Top 10 favourite VS. top 10 greatest composers

[The Diner]

Greatest:

Beethoven, Ludwig van
Bach, Johann Sebastian
Verdi, Giuseppe
Chopin, Frédéric
Haydn, Joseph
Debussy, Claude
Wagner, Richard
Handel, Georg Frideric
Stravinsky, Igor 
Schoenberg, Arnold 

Favorites:

Beethoven, Ludwig van
Bach, Johann Sebastian 
Brahms, Johannes 
Schubert, Franz
Chopin, Frédéric
Haydn, Joseph
Schumann, Robert
Prokofiev, Serge
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nicolai
Purcell, Henry

[Marc]

This is what I wrote on October 12, 2006, in the old GMG forum :

Top 10  composers - tried to avoid personal favours (and succeeded .... I think):
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Wagner
Josquin
Monteverdi
Haydn
Brahms
Schoenberg
Stravinsky

My personal list (today, could change tomorrow, except for the first four):
Bach
Mozart
Schubert
Mahler

Brahms
Purcell
Beethoven
Chopin
Byrd
Pärt

I know it looks a bit harsh towards the French, that's why I'd like to add that Rameau and Debussy could well have deserved a place in the first list. And American? Mmmmm.... I think Charles Ives was way ahead of his time, so he could be in that list too.
But of course, these lists are meaningless, although it's always fun to puzzle one's head off.

I'm too lazy to think deep and have one or two names changed, although I would like to exchange Rameau for F. Couperin. And Buxtehude should be in my personal list somewhere.

[abidoful]

I'll give it a try;

10 Greatest;
- Monteverdi
- Bach
- Haydn
- Beethoven
- Mendelssohn
- Chopin
- Debussy
- Szymanowski
- Prokofiev
- Schoenberg

I tried to choose the  ten most influential composers I could quickly think of . For example, I don't "love" Haydn (I know his output very poorly), but I know that he is one of the very greatest. Brahms I left out because he was IMO end of an era rather than a fresh, innovative personality. Wagner perhaps should be on the list. And Webern. But as someone said, that's life! And as for  Webern, there's Schoenberg, so they kind of overlap each other.
Szymanowski I chose because IMO he truly was influential; on Bartok for example(Bartok studied his scores, especially his string-writing). And he anticipates Messiaen (the beginning of the Concerto for Violin and Orchestra nr1 op.35).

Ten favorite;
- Bach
- Mozart
- Schubert
- Chopin
- Bruckner
- Tchaikovsky
- Faure
- Debussy
- Madetoja
- Messiaen

As I become older I'm growing more and more fond of Mozart. I enjoy the warmth of Schubert. And there comes another Austrian, Bruckner (Austrian being the key word, I also have an affinity to the Second Viennese School). I have always been thrilled by Frederic Chopin. Tsaikovski is simply adorable, so many masterpieces! I'm intrigued by Faure. Debussy, no explanation needed (I'm in awe with his music--what sensitivity, what new sounds!). Madetoja is one of the Finnish composers I enjoy the most (along with Toivo Kuula, both late romantics), and I do love and admire Messiaen.

[Guido]

Szymanowski surely a quixotic choice, if your criterion for greatness is influence! As is Mendlessohn. And Prokofiev, who is also just far too inconsistant to be one of the true all time greats (certainly not top 10).

[jlaurson]

Szymanowski surely a quixotic choice, if your criterion for greatness is influence! As is Mendlessohn. And Prokofiev, who is also just far too inconsistant to be one of the true all time greats (certainly not top 10).

Mendelssohn, as I've tried to make a case for above, is actually a very reasonable choice... although it means extending "influence" beyond purely compositional/musical matters.

As for the above reasoning for leaving Brahms out: Wouldn't that keep Mozart out of the running, too? Oh, never mind. He was consistent on that: Mozart is missing, too. Well, Schoenberg would disagree about leaving Brahms out, I suppose. :-)

[Guido]

As for the above reasoning for leaving Brahms out: Wouldn't that keep Mozart out of the running, too? Oh, never mind. He was consistent on that: Mozart is missing, too. Well, Schoenberg would disagree about leaving Brahms out, I suppose. :-)

And above all Bach!

[offbeat]

I dont feel confident enough to define who is greatest - isnt it just a matter of opinion ??
as for favs thats not so easy also but anyway mine are in no particular order
1. Mahler - love the intensity and almost neurotic fervour of a lot of his music
2. Delius - totally unique in my view
3. Sibelius - wonderful nature paintings
4. Berg - So very sensual its unreal
5. Schoenberg - utterly fascinating composer from the early romantic to the mind blowing atonal
6. Shostakovich -more than any other composer speaks to me about the tragedy of the 20th century
7. Beethoven - seems to have most influence on all that followed
8. Wagner -not always but at certain moments totally compelling
9. Arvo Part - Speaks to me about the spiritual desert of today
10. Vaughan Williams - has so many different faces or moods
Oh dear missed out Stravinsky whose Rite of Spring changed music forever.......

