politicians, astronauts, scientists, whatever (even if in a few cases the men already in the field have banded together to create a "boys' club" for some reason, see my IT explanation above). But for blue-collar, lower-class women things haven't changed that much regarding access to education and choice of technical fields. The old prejudices are alive and well. Thus you don't see a lot of women becoming electricians or plumbers or truck drivers or whatever. I don't know what whoever it was said that femaleness is not an inheritable disadvantage was smoking; the prejudice is no different.

That was way too long and well-thought-out a post for this thread. Hmm.

[TRIGGER WARNING] cis-heteronormative PATRIARCHY oppressing privilege white rapeculture othering [flagged] mansplaining WoC APPROPRIATION

Yeah, that should do it.

[Purusha]

That's in impressive parody.

[ibanezmonster]

That's in impressive parody.

Indeed.

These people (self-identified geeks/nerds/etc) tend to be highly racist, sexist, entitled

Assuming the post wasn't actually a parody...

Lol. Seriously? You're speaking on a forum where probably every one of us would be considered a geek due to the sheer fact that we like classical music. And what percentage of us is racist, sexist or entitled? I probably befriend more "geeks/nerds" than others, and I've never seen any element of racism/sexism, etc. (You might find a little more of that in the redneck or jock crowd). And yes, a good percentage of my "geek" friends throughout my life are black, so I'm not sure how that fits into being highly racist.

[amw]

Lol. Seriously? You're speaking on a forum where probably every one of us would be considered a geek due to the sheer fact that we like classical music.

Not really. Classical music culture has its own problems to be sure, but I've seen very little overlap—mostly in people who are way too into hi-fi stuff. Most classical music fans seem to come from an arts background, STEMmies are the exception.

And what percentage of us is racist, sexist or entitled?

On this forum? I'd seriously say about 50-60%. Lots of people are way too into the "great art transcends everything! It just all happens to be made by dead white men from the 18th and 19th centuries" shtick

I probably befriend more "geeks/nerds" than others

I'm not surprised by that.

and I've never seen any element of racism/sexism, etc.

or that.

My impressions come from (a) talking to women who've worked/tried to work in STEM and particularly IT; (b) attempting to be friends with geeks/nerds, under the impression that I was like them because I'd read lots of Asimov/Heinlein/LeGuin etc as a kid. Turns out it's not what you read, but whether you respond to it critically... or spend any time, you know, not reading and instead make friends with human people outside in the world. Otherwise you end up being raised by pop culture and that's the result.

Post was 100% serious by the way. I'm not sure I'm going to participate here much further—despite appearances, I'm not obsessed with proving people wrong—just hoping someone literate may see it and have a think.

[Ken B]

Not really. Classical music culture has its own problems to be sure, but I've seen very little overlap—mostly in people who are way too into hi-fi stuff. Most classical music fans seem to come from an arts background, STEMmies are the exception.
On this forum? I'd seriously say about 50-60%. Lots of people are way too into the "great art transcends everything! It just all happens to be made by dead white men from the 18th and 19th centuries" shtick
I'm not surprised by that. or that.

My impressions come from (a) talking to women who've worked/tried to work in STEM and particularly IT; (b) attempting to be friends with geeks/nerds, under the impression that I was like them because I'd read lots of Asimov/Heinlein/LeGuin etc as a kid. Turns out it's not what you read, but whether you respond to it critically... or spend any time, you know, not reading and instead make friends with human people outside in the world. Otherwise you end up being raised by pop culture and that's the result.

Post was 100% serious by the way. I'm not sure I'm going to participate here much further—despite appearances, I'm not obsessed with proving people wrong—just hoping someone literate may see it and have a think.

My impressions have formed by BEING in IT and STEM longer than John has been alive.

My boss is a woman. Most of my bosses have been, as long as I have lived in the USA. When I had 3 bosses they were all women. My coworkers are mostly non-white. On my team there are at least 5 different religions.  Here's the plain fact. People in IT, at least in the USA, care if you can do the job. There is almost no sexism or racism. If  you can't get along you can't survive in IT. Period.  Bigots are few and if there are any, they keep it to themself.

[ibanezmonster]

On this forum? I'd seriously say about 50-60%. Lots of people are way too into the "great art transcends everything! It just all happens to be made by dead white men from the 18th and 19th centuries" shtick
I'm not surprised by that. or that.

And there you have it. The feminist delusion.

[The Six]

Um, we're talking about the West, not Indonesia.

