Your favorite recordings of Beethoven's 9th symphony

[Mark]

Why, thank you.

[Brian]

I can't speak for Beethoven 9ths, but I have over 100 Goldbergs and know each intimately.  All you gotta do is listen.

I too am impressed. I have one Goldberg, and it is too many. You have earned my mystified admiration. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Unfortunately, most of the HIPsters have subscribed to Norrington's misguided interpretation of the Turkish alla Marcia section of the last movement to be played as a Marche Funebre, which ruins the whole thing for me.

It isn't played as a dirge at all, Gurn. It's paced exactly like a military march...which is what it is: a march. (For some odd reason conductors and listeners who have never been in the military have a weird concept of how fast people can walk for a long distance  ) And of course Norrington is following Beethoven's tempo indication anyway. The Turkish section, which seemed silly to me in most performances I heard because it was played too fast, rendering it comical, suddenly made complete sense at Norrington's...i.e., Beethoven's...tempo. I think the entire movement is perfectly paced in Norrington's performance. I especially like the less than frantic presto conclusion where you can finally hear the tympani rhythm clearly and cleanly. So much more exciting than the usual chaos one hears.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

I too am impressed. I have one Goldberg, and it is too many.

I've got a mere three;  and while I do like them all, I have no plans to seek out a fourth soon.

[karlhenning]

It isn't played as a dirge at all, Gurn.

A frank tangent, of course;  but I learn this morning that dirge is a corruption of the incipit of an Antiphon from the Missa pro defunctis:

dirige, Domine, Deus meus, in conspectu tuo viam meam.

"Direct, O Lord my God, my way in thy sight."

So the source is the same as for dirigible, and the state motto of Maine (Dirigo).

As you were, gents . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

It isn't played as a dirge at all, Gurn. It's paced exactly like a military march...which is what it is: a march. (For some odd reason conductors and listeners who have never been in the military have a weird concept of how fast people can walk for a long distance  ) And of course Norrington is following Beethoven's tempo indication anyway. The Turkish section, which seemed silly to me in most performances I heard because it was played too fast, rendering it comical, suddenly made complete sense at Norrington's...i.e., Beethoven's...tempo. I think the entire movement is perfectly paced in Norrington's performance. I especially like the less than frantic presto conclusion where you can finally hear the tympani rhythm clearly and cleanly. So much more exciting than the usual chaos one hears.

Sarge

No Sarge, I think that it might be the right idea, but in Norrington's first effort, he simply went too far with it. You say it is comical in its usual method of being performed too fast. Yes, it can be. But it is equally comical when performed too slow, and IMO, that's what happens here. To be sure, Norrington himself admitted as much, and in his more recent venture he picked up the pace just a tad. I haven't heard that one, but I have been told that the fault is corrected.

Even at brisk pace, good players don't really sound chaotic, but they do tend to miss the point sometimes.

[Sergeant Rock]

My favorite Ninths (favs all over the interpretive universe):

Norrington/London Classical Players

Dohnányi/Cleveland

Szell/Cleveland

Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Celibidache/Munich Phil

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

No Sarge, I think that it might be the right idea, but in Norrington's first effort, he simply went too far with it. You say it is comical in its usual method of being performed too fast. Yes, it can be. But it is equally comical when performed too slow, and IMO, that's what happens here.

I think most hear it as comical only because we're used to hearing it played so much faster. Once you become used to it,  and can accept that its based on Janissary marches (or if you have the pace of the military quick march already drilled into your soul like I do) it sounds natural. By the way, the same reasoning explains why Glenn Gould's performance of Mozart's Turkish March from the K.331 sonata is one of the few to get it right...even though it sounds way too slow to most folks.

To be sure, Norrington himself admitted as much, and in his more recent venture he picked up the pace just a tad

I know he did...the wimp caved in to his critics 

Seriously, the tempo in the Players' version seems perfect to me. Try it: cue up the march, grab one of your rifles, shoulder it, and start marching around the room. You'll see it's a perfect marching pace....same tempo as a Jody call.

