Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Herman]

Perhaps Rattle is his own worst enemy, in the sense that he's so much there, people get tired. Also he's not a real joy to watch conducting, with his grimacing.
However, I watched a Mahler 10 Adagio last night, Rattle / LSO and it was good. I went to YNS and the Rotterdam for sloppy seconds and YNS is just a conductor I have never understood. So incredibly fussy and jumpy.

[Roasted Swan]

Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Bournemouth M10?

[vers la flamme]

Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

[Jo498]

I think it is a strange but interesting and highly original piece that clearly shows Mahler didn't need Rott or anyone else to show him his way. I like it but I never bothered to sort out the different versions and rarely listen to it. I have Boulez/Sony with a hybrid version that seems by now to be considered philologically unsound and not/rarely performed, then Haitink with the two-part and Nagano/Teldec with what I take to be the philologically correct 3 part version.

[LKB]

I haven't heard it in years. There's some striking imagery in the text, but only the very end made much of an impression. It's the only significant work of Mahler's I've ever felt decidedly " meh " about. But then, he was still developing.

[krummholz]

I haven't heard Das Klagende Lied in decades, literally. I used to have an old LP album that included the original first movement that Mahler discarded (I think it was called Waldmärchen), I forget who the conductor was now. I always thought the most interesting thing about the work was how so many of the ideas in it turn up in his later works, especially in the 1st Symphony and in Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.

[Cato]

There are Timex ads strewn through the Laugh-In pilot ... their luxury watch was priced then at $15.95.].

"It takes a licking but keeps on ticking!"   


Concerning Mahler's  Symphony #10:

One of these days, I should listen to the entire Tenth.

We welcome all to the Tenth Symphony at whatever time!

One will notice that Mahler continues in the vein of the Ninth Symphony: those who complain that the Tenth seems "sparse," and blame that on the lack of a complete Urfassung, have perhaps not examined the Ninth Symphony carefully enough.

To be sure, not every "sparse" page or section was meant to be that way.  However, it is possible that an unadorned line is what the composer intended, rf. the opening of the work!

Also dann, guten Appetit!

[Lisztianwagner]

Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

I rarely listen to it, but I find it a very appreciable piece because of the similarities with the Mahler of the first symphonies; I especially like the dense, colurful orchestration and the combination of light and dark tones given by the continuous alterations of the orchestral dynamics, that creates fine contrasting effects between light and shadow. And as bonus point, the choirs remind me of the Wagner of Tannhäuser and Lohengrin.

[Biffo]

I haven't heard Das Klagende Lied in decades, literally. I used to have an old LP album that included the original first movement that Mahler discarded (I think it was called Waldmärchen), I forget who the conductor was now. I always thought the most interesting thing about the work was how so many of the ideas in it turn up in his later works, especially in the 1st Symphony and in Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.

The first recording of Waldmärchen was made by Pierre Boulez with the LSO, it was coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. Boulez had already recorded the two-part Das klagende Lied, the version Mahler intended to be heard. Later, CBS bolted the two albums together as Das klagende Lied. Several other record companies later did the same. Kent Nagano was the first to record the original three-part work.

[krummholz]

The first recording of Waldmärchen was made by Pierre Boulez with the LSO, it was coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. Boulez had already recorded the two-part Das klagende Lied, the version Mahler intended to be heard. Later, CBS bolted the two albums together as Das klagende Lied. Several other record companies later did the same. Kent Nagano was the first to record the original three-part work.

I almost wrote that I thought it might have been Boulez, but then balked as I was unsure. In light of your new information, I'll state with confidence that it was Boulez; and yes, it was coupled with the Adagio from #10.

I remember being struck at the time by the thematic ties with later works, but also (being a Tolkien fan at the time) by the parallel between the tale of fratricide in Waldmärchen and the story of the hobbits Smeagol and Deagol, another "legend" where one brother kills another out of jealousy for something of great beauty. It's a pretty common theme in literature so perhaps it's coincidence; but then maybe not, as Tolkien was famously familiar with Germanic folk legends and would certainly have known the Grimm brothers story on which Waldmärchen was based.

[DavidW]

Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.

Now I can say definitely the former.  I listened to the latter (BSO) and overall it was good but it has weak moments where it should not.  I posted on the listening thread.

[DavidW]

I received that Haitink set today, what fast shipping!

[Madiel]

Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

Sort of.

I have the Chailly disc which combines the original Part 1 with the revised Parts 2 and 3.



