Democracy and postmodernism

[Florestan]

Ok, Sean, let's say you circumscribed the problem. Now I want to hear your solution. What should be done in order to stop these trends?

[Sean]

Hi Florestan, I must have been in a foul mood ranting on like that. Well, how to organize society is one of the oldest questions, but I think some kind of return to a hierarchy with better defined roles for people, and more guidance for them and not asking them what they think when they don't know, is the way forward. Ultimately the masses want to think the powers above are doing a good job and embrace the highest values: for instance many employees will always run down their boss but at the same time want them to be making good decisions, and make the employees feel they're part of something that's working well.

[Florestan]

some kind of return to a hierarchy with better defined roles for people, and more guidance for them and not asking them what they think when they don't know, is the way forward. Ultimately the masses want to think the powers above are doing a good job and embrace the highest values

I'm sorry, Sean, but this is the golden dream of all dictators: an enlightened ruling elite feeding the masses and keeping them ignorant and quiet.

Thanks, but no, thanks.

[Sean]

The masses are already ignorant and quiet- they don't have anything meaningful to say and really want someone to see things and say things for them.

[Florestan]

The masses are already ignorant and quiet- they don't have anything meaningful to say and really want someone to see things and say things for them.

And that someone would be you, right?

[Sean]

Or someone like me. As I say, I'm in good company here with Plato's Republic, and his distinct notion that some are better at leadership than others.

[Ephemerid]

The masses are already ignorant and quiet- they don't have anything meaningful to say and really want someone to see things and say things for them.

You could always just gas 'em, I suppose.  Worthless moronic bastards!

Plato's not the only "good company" you're in... 

[Florestan]

Or someone like me. As I say, I'm in good company here with Plato's Republic, and his distinct notion that some are better at leadership than others.

May I ask what specific achievements qualify you as a better leader than others?

[Sean]

Hard to say what insight is. Something to do with consciousness...

[Florestan]

One last question and I'm done, Sean: do you believe, in all earnest, that the world would be a better place should you be in charge of it?

[longears]

One last question and I'm done, Sean: do you believe, in all earnest, that the world would be a better place should you be in charge of it?

The hilarious thing is that he thinks that in his society with "enlightened leadership" he would be among the rulers, rather than in a position for which his talents suit him.    

[Ephemerid]

What I would like to know is how exactly do you distinguish the Enlightened Ones from The Horde^TM?  What criteria would you use to determine this?  How many books one has read and comprehended? How many languages one knows? How much classical composers one has heard?  What is the standard of objective measurement here?

[Hector]

Tyranny of the majority may be a problem in nascent democracies, but the strong emphasis on individual liberties in US constitution protects the rights of the minority.

Where?

The Constitution protects the rights of the individual.

European democracies have adopted a more democratic system whereby the minority vote is, for the most part, guaranteed representation.

[Florestan]

What I would like to know is how exactly do you distinguish the Enlightened Ones from The Horde^TM?  What criteria would you use to determine this?  How many books one has read and comprehended? How many languages one knows? How much classical composers one has heard?  What is the standard of objective measurement here?

I'd like to know that, too.

[head-case]

Where?

The Constitution protects the rights of the individual.

European democracies have adopted a more democratic system whereby the minority vote is, for the most part, guaranteed representation.

The minority in the US is represented in the Congress in proportion to their numbers.  The rules of the House and Senate give the minority tools for interfering with the passage of legislation (i.e., at various points more than a simple majority is needed to proceed). There is a balance between giving minorities a voice and preventing the minority from paralyzing the government.  I don't see that parliamentary democracies have any particular advantage in this respect.  The rights granted to individuals protect the minority since the minority is composed of individuals.
 

[Sean]

The standard of measurement isn't one of 'intellect' or 'knowledge' but insight, which is related to levels of awareness in some way. I do have some philosophy on this, perhaps for another thread. If it was a matter of knowledge you could program computers with it and get them to give you answers, but they're not alive.

Certainly I think the world would be better with me in charge- there's so much I'd want to do.

One parting remark on this. Barack Obama would make a fairly good US leader. Hence, with democratic forces wanting instead someone they can more immediately relate to and just says what they want to hear, I predict they will take steps either to assassinate him, or cause some kind of electoral fraud to ensure he looses: either way the completely unsuitable and malleable Clinton will get the job.

[Florestan]

Certainly I think the world would be better with me in charge- there's so much I'd want to do.

Please name three specific actions you'd take twenty-four hours after you're in command.

[M forever]

The hilarious thing is that he thinks that in his society with "enlightened leadership" he would be among the rulers, rather than in a position for which his talents suit him.    

That is very true, very funny, and very mean of you to point out. I give you 10 points for this subtle, masterful, yet devastating putdown.

What kind of job would he be assigned to in a society with "enlightened leadership"? I could see him as one of those people who hold the door open for guests at a hotel. What do you call that again?

If he got into a position of total leadership, well, we already know what the effects would be: tens of millions of dead people. His mental makeup closely resembles that of many dictators like Stalin or Hitler, the paranoia, the failed artistic/intellectual ambitions, the inability to reflect on himself and his ideas critically, the idea that he completely understands the world and knows how it all should go etcetc, it's all there, even though only in miniature (fortunately, I guess). He is definitely not as smart as any of these evil people.

[head-case]

That is very true, very funny, and very mean of you to point out. I give you 10 points for this subtle, masterful, yet devastating putdown.

What kind of job would he be assigned to in a society with "enlightened leadership"? I could see him as one of those people who hold the door open for guests at a hotel. What do you call that again?

If he got into a position of total leadership, well, we already know what the effects would be: tens of millions of dead people. His mental makeup closely resembles that of many dictators like Stalin or Hitler, the paranoia, the failed artistic/intellectual ambitions, the inability to reflect on himself and his ideas critically, the idea that he completely understands the world and knows how it all should go etcetc, it's all there, even though only in miniature (fortunately, I guess). He is definitely not as smart as any of these evil people.

As I mentioned earlier, Chairman Mao and the great leap forward springs to mind.  Of course the comparison is not valid because Mao actually came to power, he didn't just sit on the margins of society sniveling about the injustice that he wasn't in charge.

[M forever]

Yes, and Mao also liked to mess around with really young girls.