GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:35:28 AM

Title: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:35:28 AM
Saw this post, and knew there had to be a thread:

Schoenberg op.8

now that i've got a fast connection, i'm listening to all the Schoenberg that i haven't heard yet! yessssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of My Favorite Schoenberg:

Gurrelieder
Verklärte Nacht, string sextet, Opus 4
Quartets. Opp. 7, 10, 30 & 37
Chamber Symphony No. 1, Opus 9
Opus 11 piano pieces!
Opus 23 piano pieces!
Serenade, Opus 24
Chamber Symphony No. 2, Opus 38
Piano Concerto, Opus 42
String Trio, Opus 45
Moses und Aron
Cello Concerto (after Monn)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on April 12, 2007, 07:02:43 AM
Some of My Favorite Schoenberg:

Gurrelieder
Verklärte Nacht, string sextet, Opus 4
Quartets. Opp. 7, 10, 30 & 37
Chamber Symphony No. 1, Opus 9
Opus 11 piano pieces!
Opus 23 piano pieces!
Serenade, Opus 24
Chamber Symphony No. 2, Opus 38
Piano Concerto, Opus 42
String Trio, Opus 45
Moses und Aron
Cello Concerto (after Monn)



Yes, all great.  And I would add the Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16, which I truly never tire of hearing.  Favorite live performances from the recent past: Chailly and the Concertgebouw Orchestra in 1999, on a program that also included Brahms' Violin Concerto (with Vadim Repin) and Brahms' Symphony No. 2, and an excellent chamber version in 2005 by James Levine and the Met Orchestra, on a program that included Dallapiccola and Carter.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2007, 07:05:46 AM
I just had to take the time to add my favorites too:

Five Pieces for Orchestra You will wish there were 10!

Pelleas und Melisande  Hot, humid, and hysterical!

String Quartet #2  Cool winds from Mars expected later today!

Friede auf Erde Eventually there is peace at the end!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 07:09:56 AM
Pelleas und Melisande  Hot, humid, and hysterical!

Oh, man . . . thought I'd lumbered into the Debussy thread by mistake!

Welcome, Cato!

Have yet to find a recording of the Kol nidre . . . .
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: springrite on April 12, 2007, 07:13:31 AM
Oh, man . . . thought I'd lumbered into the Debussy thread by mistake!

Or Faure!

My favorite is probably the Five Pieces.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2007, 08:43:15 AM
Oh, man . . . thought I'd lumbered into the Debussy thread by mistake!


When record companies had imagination, there was a disc available with Schoenberg's tone poem, and the stage music by both Sibelius and Faure.

Karl, for the Schoenberg  Kol Nidre check out these CD's:

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=391848

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=27992

I did not find them on Amazon, but this company is very good.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 12, 2007, 09:25:45 AM
For a quality one-stop for Pelleas, this new Czech disc (http://www.amazon.com/Pelleas-Melisande-Symphonie-Debussy/dp/B000LV6CM8/ref=sr_1_1/102-3861716-8838505?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176401777&sr=1-1) might fit the bill.



(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000LV6CM8.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43934076_SS500_.jpg)


Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 13, 2007, 05:50:13 AM
I see this Czech disc even has opera excerpts from Debussy: is the Pink Harp fanatic still around?  This should be of interest to him!

The recording must be from the 60's or 70's given that Baudo is conducting.  Supraphon records from that time occasionally had problems with heavy hiss, but this one might be okay.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Novi on April 13, 2007, 05:58:02 AM
I like Pierrot Lunaire. Trippy stuff ...
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 13, 2007, 05:58:59 AM
Saw this post, and knew there had to be a thread:

Some of My Favorite Schoenberg:

Gurrelieder
Verklärte Nacht, string sextet, Opus 4
Quartets. Opp. 7, 10, 30 & 37
Chamber Symphony No. 1, Opus 9
Opus 11 piano pieces!
Opus 23 piano pieces!
Serenade, Opus 24
Chamber Symphony No. 2, Opus 38
Piano Concerto, Opus 42
String Trio, Opus 45
Moses und Aron
Cello Concerto (after Monn)


i listened to the 1st chamber concerto and the string trio, too, yesterday
still more to go, yay  8)

my favorites:
5 pieces for Orchestra
Book of Hanging Gardens
Variations for Orchestra
Piano Suite (if it's Glenn Gould performing)
3 pieces for piano
Transfigured night
Suite (i forget which one, i think with chamber instruments)
Pierrot Lunaire
Piano Concerto
Ode to Napoleon Dynamite (i mean Buonaparte, hehehe)
and more.....

listened to the 2nd string quartet again awhile ago... my opinion has changed a little. it's not so bad as i thought before, especially if i have in mind his other works from that period
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 06:01:08 AM
I need to revisit that there Book of the Hanging Gardens, Greg!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 13, 2007, 06:08:08 AM
I need to revisit that there Book of the Hanging Gardens, Greg!
Go ahead! Usually his stuff grows on you if you don't know what to think at first.
What's interesting is his harmonic language at the time when he first starts diving into free atonality. You hear something like the Chamber Symphony or Transfigured Night, with late-Romantic sounds that could come from someone like Strauss, which is mixed up with lots of whole-tone sounding stuff- and then it evolves rapidly into atonality, though it's a completely different type of atonality than his serial stuff. It's like late-Romantic atonality, which is really cool
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on April 13, 2007, 07:17:50 AM
Lots of great pieces there: two that I particularly like which aren't mentioned elsewhere (probably because they are in truth minor Schoenberg) are the gorgeous Weihnachtsmusik and the completely silly String Quartet Concerto.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 07:54:08 AM
The Five Pieces for Orchestra are blisteringly brilliant. I think one critic wrote that the last movement was the greatest work of modernism in music. I wouldn't agree but I can see why he might have been stirred into such moments of hyperbole.

Along with the Serenade and String Quartet No. 2, these are my favourite Schoenberg works.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 13, 2007, 08:03:42 AM
And one of Schoenberg's most fun works (yes, I said fun, and I'm glad, I tell you, glad!!!) is...

The Violin Concerto!

Not to be missed!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: mahlertitan on April 13, 2007, 11:05:21 AM
i like the lighter works, the highly complex suite for strings in G
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 11:38:59 AM
What do people think of the piano music? Which recording is the best to own? I've heard that Pollini is one of the best.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:48:01 PM
I still believe that Schoenberg doesn't get half the recognition he deserves. Even if people just recognised his importance - provided they had heard at least some of his works. I know that Webern could be said to have had more influence on the later serialists but, nevertheless, Schoenberg did ignite the whole movement and bring music 'over the edge of the cliff' - the edge that people like Mahler and Strauss had been edging nearer to all the time. Indeed, one of the first examples I can think of of 'over the edge' music is Schoenberg's 2nd quartet - wonderful piece.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 13, 2007, 07:08:50 PM
What do people think of the piano music? Which recording is the best to own? I've heard that Pollini is one of the best.

I find much to admire in Schoenberg's solo piano music. And to me Pollini gets right to the heart of it.

What little Uchida has recorded (on her PC disc) is good too.





Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 13, 2007, 07:42:49 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on Jacob's Ladder?

I've just been listening to the disc below and am bowled over by the beauty of the music! By turns bold, delicate, and layered with much color.

Nagano conducts with a romantic influence yet by no means downplays the edginess.

I've not seen much in print about this work but under Nagano's direction I detect much to rave about!

And the text...little doubt this would be a hard one in the theater! ;D


(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/84/516584.jpg)

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 14, 2007, 05:09:25 AM
What do people think of the piano music? Which recording is the best to own? I've heard that Pollini is one of the best.
i like Glenn Gould recording of his complete solo piano music, plus does the piano concerto, Phantasy for Violin and Piano, Ode to Napoleon, and conducts a bit of Pierrot Lunaire
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 14, 2007, 06:50:09 AM
I've heard that Gould doesn't play exactly what Schoenberg wrote. I think it was on one of the reviews for Pollini's version on amazon.com.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 15, 2007, 09:10:57 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on Jacob's Ladder?

I've just been listening to the disc below and am bowled over by the beauty of the music! By turns bold, delicate, and layered with much color.

Nagano conducts with a romantic influence yet by no means downplays the edginess.

I've not seen much in print about this work but under Nagano's direction I detect much to rave about!

And the text...little doubt this would be a hard one in the theater! ;D


(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/84/516584.jpg)



This is one of the greatest, little-played works of the last century!  I used to have my students translate and interpret the text, which is admittedly difficult.

But the music is a marvelous hybrid, with distant echoes of Gurrelieder and future echoes of Moses und Aron.

But what is amazing for an unfinished work, is that it does not sound unfinished at all.  The ending with the single note sung by a single voice, is absolutely, ineffably beautiful.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 15, 2007, 10:53:48 AM
I've heard that Gould doesn't play exactly what Schoenberg wrote. I think it was on one of the reviews for Pollini's version on amazon.com.
it's more of an improvised, Romantic-style playing. Like for the Piano Suite, instead of obeying the score note-for-note, he accentuates accelerandos and ritardandos even if they aren't written, and yeah, it does sound real nice.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 15, 2007, 03:46:59 PM
This is one of the greatest, little-played works of the last century!  I used to have my students translate and interpret the text, which is admittedly difficult.

But the music is a marvelous hybrid, with distant echoes of Gurrelieder and future echoes of Moses und Aron.

But what is amazing for an unfinished work, is that it does not sound unfinished at all.  The ending with the single note sung by a single voice, is absolutely, ineffably beautiful.

Such a great work done in by the text, would you say? Or are the problems musical, as can happen with Schoenberg?

The text, for me, offers no roadblocks. But I can see where the general concertgoer might be put off (their loss...).

But the music...it can stand with the best of Schoenberg, which is to say, some of the 20th century's finest. This alone should put it in good standing.  

Being new to the work I had wondered about its romantic leanings, wondering if it simply had been nudged that way by Nagano. But your description of it as a hybrid makes sense. Elements of the past finding refuge in the future.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: val on April 16, 2007, 03:44:36 AM
I don't like much Schönberg's solo piano music. It seems to me too abstract.

The works of Schönberg that I love more:

The opera "Moses und Aaron" (Gielen)

Pierrot Lunaire (Sziklay, Miàly)

Serenata opus 24 (Atherton)

2nd string Quartet (Prazak Quartet)

Trio opus 45 (members of the Juilliard Quartet)

Friede auf Erden, The two Psalms, A survivor in Varsaw (Boulez)

Piano Concerto (Ushida, Boulez)

Die Jakobsleiter (Boulez)

Pieces opus 16 (Boulez).

The Lieder (Bryn Julson, Oppens)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 16, 2007, 11:34:36 AM
Concerning Jacob's Ladder:

Such a great work done in by the text, would you say? Or are the problems musical, as can happen with Schoenberg?

The text, for me, offers no roadblocks. But I can see where the general concertgoer might be put off (their loss...).

But the music...it can stand with the best of Schoenberg, which is to say, some of the 20th century's finest. This alone should put it in good standing.  

Being new to the work I had wondered about its romantic leanings, wondering if it simply had been nudged that way by Nagano. But your description of it as a hybrid makes sense. Elements of the past finding refuge in the future.


The text is seemingly about as unmusical as you can get!  Yet when you hear it, everything flows, and nothing sounds clumsy.  To be sure, most of Gabriel's part is Sprechgesang, but there are thorny parts elsewhere which sound just fine.

 Schoenberg thought so much of the text that he later had it published separately.  It is available today from his family publishing company Belmont Music  (Belmont = Schoenberg), if you want a copy.

An experiment: play the Gurrelieder section of Klaus-Narr back to back with the Revolutionary (der Aufrührerischer) from Jakobsleiter and you will hear the connection between the tonal and the atonal.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 16, 2007, 11:36:27 AM
. . . his family publishing company Belmont Music  (Belmont = Schoenberg)

Cor!  It's obvious!  How did I miss that before?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 16, 2007, 11:45:14 AM
Cor!  It's obvious!  How did I miss that before?

You have too many other more important things to ponder!   :D

I forgot to mention earlier that in the middle 90's  a German company from the Ruhr Valley presented Jakobsleiter as a ballet!  My brother saw it in LaLaLand.  Rumor had it that the Schoenberg family was not really happy with the idea, but I thought it could only help to explicate the text.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 26, 2007, 05:10:15 AM
recently listened to Schoenberg:

op.28 Three Satires for Mixed Chorus
op.34 Accompaniment to a Film Scene
op.43a Theme and Variations for Full Band
op.44 Prelude for Mixed Chorus and Orchestra

the first few minutes of Moses und Aron (wow!!!!  :o )

now:
op.32 From Today Till Tomorrow
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2007, 05:22:40 AM
recently listened to Schoenberg:

op.28 Three Satires for Mixed Chorus
op.34 Accompaniment to a Film Scene
op.43a Theme and Variations for Full Band
op.44 Prelude for Mixed Chorus and Orchestra

the first few minutes of Moses und Aron (wow!!!!  :o )

now:
op.32 From Today Till Tomorrow

Which recording of Moses und Aron ?  The Solti recording had Barbara Bonney - before she was very famous - in one of the minor roles.

But I think the new DGG Boulez recording has better sound and delineation.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 26, 2007, 05:28:49 AM
Which recording of Moses und Aron ?  The Solti recording had Barbara Bonney - before she was very famous - in one of the minor roles.

But I think the new DGG Boulez recording has better sound and delineation.
I don't know which recording it is, actually. It's the one on the Schoenberg site  8)
(do you know which one that is?)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 26, 2007, 06:20:17 AM
I've been listening to Pierrot Lunaire recently. I have to say, it's one of the craziest, most wonderful works I've ever heard. How important is it among Schoenberg's oeuvre?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:21:48 AM
Stravinsky called it "the solar plexus of twentieth-century music."
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2007, 08:55:06 AM
I don't know which recording it is, actually. It's the one on the Schoenberg site  8)
(do you know which one that is?)

Sorry, no!  You would think they ought to credit the recording somewhere.

Pierrot Lunaire shows exactly what free atonality is capable of: I sometimes muse quite seriously as to whether Schoenberg should have stayed with that style, rather than formulating "composition with 12 notes," although to be sure you can find a willingness to break his own rules in the later works.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on April 26, 2007, 08:59:01 AM
Stravinsky called it "the solar plexus of twentieth-century music."

Thanks for posting that quote, Karl.  A perfectly fine description of a totally amazing piece.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on April 26, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
I like Pierrot Lunaire. Trippy stuff ...



I am looking for a good recording of that piece.

I discovered verklarte nacht recently and was really devastated...I could hear the late romanticism in it, but Schoenberg asserts his own compositional personality throughout as well. A fascinating piece, I'm playing it for the 6th time in two days.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 09:51:00 AM
I am looking for a good recording of that piece.

This is your day, Andy! :-)

Naxos reissued the Craft/Anja Silja recording last month (http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Pierrot-Lunaire-Frank-Morelli/dp/B000MRP1S2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177613382&sr=1-1).

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y6fwW4WqL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on April 26, 2007, 02:03:47 PM
This is your day, Andy! :-)

Naxos reissued the Craft/Anja Silja recording last month (http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Pierrot-Lunaire-Frank-Morelli/dp/B000MRP1S2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177613382&sr=1-1).

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y6fwW4WqL._AA240_.jpg)




On my Amazon wish list (lust!) as we speak, thanks Karl!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
This is your day, Andy! :-)

Naxos reissued the Craft/Anja Silja recording last month (http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Pierrot-Lunaire-Frank-Morelli/dp/B000MRP1S2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177613382&sr=1-1).

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y6fwW4WqL._AA240_.jpg)

Agreed!  That one is a classic!  And the other works on the CD are must-haves as well, especially the Four Orchestral Songs.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 01:23:40 AM
Agreed!  That one is a classic!  And the other works on the CD are must-haves as well, especially the Four Orchestral Songs.





