The Men's Rights Movement

[Rinaldo]

For new readers, the thread so far:

Some people have no clue what feminism is.

Fixed it for you. No biggie!

Supposedly, one of the critiques about games such as Mario is that it's sexist because Princess Peach is portrayed as helpless and the hero that is going to save her is male (Mario) (a critique by Anita Sarkeesian). Seriously...

Seriously, the video was about damsels in distress and the role this trope plays in gaming. The critique was done in context and used to illustrate a broader point about the portrayal of women in videogames. To think the message was 'Mario is sexist' is not getting the message at all.

And seriously, the fact that you perceive amw's spot-on post as 'parody' while cherishing arguments from AmazingAtheist, well..

[Ken B]

Seriously, the video was about damsels in distress and the role this trope plays in gaming. The critique was done in context and used to illustrate a broader point about the portrayal of women in videogames. To think the message was 'Mario is sexist' is not getting the message at all.

You have misread the passage you quoted. Greg does not say or imply the message is "Mario is sexist." You have misread that sentence, or mischaracterised it.

[snyprrr]

Funny, the thread title says it's about men's rights, not feminists. Methinks there's been a hijacking...

This Thread has been infiltrated!!

"Men's Movement Implodes"

That Matt Taylor episode was ridiculous and saddening -- there was a man, who achieved a great technical triumph, partially robbed of his moment of glory by attention hungry feminists. There was multiple levels of wrongness about that episode -- the fact that feminism is ever amorphous and inconsistent: Hey, are women just like men and capable of taking a joke or are they babies who would actually be put off from science by uncouth t-shirts that depict sexily clad women? Sometimes feminists say the former, sometimes the latter, and it's this sort of endless mixed-messages that would in fact drive someone like Matt Taylor to wear a shirt like that in the first place. What are the rules? Men are happy to comply with any said rules, but you have to pick one set and stick to it. Suppose Matt Taylor shouldn't have worn that shirt for that live stream, then that's a mild critique of "raunch culture," which in turn is a call for everyone to dress modestly when out in public, even young attractive women. But oh no, telling women how to dress is SEXISM.

having a hard time looking away... like car accident... help me... please...


... uh,... where can I find moar?




"Oh, look honey,... a feminist."




Can anyone tell me how to just shut down this kind of blather in just five words? Just shut it down? Jesus seems like the King of One-Liners... what would jesus say to one of these to shut them up?


Muslim Proverb: "Hell is mostly women"






I like to know if entitled pretty women believe in reincarnation,... then I try to go about showing them that they could have either been a fat, bald man in their previous life, or their next one,... it's the only way i can cope with their seeming AllPowerfulWorldView,... don't worry. babe, you'll get the message...




My New Rap Name: The Big OT


(seriously, don't steal that shit, that's Gold right thar!!!!)

"I'm Big OT and I'm here to say..."





I remember when my ex called me a bigot, and I had to look it up in my 1905 dictionary,... and, lo and behold, yes, there i was,... huh,... I thought it was just common sense,... but, when common sense clashes with self-entitlement, I guess that's when they invented the word, eh?






TRUE STORY FROM 2 NIGHTS AGO:

i was at a joint, hangin with the Carribean girl- let's just say that this girl is BBB-LACK... and built like a brick shit house... I'm just not attracted, so, we can hang out...

BUUUT

we were in a redneck joint, and, seriously, all these stupid white guys were hitting on her in the most ignorant manner possible. "Shoot, I ain't no racist or nuthin, but yer fine for a black gurl."   "I hear the melanin makes you sing with that soul"   ... I even heard the "you people"...

priceless

and these were YOUNG stupids,...talkin just like they did in the '50s... I was amazed... I just sat there agape as one loser after another tried to woo this poor girl... I looked around, and EVERY GUY in the place was lookin at her like she was a cage fighter and they wanted to take her on.. lolz... poor girl!!

Wow, the white boys have been so beaten against for 50 years they've become Gay Uncle Toms... I feel as sorry for them as I do for her...

[Purusha]

Fixed it for you. No biggie!

Seriously, the video was about damsels in distress and the role this trope plays in gaming. The critique was done in context and used to illustrate a broader point about the portrayal of women in videogames. To think the message was 'Mario is sexist' is not getting the message at all.

And seriously, the fact that you perceive amw's spot-on post as 'parody' while cherishing arguments from AmazingAtheist, well..