Even at brisk pace, good players don't really sound chaotic

Heard Furtwängler's Berliners or his Bayreuth crew? 

Sarge

[Harry]

Karajan, the sixties recording.
Gardiner
Norrington
Zinman.

[Renfield]

Hmm... I've posted the 9ths I have, but did I post my favourites at any point in this thread? I think I did, but let me update the list:


1) Furtwangler/Philharmonia




2) Karajan/BPO (1970's)
3) Vänskä/Minnesota Symphony Orchestra
4) Furtwangler/Bayreuth Festival Orchestra
5) Klemperer/Philharmonia (Live)



(With Karajan/BPO from the 1960's, Szell/Cleveland, Furtwängler/BPO, either of the Toscanini/NBC, and Abbado/BPO on DG not far behind. Sadly, I've yet to hear the Dohnanyi. )

Edit: Though both the Celibidache/Munich and the Karajan/VPO deserve at least "honourable mentions" in my list of favourites.

[Keemun]

Of the Beethoven 9ths that I have, these are my favorites:

Karajan/BPO (1960s)
Wand/North German Radio Orchestra
Furtwangler/Bayreuth Orchestra


And these are on my wishlist:

Karajan/BPO (1970s)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland Orchestra
Fricsay/BPO

[Renfield]

Of the Beethoven 9ths that I have, these are my favorites:

Karajan/BPO (1960s)
Wand/North German Radio Orchestra
Furtwangler/Bayreuth Orchestra


And these are on my wishlist:

Karajan/BPO (1970s)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland Orchestra
Fricsay/BPO

That one I also don't have, but I've heard it's more hype than actual substance, regarding the first three movements. And Beethoven's 9th isn't the fourth part alone...

[Gurn Blanston]

I think most hear it as comical only because we're used to hearing it played so much faster. Once you become used to it,  and can accept that its based on Janissary marches (or if you have the pace of the military quick march already drilled into your soul like I do) it sounds natural. By the way, the same reasoning explains why Glenn Gould's performance of Mozart's Turkish March from the K.331 sonata is one of the few to get it right...even though it sounds way too slow to most folks.

Yes, preconception can certainly enter into it. But there is a feeling of inherent rightness in a slightly faster tempo. Try Hogwood, for example. Slower than the usual, but faster than Norrington. That sounds about right to me.

I know he did...the wimp caved in to his critics 

Hmmm, I didn't know he put so much stock in my posts.

Seriously, the tempo in the Players' version seems perfect to me. Try it: cue up the march, grab one of your rifles, shoulder it, and start marching around the room. You'll see it's a perfect marching pace....same tempo as a Jody call.

OK, but I only had an Enfield .303 readily available, that's as near a military rifle as I can muster, even though made by Brits.    Well, yes, it is an easy pace. But then this deer popped out...

Heard Furtwängler's Berliners or his Bayreuth crew? 

No, I don't do antique recordings. The oldest 9th I have is the Berliners with Jochum, I think from 1956 or so. I take little pleasure in that post-Romantic style, although I don't deny anyone their pleasures. Listen to MacKerras and the Liverpoolers, that's a nice pace. Gardiner is a titch fast, although I like it. Still, if you are going ack into the remote reaches of time, I can imagine chaos of biblical proportions...

Cheers,

[dirkronk]

OK, I'm joining in late, mainly because I have little new to add from the last thread that surveyed this piece, but since there are some newer members here...