This cd is now officially my next "to get"!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 06:34:00 AM
just listened to: op.48 Three Songs for Low Voice
op.49 Three Folksongs for mixed chorus a cappella
(now that is definetely an example of Schoenberg using occasional returns to tonality!)

next: op.50 A, B, C
the only ones left that i can think of are the Cello Concerto, Moses und Aron, Gurrelieder, and Jacobsleiter and i've heard all of Schoenberg  :) (unless i find something later i've overlooked)

anyone else hear ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLl of Schoenberg yet?  8)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2007, 08:33:23 AM

the only ones left that i can think of are the Cello Concerto, Moses und Aron, Gurrelieder, and Jacobsleiter and i've heard all of Schoenberg  :) (unless i find something later i've overlooked)


Dude!  The last 3 are absolutely crucial!!!  Listen to them chronologically and report back!

By the way, the score to Moses und Aron is being offered on Amazon for $66.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 08:36:57 AM
Full score?  (They wouldn't charge that for a vocal score? Naaaaaooooooooo . . . .)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
By the way, the score to Moses und Aron is being offered on Amazon for $66.
oh, that's it  ::)
i say Dover should make miniature scores of every work in existence so people could actually afford them all  0:)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Guido on April 27, 2007, 09:36:49 AM
I noticed you put the Cello Concerto in your list of favourite works. Its referred to in the Naxos booklet as 'a masterpiece' but I'm not so sure. I prefer the Ma rendition to the Sherry version, though I am usually very keen on Sherry.

It is one of the hardest Cello concertos ever written and its just too unreasonably hard to become standard rep (The Prokofiev is similarly difficult, but then one might say that it had more artisitic value).

I like it, for its humour and lightness, but I'm not convinced its a great work. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 09:38:07 AM
I noticed you put the Cello Concerto in your list of favourite works. Its referred to in the Naxos booklet as 'a masterpiece' but I'm not so sure. I prefer the Ma rendition to the Sherry version, though I am usually very keen on Sherry.

It is one of the hardest Cello concertos ever written and its just too unreasonably hard to become standard rep (The Prokofiev is similarly difficult, but then one might say that it had more artisitic value).

I like it, for its humour and lightness, but I'm not convinced its a great work. Thoughts?
you're talking to Karl, right?
i haven't heard it yet....
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 09:41:14 AM
you're talking to Karl, right?
i haven't heard it yet....

That's all right, Greg, I'm sending you thoughts . . . .
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 09:45:53 AM
I noticed you put the Cello Concerto in your list of favourite works. Its referred to in the Naxos booklet as 'a masterpiece' but I'm not so sure. I prefer the Ma rendition to the Sherry version, though I am usually very keen on Sherry.

It is one of the hardest Cello concertos ever written and its just too unreasonably hard to become standard rep (The Prokofiev is similarly difficult, but then one might say that it had more artisitic value).

I like it, for its humour and lightness, but I'm not convinced its a great work. Thoughts?

I like it for its humor and lightness, too.  You're right, the Prokofiev is similarly a great challenge;  I probably agree that the Prokofiev is the greater work, but then, it's about twice the duration of the Schoenberg/Monn, too . . . which, at the least, makes the Prokofiev Opus 125 a more daunting investment for the orchestra.

I like the work too well to feel at all comfortable talking it down, Guido . . . but I agree that if the Naxos notes call it a 'masterpiece', they're overselling it a bit.

I haven't heard Ma in this;  is it on the Silk Road IV disc?  :o
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 09:47:48 AM
That's all right, Greg, I'm sending you thoughts . . . .
oh, thanks, Karl!
hm, this concerto ain't bad..... man, that cello playing is complex!
i love the tone row....

send me thoughts of Vaughan Williams symphonies (2-9 i don't have) next  8)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Guido on April 28, 2007, 05:29:35 PM
The thing about the cello part is that it sounds less difficult than it is. And it sounds bloody difficult, so you can imagine what an unrewarding prospect it is for the soloist. Don't get me wrong, I do like it quite a bit. Ma's recording which does away with the technical difficulties (Sherry sounds like hes straining a tad) is on Sony naturally coupled with his recording of Strauss' Don Quixote.


As a side note Karl do you ever feel that the Prokofiev's Symphony Concerto is too long? I find it difficult to sit through in one go.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 29, 2007, 09:35:52 AM

As a side note Karl do you ever feel that the Prokofiev's Symphony Concerto is too long? I find it difficult to sit through in one go.

....Karl is sending me thoughts...

he says, "no, yo"....
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on April 29, 2007, 09:36:42 AM
....Karl is sending me thoughts...

he says, "no, yo"....



Aw, that's nowhere to go, yo!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 30, 2007, 04:39:13 AM
just finished Moses und Aron (well, technically, no one has ever "finished" that opera in any way, but...)

my thoughts: best opera I've heard yet, seriously!

I'm putting it over L'Amour de Loin, Wozzeck and Dialogues de los Carmelites (or however that title is written) as my favorite

next up: Jakobsleiter, Gurrelieder  8)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 30, 2007, 05:58:06 AM
just finished Moses und Aron (well, technically, no one has ever "finished" that opera in any way, but...)

my thoughts: best opera I've heard yet, seriously!

I'm putting it over L'Amour de Loin, Wozzeck and Dialogues de los Carmelites (or however that title is written) as my favorite

next up: Jakobsleiter, Gurrelieder  8)

Going back into time!  That works!

Moses und Aron is in fact a finished work: Schoenberg's unconscious realized it, even if the frontal lobe did not!  You will discover the same is true for Jakobsleiter: it will sound blissfully complete!  In fact, I am willing to wager that unless one is told beforehand that the works are incomplete, one would never feel any sense of unfinished business.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2007, 06:19:19 AM
Moses und Aron is in fact a finished work: Schoenberg's unconscious realized it, even if the frontal lobe did not!

Certainement!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: scottscheule on May 10, 2007, 09:38:42 AM
oh, that's it  ::)
i say Dover should make miniature scores of every work in existence so people could actually afford them all  0:)

I'm not sure how many of you know about the IMSLP, but the site is getting us closer to that state of affairs.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on May 11, 2007, 09:27:13 AM
I'm not sure how many of you know about the IMSLP, but the site is getting us closer to that state of affairs.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
i've downloaded all of Schoenberg's stuff on there already, excellent selection!
it'd be nice if they had the whole score to Moses Und Aron, though......

i also finished listening to Jakobsleiter and Gurrelieder awhile ago, good stuff though nothing compared to Moses Und Aron. It's seems that they don't have the Cello Concerto on Schoenberg's site, though....  :P
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 11, 2007, 11:17:48 AM
Posted this on the old forum,

You can listen to anything in Schoenberg's output at the Schoenberg Center's website (RealPlayer required):

http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op_e.htm (http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op_e.htm)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: scottscheule on May 12, 2007, 01:53:35 PM
I've been listening to Boulez's Erwartung:

http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Waldtaube-Erwartung-Zukerman-Barenboim/dp/B00000281B

Anyone know the disc, have an opinion?  Most reviews I find seem to be negative--I've never heard other recordings of the pieces, so I can't really say.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: scottscheule on May 15, 2007, 11:28:42 AM
About 18 listenings into Pierrot.  My favorite selection?  Has to be the penultimate barcarolle.  Second place goes to Madonna.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on May 15, 2007, 11:36:19 AM
I've been listening to Boulez's Erwartung:

http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Waldtaube-Erwartung-Zukerman-Barenboim/dp/B00000281B

Anyone know the disc, have an opinion?  Most reviews I find seem to be negative--I've never heard other recordings of the pieces, so I can't really say.

I wish I could comment, but I don't have this collection.  The reviews seem to be all over the map.  I love all the pieces, though, and had the good fortune in the last couple of years to hear Pierrot three times live, by Dawn Upshaw, Phyllis Bryn-Julson and Lucy Shelton, all quite good in different ways.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: scottscheule on May 15, 2007, 11:41:13 AM
I wish I could comment, but I don't have this collection.  The reviews seem to be all over the map.  I love all the pieces, though, and had the good fortune in the last couple of years to hear Pierrot three times live, by Dawn Upshaw, Phyllis Bryn-Julson and Lucy Shelton, all quite good in different ways.

--Bruce

No worries.  The consensus seems to be that the Pierrot's got too much song, not enough Spreche.  But that may be a good recording for approaching Schoenberg for the uninitiated.  To that end, the entire form of this album works well.  Erwartung is wonderfully done (save for this bizarre moment where the soloist gets too close to the mic and it feels like she's whispering in your ear, for no reason I can tell), and sounds tonal--if only vestigially.  You get lost in the dream of all that jagged romanticism--then Pierrot is a bucket of cold water.  And the final selection from Gurrelieder is a gorgeous little piece of dessert.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on May 16, 2007, 09:36:49 AM
About 18 listenings into Pierrot.  My favorite selection?  Has to be the penultimate barcarolle.  Second place goes to Madonna.

Say it ain't so!  The poor girl will just be crushed!

(http://www.energylab.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/madonna-calendar.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on June 10, 2007, 10:19:46 AM
anyone know German?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ig2KCb_jVE

Nuria Schoenberg is pretty  0:)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: mjwal on June 14, 2007, 09:03:28 AM
How marvellous to find a group of Schoenberg lovers. I recently fell in love with string quartet #4 by the Wihan Quartet. I may feel the same about #3 one day, but not yet; the great thing about S. is that one is always "discovering" pieces. One of my absolute favourites is the Violin Concerto - which I heard in Frankfurt about a year ago played by Hilary Hahn: a stunning eye-opener, though I have several recordings starting with Krasner/Mitropoulos. The good news is she has recorded this with Salonen  (it's coupled with the Sibelius). One of S.'s most moving works to me is Die glückliche Hand: I have the Boulez recording, but for expressiveness it must cede to the Scherchen recording on Orfeo (also containing op.16 and Erwartung, it is essential listening to understand the authentic style). DgH is the true precursor of Die Jakobsleiter, that perfect unfinished work, as has already been pointed out on this thread. And Pierrot was what introduced me to real modern music in my teens, together with Bartók's Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion - my latest thrill has been listening to the Silja/Craft version just out on Naxos.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on June 14, 2007, 09:18:42 AM
Wow, somehow Hilary Hahn's recording of the Violin Concerto has escaped me!  Here's a very good review (http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2006/Jan-Jun06/eotvos2903.htm) of her live performance last year at the Barbican -- sounds fantastic.  Thanks for mentioning it!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: rubio on June 29, 2007, 02:38:59 PM
I haven't listened at all to Schoenberg's music yet. Where should I start (1-2 works)? The string quartets, perhaps? Any recommendations for performances?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on June 29, 2007, 07:59:23 PM
I haven't listened at all to Schoenberg's music yet. Where should I start (1-2 works)? The string quartets, perhaps? Any recommendations for performances?

Start with Verklärte Nacht and the first Chamber Symphony.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Greta on June 29, 2007, 09:12:42 PM
Quote
The good news is she has recorded this with Salonen  (it's coupled with the Sibelius)

Can't wait for this release. Two gorgeous works and a great team. And Bruce, you haven't missed it yet, it's due for '08, with the Swedish RSO! ;)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: val on June 30, 2007, 02:56:19 AM
Quote
rubio

I haven't listened at all to Schoenberg's music yet. Where should I start (1-2 works)? The string quartets, perhaps? Any recommendations for performances?

Regarding the string quartets, I suggest the 2nd (with a soprano voice). To me it's the most beautiful of the four. But the 4th quartet, very dramatic but with a more traditional structure, may also be a good choice.

I love the interpretation of the Quartet Prazak.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: bwv 1080 on June 30, 2007, 06:43:16 AM
I haven't listened at all to Schoenberg's music yet. Where should I start (1-2 works)? The string quartets, perhaps? Any recommendations for performances?

You can listen to his entire output for free at the Schoenberg Center's website:

http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op_e.htm (http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op_e.htm)

I would start with:

5 Orchestral Pieces:
http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op16_e.htm (http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op16_e.htm)

Pierrot Lunaire
http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op21_e.htm (http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op21_e.htm)

Piano Concerto
http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op42_e.htm (http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/music/works/op/compositions_op42_e.htm)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on June 30, 2007, 07:43:35 AM
I haven't listened at all to Schoenberg's music yet. Where should I start (1-2 works)? The string quartets, perhaps? Any recommendations for performances?
The easy way in would be through Verklarte Nacht and the Chamber Symphonies. Beyond that, the Second Quartet is an ideal introduction to the composer's atonal world--it starts tonal and ends almost atonal--along with the masterly Five Orchestral Pieces, while the Piano Concerto is, I think, the most accessible of his serial pieces (as well as one of the best).

But try it before you buy with the website bwv 1080 mentioned.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: rubio on July 06, 2007, 08:54:02 AM
Start with Verklärte Nacht and the first Chamber Symphony.

So I started with this disc from the library - Karajan/BPO performing Verklärte Nacht and Pelleas und Melisande. I especially liked the Verklärte Nacht. It has a nice atmosphere and is quite tonal. Part of the first movement makes me think of Mahler, but later it has a different voice. The Pelleas und Melisande was also nice, and I think this recording was really good. Are there any you prefer for Verklärte Nacht?

So next up are the Chamber Symphonies.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZXRPKX2DL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on July 06, 2007, 09:07:49 AM
Are there any you prefer for Verklärte Nacht?

I love that Karajan recording.  I don't have another that I really like better, but if you're curious you might want to hear it in its original string sextet version, such as this one by the Juilliard Quartet. (http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Transfigured-Night-Joel-Krosnick/dp/B0000027PI/ref=sr_1_2/102-5466874-5712154?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183744955&sr=1-2)  (With special guests Walter Trampler and Yo-Yo Ma.  ;D)

And I haven't heard a version of Pelleas und Melisande that I like better than that one.  :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2007, 09:16:12 AM
Quote from: David Byrne?
And you may ask yourself, well, how does a quartet play a sextet? . . .

Same as I ever was 8)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on July 06, 2007, 09:20:25 AM
;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 18, 2007, 05:53:07 AM
All right, he was Schoenberg's student and friend . . . .

I've really enjoyed re-immersion in the Berg Violin Concerto.

(The following comment is a momentary thought, and in no way intended as firm advice second-guessing the composer.)

It would have to be so because of the row, of course;  but even as the soloist is playing those last ascending whole-tones, I couldn't help thinking how good a minor-second quasi-leading-tone would sound at the end . . . not that the pitch reached by that gesture would have to be the "tonic," at all.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on July 18, 2007, 12:39:29 PM
maybe Berg would've thought the same thing if he decided to not stick with the tone row?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on July 24, 2007, 10:09:44 AM
From Alex Ross' blog, an interesting post (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/07/schoenberg-thal.html) about Schoenberg's 1935 meeting with Irving Thalberg, head of production at MGM.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on August 28, 2007, 08:53:53 AM
Thanks to Bruce Hodges for the link above!

At my new Catholic school in Columbus here in Ohio the music teacher happened to see my Schoenberg poster for Pierrot and was thrilled to know that I am something of an expert on the composer.  She decided then to add Schoenberg to this year's list of composers for the higher grades, 6-8, and as a result I will be a guest speaker for the music class.    8)

Next project: spreading the good news about Karl Amadeus Hartmann!!!

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on August 28, 2007, 12:52:30 PM
Thanks to Bruce Hodges for the link above!

At my new Catholic school in Columbus here in Ohio the music teacher happened to see my Schoenberg poster for Pierrot and was thrilled to know that I am something of an expert on the composer.  She decided then to add Schoenberg to this year's list of composers for the higher grades, 6-8, and as a result I will be a guest speaker for the music class.    8)

Next project: spreading the good news about Karl Amadeus Hartmann!!!







Sounds terrific! I'm originally from Springfield, Ohio. I still miss the gorgeous Autumn weather.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on August 30, 2007, 08:26:44 AM




Sounds terrific! I'm originally from Springfield, Ohio. I still miss the gorgeous Autumn weather.

Springfield's Frank Lloyd Wright House is now restored and open as a museum.  Highly worthwhile, if you ever return for a visit!

