The Rite of spring and juxtaposition over architectonics

[Sean]

I'm in the music department of another dumb university opposed to music and thought, and after overhearing a lecturer playing a recording of RoS to students I asked her briefly about it, as it pertains to what I'm studying (or supposed to be). She was non-too happy I knocked on her door and of course refused to reply to my email, and gives me the evil eye even more than before- any thoughts on it?

I can appreciate the links across juxtaposed sections on the small scale rather than architecturally, but I'm curious to why these should tend to make music more compelling than regular goal directedness. Messiaen (& Strauss & Bax etc) are other examples, along with minimalism in that its repetition ought to be dull whereas often it's the opposite: one might think the attention would wander after the exploration of a few subtle parallels in such musics.

My thoughts are that there's something interesting going on in the for-itself, the in-the-moment non-teleological character of these musics, the Dionysiac base to art reasserting itself over the Apollonian... Wagner would be another, combining elements of juxtaposition and repetition, where the conviction increases with loss of intellectual predictability. ...explaining the RoS is still the greatest challenge in 20th c music.

[DavidW]

Oh no another free thinker!  No matter how you phrase it Sean, that sounds like you have an ax to grind and are not wanting a conversation.  A conservation doesn't start by trying to convince someone that a great work of music must actually be crap.

[Florestan]

I'm in the music department of another dumb university opposed to music and thought,

What business have you being there in the first place?

[karlhenning]

Oh no another free thinker!  No matter how you phrase it Sean, that sounds like you have an ax to grind and are not wanting a conversation.

Right, and yet he is keen to pretend the other person is at fault (of course refused to reply to my email, &c.)

[Sean]

Yes, it's quite interesting isn't it, when I talk about this sort of thing people very rarely believe me and think it's my fault. Don't worry, I don't fret over whether you believe or not but universities are neurotic places with a lot of psychology going on and a lot of fear and concern about self-justification in their high-status positions.

The way British doctorates are organized with very narrow fields of study means the academic knows nothing about other fields and they have to botch those lecture sessions they're given to do.

But as I've said before the main thing is that almost all music academics and students are absolutely not listeners at all and are not the kinds of people who would ever be- I'm just as well going to the archeology dept in the hope of finding someone who's experienced the repertory and understands what it is to know a piece of music. The average music dept member approaches the subject from the perspective of composition, performance, analysis etc, not listening ie the thing that music actually is.

The lecturer in question here has absolutely no awareness nor will ever have of what the RoS is, and is simply utterly horrified by the fact of my existence- no matter how very politely and delicately I may indicate it to her.

The reason I'm into music is that its meaning is transcendental, linking me with my own galaxy I'm in- and of course most people by contrast are near-depthless nobodies for whom art can only mean nothing, or very little, and are purely intellectual and passionless. Some of the observations you make in these environments are so disturbing they change you whole worldview: I'm 100% with Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now who 'got off the boat'

'...what did he see on that first tour?'

[Scarpia]

Yes, it's quite interesting isn't it, when I talk about this sort of thing people very rarely believe me and think it's my fault. Don't worry, I don't fret over whether you believe or not but universities are neurotic places with a lot of psychology going on and a lot of fear and concern about self-justification in their high-status positions.

The way British doctorates are organized with very narrow fields of study means the academic knows nothing about other fields and they have to botch those lecture sessions they're given to do.

But as I've said before the main thing is that almost all music academics and students are absolutely not listeners at all and are not the kinds of people who would ever be- I'm just as well going to the archeology dept in the hope of finding someone who's experienced the repertory and understands what it is to know a piece of music. The average music dept member approaches the subject from the perspective of composition, performance, analysis etc, not listening ie the thing that music actually is.

The lecturer in question here has absolutely no awareness nor will ever have of what the RoS is, and is simply utterly horrified by the fact of my existence- no matter how very politely and delicately I may indicate it to her.

The reason I'm into music is that its meaning is transcendental, linking me with my own galaxy I'm in- and of course most people by contrast are near-depthless nobodies for whom art can only mean nothing, or very little, and are purely intellectual and passionless. Some of the observations you make in these environments are so disturbing they change you whole worldview: I'm 100% with Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now who 'got off the boat'

'...what did he see on that first tour?'

Did it ever occur to you that these people have jobs to do, for which they have devoted a lifetime of training and study?   And that these people, with exhausting, difficult, poorly paying jobs, don't get any credit for hanging around listing to your half-baked theories?   How would you like it if you were at your job, and your boss was on your back for not making hamburgers fast enough, and there was some ninnie following you around, bending your ear about the Apollonian/Dionysian dichotomy of the burger and the bun?

[DavidW]

I'm with you on this Scarpia, in college my impression of professors is that they were occupied with teaching, research, and committee work which stretched them pretty thin.  They can't entertain anyone that drops by their door, else their time will be eaten up quickly.

[karlhenning]

I'm with you on this Scarpia, in college my impression of professors is that they were occupied with teaching, research, and committee work which stretched them pretty thin.  They can't entertain anyone that drops by their door, else their time will be eaten up quickly.

And given any encouragement, Sean is apparently a time-devourer.

[Sean]

I'm saying 1) music academics don't know what they're talking about because they don't know the music they're talking about, 2) anyone can reply to an email, even to the effect they don't have time to reply.

You folks are trying to support a system, perhaps to which you belong.

Either way I'm signing off this forum- this time for good. It can sail into the night.

[MN Dave]

Suuure...

[Scarpia]

Oh dear, now look what we've done.   

[MN Dave]

Oh dear, now look what we've done.   

I didn't even pop into this thread till just now, and what do you know, Sean's leaving again...

[karlhenning]

Either way I'm signing off this forum- this time for good.

The self-appointed genius does a drama queen turn.

All is right with the world.

[MN Dave]

The self-appointed genius does a drama queen turn.

All is right with the world.

Well, he's easier to ignore when he's not posting.

[springrite]

I'm signing off this forum- this time for good.

Thank you sir. Should we save this post as a sticky ?

[springrite]

I'm signing off - this time for good.

Just got an e-mail from the professor asking "How did you do that? What is your secret?"

[jochanaan]

Well, in fairness, we have to acknowledge that Sean did call the Rite "the greatest challenge in 20th-century music."  That's a compliment in my book! But as much as I love the Rite, I'm not sure I agree with him; there's lots of stuff out there that's just as challenging or more so.

Have we all remembered that the Rite's hundredth anniversary is only 3 years away? Hardly a "contemporary masterpiece" any more, is it?

[Scarpia]

Well, in fairness, we have to acknowledge that Sean did call the Rite "the greatest challenge in 20th-century music."

Why is that something to be acknowledged?

[greg]

Nah, the greatest "challenge" would have to be something by Ferneyhough. 

[karlhenning]

Well, in fairness, we have to acknowledge that Sean did call the Rite "the greatest challenge in 20th-century music."  That's a compliment in my book! But as much as I love the Rite, I'm not sure I agree with him; there's lots of stuff out there that's just as challenging or more so.

Yes, and Sean walks the tame side with safe-as-kittens Philip Glass ; )

Have we all remembered that the Rite's hundredth anniversary is only 3 years away? Hardly a "contemporary masterpiece" any more, is it?

Indeed!  The glorious Rite has been historical for many decades.