First, a survey of the LvB 9th versions I have on CD:

BEETHOVEN 9TH SYMPHONY PERFORMANCES

Abendroth            -  Leipzig '50
                          -  Leipzig '39—movement iv only
Bernstein                -  VPO live c.1980
Busch       -  Danish RSO 1950
Cluytens      -  Berlin PO   
Fricsay      -  Berlin Phil; Seefried, Forrester, Haefliger, Fischer-Dieskau
Fried      -  LvB sym.9 (Berlin 1929)   
Furtwangler   -  Berlin March 22/24, 1942
      -  Berlin Hitler b'day April 19, 1942   
      -  Bayreuth Fest '51      
      -  Philharmonia Orch, Lucerne '54
Gardiner      -  Orch Revolutionnaire & Romantique
Karajan      -  Berlin PO 1963
Klemperer   -  Live w/Philh.O 11/15/57
Koussevitsky   -  Boston SO--Inauguration of Shed at Tanglewood August 4, 1938   
Markevitch   -  Orch des Concerts Lamoureux 1961
Mengelberg   -  COA--May 1, 1938               
                          -  COA--May 31, 1938 AVRO
                          -  COA--AVRO 1940
Reiner      -  CSO
Scherchen   -  ViennaSOO
Stokowski   -  Philadelphia '34
Szell      -  Cleveland Orch            
                          -  VPO live 1969
Toscanini                -  NBC Radio Broadcast 1939
                          -  NBC '50s
                          -  Live '41 Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires
Walter      -  NYPO—'41
Weingartner   -  LSO 1926
      -  Vienna 1935
Zinman      -  Zurich Tonhalle Orch

This, of course, doesn't count the versions I have on LP (which include, OTTOMH, Munch/Boston, a different Koussevitzky, Monteux, Leibowitz/RPO, Furtwangler's London '37 and Stockholm '43, Giulini and vinyl copies of several of the above...plus at least a couple that I know I'm forgetting). It also doesn't count the rather large number of versions I once owned, but purged from the collection years ago (Solti, Bernstein/NY, Karajan '70s, Schmidt-Isserstedt, Jochum, Klemperer studio, Ormandy, Stokowski/LSO, Ansermet, Dorati and more that I can't even recall).

No, I don't know ALL of them well enough to critique in detail, but the standouts for my taste would be:

- Mengelberg/COA 1940 AVRO. If you like the precision and the "all of one piece" characteristics of the classic Szell/Cleveland, this is a version you MUST hear, since it offers even greater turn-on-a-dime precision, frequently more poetic phrasing, great power and control, and segues of such an intuitive nature that you'll simply catch your breath. In fact, listen to Szell, then to this; I'd swear that Szell studied this one before recording his Cleveland account. If possible, hear the three-sided vinyl version on Philips; in terms of sound and detail, the transfers on my early M&A CDs and on at least two cheapie CD labels I've heard simply don't do justice to the performance in comparison. Perhaps later transfers have been better? Oh...and the two 1938 Mengelberg versions are utterly different from the 1940--still controlled, but much faster and phrased without the same finesse.

- Furtwangler/Berlin 1942 (March, not April). One of a kind and devastating, as anyone who's heard it can attest. Some rail against it, for one reason or another. Personally, I can only listen to it once, maybe twice a year. But none of this can keep me from listing it among my absolute favorites. As Tony (sidoze) has stated, the Hitler birthday bash version from a month later is even wilder...manic, really...but this specific version is the one that makes my jaw clench, my heart ache and my eyes tear up every time I listen.

- Szell/Cleveland. I continue to favor this over most stereo versions, though Fricsay's has begun to win me over as well. Szell's is not perfect, but I find it very appealing, not least because it progresses in such a natural way through every movement (at least to my ears). German pronunciation by the singers in iv is problematic...unless you don't speak German (in this case, my ignorance is bliss). I've owned the Szell in original Epic gold radial label (3 side) LPs, Epic blue label (3 side) LPs, Columbia (3 side) LPs, Odyssey (2 side) LP, Odyssey analog cassette, Odyssey digital cassette and CD. In the Epic gold radial, genuine sonic splendors can be found, along with a coherence in iv that seems shakier or more tentative in other transfers; the blue label offers cleaner pressings but slightly less detail; the analog cassette is probably next in line for sonic quality (!) though well behind the Epic vinyl; the CD transfer is...well, different--perhaps a matter of balance as well as detail--but still enjoyable. The Odyssey 2-side and the digital cassette are dreck.