Back to the topic: Schoenberg and Ohio and...Boulez!   :o

Boulez is conducting the Cleveland Orchestra this season in Schoenberg's  Pelleas und Melisande and other things of course.

I hinted to my wife that this could be a kind of Christmas present, even though the concert is in February.  We are 2 hours away in Columbus, so weather is a factor perhaps.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on August 30, 2007, 08:56:44 AM
Boulez is conducting the Cleveland Orchestra this season in Schoenberg's  Pelleas und Melisande and other things of course.

I hinted to my wife that this could be a kind of Christmas present, even though the concert is in February.  We are 2 hours away in Columbus, so weather is a factor perhaps.

What a nice gift that would be!  (I would accept a late Christmas present like that any time of year... ;D)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: pjme on August 30, 2007, 09:08:05 AM
Anybody visiting Brussels these days? The Klara festival ( Flemish National radio / broadcasting festival) starts with 3 performances of Gurrelieder :

From the website : http://www.klarafestival.be/index.php?id=888&L=2&tx_festival_pi1%5Buid%5D=825

Together with Gurre-Lieder, Verklärte Nacht is, one of the few pieces Schönberg was hugely successful with during his lifetime. Would it be a coincidence that KlaraFestival ends withVerklärte Nacht on 14 September? Gurre is the castle where King Valdemar’s ghosts and his followers roam every night after Valdemar’s mistress Tove was murdered by his queen. The music is indeed fairly easy to place in a tonal sense, the tonal and atonal worlds merge into each other through chromaticism. The Gurre-Lieder is a summarising work that composers manage to pull off only very rarely. It has the monumental and vocal characteristics of Beethoven on the one hand and the chromatics and even a little bit of the leitmotiv method of Wagner on the other hand. The Gurre-Lieder are the culmination of the entire journey from Bach to Bruckner, which decorate, relax and chromatically carry through functional harmony in such a way that in a harmonic sense there was no longer a leading figure, a hierarchy or a foundation.

Date 04/09/2007
Start 19.00u
Concert venue Bozar - Henry Le Boeuf
City Brussels
Programme A. Schönberg, Gurre-Lieder
Artist(s) Dir. Mark Wigglesworth
In cooperation with La Monnaie
Coproduction De Nederlandse Opera & Bozar Music
Fees 85 / 65 / 55 / 45 / 25 / 10 euro
Tickets online click here

I doubt I'll be able to get there....but will listen to the radiobroadcast.

Peter
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on August 30, 2007, 09:16:20 AM
Thanks so much, Peter!  I think I can listen to the broadcast as well, and this sounds great.  I am a big fan of Wigglesworth, ever since hearing him conduct Shostakovich a few years ago. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2007, 09:23:40 AM
"Wigglesworth" is such a made-up name!  ;D
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Bonehelm on September 03, 2007, 11:39:49 PM
Does anyone have some easy Schoenberg to recommend? I'm new to serialsim and atonality and all that, been listening to mainly late-romantic stuff. :) Something with clear ideas and development would be great, thanks :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 04, 2007, 05:09:04 AM
Does anyone have some easy Schoenberg to recommend? I'm new to serialsim and atonality and all that, been listening to mainly late-romantic stuff. :) Something with clear ideas and development would be great, thanks :)

this CD right here is a masterpiece:

http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Berg-Webern-Orchestral-Karajan/dp/B000031WYL/ref=pd_bbs_10/104-4305240-7351168?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1188914877&sr=8-10
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2007, 05:47:15 AM
Does anyone have some easy Schoenberg to recommend? I'm new to serialsim and atonality and all that, been listening to mainly late-romantic stuff. :) Something with clear ideas and development would be great, thanks :)

"Easy" and Schoenberg do not readily inhabit the same sentence :-)

But with that thought, I'd recommend the Serenade Opus 24.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on September 04, 2007, 07:45:41 AM
Some of my high school students found later things like the Piano Concerto and the Violin Concerto of great interest.

Certainly the Five Orchestral Pieces were also of interest.

Pelleas und Melisande will show you why Schoenberg thought he needed a break from tonality, especially in the work's more id-expressive moments.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 04, 2007, 10:03:43 AM
Bonehelm, also worthy mentioning as a good entry point is his String Quartet #2, Op.10. This piece will most likely excite you if you're coming fresh to Schoenberg...the last 2 movements of this amazing work steps over the line into the shifting eerie soundscape of atonality...a move announced by a soprano who sings prophetically "I breathe the air of other planets."
yep, that's the one that at first i didn't think much of but it really grew on me, really amazing stuff
probably the first piece ever to cause a really riot-like premiere (maybe?)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 09, 2007, 07:37:35 AM
 I am torn between String Quartet #2 and Pierrot Lunaire for "good entry points".

I definitely would not reccomend his SQ's #'s 3 and 4 for people starting out with Schoenberg, primarily because those two might actually scare away a novice; I nominate his SQ # 3 (and perhaps Shostakovich's SQ # 7) as perhaps the most horrifying pieces of Heavy Metal ever produced.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 03:38:45 AM
What I'm enjoying about this late exchange is, that although Schoenberg seems generally still to labor under an impression of "difficulty," here there is a refreshing variety of 'where to start with Schoenberg' . . . so almost any Schoenberg piece which Listener n1 finds 'difficult', seems to have a corresponding Listener n2 who finds that very piece The Threshold.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 10, 2007, 03:50:11 AM
What I'm enjoying about this late exchange is, that although Schoenberg seems generally still to labor under an impression of "difficulty," here there is a refreshing variety of 'where to start with Schoenberg' . . . so almost any Schoenberg piece which Listener n1 finds 'difficult', seems to have a corresponding Listener n2 who finds that very piece The Threshold.





This is an excellent point, and I admit that I was a bit overwhelmed when I first heard Schoenberg pieces like the 4th String Quartet. The 3rd SQ literally frightened me (particularly the brilliant, dense 1st movement). But when I slapped on Pierrot Lunaire, I was immediately enthralled and admiring. As Karl mentioned, that's just me personally. Others might get more of an "accessible" vibe from Schoenbeg's other works.

To this day, I play Pierrot Lunaire and the 2nd SQ more than any of his other works; just my preference.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 03:55:14 AM
Good morning, Andy!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 10, 2007, 04:47:29 AM
If someone's not going to get the atonal Schoenberg, they're just not going to get Schoenberg. Might as well start with the most characteristic stuff. My intro to Schoenberg was the Five Pieces for Orchestra op. 16. My small town public library actually had LPs of a lot of modern classical music so I used to go in there when I was a kid and check stuff out. For me, the attraction of Schoenberg was "hey, this music hasn't got any key or nothin'". My only disappointment was that the record didn't have any 12-tone music on it. I wanted to hear what that sounded like.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 10, 2007, 04:52:28 AM
Good morning, Andy!




Best Morning Blessings, Karl  :).
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 10, 2007, 04:56:22 AM




This is an excellent point, and I admit that I was a bit overwhelmed when I first heard Schoenberg pieces like the 4th String Quartet. The 3rd SQ literally frightened me (particularly the brilliant, dense 1st movement). But when I slapped on Pierrot Lunaire, I was immediately enthralled and admiring. As Karl mentioned, that's just me personally. Others might get more of an "accessible" vibe from Schoenbeg's other works.

To this day, I play Pierrot Lunaire and the 2nd SQ more than any of his other works; just my preference.
isn't that saying a lot when Schoenberg can frighten a heavy metal, ex-street fighting tough guy?  ;D
it's like i always said us classical folk have the most hard core music on the planet  >:D  ;D

anyways, Pierrot Lunaire is one Schoenberg piece that hasn't grown on me yet. Will it eventually? maybe, maybe not. I know i love the very opening where the piano does that arpeggio figure and the singer starts up, it's just so perfectly mysterious! I also like the end, though i can't remember how it goes. The whole middle just might take a while, maybe after a thousand listenings i'll get it  ;D

probably the thing that "first" opened me up to Schoenberg was the five orchestral pieces, the first movement is like an ecstatic death march, the middle movements so thoughtful and pensive, and then the last movements the fury is back! Sounds accessible...


If someone's not going to get the atonal Schoenberg, they're just not going to get Schoenberg. Might as well start with the most characteristic stuff. My intro to Schoenberg was the Five Pieces for Orchestra op. 16. My small town public library actually had LPs of a lot of modern classical music so I used to go in there when I was a kid and check stuff out. For me, the attraction of Schoenberg was "hey, this music hasn't got any key or nothin'". My only disappointment was that the record didn't have any 12-tone music on it. I wanted to hear what that sounded like.
i just finished typing my post when you wrote this
i like that "hey, this music hasn't got any key or nothin'" lol! that's the same thing i was thinking
op.16 is definetely a good introduction, especially if you're into heavy, powerful music

the first thing i ever actually "heard" by Schoenberg was these 5 or so bars i typed into Noteworthy Composer that i got from a 12-tone book (and i never heard serial music at that time). It was from a piano piece, still can't remember which, but i thought it was cool.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on September 10, 2007, 05:04:49 AM

This is an excellent point, and I admit that I was a bit overwhelmed when I first heard Schoenberg pieces like the 4th String Quartet. The 3rd SQ literally frightened me (particularly the brilliant, dense 1st movement).

I still vividly recall a July day many decades ago, and our valiant little plastic stereo is attempting to squeeze forth Schoenberg's Third and Fourth Quartets at high volume (of course!).

My mother comes in fuming: "I've had it with that stuff!  Don't you realize it's hot enough already in here!?!"   

So I had to wait for the weather to cool down...or for my mother to cool down!    0:)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 10, 2007, 05:57:42 AM
I still vividly recall a July day many decades ago, and our valiant little plastic stereo is attempting to squeeze forth Schoenberg's Third and Fourth Quartets at high volume (of course!).

My mother comes in fuming: "I've had it with that stuff!  Don't you realize it's hot enough already in here!?!"   

So I had to wait for the weather to cool down...or for my mother to cool down!    0:)
same reactions that would come from my parents, probably most parents  :P
(they just aren't hip and cool ya know?)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 06:15:23 AM
At this point, if we're in the space hearing it performed, Maria will enjoy Schoenberg.  She has very different patience-aspects when it's a matter of listening to a recording at home.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on September 10, 2007, 07:58:32 AM
At this point, if we're in the space hearing it performed, Maria will enjoy Schoenberg.  She has very different patience-aspects when it's a matter of listening to a recording at home.

Aye!  Herr Schoenberg is not too welcome when my wife is around!

"Why don't you play something pleasant once in a while?"

Schoenberg?  Not pleasant?!     :o      0:)   
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 10, 2007, 10:46:56 AM
I still vividly recall a July day many decades ago, and our valiant little plastic stereo is attempting to squeeze forth Schoenberg's Third and Fourth Quartets at high volume (of course!).

My mother comes in fuming: "I've had it with that stuff!  Don't you realize it's hot enough already in here!?!"   

So I had to wait for the weather to cool down...or for my mother to cool down!    0:)



 :D


Post, and story, of the day.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 10, 2007, 10:49:08 AM
At this point, if we're in the space hearing it performed, Maria will enjoy Schoenberg.  She has very different patience-aspects when it's a matter of listening to a recording at home.





My girl thinks alot of Schoenberg's music is "too creepy". Being that I happen to really enjoy "creepy music" in general, I tend to just throw on the headphones!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on September 10, 2007, 03:12:23 PM
Aye!  Herr Schoenberg is not too welcome when my wife is around!

"Why don't you play something pleasant once in a while?"

Schoenberg?  Not pleasant?!     :o      0:)   
My wife claims Webern makes her physically ill. But she sat through Peter Serkin playing the Schoenberg piano concerto with apparent enjoyment.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 11, 2007, 11:25:52 AM




My girl thinks alot of Schoenberg's music is "too creepy". Being that I happen to really enjoy "creepy music" in general, I tend to just throw on the headphones!
you should throw on a CD of one of Penderecki's orchestral works, just turn it up all the way to bug her.... no, even better, turn on the Threnody to wake her up in the morning instead of an alarm clock

"It's time to rise and schine!"
 :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Catison on September 14, 2007, 01:17:18 PM
This is an excellent point, and I admit that I was a bit overwhelmed when I first heard Schoenberg pieces like the 4th String Quartet. The 3rd SQ literally frightened me (particularly the brilliant, dense 1st movement). But when I slapped on Pierrot Lunaire, I was immediately enthralled and admiring. As Karl mentioned, that's just me personally. Others might get more of an "accessible" vibe from Schoenbeg's other works.

I find this happens a lot.  A work like Pierrot is inpenetrable to most people.  Yet after being confronted with the likes of String Quartet No. 3, coming back to Pierrot is a treat.  And whadyaknow, they actually like the piece.  I often seek out the weirdest most extreme example of something in order to tune my ear and thus enjoy a greater variety of music.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Haffner on September 14, 2007, 01:20:23 PM
I find this happens a lot.  A work like Pierrot is inpenetrable to most people.  Yet after being confronted with the likes of String Quartet No. 3, coming back to Pierrot is a treat.  And whadyaknow, they actually like the piece.  I often seek out the weirdest most extreme example of something in order to tune my ear and thus enjoy a greater variety of music.





Efficacious approach!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Catison on September 16, 2007, 12:53:52 PM
Ronald Schoenberg talks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egmZxK4OhuE) about Arnold Schoenberg
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on May 16, 2008, 06:47:48 AM
Reviving this thread.  0:)

The Arnold Schoenberg Center has released newly-surfaced footage of the Schoenbergs at home in California, carousing with a staggering chunk of intelligentsia living there in exile, or just visiting.

http://www.youtube.com/v/hr_ViW2rNt4
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: kristopaivinen on May 16, 2008, 09:11:55 AM
Reviving this thread.  0:)

The Arnold Schoenberg Center has released newly-surfaced footage of the Schoenbergs at home in California, carousing with a staggering chunk of intelligentsia living there in exile, or just visiting.
No sound...

What's Russell doing here? I don't imagine him having any relation to Schoenberg or his music.

Except for the anatomy, Schoenberg looks very much like Rodney Dangerfield, especially in his facial gestures. Imagine Schoenberg telling those jokes.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on May 16, 2008, 10:45:52 AM
No sound...

Yeah, well they hadn't invented VHS recorders quite yet at that time.  ::)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on May 17, 2008, 03:39:53 AM
What's Russell doing here? I don't imagine him having any relation to Schoenberg or his music.

I forgot to say something about this. What in blue hell does Schoenberg's music have to do with his choice of acquaintances? Isn't it at all possible they were... friends?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: kristopaivinen on May 17, 2008, 04:28:27 AM
I forgot to say something about this. What in blue hell does Schoenberg's music have to do with his choice of acquaintances? Isn't it at all possible they were... friends?

Then I expect there to be sources citing their friendship, other than this video which only shows Russell but not Schoenberg. Is there more information on that?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on May 17, 2008, 04:36:08 AM
I forgot to say something about this. What in blue hell does Schoenberg's music have to do with his choice of acquaintances? Isn't it at all possible they were... friends?
you never know w/out sound...... they could worst enemies, telling each other yo momma jokes over a fresh Saulgar or two.....
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on May 17, 2008, 05:06:00 AM
Then I expect there to be sources citing their friendship, other than this video which only shows Russell but not Schoenberg. Is there more information on that?

I don't have any other information other than the description of the video from the site:

The Home video, taken by Serge Hovey, shows Schönberg and friends such as Ira Gershwin, Thomas Mann, Bertrand Russell, and Richard Buhlig at a beach party in Malibu, further family members: Ronald and Nuria Schoenberg, additional clip: Aldous Huxley.

