Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[Monsieur Croche]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1

lol. Read in the upper left-hand box the ''Composition Types.''

One of them is ''Film Scores,'' though those are in the highest number of his overall output, they are still the one genre apart from his listed classical comps. I.e. the site clearly mentions and separates them from his classical works and qualifies them as 'film score.'

Once again, we have it confirmed, even on a site with intent on informing about and selling both classical and film score recordings...
His film scores are not classical; his classical pieces are not film scores... yawn.

[Brahmsian]

lol. Read in the upper left-hand box the ''Composition Types.''

One of them is ''Film Scores,'' though those are in the highest number of his overall output, they are still the one genre apart from his listed classical comps. I.e. the site clearly mentions and separates them from his classical works and qualifies them as 'film score.'

If he hadn't composed those classical pieces, I doubt he would be listed on that site.

Once again, we have it confirmed, by a classical music site...
His film scores are not classical; his classical pieces are not film scores... yawn.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1

[Monsieur Croche]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1

I quickly edited my post after looking up Bernard Herrman on the same site. The thrust of the site is, still, directly or indirectly, marketing stuff to sell.

The Bernard Herrman listing is heavily laden with a looong list of works, almost all his film scores, with but one or two of his classical pieces [he wrote more], and none of it really broken down to genre, film score or otherwise.

The listings are not, then, consistent in format from one to the next, at all, and seem to generally be about marketing what is available to the public.

Ahhhh, the internet, where even those of us who are a bit cautious can think that if it is in virtual print on a somewhat credible appearing site, it must be a fact.

[relm1]

We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.

Not that I'm keeping track but so far there is a stipulation that:
1. Writing good music is not a requirement to be a concert composer (not that this is relevant to this topic but it keeps coming up and is repeatedly conceded).
2. Programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph (it behooves the organizers to include audience friendly programming to remain viable)

And then we need to agree on this:
3. Originality is less important than individuality and is not a requirement for a composer (otherwise 99% of composers we all love wouldn't qualify).
4. Music adapted for purposes of concert performance in classical settings from a non classical origin (eg: West Side Story, Scott of Antarctica) could be classical music.

So now, the question is where do you draw the line for point 4?  I believe that Justin Bieber adapted for the London Philharmonic would NOT be classical music so maybe we are all in agreement after all and this is a discussion of degree.

I think by the time we're at page 90 of this thread we'll be in agreement...

[Monsieur Croche]

Not that I'm keeping track but so far there is a stipulation that:
1. Writing good music is not a requirement to be a concert composer (not that this is relevant to this topic but it keeps coming up and is repeatedly conceded).

Gabriel Pierne / Carl Jenkins / John Rutter / ca. half of Shostakovich / Howard Hanson / Anton Rubenstein, that having named but a few. The lesser than these are the hundreds no one even bothers to list as having been an active part of the scene in some prior musical eras. So, sure, there have been second and third-rate composers as well as quite a number of flat-out hacks who had full careers along with their moments in the sun.

2. Programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph (it behooves the organizers to include audience friendly programming to remain viable.)

Unless I was mistaken, that was meant to be deeply sardonic as well as an expression of regret over the free-fall in matters of quality that kind of programming signals due to the tastes and attention spans of a newer generation of audience as consumers.

And then we need to agree on this:
3. Originality is less important than individuality and is not a requirement for a composer (otherwise 99% of composers we all love wouldn't qualify).

Novelty for its own sake, without something of substance to back it up, generally determines its own fate of a fast fadeout into total obscurity, or at most a minor historical footnote.
If we will all be realistic for a moment, and not kidults, while everyone is indeed 'individual' we have to concede the truth we already know... that not all individuals are born equal, and some individuals are going to be found to be of infinitely greater interest than others. Same goes for the varied quality of individualism of composers. [Delius vs. Poulenc / Michael Gordon vs. Steve Reich] There. P.C. promoted myth cookie, crumbled.
...A perfectly realized dramatization on both this and your first point, Salieri, the most popular composer throughout Europe, contrasted with the usurper of that status, Mozart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlPQD04tn88

4. Music adapted for purposes of concert performance in classical settings from a non classical origin (eg: West Side Story, Scott of Antarctica) could be classical music.
So now, the question is where do you draw the line for point 4?  I believe... maybe we are all in agreement after all and this is a discussion of degree.

This is a matter of degrees. The Bernstein Dances is already an anomoly in situ aside its less than average yet fully mainstream set of Broadway Musical 'show tunes.' Lenny 'slipped that one in,' and its not being a vocal number, he 'got away with it' in that context of show music. It lifts readily out of context, like some other dance/ballet music, and sits well enough in the concert hall. [I still call it 'show music,' but that doesn't stop me from thinking it works in a concert context.] Vaughan William's piece is not his best, but he was a highly adept symphonist, so had the tools to rework that score into a passable symphony.

