What are you currently reading?

[istanbul]

Baruch Spinoza,
Correspondences with Blyenberg.
(Evil letters)

[Lethevich]

                                                       (Thomas More - Utopia)

The latter was a purchase under duress - I had some time to blow in town, so browsed a book shop, and noticed the staff occasionally looking in my direction. I then realised that I was carrying a plastic bag full of books, which I intended to donate to a charity shop on my way home. Even worse, I was prudent enough to look after them so that they appeared in new condition, and were by an author I had been browing on the shelves. Simply put, if I tried to walk out without buying something, I could've had a lot of difficult explaining to do, so I bought the hideously overpriced Penguin book. £7 for 100 pages? Shame I don't like Dickens...

[Brian]

Two books:

The Faith of a Heretic by Walter Kaufmann. A masterpiece: reading slowly to savor it.
The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doidge. Fascinating book on neuroplasticity (and how our brains can adapt and alter their own structures): reading quickly to get back to Kaufmann (and because of a very easy writing style).

[greg]

I'm starting the Republic! 
Finished the Apology this week....

[mahler10th]

The Tao Te Ching is a constant support.

[DavidRoss]

When the Way prevails under the heavens,
Farm horses spread manure in the fields.
When the Way is missing from the world,
War horses breed in the wastelands.

No sin is worse than encouraging desire,
No misfortune greater than discontent,
No fault more grievous than covetousness.

Hence, know that enough is enough
And there will always be enough.

[hildegard]

                       46

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

Whoever can see through all fear
will always be safe.

"If I haven't always traslated Lao-tzu's words, my intention has always been to translate his mind."
                                                                                                            Stephen Mitchell

[mahler10th]

46

In a country where Tao is understood, there are carthorses.
In a country where Tao is ignored, there are warhorses.

The gratest mistake is to be ruled by desire.
The greatest curse is to be discontent.

Getting what you want may be the greatest misfortune.
Appreciate what you have and you will always have enough.

[DavidRoss]

"If I haven't always traslated Lao-tzu's words, my intention has always been to translate his mind."
                                                                                                            Stephen Mitchell

I rather like much of what Mitchell has done, and have recommended his lovely book at times and even given it as a gift on a couple of occasions.  It is far from a translation, however, and it a bit corrupted by Zen ideas.  My translation was made from copies of the oldest extant texts, the Han dynasty scrolls found at Ma Wang Tui, which predate the common received text by hundreds of years and presumably are less subject to intentional interpolations and copyists' errors.  The challenge is not only to make a closely accurate word-for-word translation that preserves the poetry as near as possible, but that also preserves the meaning or range of meanings current in classical Chinese circa 500 BC. 

The quote from Mitchell above is good as far as it goes--but note that in order to translate Lao Tzu's mind, he must first understand it.  His take on "Chapter 46," presented above, shows just how far awry his understanding can be.

[mahler10th]

I rather like much of what Mitchell has done, and have recommended his lovely book at times and even given it as a gift on a couple of occasions.  It is far from a translation, however, and it a bit corrupted by Zen ideas.  My translation was made from copies of the oldest extant texts, the Han dynasty scrolls found at Ma Wang Tui, which predate the common received text by hundreds of years and presumably are less subject to intentional interpolations and copyists' errors.  The challenge is not only to make a closely accurate word-for-word translation that preserves the poetry as near as possible, but that also preserves the meaning or range of meanings current in classical Chinese circa 500 BC. 

I too like Mitchell.   
I carried the complete Mitchell account around with me in my organiser for almost 11 years - I've recently replaced it with Timothy Freke's take on the Tao (thanks to Jeffrey) which gets to the Tao with fewer words. I could probably recite the Mitchell off the top of my head I've looked at it so many times.   Great.