Since the video comes from so authoritative a source as the Arnold Schoenberg Center in Vienna, I will take it their word for it. Russell was actually lecturing at the university in Los Angeles at the time, and with the concentration of European intellectual society in California, it's not at all surprising that they would have at least met.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Mark G. Simon on May 17, 2008, 09:56:13 AM
Maybe Schoenberg invited Mann over to threaten legal action against him for making Adrian Leverkühn the inventor of the 12 tone system in Doktor Faustus, and he made this film of Mann stating his defense, figuring he could get a lip reader to transcribe it, and from there hand the text to his lawyer.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on May 17, 2008, 10:02:36 AM
Maybe Schoenberg invited Mann over to threaten legal action against him for making Adrian Leverkühn the inventor of the 12 tone system in Doktor Faustus, and he made this film of Mann stating his defense, figuring he could get a lip reader to transcribe it, and from there hand the text to his lawyer.

Mann states at the beginning of Faustus that the 12-tone method is Schoenberg's intellectual property. Ipso facto, your joke is a failure.

... still funny, though. ;D
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Mark G. Simon on May 17, 2008, 10:26:07 AM
Mann states at the beginning of Faustus that the 12-tone method is Schoenberg's intellectual property.

Perhaps as a result of that meeting
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on June 29, 2008, 06:54:41 PM
Quote from: wikipedia
The summer of 1908, during which his wife Mathilde left him for several months for a young Austrian painter, Richard Gerstl (who committed suicide after her return to her husband and children), marked a distinct change in Schoenberg's work. It was during the absence of his wife that he composed "You lean against a silver-willow" (German: Du lehnest wider eine Silberweide), the thirteenth song in the cycle Das Buch der Hängenden Gärten, op. 15, based on the collection of the same name by the German mystical poet Stefan George; this was the first composition without any reference at all to a key (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 96). Also in this year he completed one of his most revolutionary compositions, the String Quartet No. 2, whose first two movements, though chromatic in color, use traditional key signatures, yet whose final two movements, also settings of Stefan George, weaken the links with traditional tonality daringly (though both movements end on tonic chords, and the work is not yet fully non-tonal) and, breaking with previous string-quartet practice, incorporate a soprano vocal line.
Ok, I've read this before in one of my books, too..... did he write op.15 before op.10?  ??? And did he write the 13th song first?
And what about the "no key reference" thing? None of those songs is in a key signature, although they are kinda tonal. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on September 16, 2008, 09:23:51 AM
Alex Ross has a post today (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2008/09/anniversaries-i.html) that made me chuckle, again making a case for "Worldwide Atonality Day," with a suggested date of September 27.  This time he cites the centennial of Schoenberg's "Du lehnest wider eine Silberweide" (from Buch der hängenden Gärten), written on September 27, 1908.

I'll be happy to supply champagne.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 16, 2008, 10:05:48 AM
A century of Atonality!  0:)

Let us all mass murderers and serial killers unite, join hands, and sing "You lean against a white willow".
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:10:06 AM
Alex Ross has a post today (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2008/09/anniversaries-i.html) that made me chuckle, again making a case for "Worldwide Atonality Day," with a suggested date of September 27.  This time he cites the centennial of Schoenberg's "Du lehnest wider eine Silberweide" (from Buch der hängenden Gärten), written on September 27, 1908.

I'll be happy to supply champagne.  ;D

--Bruce

Let's make it happen!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 06, 2009, 03:31:45 PM
Ten years ago, in Ann Arbor, the Berlin Philharmonic under Claudio Abbado played Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande with practically every note perfect, the polyphony as clear as chamber music, and the emotionalism as "edgy" as one could want in the work.

I always hoped they would release a CD of the work.  I am still waiting!   0:)

My favorite CD of this work remains Matthias Bamert's with the Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos.  Amazon shows that the latest recording is by the Saint Louis Symphony: any comments on that one?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 06, 2009, 04:48:07 PM
Hmm . . . time to break out the Craft recording, to which I still have not listened yet . . . .
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 06, 2009, 04:51:54 PM
Amazon shows that the latest recording is by the Saint Louis Symphony: any comments on that one?

Can't help as far as the St. Louis Symphony recording but this disc has always done the trick for me:


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5e/2c/4351228348a0ade6d5e5e010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on April 06, 2009, 05:30:32 PM
Can't help as far as the St. Louis Symphony recording but this disc has always done the trick for me:


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5e/2c/4351228348a0ade6d5e5e010.L.jpg)

Thanks for the recommendation: and I love how Christian Thielemann gets top billing over both Schoenberg and Wagner

Conductor cults belong on trains!   $:)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on April 06, 2009, 05:40:20 PM
I recently acquired this 2-fer with Boulez's Pelleas but haven't listened yet. Will be sure to post once I do.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WZN2RBVFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on April 06, 2009, 05:43:11 PM
You know, they have Boulez doing the op.5 on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkAEWQB0WI


(I'm about to listen to it after I finish with the op.34....)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 06, 2009, 06:23:43 PM
Thanks for the recommendation: and I love how Christian Thielemann gets top billing over both Schoenberg and Wagner

Conductor cults belong on trains!   $:)

Well, be kind to this disc - it's the genuine article. 0:)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2009, 03:31:24 AM
Quote
Hmm . . . time to break out the Craft recording, to which I still have not listened yet . . . .

I Like It!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: ChamberNut on April 07, 2009, 04:21:12 AM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5e/2c/4351228348a0ade6d5e5e010.L.jpg)

Hmm, I want to start exploring Schoenberg....and I want Wagner's Siegfried Idyll in my collection.....and I really like Christian Thielemann.

This sounds like the perfect disc for me!

 8)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
I do think that's a good fit, Ray!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Kullervo on April 07, 2009, 08:09:40 AM
Hmm, I want to start exploring Schoenberg....and I want Wagner's Siegfried Idyll in my collection.....and I really like Christian Thielemann.

This sounds like the perfect disc for me!

 8)

Might I suggest this disc as a supplement?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513esy4ZFyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2009, 08:44:27 AM
And a most tasty suggestion it is, Corey!  Give it a spin, Ray!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: ChamberNut on April 07, 2009, 08:53:24 AM
Might I suggest this disc as a supplement?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513esy4ZFyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Excellent, thanks Corey!

Incidently, I just listened to the Verklarte Nacht for string sextet via Naxos on-line library (Naxos Classical Archives).  It was a performance by the Hollywood SQ with Alvin Dinkin, viola II and Kurt Reher, cello II.  It was beautiful!  :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: ChamberNut on April 07, 2009, 09:00:12 AM
Incidently, I just listened to the Verklarte Nacht for string sextet via Naxos on-line library (Naxos Classical Archives).  It was a performance by the Hollywood SQ with Alvin Dinkin, viola II and Kurt Reher, cello II.  It was beautiful!  :)

Speaking of this wonderful piece, I envison that this is often paired up with Strauss' Metamorphosen.  At least, it looks like it would make a nice pairing.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2009, 09:01:33 AM
Good call, Ray.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on April 10, 2009, 12:33:22 PM
Excellent, thanks Corey!

Incidently, I just listened to the Verklarte Nacht for string sextet via Naxos on-line library (Naxos Classical Archives).  It was a performance by the Hollywood SQ with Alvin Dinkin, viola II and Kurt Reher, cello II.  It was beautiful!  :)
That is, to my mind, an absolutely amazing performance. The Testament issue of it and Schubert's D956 (also with the Hollywood SQ) would be unquestionably one of my desert island discs.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 07:09:52 AM
Excellent, thanks Corey!

Incidently, I just listened to the Verklarte Nacht for string sextet via Naxos on-line library (Naxos Classical Archives).  It was a performance by the Hollywood SQ with Alvin Dinkin, viola II and Kurt Reher, cello II.  It was beautiful!  :)

Ray, have you heard the Chamber Symphonies yet? Have ya?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: ChamberNut on June 14, 2009, 07:57:13 AM
Ray, have you heard the Chamber Symphonies yet? Have ya?

Only once, three years ago, it was paired up with Beethoven's 1st Symphony and the Leonore Overture I.  I don't remember it, so I will have to pay it a visit again! :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 08:32:50 AM
Both of 'em, Ray, both of 'em!  They're both on that splendid disc mentioned here:

Might I suggest this disc as a supplement?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513esy4ZFyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

. . . and both of them are also on the Phillips two-fer reissue of the Ozawa/BSO/&al. late-'70s account of Gurrelieder (though performed by other forces than the G.)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 04:46:00 AM
There's a Ray post missing on this thread  ;)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Brewski on July 06, 2009, 06:07:08 AM
Have been giving some serious listens to Hilary Hahn's fabulous performance of the Schoenberg Violin Concerto--heroic, by any measure.  Her confidence is unbelievable, and Salonen and the Swedish ensemble are terrific.  I'm not the first to say it: this might be the recording that turns someone on to the composer.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 02:40:42 AM
Have been giving some serious listens to Hilary Hahn's fabulous performance of the Schoenberg Violin Concerto--heroic, by any measure.  Her confidence is unbelievable, and Salonen and the Swedish ensemble are terrific.  I'm not the first to say it: this might be the recording that turns someone on to the composer.

Or, which convinces some listeners that Schoenberg is musical, even after Gurrelieder and Verklärte Nacht.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine: Wall Street Journal Article
Post by: Cato on September 25, 2009, 05:37:10 AM
Yesterday's (September 24th) Wall Street Journal carried an article on Arnold Schoenberg's music as connected to Kandinsky's paintings, and the formation of Der Blaue Reiter.

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574429032306681244.html
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine: Wall Street Journal Article
Post by: Franco on September 25, 2009, 05:43:29 AM
Yesterday's (September 24th) Wall Street Journal carried an article on Arnold Schoenberg's music as connected to Kandinsky's paintings, and the formation of Der Blaue Reiter.

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574429032306681244.html

I saw that but did not read it.  But a few years ago I went to an exhibit that was also exploring their correspondence and friendship.  I bought the catalog and was somewhat familiar with the idea.  But thanks for posting the link since I would like to refresh my memory by reading the article in the WSJ.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine: Wall Street Journal Article
Post by: Brewski on September 25, 2009, 05:53:56 AM
Yesterday's (September 24th) Wall Street Journal carried an article on Arnold Schoenberg's music as connected to Kandinsky's paintings, and the formation of Der Blaue Reiter.

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574429032306681244.html

I went to Miller Theatre on Wednesday night, and mostly liked the piece a lot.  If nothing else, you could just close your eyes and listen to Sarah Rothenberg's superb piano work in Schoenberg's Three Piano Pieces and Scriabin's Vers la flamme (my faves), or Susan Narucki's gorgeous soprano in Schoenberg's Second String Quartet.  But the visuals actually worked most of the time, which is not usually the case.  I found the whole evening quite interesting.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: CD on September 27, 2009, 09:34:47 AM
Great news for fools (like me) that snapped them up separately.  >:( It might be worth it if OOP stuff like the choral works are included.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: greg on September 29, 2009, 10:28:53 AM
I assume this means before long they'll have a Complete Schoenberg box set?...
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on March 01, 2010, 02:01:09 PM
WHERE IS MY SCHOENBERG?!!???!!!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on March 02, 2010, 08:07:12 AM
WHERE IS MY SCHOENBERG?!!???!!!

I want my Boulez Conducts boxes!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2010, 08:37:10 AM
I want my Boulez Conducts boxes!

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on March 02, 2010, 09:48:08 AM
This release

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412X4B7X64L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

is special because, if I recall correctly, in includes the first chamber symphony Op 9b, which is a revised version scored for full orchestra, rather than chamber orchestra.   I find it more satisfying than the original version for 15 solo instruments, and Inbal's performance is superb.  The fine, Philips analog sound is also first rate.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Lethevich on March 02, 2010, 10:36:06 AM
Thanks for pointing this out. I love the chamber symphonies for their maximal chamber music style, but if Verklärte Nacht worked well, then surely this will too.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: abidoful on March 02, 2010, 01:35:26 PM
Nice thread :)
Some of my fav;
Songs op 2 ("Jesus Bettelt!!")
the supersweet "Verklärte Nacht", op 4
"Pelleas und Melisande"
The First String Quartet.op7 (...the ending melts my heart...)
Kammer Symphonie, op 9
The ballad, "Königin Grey"(wonderfully tragic..!)
Pierrot lunaire (totally crazy!!!)
ERWARTUNG
The piano suite (its cool)
The ochestral variations
Die Jakobsleiter (---wow--!!!"die seele"!!!)
The survivor of Warsaw
i think thats it (dony know them all---posiibly the Gurrelieder also, but i dont know it so well, and i hate the ending melodrama, or the way its done- sounds grotesque-not sure is it meant to...)

The orchestral variations
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg SQueel
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2010, 11:04:20 PM
I have reached an impasse with my listening of SQs 3-4.

Currently I have the Leipzigers/MDG, and, it drives me nuts, because with every version I hear, I can't tell, a), Are they playing it funny?, b), Is the music really written so jerkily? I imagine a completely smooth performance, but I haven't heard it yet. Technically, I like the group just fine, but, from the very first notes of No.3 I feel strange. What? Didn't they,?... huh?,... I can't even tell if I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. Anyway...

I had the New Vienna SQ/Philips, that I recall being shrill and,... well, I didn't really care for the music back then either, so,..., but I do recall, they had eh sound and the experience was just not there.

I hasten not to get the Arditti, just because of price (at the moment), but, do you think they are the best, overall?? I can certainly see them nailing 3-4 square and center, with plently of sound effects in No.4. Anyone?

Which brings me to the Kolisch set. Is this the only set that gets it right on 3-4? Or what? Again, I can certainly imagine. But, how is the recording? Again, so many questions, ack!!

There is no Julliard cd that I know of for 3-4.

There's the Schonberg/Chandos set I'm not keen on investing in. I don't recall the reviews, but I think they've got fair enough admiration so far. But, I'm not interested in a package.

I just want 3-4!! >:D >:D :o :o :o

And, I don't know what you think of the Leipziger group, but, I like them, but, I just keep getting this nagging feeling that something is missing. I almost feel they make the music sound more jerky than written. I could be wrong. If you tell me they nail it, ok, I'll listen more.

There is some strange one off cd on CPO of only No.3, with an analysis track after the quartet, as if this were the SQ No.3 Symposium. It's totally OOP. I don't know the group.

I think there may be one or two other single takes by other groups, but nothing pops out (something on Koch?). Where oh where shall I go on this??

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg SQueel
Post by: abidoful on March 02, 2010, 11:34:08 PM
I have reached an impasse with my listening of SQs 3-4.

Currently I have the Leipzigers/MDG, and, it drives me nuts, because with every version I hear, I can't tell, a), Are they playing it funny?, b), Is the music really written so jerkily? I imagine a completely smooth performance, but I haven't heard it yet. Technically, I like the group just fine, but, from the very first notes of No.3 I feel strange. What? Didn't they,?... huh?,... I can't even tell if I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. Anyway...


There is no Julliard cd that I know of for 3-4.

There's the Schonberg/Chandos set I'm not keen on investing in. I don't recall the reviews, but I think they've got fair enough admiration so far. But, I'm not interested in a package.

I just want 3-4!! >:D >:D :o :o :o

And, I don't know what you think of the Leipziger group, but, I like them, but, I just keep getting this nagging feeling that something is missing. I almost feel they make the music sound more jerky than written.


I suggest  you find the scores of those Quartets (if you can read the notes) and make your own opinion of them :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg SQueel
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2010, 03:18:20 AM
I have reached an impasse with my listening of SQs 3-4.

Currently I have the Leipzigers/MDG, and, it drives me nuts, because with every version I hear, I can't tell, a), Are they playing it funny?, b), Is the music really written so jerkily? I imagine a completely smooth performance, but I haven't heard it yet.

Number 3 is a rather jerky piece  ;D  Seriously, I don't hear a tremendous difference between the versions I own (Kohon on LP, Lasalle and Leipziger CD) although I would say the Lasalle is marginally smoother. It's available cheaply on Brilliant.

Quote
Which brings me to the Kolisch set. Is this the only set that gets it right on 3-4? Or what? Again, I can certainly imagine. But, how is the recording? Again, so many questions, ack!!

