Paris

[knight66]

Careful folks. I don't want to lock this thread and some may feel the suggestion to be premature, but this is an incendary topic and the one or two who seem to like to needle others will end up leaving gaps rather than opinions.

An important topic, so I ask that we take care with one another.

Knight

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'm not sure he knows a hawk from a handsaw.

Or we are seeing the reincarnation of Josquin des Prez.

Yes, forsooth, I will hold my tongue; so your face bids me, though you say nothing. Mum, mum.

[Purusha]

1. Somebody smeared a swastika on the wall using shit.
2. How do you know they're rich? In the USA, black people attending public schools are usually not rich.
3. ...and they've usually experienced a lot of hardship and racism.

1) So? Obviously a prank or an hoax to any rational person. The Yale story was even worse, since the issue was a professor disagreeing that there was anything "racist" or "problematic" about Halloween costumes. This is obviously much more important than hundreds of people getting mowed down by terrorists. 

2) Yale is not a public school, nor it is Mizzou. And the screeching little snowflakes actually come from privileged families:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/09/meet-the-privileged-yale-student-who-shrieked-at-her-professor/

3) Bullshit.

[Brian]

2) Yale is not a public school, nor it is Mizzou. And the screeching little snowflakes actually come from privileged families:

You linked to an article about Mizzou, not Yale. Mizzou is a public school. You were wrong.

As for the topic of racism in the central USA, you know nothing and are unqualified to speak.

[Purusha]

As for the topic of racism in the central USA, you know nothing and are unqualified to speak.

Depends on what you mean by "qualified". Political correctness is your religion, not mine. What matters to me is the actual reality of things, not the dogma. And i find there is a certain dint of irony in the fact it is liberal professors those protesters are after, the very people who inculcated those kids with this idiotic world view.

But to return to the topic at hand, i'd like to address one particular point:

Really? Muslims want that, all of them? I suppose you haven't considered that encouraging this mindless hatred of people solely because of their race and creed might lead to a larger percentage of Muslims being attracted by the terrorists' propaganda painting the West as an enemy which must be fought against.

Except modern Islam is essentially an hardened, right-wing reaction to the "liberal" West. It is not so much the bombs that Muslims hate, but western "values" specifically, or rather, a specific set of western values. Namely, your values. The Muslims hate the West for the same exact reason people like me hate the West (or the modern West rather). They hate the West because it is anti-traditional. They hate the West for its secularism. They also hate the West because of Caitlyn Jenner.

The West they did not hate is the West i like. The West of Plato and Aristotle. The West of Charlemagne. See the pattern here? Of course, it would be a mistake to assume the Muslims were "multicultural". They weren't. They believed in the superiority of their ways and their beliefs. So did the Christian West believe in the superiority of its own beliefs and its own ways. But despite being different and exclusive, both civilizations felt a certain kinship with one another, and there was a certain reciprocal respect, even when the one met the other in the battlefield.

What we have now is one deranged civilization imposing itself upon foreign cultures. Some react by becoming themselves deranged. Others go the opposite way, by becoming more tribalistic and right-wing, and Islam is now the most tribalistic and right-wing culture of all. By opening its borders to Islam, the West has signed its own death warrant because two entities which are completely opposite of one another cannot coexist side by side. One is bound to obliterate the other eventually, and i think Islam is better equipped for survival, especially in a war of attrition fought in terms of demographics rather than open arms.

[Purusha]

Yes, this member seems hellbent on just making posts that are to provoke animosity and, in almost all cases, it's animosity for it's own sake.

I confess that i derive a certain amount of entertainment from this. But mostly it is because i hate this vapid, bourgeois environment the modern West likes to impose everywhere, an environment that is highly cultured and possibly even cerebral, but not particularly intelligent and mostly devoid of anything related to meaning and realization of any kind. Like David Bentley Hart mentioned in one of his books (forgot which), the sickness of the West is partly due the metaphysical poverty of this industrial and consumerist society we have created for ourselves, which breeds nothing but apathy and boredom.

[Mirror Image]

I confess that i derive a certain amount of entertainment from this. But mostly it is because i hate this vapid, bourgeois environment the modern West likes to impose everywhere, an environment that is highly cultured and possibly even cerebral, but not particularly intelligent and mostly devoid of anything related to meaning and realization of any kind. Like David Bentley Hart mentioned in one of his books (forgot which), the sickness of the West is partly due the metaphysical poverty of this industrial and consumerist society we have created for ourselves, which breeds nothing but apathy and boredom.

