Greatness in Music

[Don]

As I have said before, I obviously love Bach.

Your love for Bach seems to come with a big BUT, so you don't love him enough.

Values are not something to be discarded or changed just because time marches on.  I can see where young individuals might be changing some of their values as their life experiences build up.  However, mature adults have spent decades developing their values, and changing those values adds up to what I'll generously call "confused" thinking.

[sonic1]

Your love for Bach seems to come with a big BUT, so you don't love him enough.

Values are not something to be discarded or changed just because time marches on.  I can see where young individuals might be changing some of their values as their life experiences build up.  However, mature adults have spent decades developing their values, and changing those values adds up to what I'll generously call "confused" thinking.

No. I can love Bach, appreciate his genius, and not assert him as the pinnacle of western music. I can love Bach without turning him into the standard for every  other composer out there.

[Larry Rinkel]

I totally agree with everything you just said. The ass licking is most disgusting to me as well, among many other things in classical music (the evolution, the perception, the worshipping of the same old composers and works...). There's only one way to free yourself from all those sickness, and that is staying out from community, i mean from all the prejudices and trends it promotes.

Exactly what kind of "ass-licking" are we talking about that "disgusts" you so much? If I decide I want to listen to the St. Matthew Passion, or the Beethoven C# minor Quartet, or Die Meistersinger, because they provide me with some of the most musically rich experiences I can imagine, is that an example of "ass-licking" in your rather scatological eyes? Or is "sickness" a more exact epithet for my musical perversions? I really look forward to your enlightening me, so I can "free myself" at the belated age of 60 while I still have a couple of good years left.

[sonic1]

Exactly what kind of "ass-licking" are we talking about that "disgusts" you so much? If I decide I want to listen to the St. Matthew Passion, or the Beethoven C# minor Quartet, or Die Meistersinger, because they provide me with some of the most musically rich experiences I can imagine, is that an example of "ass-licking" in your rather scatological eyes? Or is "sickness" a more exact epithet for my musical perversions? I really look forward to your enlightening me, so I can "free myself" at the belated age of 60 while I still have a couple of good years left.

Jesus christ Larry, can you read? Sorry if this sounds rude, but I have nearly written a novel in this thread delineating exactly what I meant by ass-licking. I took back the crude comment later, but I think I made clear that listening to Bach was not what I meant in the least.

[Larry Rinkel]

Jesus christ Larry, can you read? Sorry if this sounds rude, but I have nearly written a novel in this thread delineating exactly what I meant by ass-licking. I took back the crude comment later, but I think I made clear that listening to Bach was not what I meant in the least.

Jesus Christ, yerself, if you can't realize I wasn't addressing you, but rather the person who continues whole-heartedly to endorse the comment and sentiments you retracted.

[Montpellier]

I think most of this greatness comes from cultural forces, including the commercial.   There've been a few experiments showing that people generally tend to social acceptability, namely going along with shared orientations, so consensus is developed about what is great and not, unfortunately led by critics in the arts.  Some souls are individual enough to explore an art for themselves and no doubt develop individual views and two fingers to the critics.  I would argue the pros and cons of music critics who prey upon those who do the actual work rather than composers/artists.   Critics are bound to bolster the view that Beethoven is great.  Any who didn't would be branded foolish without very considerable evidence.   Besides, Bach Beethoven and Mozart still sell more than Nono, Kagel and Stockhausen.  Most listeners don't like having to work at 'understanding' and the former trio and associates produced stuff easy to assimilate intuitively. 

[Varg]

Exactly what kind of "ass-licking" are we talking about that "disgusts" you so much? If I decide I want to listen to the St. Matthew Passion, or the Beethoven C# minor Quartet, or Die Meistersinger, because they provide me with some of the most musically rich experiences I can imagine, is that an example of "ass-licking" in your rather scatological eyes? Or is "sickness" a more exact epithet for my musical perversions? I really look forward to your enlightening me, so I can "free myself" at the belated age of 60 while I still have a couple of good years left.

First of all, i was not talking to you. I was talking to a man that is deeply offended by the community's prejudice, which is obviously not your case.