You can sample the Kolisch recording (two versions of number 3) here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Kolisch-Quartet-In-Honor-of-Rudolf-Kolisch/hnum/8102775) and the Lasalle here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Arnold-Sch%F6nberg-Streichquartette-Nr-1-4/hnum/9596644)  Arditti is OOP apparently. But if you're rich that won't be a problem  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2010, 05:02:46 AM
Huzzah!  Boulez Box 2 is en route!
Title: Op.7
Post by: snyprrr on April 27, 2010, 10:20:08 PM
I just the Schonberg Qrt. playing Op.7 on Koch ('88) to compare to the Leipzigers on MDG.

First off, I'll just give the recording to MDG, the Koch is characterful.

The performance, however, I'll give to the Schonberg group. They have the Romantic ardour, whereas the Leipzigers come off more like the ABQ. The SQ thrust forth from the first note with just more passion, playing the arching lines with just a bit more human drama to the LSQ's emotionally cleaner take. I'm not taking anything away from the LSQ, I just think that since the SQ only recorded this one quartet, they put that much more into it, perhaps.

Another feature of the Koch disc is the seperation of the single mvmt qrt into 20 tracks, as the quartet is written. The downside here is that there is no detailed tracklisting, with timings, just sub-listings, with timings for the four mvmts. Here, the MDG release, though keeping to four tracks for the quartet, has a detailed outline of the qrt's structure in the tracklisting section. After all, it is a quartet based on this complex structure. That is why Koch's oversight is so cruddy. Some of the tracks are very short, which makes for excellent study, so, it does behoove me to write my own listing.



As for the music in general, as if that's necessary, this particular release positively reminds me of Reger's d minor quartet (CPO/Bern SQ), which is also of monstrous proportions. In both, there is a surging fin de siecle malaise that I find appealing. Especially in Schoenberg, there is that hysterical overreaching, like a Hollywood Frankenstein movie, that so expresses the tearing at the limbs of tonality as it was at the turn of the century, just before it snapped. Both recordings highlight a pale, moonlight glow to the proceedings, which in each case brings out the macabre quality of these Ultra Late Romantic barnstormers. There's a bit of the Sherlock chasing the Ripper here, haha.

I don't know if you can call this music original, or if it's 'kitchen sink' music, using every device known to man at the time (the tumbleweed garden!), but, here Schoenberg keeps my attention for almost an hour. I do hear some indications of that insistant rhythm that seems to start off both SQs 3-4 (that actually permeates those pieces).

Anyhow, I can't imagine the Ardittis sounding all that much different from the LSQ (probably even less emotional?), and the New Vienna on Philips (and LaSalle) will have to be an also ran, which leaves the Kolisch, and,...isn't that the Schonberg Quartet again on Chandos??
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: DavidW on April 28, 2010, 05:47:42 AM
I don't think that you've characterized the Leipzig Q right at all.  Their style is very different from the more modernist approach of the Arditti Q.  They bring passion and warmth to Schoenberg without treating him like Brahms.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 28, 2010, 08:19:20 AM
Now THIS looks like an enticing new disc - featuring the String Trio and a bunch of other pieces. Anyone heard it yet?:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61agj49Rv1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2010, 09:02:36 AM
I believe that's a reissue (and shuffle) of Koch releases . . . so of that lot, I have only heard Craft's recording of the Opus 34, which is not a large-scale work, but hot.

All the other pieces I have heard in other recordings . . . it's on Naxos: nab it!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: snyprrr on April 29, 2010, 09:50:36 AM
I don't think that you've characterized the Leipzig Q right at all.  Their style is very different from the more modernist approach of the Arditti Q.  They bring passion and warmth to Schoenberg without treating him like Brahms.

But didn't I compare them with the ABQ, and not the Arditti? I'd love to just hear the Arditti, though, because I get the feeling they might be the only ones with the severity, and third person detachment, that I need for Nos.3-4. I dooo wonder, though, about their humanity in No.1/Op.7. If you like the Leipzigers, then, you'll love the Schonberg.

So,... who treats Op.7 like Brahms?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2010, 09:52:19 AM
But didn't I compare them with the ABQ, and not the Arditti? I'd love to just hear the Arditti, though, because I get the feeling they might be the only ones with the severity, and third person detachment, that I need for Nos.3-4. I dooo wonder, though, about their humanity in No.1/Op.7. If you like the Leipzigers, then, you'll love the Schonberg.

So,... who treats Op.7 like Brahms?

Oh sorry then.  The Brahms treatment comes from New Vienna. :)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 10:06:35 AM
Oh sorry then.  The Brahms treatment comes from New Vienna. :)

I think that's all right, though. Schoenberg revered Brahms the Progressive.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 03, 2010, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: Schoenberg

On revient toujours (1948)
 
I remember with great pleasure a ride in a Viennese fiacre through the renowned Höllenthal.  The fiacre went very slowly and we could discuss and admire all the beauty and, even more, the frightening aspects which gave the name to this Valley of the Hell.  I always regret that one might never possess nerves calm enough to endure such a slow ride.
 
At least, when only twenty years later I made a trip by auto through one of the most renowned valleys in Switzerland, I saw almost nothing and my companion on this occasion rather mentioned some of the commercial and industrial aspects this valley offered.  In twenty years people had lost the interest to take an eyeful of these beauties and enjoy them.
 
Of these two cases I had to think, when recently a German—a former pupil and assistant of mine!—asked me what he should answer when people demanded from him whether I had abandoned twelve-tone composing, as at present I so often compose tonal music: the Band Variations, Op. 42b, the Second Kammersymphonie, the Suite for String Orchestra and several others.
 
My answer was tuned to the pitch of the two true stories aforementioned, founded upon some historic facts.  I said: One should be surprised to find that the classic composers—Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms and even Wagner—after Bach’s contrapuntal climax, in spite of their in essence homophonic style, so often interpolate strict counterpoint differing from Bach’s counterpoint only by such features as the progress in music had brought about; that is, a more elaborate development through variations of the motive.
 
One cannot deny that the combination of these two structural methods is surprising, because they are contradictory.  In contrapuntal style the theme is practically unchangeable and all the necessary contrasts are produced by the addition of one or more voices.  Homophony produces all its contrasts by developing variation.  But these great masters possessed such an eminent sense of the ethical and aesthetical requirements of their art that the problem whether this is wrong can simply be disregarded.
 
I had not foreseen that my explanation of this stylistic deviation might also explain my own deviations.  I used to say: The classic masters, educated in admiration of the works of great masters of counterpoint, from Palestrina to Bach, must have been tempted to return often to the art of their predecessors, which they considered superior to their own.  Such is the modesty of people who could venture to act haughtily;  they appreciated achievements of others, though they themselves are not devoid of pride.  Only a man who himself deserves respect is capable of paying respect to another man.  Only one who knows merits can recognize the merits of other men.  Such feelings might have developed in a longing once again to try to achieve, in the older style, what they were sure they could achieve in their own more advanced style.
 
It is a feeling similar to that which would give  preference over the fast automobile, to the slow, leisurely fiacre;  which desires occasionally to dwell in the old, rather primitive living circumstances of our predecessors.  It is not that we wanted to nullify all progress, though machinery has eliminated so many crafts:  bookbinding, cabinet making, calligraphy, wood-carving and—almost—painting.
 
When I had finished my first Kammersymphonie, Opus 9, I told my friends: ‘Now I have established my style.  I know now how I have to compose.’
 
But my next work showed a great deviation from this style;  it was a first step towards my present style.  My destiny had forced me in this direction—I was not destined to continue in the manner of Transfigured Night or Gurrelieder or even Pelleas and Melisande.  The Supreme Commander had ordered me on a harder road.
 
But a longing to return to the older style was always vigorous in me;  and from time to time I had to yield to that urge.
 
This is how and why I sometimes write tonal music.  To me stylistic differences of this nature are not of special importance.  I do not know which of my compositions are better;  I like them all, because I liked them when I wrote them.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 03, 2010, 06:11:49 PM
The interesting serendipity here is that Watkins refers to this essay in The Gesualdo Hex . . . it wasn't clear to me in Watkins's book that "On revient toujours" was the title of an essay, though.  I took up Style and Idea today, and checked the index . . . wanted to see what (if anything) Schoenberg might have said about Mendelssohn, at least, what he might have said which is included in this anthology.  The name Mendelssohn appears only twice in the book . . . and once is in this essay, which I then realized was one of Watkins's sources in his book.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 04, 2010, 05:00:05 AM
I believe that's a reissue (and shuffle) of Koch releases . . . so of that lot, I have only heard Craft's recording of the Opus 34, which is not a large-scale work, but hot.

Given Karl's comment and the discussion on the String Quartets made me remember a story from long ago (45 years or more).  I have probably told it before here, but if you missed it...

It was a very hot July afternoon, and I was playing an LP of the String Quartets III and IV.   It was filling most of the house, and at some point my mother came in and announced:

"Turn that stuff off!  It's hot enough as it is!!!"

(Except she didn't really say "stuff" unfortunately!   0:)   )

So, yes, Schoenberg can apparently cause actual physical heat!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 05:05:15 AM
Good morning, Cato! The perfect day for "An American Hero," BTW : )
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 05:12:36 AM
And for those at home:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZhNDsTGgQss

Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene [Accompanying music to a film scene], Op. 34 (1930)
RSO Berlin
Bertini
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Franco on July 04, 2010, 05:27:01 AM


The except you quoted from Schoenberg is beautiful.  I am often struck by the animosity directed at this man by people who know very little about him other than he had the audacity to write music they are incapable of understanding or even tolerating.  It is sad, I think, that he has been turned into a sort of devil by some quarters of the classical music audience.

Speaking for myself, I consider his music some of the most beautiful I have heard.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 04, 2010, 06:25:14 AM
Good morning, Cato! The perfect day for "An American Hero," BTW : )

Scrooge McDuck certainly is heroic!   8)



Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 07:53:27 AM
I can unqualified recommend The Gesualdo Hex to everyone here (at GMG -- the broader here);  in particular, though, any of us who take interest in Schoenberg should feel something close to an obligation to read chapter 5, "Conversations at the Brink: A Schoenberg-Leibowitz Correspondence, 1945-1950."
 
It's tempting to type in an excerpt, but the whole chapter is so apt and such a good read . . . just do it ; )
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on July 04, 2010, 07:55:36 AM
In the context of Schoenberg still liking to write tonal music, I sometimes play "guess the composer" with Weihnachtsmusik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR94CiqtFLs). It might well be my favourite of Schoenberg's not-really-transcriptions.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 07:57:39 AM
Wow, how about that Fourth Quartet?  I go back to it only infrequently, but it knocks me out every time.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: kishnevi on July 04, 2010, 08:04:03 AM
I can unqualified recommend The Gesualdo Hex to everyone here (at GMG -- the broader here);  in particular, though, any of us who take interest in Schoenberg should feel something close to an obligation to read chapter 5, "Conversations at the Brink: A Schoenberg-Leibowitz Correspondence, 1945-1950."
 
It's tempting to type in an excerpt, but the whole chapter is so apt and such a good read . . . just do it ; )

I've missed something here.  Gesualdo Hex is by someone named Watkins?  The name fails to ring a bell with me.  Can you give publication data?  Thx.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 04, 2010, 08:33:16 AM
...any of us who take interest in Schoenberg should feel something close to an obligation to read chapter 5, "Conversations at the Brink: A Schoenberg-Leibowitz Correspondence, 1945-1950."[/font]
 

One of those silly little frissons here - I have a first edition of Leibowitz's Schoenberg et son ecole (1947) and also of his Introduction a la musique de douze sons, signed and dated January 1950. Right at the crux of things. It always gives me a shudder to hold that book in my hand.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
I've missed something here.  Gesualdo Hex is by someone named Watkins?  The name fails to ring a bell with me.  Can you give publication data?  Thx.

The Gesualdo Hex, Glenn Watkins
W.W. Norton, 2010

ISBN 978-0-393-07102-3
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 08:46:00 AM
One of those silly little frissons here - I have a first edition of Leibowitz's Schoenberg et son ecole (1947) and also of his Introduction a la musique de douze sons, signed and dated January 1950. Right at the crux of things. It always gives me a shudder to hold that book in my hand.

Silly is not at all the right adjective, Luke!  It's a like a time-warp (although I admit that my use of the phrase time-warp might be a bit silly . . . .)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 04, 2010, 10:55:50 AM
I can unqualified recommend The Gesualdo Hex to everyone here (at GMG -- the broader here);  in particular, though, any of us who take interest in Schoenberg should feel something close to an obligation to read chapter 5, "Conversations at the Brink: A Schoenberg-Leibowitz Correspondence, 1945-1950."
 
It's tempting to type in an excerpt, but the whole chapter is so apt and such a good read . . . just do it ; )

Late in his life Stravinsky restudied Gesualdo and was inspired to orchestrate (basically, as I recall) 3 Gesualdo madrigals for the Monumentum pro Gesualdo.

The later letters of Schoenberg are melancholy: I believe there is one to Leibowitz which mentions the initial composition of a symphony! 

Another "might have been" moment in History!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 04, 2010, 11:25:35 AM
Late in his life Stravinsky restudied Gesualdo and was inspired to orchestrate (basically, as I recall) 3 Gesualdo madrigals for the Monumentum pro Gesualdo.

Yes (and this book is in five Parts, one each of the five devoted to Schoenberg & Stravinsky). As recently as two-three years ago I was confused on the matter myself . . . but you are right that the Monumentum is a matter of arranging (minimal 'recomposition') three of the madrigals;  additionally . . . Gesualdo had published a set of six- and seven-voice motets.  These had been published as part-books (the contemporary norm), but by our day the part-books of the Sextus and Tenor are missing.  Stravinsky selected three of the motets to (creatively) 'complete': "Illumina nos," Gesualdo's only work for seven voices;  and "Assumpta est Maria" and "Da pacem Domine," "the sole examples of strict canon in Gesualdo's entire ouevre" (Watkins).
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 04, 2010, 12:01:08 PM
Seems like a big day for Schoenberg listening, presumably because Arnie's adoption of his new native country fits well with 4th of July patriotism.   8)

Listened to the Suite Op. 29 today (for 3 clarinets, string trio and piano), performance by Boulez and his Ensemble Intercontemporain.  Now it's available on Sony, I have the original disc issued by CBS Masterworks. 

This is a delightful piece, from early in Schoenberg's pan-tonal period.  It starts with a prelude in some semblance of sonata form, followed by Arnie's version of a waltz, a theme and variations, and a gigue.  Wonderful instrumental textures and quirky rhythms. 

I remember listening to this piece long, long ago and thinking it sounded like something of a joke.   Now, I've had the following thought.  When listening to Mozart, we can follow the standard harmonies unfolding and develop an expectation of what is coming next, the next note, the next phrase, the next harmonic progression.  This allows Mozart to decide, at each juncture, whether to give us what we are expecting, or to give us something different, to surprise us.  So I decided to listen to this piece with that in mind.  I constantly ask myself as I listen to this piece by Schoenberg, "what will happen next?"  "How will this phrase end, what will come next?"  And to a surprising extent, I feel like my expectations are met, perhaps not all the time but more often than random.  So Schoenberg can play the expectation game, although it takes more effort to follow, and the results are not as clear cut.

The other thing that strikes me about this music is that since it is organized in terms of sequences of tones, the emphasis shifts strongly to melody and counterpoint rather than harmony.  Maybe that means that a major aspect of music has been depreciated, but it opens up new possibilities. 

In any case, I want to listen to more Schoenberg!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 04, 2010, 03:32:37 PM
Seems like a big day for Schoenberg listening, presumably because Arnie's adoption of his new native country fits well with 4th of July patriotism.   8)

Listened to the Suite Op. 29 today (for 3 clarinets, string trio and piano), performance by Boulez and his Ensemble Intercontemporain.  Now it's available on Sony, I have the original disc issued by CBS Masterworks. 

This is a delightful piece, from early in Schoenberg's pan-tonal period.  It starts with a prelude in some semblance of sonata form, followed by Arnie's version of a waltz, a theme and variations, and a gigue.  Wonderful instrumental textures and quirky rhythms. 