I think by the time we're at page 90 of this thread we'll be in agreement...

I'm a near bona fide Pollyana-type optimist, but you outstrip me in thinking that any real agreement here might be reached by page... not that I am keeping track, either.


Best regards.

[kishnevi]

Does this mean we should move this thread into the Diner?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8728.0/topicseen.html

[Monsieur Croche]

Does this mean we should move this thread into the Diner?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8728.0/topicseen.html

Nawwww. Consider this thread, in the Beginner's Category, like a bit of benevolent hazing where the pledges are left to think they have a vote in rewriting the books on musical genres [unaware they are bumbling about in trying to re-categorize already intelligently and reasonably set categories and genres], or as I've seen elsewhere, redefining 'what Romantic' is as applied to classical music vs. the accepted musicological/historic usage... and hey, it is a bit safe to also assume that is a ditto for 'Neoclassical,' too. It is often in the stumbling about that people learn a lot, myself included.

Most people truly interested in something they are not so versed in will eventually pick up, on their own and from others, the basics and further, so no harm really done. Unless you think the mods or a software bot should detain and reroute such questions as the OP, tantamount to forcing instruction on those members [''Me teacher; you student''] -- which seems to me more than a little depriving of the ''voluntary'' element... those who are yet uncertain or undecided will eventually come to that thread headed ''film music'' or some other post, and still, I prefer they be free to make their own conclusions.

I revel in a forum whose members are a total olio range from the well-informed, both the autodidact and the academic and the professionally experienced with the whole nine yards of wax-and-seals creds [and the fact those creds are rarely put on parade to 'prove their authority,' makes for a very nice take it or leave it situation, thank you very much] through to the neophytes who come here with their ardent curiosities about things classical [''I like heavy metal and want to know about more classical, what do you guys recommend''] and all the like, freely interacting in a near anarchic -- the ideal sort, not the pejorative mistaken usage -- and friendly environment.


Best regards.

[relm1]

This is a nice example of Star Wars being used to introduce classical music to a broader audience:

https://soundcloud.com/classicalclassroom/classicalclassroom-show115-bmitchell-starwars201final

Houston Public Media classical music librarian, Dacia Clay has a secret: she knows next to nothing about classical music. But she wants to learn! Luckily, she's surrounded by classical music experts every day. In each episode of the Classical Classroom, Dacia's colleagues and some local classical music luminaries take turns giving her classical music "homework assignments". You'll learn about everything from bel canto aria to the use of leitmotif in the score to Star Wars. Come learn with us in the Classical Classroom.

Yes, it is very basic but it is great for people like my non-musician friends and family.

[Monsieur Croche]

This is a nice example of Star Wars being used to introduce classical music to a broader audience:

https://soundcloud.com/classicalclassroom/classicalclassroom-show115-bmitchell-starwars201final

Houston Public Media classical music librarian, Dacia Clay has a secret: she knows next to nothing about classical music. But she wants to learn! Luckily, she's surrounded by classical music experts every day. In each episode of the Classical Classroom, Dacia's colleagues and some local classical music luminaries take turns giving her classical music "homework assignments". You'll learn about everything from bel canto aria to the use of leitmotif in the score to Star Wars. Come learn with us in the Classical Classroom.

Yes, it is very basic but it is great for people like my non-musician friends and family.

That is probably parsecs ahead of torturing the poor little tykes with Till Eulenspiegel right off the bat

[Florestan]

That is probably parsecs ahead of torturing the poor little tykes with Til Eulenspiegel right off the bat

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Never mind Star wars soundtracks, what about his scores to Indiana Jones movies? "Map room: dawn" from Raiders is immensely effective piece.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Just kidding: I love star wars soundtracks. But they often tend to overshadow his other great works such as in this case Indiana Jones OST:s.

[Monsieur Croche]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?

Everythang....

[Monsieur Croche]

Never mind Star wars soundtracks, what about his scores to Indiana Jones movies? "Map room: dawn" from Raiders is immensely effective piece.

Ultimately and as usual, this is all a matter of personal opinion. I don't think anywhere through this thread has anyone flat-out said John Williams was not an effective film composer, film scoring having been the majority of work he has done.

I think I've seen all the Indiana Jones flicks, and don't recall, either, thinking while watching at any place in those movies, ''Hmmm, the scoring and/or underscoring seems wildly inappropriate.''

