Who will get the Berliner Philharmoniker gig?

[Gurn Blanston]

The part I objected to has nothing to with Thielemann at all. Until this comment I have not even mentioned him. I expressed displeasure with stereotyped arguments about people based on their race and gender. Still do. Even if you gussy them up with mass psychologizing about "dominant groups."  I object as well to expressions of contempt for interlocutors being held up as "exemplary."

Your position is typical of the Left:  never able to be self-critical or to think about anybody else but yourselves and your own moral imperatives - which add weight to the notion that the vast majority of the unwashed don't share your exquisite moral values and neutral, gender-free, ideologically free (yeah right), political correct-free, religion-free universe.

Which was apropos of exactly nothing which had been said so far. And in fact, was what made me take notice of the thread to begin with, since it was the first blatant ad hominem of the discussion, and out of left field, more or less.

Where, exactly, did political correctness come into it to begin with? Why, right here:

This is all a world away from my original point about Christian Theilemann, who has already enjoyed many prestigious musical positions.  And he will continue to do so.  That's he's not a captive to political correctness gives me a great deal of additional pleasure.

Misha had neither condemned nor defended Theilemann for saying whatever he said, he merely pointed out that saying it hurt his chances of becoming head of the BP. Of course, it all went a bit downhill after that.

I think we need to back away from this whole thing, vote for Nagano and move on. The fact that most of us have political views should come as a surprise to no one, and there is a place to air them out, not in the music discussion area. This is why the Diner was created.

[Ken B]

Which was apropos of exactly nothing which had been said so far. And in fact, was what made me take notice of the thread to begin with, since it was the first blatant ad hominem of the discussion, and out of left field, more or less.

Where, exactly, did political correctness come into it to begin with? Why, right here:

Misha had neither condemned nor defended Theilemann for saying whatever he said, he merely pointed out that saying it hurt his chances of becoming head of the BP. Of course, it all went a bit downhill after that.

I think we need to back away from this whole thing, vote for Nagano and move on. The fact that most of us have political views should come as a surprise to no one, and there is a place to air them out, not in the music discussion area. This is why the Diner was created.

Right. Personality tinged political squabbles don't belong here. So when I express displeasure at exactly that I get grief.

[Gurn Blanston]

Right. Personality tinged political squabbles don't belong here. So when I express displeasure at exactly that I get grief.

Oh dear, if you think THAT was grief, you don't know me! In any case, your circumspection in defining the source of your displeasure was certainly deceptive. My apologies, lad.

[ibanezmonster]

My analysis was based on the (undeniable) fact that Western society is still dominated and organized around and for the benefit of white males from the locally dominant ethnic group.

Oh, boy. 

[San Antone]

This morning I've been listening to Karajan with the BPO (1979) doing Missa Solmenis.  And I was wondering what were his politics and how did that figure into his success as the leader of the Berlin band?  I've heard stories about his affinity with the Right, but don't really know.  Of course 1979 was a different climate.

[Ken B]

This morning I've been listening to Karajan with the BPO (1979) doing Missa Solmenis.  And I was wondering what were his politics and how did that figure into his success as the leader of the Berlin band?  I've heard stories about his affinity with the Right, but don't really know.  Of course 1979 was a different climate.

On another thread we discussed the whole "what about if the artist is a turd" thing. And some of the very same people who said they keep the issues separate are now saying very different things! C'est la vie.
My impression of HvK is he didn't give a toss about politics. I don't think he was a nazi at all. But he also wasn't anti-nazi at all. Inevitably then he participated in the the musical life of the third reich in ways we would prefer he didn't. He never as far as I know piped up about how great Hitler was, as did Anton Webern.

[Todd]

I don't think he was a nazi at all.

Fluffy was a card carrying National Socialist, though possibly more for career advancement purposes than anything else.  Currently, he has the inestimable advantage of being dead, so it really doesn't matter.

[Ken B]

Fluffy was a card carrying National Socialist, though possibly more for career advancement purposes than anything else.  Currently, he has the inestimable advantage of being dead, so it really doesn't matter.

Yes, but actually he joined the party twice, each time following being told he had to be a member for some career advancing step. A proud nazi would remember he had joined before.

[MishaK]

Yes, but actually he joined the party twice, each time following being told he had to be a member for some career advancing step. A proud nazi would remember he had joined before.

Well, yes and no. He joined in Salzburg in 1933 when the Nazi party was still not formally permitted in Austria and at which time the claim that this somehow helped his career is a bit dubious. His application was "re-processed" in 1939 when the previous membership was deemed invalid in the context of a review of Austrian applications. And Karajan is said to have written some private letters early in his career where he polemicised about the number of Jews at certain theaters where he didn't want to work. He also conducted at party functions and in occupied territories. On the other hand he did marry a "1/4-Jewish" woman. Hitler is said to have disliked him and banned him from Bayreuth because of a messy Meistersinger performance that Herbie blamed on a drunken tenor. The Nazis nevertheless did put him on the "Gottbegnadeten"-list which spared him military service. He nonetheless went into hiding near Lake Como to evade military service towards the end of the war. He certainly doesn't seem like an ideologue, more of boot-strapping opportunist.

Currently, he has the inestimable advantage of being dead, so it really doesn't matter.

Aye.

I think we need to back away from this whole thing, vote for Nagano and move on.

 

[kishnevi]

One of the most unintentionally horrifying things I have seen is a DVD of him conducting LvB 9.  May or may not have been his fault.  The chorus was filmed in a way that made them seem uniformly robotic.  Even the mouths moved precisely, smoothly, absolutely the same for each member of the chorus. Not a hint of individuality beyond hair color. A totalitarian Ode to Joy.