Um, well now I brought it up. And since you seem to have a problem with feminists - those are the kinds of issues feminists bring up.

Better to not get in that field for anyone, unless you're okay with working 80-100 hours a week forever. That's why I chose not to get into it.

And if you wonder why it's such a male dominated field... it's 80-100 hours a week. The traditional roles still remain somewhat- if people want kids, more often women want to be the primary caretaker rather than man, and 80-100 hours a week just won't cut it. At least with a 40 hour a week full time job, you can see your kids.

Oh really? More women aren't in video games because they can't work those long, hard hours?  It's not because of harassment? Or threats? Or online stalkers? Have you actually spoken to a woman about any of these things, or is this just more conjecture?

[Ken B]

Um, well now I brought it up. And since you seem to have a problem with feminists - those are the kinds of issues feminists bring up.

No, these are just the sort of issues feminists almost never bring up, because it means criticizing non-Western muslims. Thousands of ranrs about rape culture and no discussion of ISIS or the taliban.


As for video games ...
Threats against women who write video game software? Put down that compiler or die! Too funny.

[Purusha]

I have noticed the bias that relates to 'women are wonderful' in the case of celebrities making guest appearances on television. Ladies are generally described as 'the wonderful', whereas men have to put up with 'the great'. It is interesting that, even in this day and age, it is very rare for any woman to be allowed the appellation 'great'.

There is an eastern saying which goes something along the lines that women are intelligent by means of their beauty, while men are beautiful by means of their intelligence.

It is interesting to point out that in the ancient world femininity was often synonymous with wisdom, but that is because they understood beauty in an higher sense. To me, women are the veritable embodiment of wisdom. While men are able to conjure wisdom with their minds, women are wisdom. It is the essence of their being, and women are beautiful the same way, say, late Beethoven is beautiful.

None of this has anything to do with greatness, which historically is a very late idea and seems to be the result of an ill conceived attempt at giving wisdom an "heroic" connotation. Wise men aren't really heroes, they are essentially mere vessels of something that is greater than themselves. And the root of wisdom is contemplation, not action, which makes this entire notion of genius fundamentally flawed. Before the Renaissance, there was no such thing as geniuses, there were wise men and heroes, and every wise man had his muse, while every hero had his lady.

[Purusha]

Thousands of ranrs about rape culture and no discussion of ISIS or the taliban.

Or what happened at Rotherham. People often speak of PC culture going amok. Oftentimes, this is an exaggeration, but in this case this is true to a frightening degree. The problem of "social justice" is that it lost its original meaning and has become something like a religion, with its own dogmas and its own inquisition.  And what happened to Matt Taylor was quite literally a which hunt. There is no other way to describe it. His sin was that of heresy, plain and simple.

[Purusha]

BTW, in lieu of what i just said regarding the exalted status of femininity in former eras, this article dealing with Nikola Tesla and his desire to remain a bachelor is quite illuminating:

http://www.returnofkings.com/43036/nikola-tesla-explains-why-he-never-married

His apocalyptic predictions are quite exaggerated but the essence of his argument is nonetheless fascinating. By trying to become like men, women lost that which made them truly great , and by extension, they robbed men of their greatness also.

With all this said, the comments below that article also show how much MRAs went wrong as well. Particularly vulgar to me is the notion that the purpose of sexuality is to "pass on one's genes", or other such nonsense. Actually, this seems to be more of a problem with those who have bought into this "game" nonsense than the average MRA, who seems to be more concerned about the excesses of what is known as "third wave" feminism. This is shown by the fact many MRAs are actually women themselves. To quote another eastern saying, it is often that wise men are easily conquered by woman, because they understand her higher nature, while it is the brute who conquers her. This idea of "game" is to reduce all relations between a man and a woman to the level of said brutes, which is extremely counterproductive if the goal is to restore a real balance between the sexes. And if i may say so, conquering a woman in such a way removes everything about her that is of true value, which sort of defeats the purpose.

[ibanezmonster]

And there you have it. The feminist delusion.

I realized that this sounds a bit harsh, sorry about that. I just think that some people are to quick to assume and jump to conclusions. It happens often when one is a minority in a group. I can think of a certain instance of being a minority in a group and having had something questionable said to me, but I'm careful- I let it remain a question mark unless all doubt has been shattered. And I don't want to give the impression that racism or sexism doesn't exist, because it does, but relating to this issue, different women have also had different perceptions. I've seen at least one facebook group consisting of women against modern feminism, stating that they don't feel oppressed.