I remember listening to this piece long, long ago and thinking it sounded like something of a joke.   Now, I've had the following thought.  When listening to Mozart, we can follow the standard harmonies unfolding and develop an expectation of what is coming next, the next note, the next phrase, the next harmonic progression.  This allows Mozart to decide, at each juncture, whether to give us what we are expecting, or to give us something different, to surprise us.  So I decided to listen to this piece with that in mind.  I constantly ask myself as I listen to this piece by Schoenberg, "what will happen next?"  "How will this phrase end, what will come next?"  And to a surprising extent, I feel like my expectations are met, perhaps not all the time but more often than random.  So Schoenberg can play the expectation game, although it takes more effort to follow, and the results are not as clear cut.

The other thing that strikes me about this music is that since it is organized in terms of sequences of tones, the emphasis shifts strongly to melody and counterpoint rather than harmony.  Maybe that means that a major aspect of music has been depreciated, but it opens up new possibilities.

In any case, I want to listen to more Schoenberg!

(My emphasis above)

Another way to understand Schoenberg's musical style, and Erwartung is an excellent example of this, is through his use of "musical space."  Similar to Bruckner and his pauses, Schoenberg tends to organize things so that eventually there is a filling of the "space" after which there is silence or simplification.  In the absence of tonal cadences, this is how Schoenberg (perhaps intuitively) solved the problem of resolution in a system where a normal harmonic resolution was not possible.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 05, 2010, 12:43:07 AM
I too have been on a Schoenberg binge recently, focusing on the String Trio (a recent acquisition), the Op. 31 Variations for Orchestra (an old friend), Pierrot Lunaire (ditto), and some of the piano music.

What comes through is how much of the breakthrough to atonality and later serialism was driven by Schoenberg's personality and expressive need. If he'd been an easygoing guy who liked to write songs about puppydogs, bubbles and champagne, he would never have gone the atonal route. On the now locked Schoenberg v. Mendelssohn thread, somebody ("Josquin" I think) pointed out that Arnie's style was the natural expression of his nightmarish thoughts. This was intended as a criticism, but I thought it was essentially correct.

Try listening to Pierrot Lunaire while following the texts closely. It's a house of horrors. Check out the song about how Pierrot drills a hole into some poor guy's head, stuffs it with tobacco, and then smokes the tobacco out of his victim's skull. It's hard to imagine Schubert or Brahms writing a song about such an event.

The harsh side of reality brought out the best in Arnie. The String Trio was written in response to a heart attack he'd just suffered. It may or may not be a good idea to listen to the Trio as a record of this experience. But surely there are few pieces which pack this much intensity into such a small space.

I have the Scarpia-mentioned Op. 29 on the same disc as the Trio, so I'll mark it down for near-future listening.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2010, 06:39:42 AM
The Los Angeles String Trio:

http://www.youtube.com/v/yDN93Ijomm4

String Trio, Op. 45 (1946) [video 1 of 2]
 
(Mis-labeled on youtube, of course. Opus 41 is the Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte.)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2010, 06:40:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/20vtpZLpZEE

String Trio, Op. 45 (1946) [video 2 of 2]
The Los Angeles String Trio
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2010, 08:06:31 AM
Some years ago, I totally chanced upon the Craft/Schoenberg series on Koch, remaindered at BRO.  (Chanced, because I actually only surf their site irregularly.)  I fetched them in greedily . . . not that I was such an enthusiast for Schoenberg at the time.  In fact, at that point I had been rather cool to Schoenberg for some years.  But I had reached a point where I was curious at least to hear many of the pieces which I still knew only by name;  and the fact remains that I was besotted with (to name but two examples) Pierrot Lunaire when I was first exposed to it as an undergraduate, and with the Serenade Opus 24 when I chanced on a CD with it, while I was in Buffalo.  Mentally, I knew that my then-coolness might well be a whimsical phase (no matter how long a period it had chilled), and I allowed myself to recall viscerally that there was a time when I was unqualifiedly enthusiastic about the music.
 
Now, if I had waited a short-ish time, I probably could have fetched all (or, most of) these recordings as Naxos re-issues.  I haven't done the math — I might or might not have saved a smallish bit of money by waiting.  But (what I could not necessarily have foreseen) I benefited from the Koch reel-in, because (and the same fact applies to the Craft/Stravinsky Koch remainders which similarly I fetched from BRO) Craft's liner notes are extensive, to a degree which tests the physical capacity of the jewel-cases: Vol III of The Music of Arnold Schoenberg (released in 1999)has a booklet which is 36 pages, not including cover.
 
Before discussion of the pieces on Vol III themselves, Craft writes a preface, Remembering Schoenberg.  I reproduce just two paragraphs from this:
 
Quote from: Robt Craft

To this day I wonder why I did not attempt to arrange a meeting between the two titans of modern music, but it can only be that I realized that Stravinsky was not ready for it.  With the exception of Verklärte Nacht, in its ballet form as Pillar of Fire [! ~kh], he began to learn Schoenberg's music only after the older man's death.  How different the situation would have been a year and a half later, when Stravinsky would have gone to him, addressed him as "Meister," reminisced with him about Berlin in 1912, and thanked him for presenting the original instrumental versions of Pribaoutki and Berceuses du Chat, and the 4-hand and string quartet pieces, in his Vienna Society For Private Performances in 1919.
 
In truth, the thought that a meeting could have been effected between the two men, who had lived only a few miles for eleven years but never communicated, still disturbs me.  Schoenberg's biographer, H. H. Stuckenschmidt, describes Stravinsky during a visit to him in April 1949 "warmly" asking about "the great old man," and it was known then that Schoenberg had protested against the abuse of Stravinsky by René Leibowitz and Theodor Adorno.  In the autumn of 1949 Stravinsky was in the Los Angeles audience that heard Schoenberg deliver an ironic acceptance speech to the Austrian Consul-General for bestowing the "Freedom of the City of Vienna" on him.  I was in New York at the time, and when I returned Stravinsky sympathetically described the occasion to me, of Schoenberg, whose eyesight had begun to fail, reading from a clutch of papers, each containing only a few words written in large letters.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 05, 2010, 08:58:24 AM
Supposedly there exists a recording of Arnie himself leading a performance of Pierrot Lunaire. Has anyone heard it and can give an opinion on it?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2010, 09:00:39 AM
Supposedly there exists a recording of Arnie himself leading a performance of Pierrot Lunaire. Has anyone heard it and can give an opinion on it?

At least part of that seems to be on youtube (which cannot be sonically ideal, of course).
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 05, 2010, 09:08:02 AM
Thanks for the tip. I found it - fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Drasko on July 05, 2010, 09:18:08 AM
Supposedly there exists a recording of Arnie himself leading a performance of Pierrot Lunaire. Has anyone heard it and can give an opinion on it?

It does exist, though I haven't heard it. I was outbid on e-bay for the CD few years ago, can't recall the exact price it went for but it was way over my head.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2010, 09:23:29 AM
The Master himself:
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/utm1HH16uwM
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/eZ-8zFtWK8k
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/dQ0i5SQIEcg
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/SD-LekekKOM
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 04:21:58 AM
So in the beginning of the third movement (Tema mit Variationen) of the Suite Opus 29 . . . the bass clarinet (up in the ghostly high-ish register) plays what sounds like a chorale-tune.  Anyone have more granularity here?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 04:27:46 AM
So in the beginning of the third movement (Tema mit Variationen) of the Suite Opus 29 . . . the bass clarinet (up in the ghostly high-ish register) plays what sounds like a chorale-tune.  Anyone have more granularity here?

What does "granularity" mean in this context?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 04:53:49 AM
More information, thanks.  Whether about the tune (does it have a historic source?) or the scheme of the variations.  Or about the whole work.  I'm wide open here.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 04:54:39 AM
Malcolm Macdonald says something about it in his Schoenberg book, can't quite recall what!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 04:55:57 AM
I mean, I'm just digging the Suite overall, and I can take or leave harder info about it.  I do tend to be a little intellectually curious, though.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 04:58:07 AM
Actually, he might not, I'm thinking of the Serenade, not the Suite. But her'es the google book, anyway:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsaFwzCMNa4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=malcolm+macdonald+schoenberg&source=bl&ots=VvSBASeoKZ&sig=N8xUdAbak_n9yXQ8G6J6TQQSDlc&hl=en&ei=qzUzTIH9N5Ki0gSph4WhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=snippet&q=suite%20op%2029&f=false
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 05:01:22 AM
No, he does - page 216/7 of the book I linked to - it's the 'folksong' Annchen von Tharau, actually a song by Friedrich Silcher.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 05:02:07 AM
Actually, he might not, I'm thinking of the Serenade, not the Suite. But her'es the google book, anyway:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsaFwzCMNa4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=malcolm+macdonald+schoenberg&source=bl&ots=VvSBASeoKZ&sig=N8xUdAbak_n9yXQ8G6J6TQQSDlc&hl=en&ei=qzUzTIH9N5Ki0gSph4WhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=snippet&q=suite%20op%2029&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsaFwzCMNa4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=malcolm+macdonald+schoenberg&source=bl&ots=VvSBASeoKZ&sig=N8xUdAbak_n9yXQ8G6J6TQQSDlc&hl=en&ei=qzUzTIH9N5Ki0gSph4WhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=snippet&q=suite%20op%2029&f=false)

Interesting, there's a footnote to p.102 calling them 'folksong variations'. Thanks!
 
(And our posts crossed, thanks again!)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 05:04:41 AM
Interesting, there's a footnote to p.102 calling them 'folksong variations'. Thanks!
 
(And our posts crossed, thanks again!)

yes - I was just writing to say, hope you saw that last one! They aren't folksong variations, even though they often go by that name (he evidently says so himself on page 102, then goes on to correct himself on page 217!)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 05:12:39 AM
BTW, apart from simple enjoyment of the 'saturation listening' recently, the two Kammersymphonien have really gotten right in amongst me now, and they are well up there with my favorite Schoenberg.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 05:59:26 AM
The first one always was amongst mine. I used to listen to it endlessly as a student (and, in passing, is there anything more unabashedly romantic in twentieth century music than the slow movement of that piece....but never, ever, self-indulgent, every note is perfect, perfectly judged and balanced as is the whole symphony, and the way the movement is framed, with that 4th-dominated introductory passage paraphrasing the introduction of the whole symphony in slow motion, is simply wondrous...). Been listening again in the last few days - we have so much to thank Saul for, reanimating the Schoenberg bug amongst so many of us to this extent!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 08:24:38 AM
I've noticed that most of the used or steeply discounted copies of Schoenberg recordings that were in my Amazon shopping cart now indicate sold out.  I think we've created a run on Schoenberg comparable to the run on the Hugh Bean recording of the Elgar VC that Elgarian triggered earlier this spring.   ;D

However, I did secure a copy of this long out-of-print recording. 

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6e/df/71f4eb6709a047392fdd2110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is available as an arkivmusic cdr, but I got a copy of the proper cd in excellent condition.  I'm curious about that quintet.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 08:32:08 AM
The quintet is an element in a now-much-dwindled set of Schoenberg pieces I've never heard.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 08:44:30 AM
It's a real ear-tingler, but it's Schoenberg at his most inpenetrable, there's no denying it. Rewarding, though.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Franco on July 06, 2010, 08:52:15 AM
I like the Wind Quintet quite a lot and have a couple of recordings from LPs, Boston Sym. players and I think members of the Philadelphia Orch.  Both from the '60s I believe. (I'm not at home so I can't be more specific, sorry.)

What I especially respond to with the WQ is the texture, significantly more transparent than in the string ensemble works.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 08:59:30 AM
I was close to ordering this set, complete chamber music for strings.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PMZQDPYEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I  was ultimately turned off because a significant fraction of it consists of works transcribed for strings (like the wind quintet, piano pieces, chamber symphonies, etc).  I wish there was a pared down version which contained works actually written for strings.



Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 09:03:09 AM
I"m thinking about fetching in the Leipzig Quartet recordings of the quartets and Verklärte Nacht.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 09:15:35 AM
I was close to ordering this set, complete chamber music for strings.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PMZQDPYEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I  was ultimately turned off because a significant fraction of it consists of works transcribed for strings (like the wind quintet, piano pieces, chamber symphonies, etc).  I wish there was a pared down version which contained works actually written for strings.

Oh, I may do this, instead!  I think the extras (which seem to have dissuaded you, Scarps) are actually value added:  Webern's arrangement of the first Kammersymphonie for piano quintet, especially.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 09:20:31 AM

Oh, I may do this, instead!  I think the extras (which seem to have dissuaded you, Scarps) are actually value added:  Webern's arrangement of the first Kammersymphonie for piano quintet, especially.

Me too - looking at it and salivating right now, actually!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Franco on July 06, 2010, 09:24:21 AM
I've got it and find the transcriptions particularly interesting - the rest of the set is on a high level as well.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 09:29:31 AM
Wowzers, it looks so tempting. Expensive mind you. I already have the piano trio version of Verklarte Nacht (arr. Steuermann, right?), and of course all the other standard pieces, but the other arrangments look too good to miss. One of the smaller things I love about Schoenberg and his circle was how they opened up and made acceptable the art of the arrangment simply by the quality with which they did it. This is a sore temptation, I tells ya...
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on July 06, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
If that's the Chandos set with the Schoenberg Quartet, I think it had rather distinctly lukewarm reviews. That's what stopped me buying it, anyway.

I should give the Wind Quintet another spin some time. I generally wax quite a bit cooler on Schoenberg's middle-period "serial technique contained within classical structures" pieces as I feel they constrain the composer's boundless invention too much, but given that Schulte/Craft and Hahn/Salonen have finally convinced me of the worth of the Violin Concerto, maybe this is a good time to revisit the recording I have, a Japanese Denon issue with utterly minor performers: Nicolet, Holliger, Brunner, Thunemann and Vlatkovic. ;)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 10:16:52 AM
Do you think I can bill Saul for the dozen Schoenberg discs I have bought this evening? Wouldn't have happened without him!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
Do you think I can bill Saul for the dozen Schoenberg discs I have bought this evening? Wouldn't have happened without him!

Couldn't sneak one Mendelssohn disc in there?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 10:25:26 AM
I nearly listened to some Mendelssohn the other day. Got the disc off the shelf and everything. Isn't that enough?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
I nearly listened to some Mendelssohn the other day. Got the disc off the shelf and everything. Isn't that enough?

I listened to Midsummer Night's Dream Overture and Fingal's Cave.  Both wonderful.  Then the "Italian" symphony, rather dull.  In the notes to the recording it noted that Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony depicts Italy as viewed from the window of a grand hotel.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:38:09 AM
I nearly listened to some Mendelssohn the other day.

Several steps ahead of me (nor am I eager to catch up, in this).

; )
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2010, 10:44:23 AM
Several steps ahead of me (nor am I eager to catch up, in this).

Aw, c'mon now.  Our Felix deserves more credit than that.  Think of the awkward clomp, clomp, clomp of the bride and groom absconding from the church, if it hadn't been for Mendelssohns Midsummer Night's Dream incidental music.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:47:13 AM
Aw, c'mon now.  Our Felix deserves more credit than that.  Think of the awkward clomp, clomp, clomp of the bride and groom absconding from the church, if it hadn't been for Mendelssohns Midsummer Night's Dream incidental music.

A most amusing parody of that, in The Addams Family . . . an episode which apparently was originally conceived as a pilot for the show, in which Gomez was originally expected to marry Morticia's sister, Ophelia.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 10:54:09 AM
I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on July 06, 2010, 10:56:31 AM
I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.
I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Franco on July 06, 2010, 10:56:46 AM
That's funny, you prefer the string version for the reasons I prefer the wind version.

 :)

Either way, I find this piece one that I keep returning to.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:57:37 AM
I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

Mm.  Note is taken, having just yielded to an impulse (the complete Brahms at Abeille Musique), I must now exercise some restraint . . . .
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:58:59 AM
(It's high time this was a relatively hot thread on GMG! Carry on, gents . . . .)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 10:59:58 AM
I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?