Sorry, but there was no message. Anita Sarkeesian is the very definition of a snake oil salesman (or saleswoman i guess?). This is what i mean when social justice is a type of religion. The arguments don't even have to be good or insightful or make sense in any way or form, as long as they hit all the right ideological points. I cannot think of anything more innocent than Super Mario Bros, but somehow, we are to believe it is a tool of the patriarchy and evidence of oppression against women.

Ironically, Anita Sarkeesian made her fortune by playing damsel in distress on the internet in the first place. You simply can't make this stuff up.

[Rinaldo]

Ironically, Anita Sarkeesian made her fortune by playing damsel in distress on the internet in the first place. You simply can't make this stuff up.

Yet you do.

[Ken B]

Yet you do.

First rule of being rude: be right. Fail.

[Rinaldo]

First rule of being rude: be right. Fail.

As a video game journalist, I vividly remember Sarkeesian's kickstarter campaign and the abysmal backlash that it created - I didn't care much for feminist causes back then but all that shit that was thrown her way, including a game where you could beat her up, was really eye opening.

Her videos are well thought and inspiring, even when I don't agree with some of the arguments. The whole series is a welcome addition to the medium and people who call her a fraud and think she's hurting the industry (quite the opposite - she's a part of it growing up) are mistaking a valid social commentary / critique for an attack.

She's basically dissecting games the same way Ebert & Siskel did it with movies back in 1980:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Iz2N6BMOsyQ

[Purusha]

As a video game journalist... Her videos are well thought and inspiring

Like i said, you can't even make this up. 

I know i shouldn't get angry over this, but i can't help it. Here's Anita Sarkeesian, the great academic and gaming messiah, admitting she was never a gamer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6_ijRDHDb8

Do you like video games Rinaldo? Lack of actual interest or even knowledge in video games seems to be one of the defining characteristics of many (if not most) so called "gaming journalists". The very idea anyone would find Sarkeesian's videos to be "well thought out" (as well thought out as a Sarah Palin interview) or even "inspiring" (the use of sentimentalism is the first sign one is dealing with an ideologue) calls into question your level of competence in this field.

[Rinaldo]

Do you like video games Rinaldo? Lack of actual interest or even knowledge in video games seems to be one of the defining characteristics of many (if not most) so called "gaming journalists". The very idea anyone would find Sarkeesian's videos to be "well thought out" (as well thought out as a Sarah Palin interview) or even "inspiring" (the use of sentimentalism is the first sign one is dealing with an ideologue) calls into question your level of competence in this field.

That video is taken out of context. She became uninterested in games as the industry moved towards the dudebro shooters.

I love games and after 10+ years working in the industry (feel free to question my competence but I'm what you'd call an old school gamer, growing up with games in the late eighties), the medium still fascinates me and its possibilities seem endless. When I say "inspiring", I mean it literally - Anita's series inspired me to look at the industry in a way that didn't occur to me before. You disagree with her, fine. But the whole conspiracy theory BS that's being thrown around by paranoid bloggers Greg would probably find charming is laughable & sad at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/v/nsdIHK8O5yo

[Purusha]

That video is taken out of context. She became uninterested in games as the industry moved towards the dudebro shooters.

Sorry, but her ignorance is quite obvious. She was never really a gamer, she's just pretending because it helps her "professionally" (if you can call what she does a profession).

Besides, i don't see anything wrong with so called "dudebro" games, at least not in principle. It is their execution that leaves a lot to be desired, particularly this obsession they have in making everything so cinematic at the expense of actual gameplay. But then, it seems the people who play them are mostly interested in the multiplayer (which is very reminiscent of Counter Strike from what i've seen), so that the single player campaigns are mostly just very expensive adverts for the game. This wasn't the case originally. The first Medal of Honor and the first Call of Duty were actually great shooters, but this genre declined suddenly, much like the industry as a whole declined, due to a pressure to make games as "casual" as possible, focusing on presentation and fluff rather than actual content, allegedly, so that this medium could reach a "wider" audience, but in truth so that the soulless corporations who now dominate this industry could increase their profit margin. And you know how they got away with this? Because the noble gaming journalists were more than happy to play along, as long as it profited them personally.

(feel free to question my competence but I'm what you'd call an old school gamer, growing up with games in the late eighties)

What were your favored games from this era?

You disagree with her, fine. But the whole conspiracy theory BS that's being thrown around by paranoid bloggers Greg would probably find charming is laughable & sad at the same time.