[hildegard]

I rather like much of what Mitchell has done, and have recommended his lovely book at times and even given it as a gift on a couple of occasions.  It is far from a translation, however, and it a bit corrupted by Zen ideas.  My translation was made from copies of the oldest extant texts, the Han dynasty scrolls found at Ma Wang Tui, which predate the common received text by hundreds of years and presumably are less subject to intentional interpolations and copyists' errors.  The challenge is not only to make a closely accurate word-for-word translation that preserves the poetry as near as possible, but that also preserves the meaning or range of meanings current in classical Chinese circa 500 BC. 

The quote from Mitchell above is good as far as it goes--but note that in order to translate Lao Tzu's mind, he must first understand it.  His take on "Chapter 46," presented above, shows just how far awry his understanding can be.

I too like Mitchell.   
I carried the complete Mitchell account around with me in my organiser for almost 11 years - I've recently replaced it with Timothy Freke's take on the Tao (thanks to Jeffrey) which gets to the Tao with fewer words. I could probably recite the Mitchell off the top of my head I've looked at it so many times.    Great.

They all serve different purposes, and yet the same! 

Agreed that Mitchell is great and agreed on his use of poetic license. I also like his The Englightened Heart very much. Would like to delve into The Second Book of the Tao  -- as if there could be such a thing!   

[Florestan]

no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself

I'm not quite sure I get that. Someone please explain it to me.

[hildegard]

no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,

I'm not quite sure I get that. Someone please explain it to me.

You will undoubtedly get different iterpretations from different people. I don't think you can separate the one line from the complete verse:

"There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy."

I think it runs counterpoint to current cultural thinking that the best defense is a good offense. In constructing a preemptive move, who is the aggressor?

[DavidRoss]

I'm not quite sure I get that. Someone please explain it to me.

You would have to ask Mitchell.  It is his interpolation and is not even remotely related to Lao Tzu's text.

[Bu]

A re-read of some violently good stories:

[Florestan]

You will undoubtedly get different iterpretations from different people. I don't think you can separate the one line from the complete verse:

"There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy."

I think it runs counterpoint to current cultural thinking that the best defense is a good offense. In constructing a preemptive move, who is the aggressor?

Thank you for your response.

I'm afraid I can't agree. When Nazi Germany started preparing a massive war power and gave clear and unmistakable signs that one day or another they'll unleash hell, were the British, French or Poles delusional about their fears and wrong in preparing their defense? Would not a preemptive move, at a time when it could still be effective and in strict conformity with the international treaties pertaining to the matter, have been a thousand times preferrable to the war that followed?

[hildegard]

Thank you for your response.

I'm afraid I can't agree. When Nazi Germany started preparing a massive war power and gave clear and unmistakable signs that one day or another they'll unleash hell, were the British, French or Poles delusional about their fears and wrong in preparing their defense? Would not a preemptive move, at a time when it could still be effective and in strict conformity with the international treaties pertaining to the matter, have been a thousand times preferrable to the war that followed?

In "the way" of Tao, the scenario you described would have never transpired; but the way of Tao is not the natural way of man. In more pragmatic terms, as was pointed out, the phrase in question is one person's interpretation of the spirit of Tao and may not be a literal translation.

[rockerreds]

Ian McEwan-Saturday

[DavidRoss]

In "the way" of Tao, the scenario you described would have never transpired; but the way of Tao is not the natural way of man. In more pragmatic terms, as was pointed out, the phrase in question is one person's interpretation of the spirit of Tao and may not be a literal translation.

Such scenarios transpired constantly during the period in which the Tao Te Ching was written.  The Warring States period in what came to be a unified China was a time much like that the entire world is experiencing now, with constant warfare and strife among competing states striving for domination.  Tao Te Ching is written as advice to a ruler who would be wise; it is largely a treatise on the art of governance.

Tao is the natural "way," which men have lost.  And there's no "may be" about it: Mitchell's interpolation has nothing to do with the text, which here reads the same in both Han era scrolls and in the later "received" texts.  The passage has nothing to do with fear, enemies, or defense;  it is about the grievous consequences of desire, discontent, and covetousness, consistent with the wisdom teachings of the world's great religions--lessons which humankind is no closer to learning today than 2500 years ago.

[karlhenning]

Chapter 2 of a charming work-in-progress by our own Cato.