[Sid]

I'll give it a go:

"Greatest" (I'm thinking especially in terms of influence on future composers rather than just popularity with the public. This is based on my reading of various books on classical music & listening as well.)

Monteverdi
J.S. Bach
Mozart/Haydn - very difficult to separate these, but I'd put Mozart first for his facility with all genres.
Beethoven
Liszt
Wagner
Debussy
Schoenberg
Stravinsky
Messiaen - could have put Varese, who also influenced the next generation, but Messiaen did the same & had a larger output, with works in more genres.

"Favourites" (This is very hard, as my preferences change as I get to know more composers, but Beethoven has always been a favourite)

Beethoven
Handel
Messiaen
Varese
Schoenberg/Berg/Webern - can't really decide which one
Harry Partch
Tippett
Liszt
Carter
Ives

[abidoful]

Mendelssohn, as I've tried to make a case for above, is actually a very reasonable choice... although it means extending "influence" beyond purely compositional/musical matters.

As for the above reasoning for leaving Brahms out: Wouldn't that keep Mozart out of the running, too? Oh, never mind. He was consistent on that: Mozart is missing, too. Well, Schoenberg would disagree about leaving Brahms out, I suppose. :-)

Indeed I was thinking of Mendelssohn, becouse he inspired a lot of later 19th century composers like Grieg (the lyric pieces, their whole concept is based on Mendelssohn's lieder ohne worte IMO) and early Richard Strauss (just listen to the Cello sonata op6) but it's only ten so I wanted to choose his contemorary Chopin who set a model basically for all the later "national romantics", in Russia (Balakirev, even Tsaikovski perhaps in a broad sense) and Scandinavia (Grieg and Sibelius). Also he inspired clearly Gabriel Faure (nocturnes, barcarolles, even the chamber music perhaps) in France and serge Rachmaninov in Russia (apart from other works, the Cello sonata is clearly based on Chopins, up to its key ). Also he was such a great harmonist, all that Tristanisque stuff is actually more "taken" from Chopin than Liszt.

Edit;
And yeah, my choosing , admittedly, of ten of the greatest wasn't a 100% objective

[abidoful]

Indeed I was thinking of Mendelssohn, becouse he inspired a lot of later 19th century composers...

I HAD Mendelssohn on my list! Hups; I already forgot---I thought I left him out becouse he was so near contemporary of Chopin. Perhaps I should have left Chopin out

[jlaurson]

Indeed I was thinking of Mendelssohn, becouse he inspired a lot of later 19th century composers like Grieg (the lyric pieces, their whole concept is based on Mendelssohn's lieder ohne worte IMO) and early Richard Strauss ...

Well, I meant more how Mendelssohn defined the modern concertizing business, the modern orchestra, how he invented the role of the conductor, music academies, and the idea of repertoire. (See also here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=476.) But the influence on other musicians certainly is there... overlooking that Wagner plagiarized from the Scottish Symphony to create his Flying Dutchman, I'm thinking on pieces like  Midsummer Night's Dream,  the Hebrides Overture op.26 ("Fingal's Cave", 1830), Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage op.24 (1828) and "Die Schöne Melusine" op.32 (1833), which were pioneering works for concert overtures, paving the way for symphonic poems (Liszt), and even the tone poems of Richard Strauss.

[abidoful]

Well, I meant more how Mendelssohn defined the modern concertizing business, the modern orchestra, how he invented the role of the conductor, music academies, and the idea of repertoire. (See also here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=476.) But the influence on other musicians certainly is there... overlooking that Wagner plagiarized from the Scottish Symphony to create his Flying Dutchman, I'm thinking on pieces like  Midsummer Night's Dream,  the Hebrides Overture op.26 ("Fingal's Cave", 1830), Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage op.24 (1828) and "Die Schöne Melusine" op.32 (1833), which were pioneering works for concert overtures, paving the way for symphonic poems (Liszt), and even the tone poems of Richard Strauss.

Yeas, but those influences what I detected from Grieg and some specific early work of R. Strauss cannot be be overlooked IMO and they are what I detected and I can only spek of things I know and I see his influence above all quite clearly in the romantic miniature style Grieg being perhaps the most famous producer of them in his Lyriske stycke.
And to be honest, I've never thought of Mendelssohn in connection with Richard Strauss et al's tone poems but surely I have thought of Franz Liszt

[DavidRoss]

Well, I meant more how Mendelssohn defined the modern concertizing business, the modern orchestra, how he invented the role of the conductor, music academies, and the idea of repertoire.

