Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

[James]

Carter's music after his death seems to have fallen into almost complete obscurity. America doesn't seem to be too behind it.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Carter's music after his death seems to have fallen into almost complete obscurity. America doesn't seem to be too behind it.

On what precisely do you base your opinion?

Just this year, I heard the Pacifica Quartet do the 1st Quartet. The audience was pretty enthusiastic.

I don't think America as a whole was ever "too behind" his music.

[Karl Henning]

On what precisely do you base your opinion?

Just this year, I heard the Pacifica Quartet do the 1st Quartet. The audience was pretty enthusiastic.

I don't think America as a whole was ever "too behind" his music.

If there are still people performing the music, any living (or lately deceased) composer is ahead of the curve.

[not edward]

Haven't heard the Pomàrico Symphonia yet, but the timings look intriguing, with Adagio tenebroso a full three minutes longer than Knussen.

Anyone heard it yet? Other than Neos's website, I've not yet found anywhere that's even offering it for sale.

[Rons_talking]

Carter

If there are still people performing the music, any living (or lately deceased) composer is ahead of the curve.

Some of his earlier works have been played enough to be "classics", such as his piano sonata, cello sonata, symphony and first string quartets. I've heard all of these played live and I don't think they're going away. His music is so difficult to perform that some works may not seem worth the time to some performers, but Carter is certainly well-regarded in the US and abroad. And his music is always excellent.

[snyprrr]

Well, that's a lot, and it might be plenty for you. Of the pieces you've not listed, my favorites include:
Night Fantasies (solo piano)
Brass Quintet
Triple Duo
Two song cycles with chamber ensemble: Tempo e tempi; A Mirror on Which to Dwell

But I also adore the Violin Concerto and the Oboe Concerto, which didn't grab you.

Maybe try jumping to Mel Powell, whose best music -- String Quartet 1984; Woodwind Quintet; Strand Settings (voice and tape); Duplicates (two pno/orch) -- has much of the same appeal.

I finally got a hold of that Virgin disc with the VC. SWell, I must say, I've listened to it three times, and I'm mightily impressed! The solo part is extraordinarily complex, and somewhat scrappy- Carter does have "thorns" still- it sounds as if Ole Bohm is being taken to the very limits of his technique- sometimes I hear what sounds like struggle, but he hits all the notes with a vengeance, navigating this outrageously complex line. And, the orchestra IS very translucent, like in the Clarinet and Oboe Concertos.

Yes, I was wrong before, the VC is, imo, one of the greatest of late, I'm still tingling!

[Leo K.]

Carter's Clarinet Quintet is full of rich timbre and rhythmic variation, it's so amazing as a concept and sounds autumnal and American. (I'm listening to a broadcast I have from the Quatuor Ardeo with Armand Angster on the clarinet)

[snyprrr]

Brass Quintet (1974)

Finally reacquired the Wallace Collection CD; there appear to be only two issues here, the Collins Classics, and the American Brass Quintet on some American label. The Quintet is one of, if not the ugliest piece in Carter's canon. I heard it played before I was ready, and mercilessly mocked my teacher for playing the most stereotypical "Modern" music he could come up with- rigor rigor rigor. Their faces were all turning red and blue playing the piece, which really has a lot of starts, stops, burps, grunts, and gruffly plods forward. Oh, I can't wait! Haven't listened yet...

[Wendell_E]

And for an encore, I'll play a little Carter:

http://www.nashvillescene.com/music/classical/article/20836803/the-biggest-attraction-of-the-nashville-symphonys-program-was-a-blast-from-the-past

[snyprrr]

And for an encore, I'll play a little Carter:

http://www.nashvillescene.com/music/classical/article/20836803/the-biggest-attraction-of-the-nashville-symphonys-program-was-a-blast-from-the-past

They didn't actually say what the piece was?

[Mahlerian]

They didn't actually say what the piece was?

As Tao's fleet fingers raced through Caténaires, a dissonant perpetual-motion piece that Carter composed at age 97, the audience listened with breathless excitement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54CYVr0_acY

I must say that in the conventional meaning of the word dissonant, it's strange to refer to a piece without any vertical harmony whatsoever as "dissonant."  I understand what's meant, but it's probably not strictly correct to say it that way.

[snyprrr]

Duo

This is one of Carter's more difficult works for listening, imo. It comes from his thorniest period, yet is more perplexing than volatile. I referenced both the Julliard/Mann and the Arditti.

As one might guess, Arditti's bow is much more in charge than Mann.s, but Mann is by no means a slouch. The piano is radically louder in the Mann/SONY, but, because the recording is so good, this effect is not translated to ear fatigue. Still, I wonder if this is on purpose, and this is distinctly a combat piece. The Arditti/Auvidis recording places the violin just ahead of the piano, in a slightly drier acoustic. Honors are somewhat divided between the two performances and recordings.