Well...that's nice, but the question is do you have anything to offer this forum in the way of music and the recommendation of such music? Because, if you don't, then you'll continue to just blow smoke IMHO. Everything you stated above I'm sure makes you quite the hit at dinner parties. Remind me to sit nowhere near you as you come across as one of those self-righteous lunatics who live in a bubble while the rest of the world goes about their day.

[Rinaldo]

Lighten up, folks. Yes, even you, Purusha, you crazy diamond combo of a doomsday preacher and a shmup aficionado. This one's an instant classic:



And I think we can all agree on John Oliver's take on the Paris tragedy.

[kishnevi]

Depends on what you mean by "qualified". Political correctness is your religion, not mine. What matters to me is the actual reality of things, not the dogma. And i find there is a certain dint of irony in the fact it is liberal professors those protesters are after, the very people who inculcated those kids with this idiotic world view.

But to return to the topic at hand, i'd like to address one particular point:

Except modern Islam is essentially an hardened, right-wing reaction to the "liberal" West. It is not so much the bombs that Muslims hate, but western "values" specifically, or rather, a specific set of western values. Namely, your values. The Muslims hate the West for the same exact reason people like me hate the West (or the modern West rather). They hate the West because it is anti-traditional. They hate the West for its secularism. They also hate the West because of Caitlyn Jenner.

The West they did not hate is the West i like. The West of Plato and Aristotle. The West of Charlemagne. See the pattern here? Of course, it would be a mistake to assume the Muslims were "multicultural". They weren't. They believed in the superiority of their ways and their beliefs. So did the Christian West believe in the superiority of its own beliefs and its own ways. But despite being different and exclusive, both civilizations felt a certain kinship with one another, and there was a certain reciprocal respect, even when the one met the other in the battlefield.

What we have now is one deranged civilization imposing itself upon foreign cultures. Some react by becoming themselves deranged. Others go the opposite way, by becoming more tribalistic and right-wing, and Islam is now the most tribalistic and right-wing culture of all. By opening its borders to Islam, the West has signed its own death warrant because two entities which are completely opposite of one another cannot coexist side by side. One is bound to obliterate the other eventually, and i think Islam is better equipped for survival, especially in a war of attrition fought in terms of demographics rather than open arms.

It sounds to me like you would make a very good jihadi.

[The Six]

Purusha is the logical end point of capitalism. His existence is the triumph of capital over creativity; he has no reason to exist beyond adding a simulacrum of novelty to a declining commodity. He is the committee designed end point of a society alienated from the ideas of joy and innovation. To behave as Purusha does i is the ultimate act of false consciousness; you may tell yourself you can engineer some kind of enjoyment when in reality this cynically designed character is playing you.

[Tannhäuser]

That is classic.
Really? Muslims want that, all of them? I suppose you haven't considered that encouraging this mindless hatred of people solely because of their race and creed might lead to a larger percentage of Muslims being attracted by the terrorists' propaganda painting the West as an enemy which must be fought against. And if you honestly think that all Muslims want to destroy arts, classical music and literature, then I suppose you think the archaeologist Khaled al-Asaad was not a Muslim, nor was Rumi, the Persian 13th c. poet who has been among the most popular poets in the US for decades, or Ferdowsi the author the Shahnameh - or any number of Muslim scholars who saved and studied the literature of the Antique when much of it was lost in the post-Roman Empire Europe.
But hey, I am just the dangerous ideologist who doesn't think a war between Christians and Muslims, and their atheist supporters, would be a good idea.

Well... What did I say ? Either a dangerous ideologist... or simply someone who doesn't know anything about the situation. Sorry, but Kuopio, Finland doesn't sound like a place colonized by Muslims like Paris has been for decades. It's easy to give lessons to others when you are actually not at risk at all where you are...

[Tannhäuser]

I have no bone to pick with anyone here about politics or religion as these kinds of discussions so often leave people with a bad taste in their mouths but what happened in Paris is a tragedy and everything should be done to stop such an attack from happening again. These enemies simply need to be hunted down and brought to justice.

Exactly, its the important thing to say and remember here. Hunted down. Brought to justice if possible, eliminated in any case. And these enemies are millions.

[Florestan]

everything should be done to stop such an attack from happening again.

Everything? Like for instance what?

Suppose that ISIS is militarily annihilated on the ground (which, if all sincerely interested parties agreed, could be done in less than a week). Suppose a political agreement is reached in, and over, Syria, and a peaceful process of reconstruction begins (a highly unlikely possibility, that one).

Will there not be in Europe any more mosques fullpacked with radical imams and their brainwashed, fanaticized followers? Will the 751 (seven hundred fifty-one, in case you think it is a typo) zones urbaines sensibles (a typically French euphemism for no-go zones where weapon & drug trafficking and radical islamic propaganda are the only daily business and sharia is the only law) disappear, together with all similar zones in England, Belgium, Sweden or wherever they are? Will there not be somwhere a new group in the making, even more radical than ISIS, bent on, and vowing, revenge?