Well, aside for the fact there is actual evidence of a direct conspiracy to end "gamers" and other such ludicrous things, you also have stuff like this:

http://m.oxm.co.uk/57106/features/the-100-most-important-people-in-games/

Between gaming journalists who appear to be just shills for the industry and those who seem bent on pushing a clear ideology, you ought to understand why some of us simply do no trust the media anymore.

The problem with so called "social justice warriors" is that they don't know when to quit, plain and simple. You have gone too far, and you don't want to admit it. That's why this situation continues to escalate and has resisted all efforts from the media (including the mainstream media, quite shamefully) to crush it and suppress it.

[Ken B]

As I recall, Rinaldo was the only GMGer in our politics discussion to say he was not libertarian. (Is that right?) libertarians should not want to meddle in what other people play. So I give Rinaldo credit here for consistency and self awareness. But seriously, getting upset over games people play?
How about that emasculating game chess, with the powerful queen? Femdom or what?

[Florestan]

That is not "society oppressing men;" it is merely kings, nobles, corporate executives, "the 1%" or whatever oppressing those who aren't.  Male-on-male oppression, in other words.

Word.

Nefertiti, Cleopatra, Poppea, Octavia, Isabel de Castilla, Elizabeth the 1st, Caterina de Medici, Lucrezia Borgia, Roxelane, Catherine the Great, Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Benazir Bhutto, Indira Gandhi, Angela Merkel, Condoleeza Rice, Margaret Albright, Hillary Clinton --- all those and many more, as well as the ambitious and ruthless mistresses of "kings,nobles and corporate executives", were males in disguise.

[Florestan]

Not allowing women to vote or be educated is not equivalent to oppressing them? That's interesting.

You do have a point. For instance, not allowing women to vote in the Middle Ages or the Renaissance was an outrageous discrimination, which cannot be in the least mitigated by the fact that, on the whole, back then women were better educated than men.

[ibanezmonster]

Word.

Nefertiti, Cleopatra, Poppea, Octavia, Isabel de Castilla, Elizabeth the 1st, Caterina de Medici, Lucrezia Borgia, Roxelane, Catherine the Great, Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Benazir Bhutto, Indira Gandhi, Angela Merkel, Condoleeza Rice, Margaret Albright, Hillary Clinton --- all those and many more, as well as the ambitious and ruthless mistresses of "kings,nobles and corporate executives", were males in disguise.

Good point about something I was about to say.

Okay, so the whole basis of feminism is the fight against the "patriarchy," which is oppressing women, right? And usually when people point out that it oppresses men, too, people make the same sort of point as jochanaan did (especially when it comes to violence: that men are the victims of violence more often, etc.). So what is the solution, then? Kill all men? Or create a matriarchy instead?

My question is: if there were a matriarchy, and it were mainly women in charge of the world, would they not be as oppressive? That is a huge assumption to make. In my view, people are people and neither gender is more suitable to rule overall.

As for Mario, the criticism is that this old, cliched plot device is so bad because it reinforces patriarchal values and perceptions. In other words, it's not okay for the women to be in a position of weakness where a man needs to save her. However, from what I've read, the general attitude is that it would be nice if it were the other way around. Okay, that's fine. Even the creator of Mario said he'd be open to any form of characters playing that role, whether they are gay or lesbian saving another gay or lesbian, or switched genders. The problem with the criticism of Mario is that they cannot accept a man saving a woman, yet they'd welcome a woman saving a man, when in reality, nobody cares either way. So that position seems inherently sexist to me.

I also feel like I understand the meaning of the term "feminazi" a bit more now. The Nazis were playing the victim card and blamed the Jews for oppressing them- you can replace Jews with patriarchy and Nazis with feminazis there.


I'd say it's safest to take a critical approach to everything. Now playing: 

Dancers To A Discordant System (lyrics)

Listen to the hidden tune
- The essence of lies in notes defined
As we dance to the dissonant sway
- The choreography refined
Will subdued and shackled
Reason washed aside
Pledging our love to the chains
Our ignorance ever-amplified

Blooded hands lead the waltz
We're trapped in the out of tune swirl
Still we set the show on continue mode
And dance to a discordant system

We accept the nails we're fed
- Lies sharpened to bleed us silent
Muted from the pains
Defiance employed in vain
Any attempts to leave the dance,
Invisibly suppressed
Questions unasked, we learn learn the steps
- Eyes shut like all the rest

Unsuspecting, willing, blind, controllable herd
Pawns in a covert game conducted by hands we trust
Dominated, compliant and deceptable
Confident that we matter - we don't see that we're but dust

Committed to a lie we cannot see, cannot know nor comprehend
We're all asinine drones kept in the dark, kept in line