On its own [I listened to the segment] it is to me just more of that oleo of styles derivative of any number of earlier classical composers and/or other already existing generic film music, the combined gestures, whichever genre was the source, are now like coins of the realm -- pennies which have passed through and been similarly spent by many a hand.

Musically, self-standing, I thought, 'meh,' where in the film context it probably did its job and certainly did not distract. That is the majority of what film music is and does; I find Williams' output there no different, i.e. does its job, mainly 'does not distract,' and where called for, 'drives the scene.' Apart from when in context of the films of which the music is a part, none of his film score music -- to me -- holds any charge or interest on its own. Isolated, imo, it sounds like upscale cheese on a shtick.


Best regards.

[mc ukrneal]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?

Obviously, you didn't see the diatribe against tone poems....

[knight66]

Not that this is about the topic of the conversation: but, when I was young, a generation ago, the critical temperature regarding Richard Strauss was very different in the UK than it is now. Then he seemed to be regarded as a guilty pleasure, you listen to Also Sprach at a concert, then go home and wash youself down in Dettol. He was regarded somewhat as a supreme orchestrator with largely empty music. Good for films probably. I have not read those kinds of caveats for years. His place in the musical structures seems to have changed. Partly it may have been an underlying dislike of him remaining in and working in Germany during WWII and perhaps that has faded from the minds of the UK critics by now.

Mike

[Monsieur Croche]

Not that this is about the topic of the conversation: but, when I was young, a generation ago, the critical temperature regarding Richard Strauss was very different in the UK than it is now. Then he seemed to be regarded as a guilty pleasure, you listen to Also Sprach at a concert, then go home and wash youself down in Dettol. He was regarded somewhat as a supreme orchestrator with largely empty music. Good for films probably. I have not read those kinds of caveats for years. His place in the musical structures seems to have changed. Partly it may have been an underlying dislike of him remaining in and working in Germany during WWII and perhaps that has faded from the minds of the UK critics by now.

Mike

I think that sort of aversion about the political was far less in the States, i.e. R. Strauss' concert works were programmed often enough through the post-war decades, including the less-frequently occurring Burlesque for two pianos and orchestra and the Oboe Concerto.

It is likely the resentment in the U.S. was less because, although from that war there were crazy and horrible losses in the personal memories of many Americans, no one 'at home' had lived through having their city bombed, for example. [Post war, the U.S. got half of the German scientists -- responsible for developing so many of those tools of destruction -- and the Soviets got the other half.] The U.S. got a lot of refugee composers, pre and post-war, and maybe that also had something to do with the general atmosphere being more open to the works by those who had remained in Germany.

The opposite of what you report seems to be the case here, i.e. Strauss' concert music, post sixties and certainly by the seventies, is less frequently performed than it was up through the sixties, as if it has somewhat faded from 'the general tastes, or fashion,' all on its own.

Through the 'fifties and sixties, other than Copland, Strauss may have been one of the more regularly programmed of living composers in the States, I think in part because he was both 'contemporary' yet so near to completely romantic -- which 'back then' went down far more easily and more readily with the general public than say Bartok or even Shostakovich.

His strongest contribution, imo, is none of the symphonic works, but is the operas. Those do seem to have been for a long time a routine part of the regularly performed rep wherever there is a decent sized opera house with a full enough season.

[knight66]

Probably we are diverting this thread, so I won't say much. I agree that Strauss's most significant pieces are his operas. But beyond the obvious handful, he has a hinterland of quite difficult pieces that are rarely performed. These show a serious composer striving to get ideas out there and in many cases ignoring commercial needs.

Thread duty: perhaps his increasing acceptance here is influenced by the enjoyment of the blockbuster concert with huge orchestral pieces on display. His music is echoed by quite a bit of film music. It might be that promoters are influenced by the enjoyment of the big film scores to put on the closest classical equivalent.

Over here we had Ken Russel who made films about musicians whenre he used the relevent composer's music and often choreographed the action around the music. He had quite a noticable impact on how music was used in a visual medium. I wonder if he had influence on any modern American directors?

Mike

[Florestan]

Everythang....

Deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis. Not that I expected any less, but still, your contributions to this board are of the highest quality. It would really have been a pity not to have you among us.

[Monsieur Croche]

Deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis. Not that I expected any less, but still, your contributions to this board are of the highest quality. It would really have been a pity not to have you among us.

I had no intent of making a deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis.

It was Till Eulenspiegel we were talking about, a piece which could be arrested for public exposure because 'explanatory self-exposure' is built into it and nothing further about it needs to be said when and where ever it shows up in sound, in person.

When asked ''what is wrong with... ,''  I went straight to my heartfelt and truthful answer, saved everyone time.