And more than anything, knowing the history of the piece, it's pretty clear why Mahler omitted the first part. So much of the narrative of Part 1 gets repeated in Part 2 that it makes the piece a lot less interesting. Mahler isn't exactly known for his concision, but in this case he worked out that he'd overdone things. It's not that the first Part is bad music, it's just that the cumulative effect is to make the work drag.

[staxomega]

Now I can say definitely the former.  I listened to the latter (BSO) and overall it was good but it has weak moments where it should not.  I posted on the listening thread.

I listened to Saito Kinen last night after seeing your post. On headphones so I couldn't get the full power and emotional impact of the music, I was still able to appreciate this was a fine performance.

[vers la flamme]

Cross posting from WAYL2:

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No.5 in C-sharp minor. Sir John Barbirolli, New Philharmonia Orchestra

Awesome recording of one of my favorite Mahler symphonies. (Though I guess my favorite Mahler symphony is whichever I happen to be listening to at the time )

When I was first getting into Mahler, I used to frequent another classical music forum which shall not be named, and everyone there went completely gaga over Barbirolli's Mahler. Nowadays I never hear anyone talk about it. Do Sir John's Mahler recordings have their fans here on GMG? I haven't heard much, but I kind of like it. This one gives me a very "dark Romantic" kind of feeling, very intense, almost grotesque, like the kind of music you might read Edgar Allan Poe or Mary Shelley to. But it's a VERY solid conception of the work; everything flows, every note perfectly succeeds what came before. The funeral march really does sound like a funeral march here, which is something I can't say about some of the other recordings I love (i.e. Boulez/Vienna, Karajan/Berlin).

Very happy to be revisiting this performance right now!

Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.

It's a strange thing, but I've never warmed to Barbirolli's famous 5th. Maybe I just didn't listen to the right issue or mastering or whatever, but I remember it struck me as sluggish.

The reason it's strange is because I like all other JB Mahler. The 6th, with its slow tempi and monumental feel, is a fine example of a "great wrongheaded" recording (i.e. one that sounds eccentric and shouldn't work, but does). I also come back to the BPO 9th a lot, it's sort of in the other direction - lighter and faster and more like a traditional romantic symphony, granted the playing is a bit awkward at times but there's a lot of "soul" in it.

[staxomega]

The 6th, with its slow tempi and monumental feel, is a fine example of a "great wrongheaded" recording (i.e. one that sounds eccentric and shouldn't work, but does). I also come back to the BPO 9th a lot, it's sort of in the other direction - lighter and faster and more like a traditional romantic symphony, granted the playing is a bit awkward at times but there's a lot of "soul" in it.

What do you make of him conducting it Andante-Scherzo? That overall dark, grim conception combined with placing the Scherzo before the final movement adds to just how bleak it is. I actually rearrange to Scherzo-Andante when I listen to it, but that sort of throws off the balance a bit with his first movement. I suppose I should go back to hearing it as he and Mahler preferred it.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

What do you make of him conducting it Andante-Scherzo? That overall dark, grim conception combined with placing the Scherzo before the final movement adds to just how bleak it is. I actually rearrange to Scherzo-Andante when I listen to it, but that sort of throws off the balance a bit with his first movement. I suppose I should go back to hearing it as he and Mahler preferred it.

I've always preferred Scherzo-Andante. I like that big island of contrasting slow music before the very long finale starts. Did Mahler ever fully make up his mind on the correct order?

The great thing about a recording is that I can listen to the mvts. in any order I want.

[staxomega]

I've always preferred Scherzo-Andante. I like that big island of contrasting slow music before the very long finale starts. Did Mahler ever fully make up his mind on the correct order?

The great thing about a recording is that I can listen to the mvts. in any order I want.

Research points to it pretty much unequivocally being Andante-Scherzo, what Mahler signed off on his final transcript. Some confusion with Mengelberg, consulting Alma, and a rogue publisher changing the order back to the first edition shouldn't be the definitive version IMO.

Having said that I prefer S-A as well lol, the balance with the lighter Andante sounds more right before the finale.

[krummholz]

I prefer Scherzo-Andante as well, mostly because of the key relationships: the Andante ends in E-flat, the Finale begins as if in C Minor (the relative minor), and when A major-minor bursts in it is like a blast from another world, since last we heard that key was several minutes earlier. That effect is completely lost if the A minor Scherzo directly precedes the Finale.

But I agree that research by Gilbert Kaplan and others has proven beyond any doubt that Mahler never changed his mind again, or at least that if he did, he never made his wishes publicly known. Could he have communicated a change of intentions to Alma (who then conveyed it to Mengelberg)? Possible, but doubtful, since unless this last change happened in 2010 (when he and Alma were not exactly close), then he would have had plenty of time to convey his wishes to his publisher.