Confined, Bereft of reason
Withering in toxicity
- The deadly fumes of deceit
And we all reek of complicity
Humbled, brought to our knees
By the weight of our own guilt
Our nescient ways the catalyst
To injustice and inhumanity

We dance - to appease
Compete in stupidity

Obscured faces file our points
- Numbers fed to the machine
Still we stand in line for the next show
The human spine liquefied
What are we, but stupefied
Dancers to a discordant system

We believe - so we're misled
We assume - so we're played
We confide - so we're deceived
We trust - so we're betrayed

[ibanezmonster]

Funny, the thread title says it's about men's rights, not feminists. Methinks there's been a hijacking...

I think if feminism went away, MRM could also go away and people could just focus on human matters that affects both genders. The only thing I support about MRM is that it is a reaction to feminism in the first place. I really don't support either movement, though. It's just too divisive.

[Rinaldo]

Sorry, but her ignorance is quite obvious.

To you, perhaps. Somehow, people like Joss Whedon or Stephen Colbert find her work insightful and worth supporting. I guess they didn't get the memo.

What were your favored games from this era?

Mechner's games (Karateka, Prince of Persia), anything by Bitmap Brothers, Elite, Budokan, Wizardry VII.

Well, aside for the fact there is actual evidence of a direct conspiracy to end "gamers"

Sorry, you've lost me. Have fun with your conspiracy theories, I have pressing feminist illuminati agenda to attend to.

[Purusha]

To you, perhaps. Somehow, people like Joss Whedon or Stephen Colbert find her work insightful and worth supporting. I guess they didn't get the memo.

I find it strange that you think this is supposed to prove anything, but since we are talking about Joss Whedon, here's what would happen if Anita Sarkeesian were to find Whedon to be a "misogynist":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57tXyqPCOCM

Taking things out of context (or applying a context that isn't there), relying on faulty logic, all the good stuff one finds in a typical Anita Sarkeesian video. Ho Joss Whedon, why do you hate women so?

Sorry, you've lost me. Have fun with your conspiracy theories, I have pressing feminist illuminati agenda to attend to.

So i suppose it is just a coincidence that a slew of articles declaring that gamers were "dead" appeared all at the same time? And i suppose the leaked e-mail exchanges which confirm this was a planned stunt is not what we would call "evidence", right?

[Purusha]

I think if feminism went away, MRM could also go away and people could just focus on human matters that affects both genders. The only thing I support about MRM is that it is a reaction to feminism in the first place. I really don't support either movement, though. It's just too divisive.

I think arguments of this type are based on a false understanding of what feminism actually is.

What we are witnessing here is actually a nominalist world view prevailing over a realist world view for the first time in history (for the record, i'm a realist and my beliefs are those expounded by Plato and the neoplatonists as well as those in line with the Vedanta, two systems of thought which are very similar to one another and essentially point towards the same underlying truths). The basic premise of all feminist or modernist arguments in general is that there is no underlying common nature between classes of things or objects in general. In the case of feminism, the idea is that there is no such thing as an underlying "male" nature or "female" nature. Male and female are just arbitrary labels we use to separate individuals according to an arbitrary cultural paradigm we have adopted only due to our ignorance, and any failure on the part of our society to achieve perfect representation across the board is a sign of oppression and inequality. There are no differences between men and women, therefore, any disparity between the sexes in our society must be due of a flaw in the way society works or in the way we think in general. If women fail to succeed in politics, it is not due the fact women are not naturally drawn to the type of competitive mindset that is needed to be successful in this field. It must be due the fact men are keeping women out of politics. Likewise, if women fail to succeed in IT oriented fields, it is because the "geeks" are too protective of their "culture" and not simply because women are not naturally interested in the more technical sciences. In a sense, the nominalist is basically criminalizing human nature and punishing individuals for their intellectual transgressions.

And of course, in the case of Super Mario, the problem is the latent realism inherent in this "trope" of the damsel in distress. It doesn't matter whether the author of this game had no intention to be "offensive" to women, because it is not women who are being offended, but the nominalist. And when Rinaldo argues that we need to "grow up", what he means is that we need to grow out of our childish realist views into his mature nominalist world view.