No, that doesnt make you an ass-licker, it just makes you a man who satisfy his personnal taste. The "ass-lickers", to explain myself, are the countless conductors and orchestras (every single one of them!) always learning and performing the same old pieces from the old same masters, that we have heard countless times before. Of course, they are not to be forgotten, but should not always be the "highlights of the evening" neither, the one who brings people to the performances. They need to learn to let go a little, both with recordings and performances.

[Larry Rinkel]

First of all, i was not talking to you. I was talking to a man that is deeply offended by the community's prejudice, which is obviously not your case.

No, that doesnt make you an ass-licker, it just makes you a man who satisfy his personnal taste. The "ass-lickers", to explain myself, are the countless conductors and orchestras (every single one of them!) always learning and performing the same old pieces from the old same masters, that we have heard countless times before. Of course, they are not to be forgotten, but should not always be the "highlights of the evening" neither, the one who brings people to the performances. They need to learn to let go a little, both with recordings and performances.

We can all respond to whatever posts we like. But you really are painting your "ass-lickers" with far too broad a brush. Of course there are conductors and other musicians who never touch a piece of music that isn't certifiably safe. But there are as many musicians who take risks by performing and recording pieces that go beyond the standard list. Pollini for one will program Boulez and Stockhausen, and has even played Schoenberg as an encore. James Levine, whatever one may think of his musicianship, keeps the Berg operas in repertory at the Met, has programmed a Beethoven-Schoenberg series in Boston, and no one is a more enthuasistic proponent of Elliott Carter. Anne-Sophie Mutter has recorded Berg and Rihm. Abbado plays Nono and Stockhausen. I've heard Christoph von Dohnanyi program Varèse and Birtwistle. Charles Rosen in his better days played both Boulez and Carter; I see him fairly regularly at New York concerts featuring the music of those composers and other modernists like Ferneyhough. A couple of years ago I heard Tilson Thomas do Berio's Epiphanies. Lorin Maazel recently did the Carter Variations with the NY Philharmonic. Even Bernstein, who hated modern music, premiered the Carter Concerto for Orchestra and performed the Boulez Improvisations sur Mallarmé. Need I go on?

[DavidW]

First of all, i was not talking to you. I was talking to a man that is deeply offended by the community's prejudice, which is obviously not your case.

If you wanted it to be a private conversation then you should have taken it to PM instead of posting it on a public forum.  The whole point of forums is to invite discussion and debate from everyone.

[Varg]

We can all respond to whatever posts we like. But you really are painting your "ass-lickers" with far too broad a brush. Of course there are conductors and other musicians who never touch a piece of music that isn't certifiably safe. But there are as many musicians who take risks by performing and recording pieces that go beyond the standard list. Pollini for one will program Boulez and Stockhausen, and has even played Schoenberg as an encore. James Levine, whatever one may think of his musicianship, keeps the Berg operas in repertory at the Met, has programmed a Beethoven-Schoenberg series in Boston, and no one is a more enthuasistic proponent of Elliott Carter. Anne-Sophie Mutter has recorded Berg and Rihm. Abbado plays Nono and Stockhausen. I've heard Christoph von Dohnanyi program Varèse and Birtwistle. Charles Rosen in his better days played both Boulez and Carter; I see him fairly regularly at New York concerts featuring the music of those composers and other modernists like Ferneyhough. A couple of years ago I heard Tilson Thomas do Berio's Epiphanies. Lorin Maazel recently did the Carter Variations with the NY Philharmonic. Even Bernstein, who hated modern music, premiered the Carter Concerto for Orchestra and performed the Boulez Improvisations sur Mallarmé. Need I go on?

Of course there are exeptions! But is it common?

[Varg]

If you wanted it to be a private conversation then you should have taken it to PM instead of posting it on a public forum.  The whole point of forums is to invite discussion and debate from everyone.

I wasn't being an ass on him. I meant that what i said wasn't directed towards him, and didnt applied to him, so there was no reason for him to be offended by what i said; the ass-licking thing was misunderstood.

[Mark G. Simon]

We all feel frustrated at times about the conservatism of classical music organizations and listeners, but this has nothing to do with the concept of greatness in music.

Frankly, abandoning the concept of greatness as a way of gaining a foothold for modern music is an admission of defeat. Modern music will either prove itself the equal or superior to the old masterpieces, or it will die the death it deserves.

[Larry Rinkel]

Of course there are exeptions! But is it common?