I did avoid him for reasons nonmusical (the Nazi links) and musical (did not really like that Berlin sound).  Over time I have changed my mind about him musically,  enough that the nonmusical reasons are not enough to keep him off my shelves. In fact I now have a wide swathe of his recordings, although I will never be one of those people who have the giant Karajan boxes.

My one red line is not to get anything actually recorded under the Third Reich. And even that is more academic, since I generally do not like "historical" recordings because of the sonics.

[Ken B]

"He certainly doesn't seem like an ideologue, more of boot-strapping opportunist."

Yes, that matches my impression from what I read perfectly.

[TheGSMoeller]

Just Announced!! The new music director is Maestro Larry David...


https://www.youtube.com/v/Jl3Am3LY6mQ

[San Antone]

VLADIMIR JUROWSKI?

KIRILL PETRENKO?

GUSTAVO DUDAMEL?

All are regular guest conductors; of these three (and I have no idea if any of them are realistic candidates) I would prefer Jurowski.

[Mirror Image]

Jurowski has a wider range of repertoire than Petrenko and Dudamel, so, yes, it would be nice if he got the slot, but I wouldn't hold your breath. All three of these conductors seem out-of-the-race IMHO.

[MishaK]

Jurowski has a wider range of repertoire than Petrenko and Dudamel, so, yes, it would be nice if he got the slot, but I wouldn't hold your breath. All three of these conductors seem out-of-the-race IMHO.

The only one of these three who has actually taken himself out of the race [indirectly, by committing to LA through 2022] is Dudamel. The other two are still in, as is Sokhiev. Not sure what makes you think K. Petrenko's repertoire is small? I've been following his career for decades. He's conducted pretty much everything (and has won awards for his leadership at the Komische Oper in Berlin). The BPO seem to have an excellent rapport with him, if you watch their interaction on the two concerts of theirs in the Digital Concert Hall (which repertoire spans from Beethoven to Stravinsky to Elgar).

[trung224]

  I think Andris Nelsons will be chosen. He is for me the most suitable candidate. He is young, charismatic (just like every Music Directors of BPO). And he has by far the closest connection with BPO, with at least 9 concerts with BPO since 2010, with variable repertoire (Beethoven,Brahms,Mozart,Mahler,Bruckner, R.Strauss, Shostakovich), more than anyone except Rattle . Even with public opinions in Berlin , Jansons is favorable. The only problems is his contract is Boston, but who knows.

[Ken B]

I'm told that Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, and Nigel Farage are all looking for new gigs.

[Mirror Image]

The only one of these three who has actually taken himself out of the race [indirectly, by committing to LA through 2022] is Dudamel. The other two are still in, as is Sokhiev. Not sure what makes you think K. Petrenko's repertoire is small? I've been following his career for decades. He's conducted pretty much everything (and has won awards for his leadership at the Komische Oper in Berlin). The BPO seem to have an excellent rapport with him, if you watch their interaction on the two concerts of theirs in the Digital Concert Hall (which repertoire spans from Beethoven to Stravinsky to Elgar).

Let's see, Jurowski has conducted, and recorded, Britten, Honegger, RVW, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, R. Strauss, Ravel, Bach, Puccini, Rossini, Schnittke, Zemlinsky, Brahms, Mozart, Verdi, Beethoven, Rachmaninov, among others. Now, who has Kirill Petrenko conducted and made recordings of?

[some guy]

Well, what I found problematic wasn't anything about Petrenko's repertoire but something about interpretation and accurate reading.

Here's Mirror Image's original statement: "Jurowski has a wider range of repertoire than Petrenko and Dudamel." Now that simply does not express anything about how wide Petrenko's and Dudamel's ranges are except for being narrower than Jurowski's. Narrower than something really really wide might indeed be something that is also quite wide, just not as.

Certainly "X has a wider range than Y" does not mean "Y has a narrow range." And what was actually said was this:

"what makes you think K. Petrenko's repertoire is small?"

Whatever else Mirror may have said, "Petrenko's repertoire is small" was not one of them.

Yes, I understand that Mirror in his latest response is sort of suggesting that, but that's as may be.

"X has a wider range than Y" is not at all the same as "Y has a narrow range" and is even further from "Y has a small repertoire." That's just interpretation, and interpretation being substituted for what was originally said, and the conversation being pushed into talking about the substitution rather than the original.

And that, children, is what's wrong with internet chat groups generally nowadays.

[jlaurson]

Oh, he would drop that "contract" like a hot potato, just like he walked out on Munich on a moment's notice, damn the legalistic torpedoes.

...that's not QUITE how it happened, though...

Anyway: Fresh from Forbes:



MAY 9, 2015 @ 7:30 PM
The Berlin Philharmonic's Next Conductor: The Odds And Ends

It's a slightly smaller community that cares, but for them it's like electing the pope:
The Berlin Philharmonic is getting together to choose their chief conductor and only
the plume of smoke will missing when they announce the result on Monday. Here's
some rampant speculation as to what that result will be...



related:



Mariss Jansons renews contract with Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra until 2021



Mariss Jansons wasn't going to be seriously considered for the Chief Conductor
position of the Berlin Philharmonic (or maybe seriously considered but decidedly
without a hope of attaining the position, with the Berlin Philharmonic going for
someone young), so he might as well renew his gig with the Bavarian standouts...
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/05/mariss-jansons-renews-contract-with.html