- Leibowitz/RPO. This is what I refer to as a clean-your-palate performance, sonically very good, and with interpretive twists to keep your attention from flagging. Not sure if I'd classify it as great, but I really do like it.

I need to revisit Toscanini, whose 9ths I haven't heard in quite a while.

Same with Karajan's '63--though this was once high on my list, last time I heard it I was disappointed in what seemed the near-train-wreck disconnect between Herbie and the orchestra in a good part of i and for at least a short part of ii; this was obviously part of the ultra-fast pacing that Karajan set, but its execution sounded more awkward to my ears than I'd remembered from many past listenings. Also, re sonics: although the aural hall perspective of the DGG recording is more natural than HvK's later versions, the clarity and detail weren't as impressive as I'd like. However, as I say, a re-listen is in order.

I haven't heard enough of the HIP versions to have a favorite yet. Perhaps a listening marathon when I take vacation in a few weeks...


FWIW.

Dirk

[val]

My favorite versions of the 9th, are:

Above all, Furtwängler (Bayreuth 1951), with an extraordinary first movement, almost "cosmic".

Then, Furtwängler with the BPO in 1942 (and the Choir of Bruno Kettel): terrible testimony of the war, the last movement becomes a sort of Dies Irae. As usual in Furtwängler, the phrasing of the Adagio seems poor, too tense.

Karl Böhm with the VPO (Placido Domingo among the soloists). Beautiful sound, large phrasing (but not too slow), serenity, and a Finale very turned to the opera.

Giulini with the LSO, a synthesis between Furtwängler 51 and Böhm with one of the most sublime Adagio ever heard.

Karl Böhm again, and with the VPO (among the soloists Jess Thomas and Ridderbusch). More solemn, perhaps too classic and distant, but a perfect architecture, in special in the last movement (but he will do better in his last version).

[Lethevich]

Abendroth  -  Leipzig '50

Is this the Berlin Classics one (also in the Die Letzen Symphonien box)? If so, then that's a neat performance - Abendroth is a really unpretentious and solid conductor.

[Renfield]

Is this the Berlin Classics one (also in the Die Letzen Symphonien box)? If so, then that's a neat performance - Abendroth is a really unpretentious and solid conductor.

Indeed, the Tahra Furtwängler "Beethoven 9th" set uses Abendroth's 9th for some of the cross-comparisons in the fourth disc.

And given that they mention his name (versus "conductor's name withheld), it would appears that they approve of him!

[dirkronk]

Is this the Berlin Classics one (also in the Die Letzen Symphonien box)?

Not sure if it's the same 9th. My copy is in the Music & Arts 4-CD set of "Unissued Broadcast Performances 1939-50." All interesting performances in that box, which also includes an Eroica, Schumann 4th, Brahms 4th, a Beethoven 4th piano concerto with Kempff and another couple of items--all live, as the title indicates. Based on my experience with these, I've begun to gather other Abendroth performances as I can find them.   

Cheers,

Dirk

[DB]

1st)  Karajan 1976, with the greatest coda ever in the last movement.
2nd)  Klemperer 60's recording on EMI
3th)  Karajan 1963, for Janowitz is the best in the finale.

kindest regards,
DB

[Lilas Pastia]

By all forms of analysis, the 9th is a beast of a work. It's easily the biggest, longest, most strange and unwieldy work of music put before the public when it was first performed. IMO very few performances have encompassed the work's manifold aspects in a comprehensive and truly exciting way. I've heard 3 Furtwängler and 2 Toscanini performances, all much vaunted, but I didn't connect with any of them. Karajan in 1963 and  1977 came closest to covering all the bases, if without an overarching sense of having reached for über'm Sternenzelt. His is very much a human, immediate and of-the-moment vision. As has been noted, Böhm's two DG versions do have that far-reaching, far-flung and elysean vision. But the hero is a Moses, not a Joshuah. A good combination of these two approaches is Fricsay's. All told, it's probably the one I would choose. But both Karajan, Böhm and no doubt a few others go farther in certain aspects of the work. It's probably the nature of the work that it remains elusive, and that no definitive version will ever be made.