No doubt, determined and effective military action, wherever and whenever needed, is part of the solution, but with respect to the political (that is, ideological) part, the only strategy the European leaders have applied for decades was the ostrich´s stategy: the deeper one burries one´s head in the sand, the more chances of survival one has.

[Tannhäuser]

Just FYI and as a supplement to Florestan's post, this video that represents only the daily speech in most of the hundreds of mosques in France.

http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/viral-imam-video-music-is-a-creature-of-the-devil/

[Jo498]

But aren't the reasons for that situation rather failed (post)colonial policy, basically the inheritance from a time when
the "West" was directly dominating lots of Muslim countries, and poor urban policies of the last 4 or 5 decades?

I simply don't buy the facile suggestion that those problems could be blamed on recent immigration or "softness on crime". I'd guess that they are based to 60% on failed local/domestic policies (as has been pointed out, Britain, Germany, Belgium and France are actually *exporting" hundreds of European born extremist fighters to the middle eastern war zones!), 30% on failed foreign policies (messing up the near/middle East while cuddling with the Saudis) and maybe 10% "multiculturalist softness".
And do not tell me that the latter is mainly responsible for the former 90% of failed policies. (I actually think that the "multiculturalism" is mostly a right-wing strawman with little impact in practice).

It's a failure of the West, sure. But in a very different way from the strawmen suggested by conservatives.

(I don't know how "soft" the French judicial system is. As someone pointed out elswhere, although with 150 victims from last Friday and Charlie Hebdo the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants in Paris is probably doubled compared to an "average year" it is still fairly low, compared to e.g. Baltimore... So a "tough" policy vs. crime like in the US is not really a panacea either.)

[Florestan]

I don't know how "soft" the French judicial system is.

The Paris Procureur de la Republique already answered this question: the French-born identified terrorist was convicted 8 (eight) times but never went to jail. And problem is that even if he had gone, chances are high that there he would have been just as indoctrinated as he was at large.

[Florestan]

Just FYI and as a supplement to Florestan's post, this video that represents only the daily speech in most of the hundreds of mosques in France.

http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/viral-imam-video-music-is-a-creature-of-the-devil/

This man should immediately and irrevocably be deported in his native country if he is an immigrant. If he is French-born, his citizenship should immediately and irrevocably be retired from him (president Hollande himself suggested as much in his yesterday speech before L´Assemblee Nationale) and he should be asked to leave the country in 24 hours or else face imprisonment. Enough is enough, for God´s sake! Whenever I see free speach and human rights and frreedoms invoked for the protection of those whose goal is precisely to strangle them I am reminded of Lenin´s dictum: The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them, only in this case we don´t even sell, we offer free of charge...

[The new erato]

. If he is French-born, his citizenship should immediately and irrevocably be retired from him (president Hollande himself suggested as much in his yesterday speech before L´Assemblee Nationale) and he should be asked to leave the country in 24 hours

Good luck in finding a country that will acept a man with no citizenship or passport without a need for asylum.......

[Purusha]

But aren't the reasons for that situation rather failed (post)colonial policy, basically the inheritance from a time when the "West" was directly dominating lots of Muslim countries, and poor urban policies of the last 4 or 5 decades?

Same way Israel is responsible for their own problems. Notice of course that Israel does not allow for an open border society, because that would be total suicide for them. What makes you think the rest of the West is different from the position Israel finds itself in at the moment?

Either way, you seem to be missing the point by a mile. The issue is not that the West is being "too soft" with extremists (if anything it is the other way around. French is now dropping bombs like they are going out of style). The problem is that the West has abdicated any right to have a cultural and ethnic identity of its own. Islam belongs to a completely different world. They are never, ever going to "integrate" with a culture that would rather die than assert itself. If it wasn't for the technological superiority of the West they would have already conquered us fair and square. And why shouldn't they? What possible reason do they have to value the West? Everything we do is an affront to their values and beliefs. You really think opening our arms and showering them with kisses and smooches is going to appease not only their resentment against us but also their distaste for a culture which according to their belief system is evil to the core? Or that it is going to overcome the fact for them it is us who is "the other", just in case anyone as forgotten that other races are just as capable of racism and "xenophobia"?

[Florestan]

Good luck in finding a country that will acept a man with no citizenship or passport without a need for asylum.......

Why, he can apply for asylum in Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Pakistan as he is a victim of Western persecution. Good riddance and don´t write back.