Or what happened at Rotherham. People often speak of PC culture going amok. Oftentimes, this is an exaggeration, but in this case this is true to a frightening degree. The problem of "social justice" is that it lost its original meaning and has become something like a religion, with its own dogmas and its own inquisition.  And what happened to Matt Taylor was quite literally a which hunt. There is no other way to describe it. His sin was that of heresy, plain and simple.

I've heard of a feminist being critically attacked by other feminists for using the term "tranny." She apologized and was still relentlessly attacked. (Ok, the source was an Amazing Atheist video, not sure I remember which one, so sorry if I can't track that down, since I like to verify my sources).

[ibanezmonster]

No, these are just the sort of issues feminists almost never bring up, because it means criticizing non-Western muslims. Thousands of ranrs about rape culture and no discussion of ISIS or the taliban.

I would definitely support feminism in the Middle East.

As for video games ...
Threats against women who write video game software? Put down that compiler or die! Too funny.

Supposedly, one of the critiques about games such as Mario is that it's sexist because Princess Peach is portrayed as helpless and the hero that is going to save her is male (Mario) (a critique by Anita Sarkeesian). Seriously...

[Purusha]

I've heard of a feminist being critically attacked by other feminists for using the term "tranny." She apologized and was still relentlessly attacked. (Ok, the source was an Amazing Atheist video, not sure I remember which one, so sorry if I can't track that down, since I like to verify my sources).

This actually brings me to another point. I think part of the problem here is that western society appears to have become rather responsive to influence coming from what is essentially the least intelligent members of our society. Just look at the following graph:



When "feminists" (actually, a glorified blogger posing as such backed up by the shrieking chorus of an army of tumblrettes) attacked Matt Taylor, why did we, as a society, actually took the words of such irrelevant individuals seriously? Who are those people, that we should listen to them? This is something i just don't understand.

[ibanezmonster]

why did we, as a society, actually took the words of such irrelevant individuals seriously? Who are those people, that we should listen to them? This is something i just don't understand.

Somehow, this news gets on my fb news feed. Nowadays, since I don't watch TV, I either read the newspaper or get news from my facebook news feed. There was a ton of feminist news the last few months on my news feed, while anything MRM-related has never showed up. It's a good question, though.

[lisa needs braces]

When "feminists" (actually, a glorified blogger posing as such backed up by the shrieking chorus of an army of tumblrettes) attacked Matt Taylor, why did we, as a society, actually took the words of such irrelevant individuals seriously? Who are those people, that we should listen to them? This is something i just don't understand.

That Matt Taylor episode was ridiculous and saddening -- there was a man, who achieved a great technical triumph, partially robbed of his moment of glory by attention hungry feminists. There was multiple levels of wrongness about that episode -- the fact that feminism is ever amorphous and inconsistent: Hey, are women just like men and capable of taking a joke or are they babies who would actually be put off from science by uncouth t-shirts that depict sexily clad women? Sometimes feminists say the former, sometimes the latter, and it's this sort of endless mixed-messages that would in fact drive someone like Matt Taylor to wear a shirt like that in the first place. What are the rules? Men are happy to comply with any said rules, but you have to pick one set and stick to it. Suppose Matt Taylor shouldn't have worn that shirt for that live stream, then that's a mild critique of "raunch culture," which in turn is a call for everyone to dress modestly when out in public, even young attractive women. But oh no, telling women how to dress is SEXISM.

[Florestan]

The old prejudices are alive and well. Thus you don't see a lot of women becoming electricians or plumbers or truck drivers or whatever.

I must admit you´re absolutely right. Especially the plumbing field is a hotbed of sexism, misoginy and even worse. I know a lady who on her first work day as a plumber has been subjected to battery and humiliation by her coworkers: the hammer hit hard her toes; the screwdriver scratched and pierced her fingernails; the wrench squeezed her fingers; and to top it all, a sink flange spit sewage in her eyes. Naturally, she sued them all but the trial is at a standstill because the main witness has probably been blackmailed into silence: the bathtub refuses to testify.

That was way too long and well-thought-out a post

Oh yes, absolutely! It reminds me of The Critique of Pure Reason.

[Ken B]

For new readers, the thread so far:

"Feminists use double standards."
"Do not, and it's a good thing that they do."

Misses a few nuances, but catches the essence.

[mc ukrneal]

For new readers, the thread so far:

"Feminists use double standards."
"Do not, and it's a good thing that they do."

Misses a few nuances, but catches the essence.

Funny, the thread title says it's about men's rights, not feminists. Methinks there's been a hijacking...