But... the piece itself? I don't know, it reminds me of the kind of piece I hated in the beginning. "Angry Composer Klanks ", or something. I would have heard precious little subtlety. All I would have heard is the "noise". But, the piece is actually pretty clear, clean, and delicate, with some outbursts. I want to put it in the "late 70s" context... but it only partially subscribes to an uncompromising ethos. There's something else here too, elusive as it is.

Can anyone else say anything clear here? LOL, I must have fried some circuits last night...

[PotashPie]

Carter is uncompromising, for sure...always chromatic, modern. His redeeming quality is the way he treats separate lines, giving the players roles or voices, some literary input. His use of specialized sets gives his music a more comprehensive feel, as if we are listening to his 'voice' rather than just elaborations of chromatic set-thinking. It's like serialism with a soul. And for some strange reason, it sounds very American.

[arpeggio]

I have checked this thread and the discussion here is so much more civilized.

A flame war has just started over Carter at Talk Classical.

One of more precocious members started a poll "Is Carter a great composer?" This poster is apparently a music student who thinks the last great composer was Shostakovich.  He is all the time creating to polls to reinforce his idea that all contemporary music stinks.

Even though over half of respondents voted yes, the anti-Carter (modern whatever music crowd) has come out of the woodwork spouting their venom.

One of the moderators has tried to calm things down.  He deleted come of the nastier post and edited some. In spite of his warnings I suspect the thread will be closed down soon.

Of course one pro-Carter made an inflammatory remark.  He stated people who did not understand Carter were not intelligent enough to understand his music.  Of course this lead to a flood of negative waves.  A person who dislikes Carter is just expressing an opinion.  He may be opinionated.  But he is not stupid.

Carter is my favorite modernistic composer.  I did not get him until I was in my fifties.  Prior to then I only got his earlier works and the Variations for Orchestra.  Since then I have become a big fan of his music.  I love his Clarinet Concerto.  I have actually have discovered some of the tunes in his music.  I actually caught him quoting Beethoven's Fifth in the last movement of the Double Concerto.  It may have been an unintentional but I do not think so.

I had the privilege of meeting Carter at Tanglewood in 2005.  He seemed to be a very nice person.

[Karl Henning]

Heck, maybe I'm not intelligent enough to understand Carter's music. But I dig it.

[San Antone]

Of course one pro-Carter made an inflammatory remark.  He stated people who did not understand Carter were not intelligent enough to understand his music.  Of course this lead to a flood of negative waves. 

I don't think intelligence has anything to do with appreciating music.  In my opinion it is much more important to simply be curious about music of all styles, places and periods.  Elliott Carter included.

[arpeggio]

I don't think intelligence has anything to do with appreciating music.  In my opinion it is much more important to simply be curious about music of all styles, places and periods.  Elliott Carter included.

I agree.  I called this person out myself before I gave up on the thread.

I understand why some may dislike Carter.  But their criticisms are always the same:  His music does not have any pretty melodies, it does not have appealing harmonies, it is a lot of noise, he is not as popular Bach, etc..

If a person can articulate it, I am actually more interested reading why a person likes Carter.

[Mahlerian]

If a person can articulate it, I am actually more interested reading why a person likes Carter.

His music is lively, filled with witty turns of phrase and an ever-active texture.  He employs both the fractured textures of the Darmstadt avant-garde and the longer lines of his fellow Boulanger alumni, and in terms of character, his music embraces violence and serenity and the playful and the strident.

In short, his music embodies many of the qualities that make for great music, and I find personally that it is a pleasure and not merely a challenge to get to know one of his works.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

His music is lively, filled with witty turns of phrase and an ever-active texture.  He employs both the fractured textures of the Darmstadt avant-garde and the longer lines of his fellow Boulanger alumni, and in terms of character, his music embraces violence and serenity and the playful and the strident.

I agree with all of this. A few further comments. For me, Carter was a composer who took a lot of active listening to get into. (That's usually a good thing BTW.) I was intrigued by the sense that the music could go anywhere at any time, unlike the more form-based classical music I was familiar with.

The polyphony of it was also intriguing. One key to understanding was a quotation from him to the effect that he  was not interested in the more regimented sounds that older composers used (such as soldiers marching), but was trying to evoke the teeming, constantly shifting nature of modern urban life.

In addition, the more I listened, the more it was clear that he was exploiting something that older composers had also used, but in a more formal way: the notion that instruments have their own personalities and could interact like characters in a play. You can find this hinted at all the time in older music, but Carter put it much more in the center of his work.

Sure, you can't really whistle his compositions. But you can't whistle a play or a movie either. You have to approach the work on its own terms.

[Mahlerian]

Elliott Carter : A fond look back



Although considered by many America's greatest composer after Copland's death, Carter remained a loner on the American musical scene, affiliated with no group or school and indifferent to the changing demands of fashion and the marketplace. He once commented that the most radical work an American composer could write would be one like Brahms's Fourth Symphony, which assumed the most highly developed musical culture in its listeners. By the time he exceeded 100 years, his inspiration undiminished, Carter had produced more than half a century of just such subversively refined masterpieces.

A wonderful article about one of America's greatest composers.  Thank you for sharing.