Theonly information I have is that which comes with the track names on the mp3, but that says string quintet. I must admit I wasn't listening with an ear to determine whether it is two-viola or two-cello - the thing is too fast moving, and I guess there could be some part swappage at times too - but it must be the latter, as both horn and bassoon parts go below the viola register, occasionally at the same time (I'm looking at the score of the wind version as I listen).
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Guido on July 06, 2010, 12:45:08 PM
Wowzers, it looks so tempting. Expensive mind you. I already have the piano trio version of Verklarte Nacht (arr. Steuermann, right?), and of course all the other standard pieces, but the other arrangments look too good to miss. One of the smaller things I love about Schoenberg and his circle was how they opened up and made acceptable the art of the arrangment simply by the quality with which they did it. This is a sore temptation, I tells ya...

worth it?
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Saul on July 06, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
Do you think I can bill Saul for the dozen Schoenberg discs I have bought this evening? Wouldn't have happened without him!

Too bad you didnt donate this money to the needy, Would have been more worthwhile.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: snyprrr on July 06, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
I'm in such a mood that hating on Schoenberg sounds like a capital idea! ::)

I imagine him having Obama's lecturing tone, of which I have currently had enough, oh thou that knowest better.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 06, 2010, 05:05:17 PM
I've noticed that most of the used or steeply discounted copies of Schoenberg recordings that were in my Amazon shopping cart now indicate sold out.  I think we've created a run on Schoenberg comparable to the run on the Hugh Bean recording of the Elgar VC that Elgarian triggered earlier this spring.   ;D

However, I did secure a copy of this long out-of-print recording. 

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6e/df/71f4eb6709a047392fdd2110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is available as an arkivmusic cdr, but I got a copy of the proper cd in excellent condition.  I'm curious about that quintet.

At first glance...and after a long day...I wondered why a shotgun was on the cover!   $:)

But a shotgun would not be necessarily a bad idea for such a cover!

Anyway...

Two stories - one of which is well-known by Schoenbergians - might be of interest here.

In Alma Mahler's memoirs she makes the comment that what often caused arguments between Mahler and Schoenberg in the early days of their relationship was that Schoenberg delighted "in the strongest contradictions."

Thus we hear even in his early days inklings of the conservative revolutionary.

Second story: in Georg Solti's notes to his recording of Moses und Aron he mentions that the score scared him to death, but that he felt, that before he joined the great orchestra beyond the sky, he had to conduct it.

After a troubling beginning with the Chicago Symphony, he writes that he advised them: "Play the score as if you are playing Brahms."

And then things went much better!   0:)

What I always find fascinating here is that the advice was not "Play it as if you are playing Mahler."

With all the connections between the two composers, it is the third one, Brahms, who seems to be more important as a forebear than Mahler.

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2010, 09:18:58 PM
worth it?

I think so, very much. Listening to Webern's piano quintet arrangement of the first chamber symphony now...so familiar, and yet so different! Strands of counterpoint float close to the top of the texture which had previously been comparatively hidden, it's all very revealing, and it sounds great. Would make an ideal coupling for the Webern Piano Quintet, actually.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 12:59:15 AM
That's funny, you prefer the string version for the reasons I prefer the wind version.

 :)

Either way, I find this piece one that I keep returning to.

Indeed - I think I like it both ways......so to speak!

Was thinking about this a little more in the car last night - the question of why I think the piece works better, in practice, as a strings-only piece, even though, on paper, it looks just dandy scored for winds as the composer intended.

I suppose it's for the reason I said - that the wealth of different colours tends (at least for me) to draw the ear away from what the instruments are actually sharing, namely the material itself - IOW though the motivic relationship between the parts seems to be the composer's primary concern, the scoring tends to obscure the appreciation of this.

To take this thought one step further, I think this is why the most successful wind quintets/sextets etc, to my mind, are those of a somewhat less academic type, often those which are more rustic or divertimento-like in feel - Nielsen's, for instance, or Janacek's Mladi sextet. In these somewhat less highbrow pieces the composers feel no need for the musical material to be accesible to all instruments. What suits the bassoon need not suit the flute, and so on. There is a separation of timbres, each instrument or group of instruments has types of material which it tends to work with - they may interact and develop, but fundamentally the characters of the instrument are kept separate and are preserved.

In 12-tone Schoenberg of this 'classicising' period, primacy is given to the row, to the motive, to counterpoint, imitation, fleetness of thinking as the lines pass through the ensemble. Instrumental character, whilst preserved to some extent, is made subservient to the play of the notes themselves - the bassoon is asked to do what the flute just did, and so on. That is why, I suppose, the string quartets are more successful, to my mind, than the wind quintet - the motives move through the ensemble in the same fleet-footed way, but the listener gets a greater sense of the overall line, as the timbres are essentially the same throughout the ensmble. Where Schoenberg's mixed scoring succeeds best in these 'classical' 12 tone pieces, to my mind, is in the divertimento-like forms closest to that rustic genre of the Janacek and the Nielsen - which means, essentially, the Suite and the Serenade.

OK, not much of a thought, actually....  :D
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 04:07:45 AM
Karl, for the Schoenberg  Kol Nidre check out these CD's:

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=27992 (http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=27992)

The second of the Sony reissue boxes includes this! Huzzah!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2010, 09:51:06 AM
Indeed - I think I like it both ways......so to speak!

Was thinking about this a little more in the car last night - the question of why I think the piece works better, in practice, as a strings-only piece, even though, on paper, it looks just dandy scored for winds as the composer intended.

I suppose it's for the reason I said - that the wealth of different colours tends (at least for me) to draw the ear away from what the instruments are actually sharing, namely the material itself - IOW though the motivic relationship between the parts seems to be the composer's primary concern, the scoring tends to obscure the appreciation of this.

To take this thought one step further, I think this is why the most successful wind quintets/sextets etc, to my mind, are those of a somewhat less academic type, often those which are more rustic or divertimento-like in feel - Nielsen's, for instance, or Janacek's Mladi sextet. In these somewhat less highbrow pieces the composers feel no need for the musical material to be accesible to all instruments. What suits the bassoon need not suit the flute, and so on. There is a separation of timbres, each instrument or group of instruments has types of material which it tends to work with - they may interact and develop, but fundamentally the characters of the instrument are kept separate and are preserved.

In 12-tone Schoenberg of this 'classicising' period, primacy is given to the row, to the motive, to counterpoint, imitation, fleetness of thinking as the lines pass through the ensemble. Instrumental character, whilst preserved to some extent, is made subservient to the play of the notes themselves - the bassoon is asked to do what the flute just did, and so on. That is why, I suppose, the string quartets are more successful, to my mind, than the wind quintet - the motives move through the ensemble in the same fleet-footed way, but the listener gets a greater sense of the overall line, as the timbres are essentially the same throughout the ensemble. Where Schoenberg's mixed scoring succeeds best in these 'classical' 12 tone pieces, to my mind, is in the divertimento-like forms closest to that rustic genre of the Janacek and the Nielsen - which means, essentially, the Suite and the Serenade.

OK, not much of a thought, actually....  :D

Nein, die Idee ist echt lockernd!   :o

What we have here is, at heart, different styles of listening and conducting.

Certainly, as you point out, the composers or the analytical minds might be listening more contrapuntally and find the instruments' voices something of a hindrance.

On the other hand the assignment of a line to a flute rather than a bassoon, or then to a bassoon, is no doubt something Schoenberg considered or at least intuitively accepted as the way to go. 

It would be the conductor's task to let both come through: I once heard live performances with the Berlin Philharmonic and Abbado and the Cincinnati Symphony under Lopez-Cobos of Pelleas und Melisande.

Both performances brought out a chamber-music clarity in the lines, even in the several climaxes which, under other conductors (Barbirolli comes to mind), can become an absolutely smeary mess, i.e. despite all the timbres of a large orchestra, the conductor and the players brought out the lines like a string quartet.

To be sure, there would be no absolute equality, but the right orchestra and conductor can achieve something close to string-quartet lucidity.

And then there is Richard Strauss!   :o

I recall a story where he complained greatly (using a nasty word) about a conductor (sorry, the name and the work are no longer in the synapses) who in fact brought out all the lines of one of Strauss' large works. 

Strauss found the approach completely wrong-headed: a wash of colors - "a smeary mess" - in the background is precisely what he wanted.   

Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 08, 2010, 05:38:01 AM
It is....the music and the peformance. Maag has a way with Mendelssohn.
Sarge

Who knew that Erwartung would move him so? ; )
 
I understand that Teresa once bought an LP of Erwartung with this cover:
 
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2162531347_455b0025b7.jpg)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: abidoful on July 08, 2010, 10:55:08 AM

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2162531347_455b0025b7.jpg)
m-m-m-m-m-m- Marilyn  :-*
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: edward on July 13, 2010, 06:10:16 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the opus 14 and opus 48 songs? I don't think I've ever heard either of these sets.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 15, 2010, 09:01:24 AM
At a complete loss here, Edward.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: mjwal on July 15, 2010, 09:15:43 AM
I keep coming back to the "atonal" masterpieces, today it was Op.16 - has there been a discussion of that here (I get lost in all those meandering discussions)? This work certainly has symphonic qualities, and it hits the nail right on the head when it comes to the cusp between fin de siècle musings & emotings and scientifically planned investigations into the interior world of timbre and rhythm. I have various recordings, ranging from Scherchen to Levine, but the discovery for me was on a German cheapo collection of early Kubelik recordings with in this case the CSO in 1953: it hits you right between the eyes or any other duo you care to think of.
As to the Pierrot Lunaire recording with Steuermann et al: Schoenberg was present at the recording at least part of the time, but he did not direct it.
As far as Opp. 14 and 48 go, I suppose Vanni/Gould on Sony is the most obvious resource for a large number of songs including these. I have never warmed much to the vocal settings with piano - now Op.22 is something else!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 22, 2010, 06:17:02 AM
From notes reprinted in the Naxos liner notes:

Quote from: Robt Craft
Realising that a work of 38 minutes in atonal idiom for five winds might be less audience-friendly than any of his music heretofore, Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity that surpassed anything even he had ever attempted.  Only now, a half-century after the première, has the piece become playable at the tempos Schoenberg requires.  The wind-instrument players of his time had to be conducted (Webern rehearsed and conducted it in the early years) and managed to get through it in about an hour.  Composed between 21st April and 26th July, the first performance, by members of the Vienna Philharmonic, took place in that city, conducted by Schoenberg's son-in-law, Felix Greissle, on 13th September, 1924, Schoenberg's fiftieth birthday.  It lasted one hour.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 22, 2010, 06:22:17 AM
Very informative, but I am surprised at such sloppy writing from someone as historically attached to literature-friendly composers as Craft! Beguile cannot be the right word there.  And the introductory subordinate clause Composed between 21st April and 26th July modifies the composition itself, not the subject of the main clause, the first performance.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: mjwal on July 23, 2010, 06:19:14 AM
Karl, I agree with you about the floating participial (not a clause) phrase, but his use of "beguile" is in fact very literary indeed: while Collins Dic. gives the usual senses, the Shorter Oxford mentions, as sense 5, "to divert attention in some pleasant way from" and cites "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" - thus the masterpiece in its atonal complexity is "beguiled", i.e. one's attention is diverted from it by the display of instrumental virtuosity.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 23, 2010, 06:30:20 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Scarpia on July 23, 2010, 07:02:10 AM
Karl, I agree with you about the floating participial (not a clause) phrase, but his use of "beguile" is in fact very literary indeed: while Collins Dic. gives the usual senses, the Shorter Oxford mentions, as sense 5, "to divert attention in some pleasant way from" and cites "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" - thus the masterpiece in its atonal complexity is "beguiled", i.e. one's attention is diverted from it by the display of instrumental virtuosity.

It's still wrong.  In the example "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" it is the cares that are beguiled, not the sport.  in Craft's quote " Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity" beguile is applied to the "masterpiece."  Schoenberg can beguile his listeners, or beguile our cares, but he can't beguile the piece of music he is writing, unless this is a really far fetched metaphor in which he imagines that the piece of music itself is upset and needs to be beguiled.  If that's the case, I guess it's not wrong, just really bad writing, IMO.

 
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 23, 2010, 07:05:41 AM
[ I appreciate my miscalling the participial phrase a clause being pointed out. Only fair. ]
 
I should go straight back and listen to the Wind Quintet again . . . be a good palate-clearer in the midst of all the wonderful Martinů.
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: mjwal on July 24, 2010, 12:30:40 AM
It's still wrong.  In the example "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" it is the cares that are beguiled, not the sport.  in Craft's quote " Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity" beguile is applied to the "masterpiece."  Schoenberg can beguile his listeners, or beguile our cares, but he can't beguile the piece of music he is writing, unless this is a really far fetched metaphor in which he imagines that the piece of music itself is upset and needs to be beguiled.  If that's the case, I guess it's not wrong, just really bad writing, IMO.
Scarpia,  it's hardly worth arguing about, but my post made clear that it is the masterpiece being beguiled in the sense of "attention being diverted from" - i.e. the listener's  attention is diverted from the masterpiece (in its quasi-minatory serial gestalt) to its instrumentally beguiling blandishments, just as such sports pleasantly draw people's attention from their cares. I know it is counter-intuitive, but such as Craft are literary to a fare-thee-well and Oxford Dictionary junkies...
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: karlhenning on July 28, 2010, 10:18:23 AM
Has anyone in addition to papy heard Steuermann's arrangement of the Opus 4 for piano trio?  (Or is it piano quartet?)
Title: Re: Let Schoenberg Schine
Post by: Luke on July 28, 2010, 12:29:31 PM
Yes, I have it....and I rather like it; the piano adds a certian layer of objectivity to the sound which I quite like, if I can put it like that. And of course Steuermann's version is to be understood as coming from a specific context - the Second Viennese School in the early 20th century - in which good-quality arrangements played a central role (so many of these pieces exist in more than one version). It doesn't supplant the original version(s), of course, but it makes for an interesting and refreshing change.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on July 28, 2010, 12:53:45 PM
Molto bene, grazie!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: edward on July 31, 2010, 05:27:28 PM
This might be an interesting addition to the Schoenberg discography:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.557533.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557533
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on July 31, 2010, 05:29:58 PM
With Fred Sherry, it's got to be good.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: edward on July 31, 2010, 05:34:38 PM
With Fred Sherry, it's got to be good.
Rolf Schulte in the Phantasy is a nice bonus, too. I've been impressed with his recordings of both Schoenberg and Carter's violin concerti.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: CaramelJones on July 31, 2010, 05:37:50 PM
This might be an interesting addition to the Schoenberg discography:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.557533.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557533


It's a beautiful disc.  Probably better than the old Juilliard stuff imho.

Anyone afraid Schoenberg might put them to sleep need not fear.

Their earlier volume to this precedes the Verklarte Nacht (No.4 SQ) and is very plaintive and beautiful in its own way - way more accessible (No.2 SQ).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2010, 04:18:36 AM
I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

£70 is certainly awfully rich;  I was incredibly lucky to find a decent copy for $45 (ca. £28) . . . and I agree, very likeable!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2010, 04:20:47 AM

Quote from: Edward
I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?

Theonly information I have is that which comes with the track names on the mp3, but that says string quintet. I must admit I wasn't listening with an ear to determine whether it is two-viola or two-cello - the thing is too fast moving, and I guess there could be some part swappage at times too - but it must be the latter, as both horn and bassoon parts go below the viola register, occasionally at the same time (I'm looking at the score of the wind version as I listen).

I've got the liner booklet, which is substantial . . . and yet (I've looked into it only cursorily as yet) it was not immediately apparent whether it's a viola quintet or cello quintet.  I am apt to suspect viola, but I'll try to get a firmer idea tomorrow . . . .
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on August 20, 2010, 05:51:20 PM
In an effort to confront the Death in Venice-type culture rot of the time, I am starting afresh with the Second Viennese School, and their early works.