And this has had a profound influence on music--including composition--ever since.

[abidoful]

And to be honest, I've never thought of Mendelssohn in connection with Richard Strauss et al's tone poems but surely I have thought of Franz Liszt

Sorry, you did mention Liszt there-- to be even more honest, and with more humility, I may have been misinformed or plainly ignorant . I'll definately will check out that link of your's.

[abidoful]

Is there any formation to the lineage "Mendelssohn overture-Liszt symphonic poem- R.Strauss et al "? Is ot "just" a hunch, or is there for example some document of Liszt actually  mentioning the importance of Mendelssohn's overtures as a model for his Symphonic Poems? Mendelssohn did represent (though he did a little experimentation with forms) the classicism in his era, not the "new order" of Chopin-Schumann- Liszt and Wagner.

[RJR]

Gustav Mahler is the only composer mentionned who wasn't a fulltime composer. He was a fulltime conductor who composed in his leisure hours in his lovely shack in the woods of Austria.

I think that adversely influenced his approach to composition. He didn't know when to stop. I would bet that not one of you could hum or whistle every note of the first movement of his third symphony. Why? It's too long. I bet most of you could hum a Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven or Brahms symphony all the way through without much trouble.

The first movement of the ninth symphony could have ended a good eight or nine minutes before it finally did but no, Herr Mahler decided that he hadn't yet said everything that was on his mind. My favorite movement in the ninth is the Rondo/Burleske. It's also the shortest movement. I like the first movement of the 5th Symphony too. It makes me think of Berlin in the 20s, for some reason. It is also a short movement. I'll take Brahms' symphonies over Mahler's any day of the year. Or for all Eternity, for that matter. One of the three greatest symphonists? Not a chance.

Those summer holidays in his shack in the woods were undoubtedly a great inspiration but maybe they overstimulated his imagination just a tad too much.

[Lethevich]

To be fair, a Brahms fan can hum through an entire symphony of his, others cannot; a Mahler fan can hum through an entire symphony of his, others cannot.

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler is the only composer mentionned who wasn't a fulltime composer. He was a fulltime conductor who composed in his leisure hours in his lovely shack in the woods of Austria.

Gustav Mahler is the only composer mentionned who wasn't a fulltime composer. He was a fulltime conductor artistic and music director who composed in during his leisure hours vacations in (eventually) his lovely shacks in the woods on various lake shores of Austria.

I think that adversely influenced his approach to composition. He didn't know when to stop. I would bet that not one of you could hum or whistle every note of the first movement of his third symphony. Why? It's too long. I bet most of you could hum a Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven or Brahms symphony all the way through without much trouble.

A bet you would soundly lose. (Although we probably get your point...)

Those summer holidays in his shack in the woods were undoubtedly a great inspiration but maybe they overstimulated his imagination just a tad too much.

But surely that's not so much a statement of fact as it is your projection on Mahler based on your response to his music thus far...

(Not that I'd include him in the top three symphonists, despite my addiction to the composer...)

[drogulus]

That question is one of the many reasons for why I started the thread. In my case it's self-awareness - a feeling that humans are subjective creatures, even the most educated cannot completely agree. But when my tastes do not fully coincide with an aggregate choice from a whole lot of intelligent people, I see no reason to argue against it.

     Wha? Humans have a remarkable ability to agree on facts. They have trouble agreeing on matters of taste, frequently imagining they are in possession of some controlling fact which slipped the grasp of millions of other intelligent people. It's not a good explanation of taste. People must be, within reason, different in their sensitivity to the elements art is made from, and when you add differences in experience and background beliefs you have enough to explain how tastes differ without resort to the notion of greatness as a discoverable truth. It's a social phenomenon in which we all play a part. Instead of arguing against your own taste you can seek to expand it by discovering what other people have found. You don't have to do that, but it's worth doing.

[drogulus]

I dont feel confident enough to define who is greatest - isnt it just a matter of opinion ??
as for favs thats not so easy also but anyway mine are in no particular order
1. Mahler - love the intensity and almost neurotic fervour of a lot of his music
2. Delius - totally unique in my view
3. Sibelius - wonderful nature paintings
4. Berg - So very sensual its unreal
5. Schoenberg - utterly fascinating composer from the early romantic to the mind blowing atonal
6. Shostakovich -more than any other composer speaks to me about the tragedy of the 20th century
7. Beethoven - seems to have most influence on all that followed
8. Wagner -not always but at certain moments totally compelling
9. Arvo Part - Speaks to me about the spiritual desert of today
10. Vaughan Williams - has so many different faces or moods
Oh dear missed out Stravinsky whose Rite of Spring changed music forever.......

     That's a wonderful list, and it goes to 11.