Whether it is or isn't I don't know, but judging from your statements I don't believe you know either. My point is that once specifics are examined - and other examples can easily be found of conductors interested in modern music (Salonen, Rattle) - the situation is hardly as one-dimensional as you aver.

[karlhenning]

We all feel frustrated at times about the conservatism of classical music organizations and listeners, but this has nothing to do with the concept of greatness in music.

Frankly, abandoning the concept of greatness as a way of gaining a foothold for modern music is an admission of defeat. Modern music will either prove itself the equal or superior to the old masterpieces, or it will die the death it deserves.

Short, and very much to the point.

[Larry Rinkel]

We all feel frustrated at times about the conservatism of classical music organizations and listeners, but this has nothing to do with the concept of greatness in music.

I think in a sense it does, but I need more time than I have right now to develop the concept in any fullness. Briefly, what I'm getting at is that the concept of a canon of great music to be preserved for all time is something that originated in the later 18th and early 19th centuries. Prior to that, and up until fairly recent times, the emphasis was always placed on composers supplying new music, and only a few antiquarians took much interest in music of the past. Today's audiences, however, alienated by the contemporary, and what's more having the medium of recording to supply their own preferences for a conservative repertory, are more likely to turn to the past as a way of escaping the musical present. And as a result, composers of today have to fight harder than ever to be heard.

Actually that says most of it.

Personally, I deplore a lack of interest in the musical past as much as I do contempt for the musical present. If anything, there is much music of the past that deserves wider dissemination than it currently receives (Dufay, anyone? Josquin? Monteverdi?)

[karlhenning]

We all feel frustrated at times about the conservatism of classical music organizations and listeners, but this has nothing to do with the concept of greatness in music.

I think in a sense it does, but I need more time than I have right now to develop the concept in any fullness.

Well, one way is related to a point Mark raised earlier;  it takes rare acumen to identify greatness in music in its time, and (as Mark indicated) there is stuff out today which time will sort out into degrees of greatness.  In comparison, standing up for the greatness of that music which has already received the accolades of the past, is a pretty safe bet . . . with, likewise, a generally modest reward::risk ratio.

Briefly, what I'm getting at is that the concept of a canon of great music to be preserved for all time is something that originated in the later 18th and early 19th centuries. Prior to that, and up until fairly recent times, the emphasis was always placed on composers supplying new music, and only a few antiquarians took much interest in music of the past. Today's audiences, however, alienated by the contemporary, and what's more having the medium of recording to supply their own preferences for a conservative repertory, are more likely to turn to the past as a way of escaping the musical present. And as a result, composers of today have to fight harder than ever to be heard.

This, too, very much to the point.

[Haffner]

I still wonder how much people are invalidating musical genres like modern Rock/Metal (and of course the others) mainly by dint of their not taking a historical perspective on them. Peopl today (I mentioned this earlier in the thread) often simply dismiss out of hand modern music simply because it is modern.

When I fell back in love with Our Music (the "Classics") last year, I started out by pretty much dismissing modern music offhand. After having immersed myself in Our Music with a novice's zeal, I went back to Rock and Metal and heard many things I didn't listen to before: elaborate compositions with plenty of variation and well-developed counterpoint.

Of course, I understand that most "Popular" music is irritatingly "dumb", overly simple...but I'm wondering how "complex" a piece has to be to make it "valid" as great music.

[AnthonyAthletic]

Of course, I understand that most "Popular" music is irritatingly "dumb", overly simple...but I'm wondering how "complex" a piece has to be to make it "valid" as great music.

It doesn't when you are talking Rock.  Just listening to the Live in Tokyo concert, Deep Purple...Smoke on the Water, each instrument entering at staggered intervals, Blackmore, Lord, Paice, Glover....Gillan.  Knocks the socks off the studio version.

Not complex, just great music and great timing!! 

[dtwilbanks]

And rock is a whole other world of tone.

[Haffner]

It doesn't when you are talking Rock.  Just listening to the Live in Tokyo concert, Deep Purple...Smoke on the Water, each instrument entering at staggered intervals, Blackmore, Lord, Paice, Glover....Gillan.  Knocks the socks off the studio version.

Not complex, just great music and great timing!! 

Hey, I don't have that Deep Purple cd yet! It's probably the only one I don't have (this situation is being remedied).