Now, with this said, the fallacy of some of the arguments coming from the MRA side lies in their "absolutism". Essentially, there are actually two aspects in any given natural phenomenon. There is a "relative" aspect, which is the visible manifestation of a given entity and is essentially all the nominalist sees, and then there is the underlying nature or "Form" which is the principle of being of any object manifested in relativity. In the system of thought of the Hindu, the formal pertains to that which they refer to as "Atma", where as the relative world is basically "maya" (the analogy of the cave used by Plato is a perfect explanation of the underlying idea of this system of thought). Now, if the nominalist can only see things of a more superficial nature, the absolutist on his part can only discuss things of a superficial nature due to the limitations of language. He could perceive the underlying absolute reality of a relative object, but he cannot express it in words. Or maybe he cannot see anything of a truly absolute nature, but simply cannot accept the nominalist argument, the latter amounting to the belief that everything is relative, simply because to say that everything is relative carries its own negation within itself. It is like saying that there is no truth, or other paradoxes of that type. Either way, what happens is that very often (particularly nowadays) those who want to affirm a realist point of view err by arguing that things of an obvious relative nature are actually absolute, and ironically they end up relying on nominalist or positivist ideas (such as the theory of evolution) to support their absolutist arguments.

At any rate, this is pretty much all there is to those arguments. That, and the fact that masculinity is "naturally" realist and femininity is "naturally" nominalist, which explains why this situation is partly expressing itself as a war between men and women, even though there are participants of either sex on both sides of the spectrum. On this note, i think i need to point out that when the ancients spoke of a male nature or feminine nature, they were referring to something which was completely beyond the actual manifestation of those things at an individual level. No human being is absolutely male or absolutely female, but we are all situated somewhere between those two poles, some of us veering towards one side, some veering towards the other, with women being "mostly" on the feminine side of the spectrum and males being "mostly" on the masculine side, but each individual containing something of the nature of both principles within themselves in various proportions, often times to the point some males are actually mostly feminine and vice versa.

With this in mind, there is one thing that needs to be said about the nature of masculinity and femininity, a subject which in itself is too large to really deal in its entirety here. What is of interest to the present argument is the fact masculinity is essentially the manifestation of the principle of being, where as femininity is pure potentiality, the magical force without which creation itself would not be possible. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the argument St. Augustine offers to explain the nature of creation and how this ties with his conception of timelessness. In that argument, he uses an interesting analogy using music and sound which in his mind are clear symbols of form and matter. In our present argument, we can basically argue that masculinity is music and femininity is sound.

Either way, what this means as far as human beings are concerned is that men seek out the principle of their own being within themselves and in all things, where as women only see potentiality and derive being entirely from men, while men in their turn derive power entirely from women. Now, this process isn't always perfect, and what happens essentially is that some men forge a conception of being at too low a level, which accounts for their closed mindedness and stubbornness, where as women are essentially so open minded to the point everything ceases to have any meaning and formlessness becomes the only guiding principle of their existence. But even more than this, there is the fact men need women to elevate themselves to higher states of existence, but they still require their masculinity to maintain being through out every stage of this process. Femininity basically acts as a liquefying force which dissolves their identity at a lower level and allows themselves to move towards higher states of being, but if they fail to reforge their own being at every stage they court the risk of being dominated entirely by femininity, and thus devolve into formlessness. Thus, the more masculine a person is, the harder and more inflexible he is, and the less he will be open to possibilities of an higher order. By opening themselves to femininity, they can raise themselves above their limitations, but they cannot abandon themselves entirely or they will lose themselves forever. Most so called "male" feminists are at this stage. Their entire existence is now defined by this loosening of essence. Their mindset is that of liquefying things for the sake of liquefying. This is what Rinaldo means when he sees the possibilities of games to be "endless". He is not talking about possibilities inherent in specific forms or creative directions of a clearly defined nature. He is reveling in the "endlessness" of the possibilities in questions, which is endlessness for the sake of endlessness and nothing else. Gaming is not elevating itself as an art form, but dissolving into nothingness with the dissolving process being the only guiding principle and the entire point of this new conception of the medium.

[Ken B]

Joss Whedon and Steven Colbert are experts on gaming culture? Sounds more like cool kids making fun of uncool kids to me.

[Rinaldo]

This is what Rinaldo means when he sees the possibilities of games to be "endless". He is not talking about possibilities inherent in specific forms or creative directions of a clearly defined nature. He is reveling in the "endlessness" of the possibilities in questions, which is endlessness for the sake of endlessness and nothing else. Gaming is not elevating itself as an art form, but dissolving into nothingness with the dissolving process being the only guiding principle and the entire point of this new conception of the medium.

Cool story, bro. I'm reveling in the fact that games are opening up the same way film or music industry did when the means to create something within that given medium became available to anyone.