I'm in the closet,...looking,...haha,...oh yes, just look for the pile of DG, haha! All Karajan, all the time, haha!

Funny thing, how Schoenberg/Berg/Webern, COMBINED, have a very very small output by comparison to, most?, composers. What do you think?

I'm listening to Verklarte Nacht/ Karajan right now. Yes, "overheated" is the word that comes to mind. It's ALMOST the feeling I've been seeking, that overheated greenhouse in it's almost grotesque splendour,... where the one plant inexplicably takes on the form of a woman, driving the fevered husband/scientist mad....

oh, this is good!, haha,...my new Opera!,...you want it?

However, I'm still looking for more putrefied remains that what I'm finding in Nacht (there's still too much life left in the body). S/B/W, it seems to me, are still struggling to KILL the beast (Western Civ 101),....whereas, perhaps, the French (Debussy, Caplet, Ravel,...y'know, those "devilworshippers", Priory of Sion, blahblah), the French perhaps are having sex with the body!... or, is that Szymanowski?, haha

Is all that I'm looking for simply contained in Pierrot? Is that the most,... the best example of total musical "degeneracy", where the vocals and the music, both together, combine in atonal hallucinations of death and the macabre (THAT's the word I've been looking for!)?



Nacht (almost over) seems tortured, yet, ultimately sounds like the uber-TonePoem, with the big release. Last night I was listening to Pelleas, which is a lot more sumptuous....

oy, getting braindrain ???,...sleepy,...must,...log,...off,....ZZZzzzzz....Spock!.....
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2010, 04:45:55 AM
Funny thing, how Schoenberg/Berg/Webern, COMBINED, have a very very small output by comparison to, most?, composers. What do you think?

I think that this is a flawed comparison.  That is, that there it is problematic in the first place to compare music & musicians from different eras.  THe combined output is very small compared to Telemann; so what?  Tallis's output is small compared to Telemann's . . . and from this senator's standpoint, Tallis was ten times the artist that Telemann was.

The volume of Schoenberg's oeuvre (if we're measuring volume by duration of playing time, itself a debatable method) is probably somewhat greater than either Debussy's or Ravel's (not that this maps onto any value judgement), and probably at about half of Stravinsky's (not that this maps onto any value judgement, either).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2010, 03:27:22 PM
Is all that I'm looking for simply contained in Pierrot? Is that the most,... the best example of total musical "degeneracy", where the vocals and the music, both together, combine in atonal hallucinations of death and the macabre (THAT's the word I've been looking for!)?

For the kind of cultural degeneracy you're talking about (I think ;D )...that macabre degeneracy, music literally dancing on a corpse, my vote goes to Strauss's Salome. But I assume you've already considered, and rejected, that. Gurrelieder would work to if it were not for that optimistic sunrise finale. Have you heard Mahler's Das Klagende Lied?

Sarge
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2010, 07:25:56 AM
I think that this is a flawed comparison.  That is, that there it is problematic in the first place to compare music & musicians from different eras.  THe combined output is very small compared to Telemann; so what?  Tallis's output is small compared to Telemann's . . . and from this senator's standpoint, Tallis was ten times the artist that Telemann was.

The volume of Schoenberg's oeuvre (if we're measuring volume by duration of playing time, itself a debatable method) is probably somewhat greater than either Debussy's or Ravel's (not that this maps onto any value judgement), and probably at about half of Stravinsky's (not that this maps onto any value judgement, either).


I was just noting the relatively concentrated feeling of these three. Even though there aren't that many pieces, per se, those pieces are all chock full to the brim with information, more so than with others , perhaps (Martinu instead of Telemann, perhaps?). No, I wasn't making a value judgment,...just noting, for instance, that, all three of them combined come up with only one 80min cd for piano music,...that both Webern and Berg can be collected into neat little boxes (W more so).

Hey, I was just saying that their output was,...mmm,...."cute"! haha


Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: Cadaver Gases!
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2010, 07:39:49 AM
For the kind of cultural degeneracy you're talking about (I think ;D )...that macabre degeneracy, music literally dancing on a corpse, my vote goes to Strauss's Salome. But I assume you've already considered, and rejected, that. Gurrelieder would work to if it were not for that optimistic sunrise finale. Have you heard Mahler's Das Klagende Lied?

Sarge

So far, as I've been going through the SecVenSch, the Webern Op.1 Passacaglia seems to come closest to what I was thinking, though, still, there is too much life/anger/resistance left. There ARE some astonishing sections of this piece that really sound uber-Modern to me. If this Op.1 had been written as a TonePoem on the Fall of Usher, then I think....

I'm starting to think that Poe/Baubelaire is the key. And, I'm wondering who is more "morbid" in their culture: the Germans or the French.



I don't know why I'm having such a hard time accepting Mahler/Strauss as the epitome of what I'm thinking about.

Maybe something will clarify: is anyone familiar with Japanese Horror Art, the kind where soldiers are licking the gaping wound of a cadaver, or wot not? The Japanese seem to have a very creepy underbelly. I also hear that the Romanians have a very macabre sense of humor (Ligeti).

Also, the idea of the American Gothic seems to embody most of what I'm thinking about. Ives might be the composer I would lift up here, except that I think his Christian faith keeps him  from being morbid.

Some of Cowell's early, ultra dissonant pieces (Quartet Romantic) have that Southern Gothic sound, very close to what I'm think: lots of chromatic up and down, like the cadaver gases. Also, Denisov specializes in this sound of "ennui".

Perhaps the composer I'm looking for was either a Morphine addict, or liked the Absinthe?

Syphilis to the rescue! :P
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on August 23, 2010, 05:52:22 AM
So far, SQ No.2 is coming closest to what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on August 31, 2010, 06:56:47 AM
You should see the look on my face ( :-X) after ordering my second installment (Lunaire) of the Atherton chamber cycle. I am telling myself that this does it for Schoenberg (I've been wrong before). I should now have plenty of ammo to beat him over the head with! :-\ ::) ;D

Jus kidding,... but seriously.

Currently, my Schoenberg runs as such:

DG/Karajan (2)
DG violin/piano concertos
DG/Abbado (Warsaw)
DG/Abbado (Chamber No.1)
DG (Napoleon)
DG/Pollini piano
DG/Boulez PLunaire

DG/Kremerata (String Trio, Phantasy)

SQs 1-4/Arditti SQ
SQs 2-4/Liepziger SQ
SQ No.1/Berner SQ (Koch)

Decca/Atherton (Wind Quintet, Suite)
Decca/Atherton (PL, Serenade, Brigade)

Decca/ "Schoenberg in Hollywood" (Chamber No.2, Suite, band piece)



The crossed out ones I don't have, but, that would be it for the non-vocal, no?

I just heard the Kolisch and Arditti and LaSalle in SQ No.4 (to compare to Liepzigers), and the Ardittis come out waaay ahead, distinguishing themselves nicely in the harmonics section of the first mvmt. It's hard to get a cheap copy of that one!

I also heard the fragments of SQ No.5 (1949)! Tantalizingly typical of what would be coming out of the American Universities in the next 20yeasts. Amazing how some scribbled notes translate into such strange sounds. Poor, misunderstood Arnie. :'( :-*






Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on September 02, 2010, 06:50:57 PM
So I got the Atherton Pierrot, with Mary Thomas, who is quite "ugly" (I thought), bringing out a visceral madness to the proceedings, reminding me slightly of that Eastern European dinginess that leads to the film Hostel (yuk, right?). This band could be playing in thaaat town, haha.

Right now I'll just say that I'm just not that hip on this ghoulish cabaret (I probably would need DeGaetani to sweeten it up for me). I think it just proves to me that Schoenberg's music can only lead to mad states of mind, haha.

The Serenade Op.24, however, may be my fav Arnie piece now. The sensation of being at a polite garden party of ghouls saturates this score. It's just hilarious to me to hear this skeletal sounding, drooling and burbling band playing Mozart through some Frankensteinian process of bringing the dead back. Music for ghouls to dance by, haha.

I can so hear Arnie slaving over his baby, making sure everything is just so. But it just cracks me up how he seems to start everything off with that "grumpy walking tempo", like he's always stuck in a macabre allegretto. But, like I said, the way he puts tones together, it's just gonna end up sounding creepy anyway.

That's why I think this Serenade is the perfect Arnie, because it so perfectly represents the emotions of his system, when applied to such a perfectly sarcastic instrumentation. But I don't know how how this type of music could ever represent anything "normal". It does seem to be relegates to the psychological underworld of dreams and phantoms, and horrors and war, and fevers and worry (oh, and not to mention bitterness! ::)).

I can enjoy Arnie's music for what it is and how it feels, but I'm starting to have no time for Arnie the man (and his ideas). I've been listening to quite a concentrate of Arnie in the last few days, and, it's just to sunny, summery, and nice out! The Serenade and Wind Quintet are the only things of his I can listen to in the daytime, haha!

I just find his emotional palette limited (especially in light of his claims and such). Is that fair?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 03, 2010, 03:25:24 AM
. . . I just find his emotional palette limited (especially in light of his claims and such). Is that fair?

Your parenthesis is enigmatical.  But, no, I don't find his music emotionally "limited," any more than (say) Bach's.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 03, 2010, 06:10:38 AM
And as I revisit the quartets, I am yet more puzzled at your finding the emotional range "limited."

But then, I should never have characterized the Serenade, Opus 24 as "music for ghouls to dance by"; I don't hear it that way at all, at all.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: mjwal on September 05, 2010, 01:00:24 PM
Schoenberg is one of my very favourite composers, particularly (off the top of my head) Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, Op.9 and Die glückliche Hand, but I have not responded quite so strongly to the String Quartets - until I heard the 4th played by the Wihan Qt (Arcodiva + Pfitzner #2), a beautifully translucent, magical recording. The greatest of his string quartets, however, as I think Hans Keller used to say, is his String Trio, for me the greatest musical work of the mid-century. The Juilliards are very good at this, and so are Kremer, V.& C.Hagen (DG) in better sound, which is important in Sch., if we are to get over that "austere/crabbed" image. The latter CD is an invaluable compilation, by the way, including Mahler's piano quartet movement, and shorter pieces by Berg and Webern.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on September 05, 2010, 07:01:41 PM
And as I revisit the quartets, I am yet more puzzled at your finding the emotional range "limited."

But then, I should never have characterized the Serenade, Opus 24 as "music for ghouls to dance by"; I don't hear it that way at all, at all.


But, didn't AS say himself that all Modern Music should be played at night? I mean, has he not limited himself through his system? Especially after the conversion, I find all his music ill at ease. I mean, come on, you're gonna tell me that the serial music of Arnold Schoenberg doesn't,... mostly,... express hightened states of agitation and unease and general Munch-ness, made even the more creepy by couching the extreme psychological conditions (12 tones !,...no center!) in (especially in SQs 3-4) the "form" of Mozart.

You know how SQs 3-4 are pretty well documented to be "learnt" from Mozart (like Toch), since AS was trying to show everyone how his stuff wasn't so alien after all. Tell me you know what I'm talking about here, or I'll have to find the liner notes, haha!

So, basically, generally what I "accuse" AS of is putting New Wine into Old Kegs/Forms. Obviously, by the String Trio, he had corrected the form to more suit the New Path. No?

I mean, I like SQ No.4 just fine, right?, but as a Mozart SQ it's an abomination. He has beaten a Mozat/Classical melodic line into a twelve step (unheard of!) melody, and yet, basically, he keeps a lot of the other compositional considerations firmly rooted in the 18th century. New Wine into Old Skins. It's not meant to work (you shouldn't fool with Mother Nature!!), and, IMHO!, haha, the only way it does work is a Mozatean drama taken to its Grand Guignal "slouching towards the graveyard" inevitable conclusion.

Please, let's take SQ No.4. Where's the maestoso Heroicism? Sustained tenderness and grace? Joy?

Does not AS rather seem to prefer anger, bitterness, strident declaring, and sometimes even hectoring preachiness? As isn't the guy who wrote The Sound of Music, after all!

I think I need to repeat that we're talking about the (arguably) Baddest Bad Boy that there ever was, right? This is the Arnold Schoenberg that makes my mom's face turn sour,... my mom the sweet little old lady who likes "nice" music (I'm sure you know her, haha!), who KNOWS,.... she, and people like her KNOW that Schoenberg writes music expressing the more stressful states of man's consciousness, rather than the sweet strains of a Strauss waltz (now THAT's music, she might say).

Even if you find me an example of "happy" AS (and please,  I will need one), I will surely find something "wrong" with it, haha! 8) ;D I'll admit that SQ No.2 starts off,...maaaybe in a Dvorakian vein, but, I mean, come on. And, don't count the early SQ in D,... just not fair.

I mean, 12 tone music as taught by AS, waaaas futuristic, in that there was no way he could have known that his music was MADE, was MEANT, to depict giant taratulas in '50s sci-fi movies, was MADE to depict the most shocking scenes in the most shocking movies, and, and,...

And, even I, when I was young, remember saying of AS's music, that it sounded like "horror movie music".



So, my point was, was that AS limited himself, and, I thought we all knew that he limited himself by the utilization of his system,... that that was the point of Arnold Schoenberg, The Man Who Killed Music.

You certainly wouldn't mistake him for Mozart!

And yes, I'm sorry, but it HAS to be that obvious for the point to be made (since, he himself uses Mozart to point to).



btw- listen to the last couple of minutes of the finale to the SQ No.4. Now thaaat's a cool ending, huh?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2010, 02:02:43 AM
But, didn't AS say himself that all Modern Music should be played at night? I mean, has he not limited himself through his system? Especially after the conversion, I find all his music ill at ease. I mean, come on, you're gonna tell me that the serial music of Arnold Schoenberg doesn't,... mostly,... express hightened states of agitation and unease and general Munch-ness, made even the more creepy by couching the extreme psychological conditions (12 tones !,...no center!) in (especially in SQs 3-4) the "form" of Mozart.

"Ill at ease," no (not as a general characteristic of his work). An energy, a kind of restlessness, sure.  Not intrinsically "disturbing," no.

Is that a "limitation" Schoenberg "imposed" upon himself by his 'system'?  I hardly think so.  If anything, Webern "applied" the 'system' even more severely, and Webern's is a music of arresting repose.  So I do not find this at all any question of an "emotional limitation" supposedly inheren to the 'system';  I think it's a matter of the composer's voice — again, though, I don't think there is anything necessarily "creepy" about it.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on September 06, 2010, 07:28:24 AM
Your parenthesis is enigmatical.  But, no, I don't find his music emotionally "limited," any more than (say) Bach's.


If anything, Webern "applied" the 'system' even more severely, and Webern's is a music of arresting repose.

Bach,...yes, I know what you're saying,... Bach is just so above it all that there is that cool "repose", and inevitability,... as if God Himself is dictating perfection. Perhaps the emotions expressed in Bach are not really "human" emotions, but the emotions of angels?

I know, I'm just being difficult.

And yes, I see that same repose in Webern. Perhaps the point is is that Bach and Webern pushed their systems to the utmost frontier, cutting off all the "human", "dirty" things out of their music, whereas people like Mahler seem to keep the imperfections as indicative of including the "whole" world. Does Schoenberg "keep" the imperfections, or does he discard them?

I just do not really hear that "helige" repose in Schoenberg (except,...try that ending of SQ No.4). I suppose that ultimately I am trying to link Schoenberg's general crotchety attitude (Atheism?) to his generally,... I'll use your word, "restless", music.

And, I'm also trying to get the argument away from people like you and me (people who will actually look into things (music) that they might at first find unpleasant), and just bringing Aunt Martha into the mix. The common man.

I mean, you do agree that the Aunt Marthas of the world have given Arnie the moniker of The man Who killed Music, right? To the general, untutored ear, Arnie's music might sound like Mozart on LSD (being that he still uses a lot of 18th century tools: four mvmts in  the corresponding tempos (sonata, song, scherzo, finale), Mozartean procedures), no?

Do you not have an Aunt Martha?

I mean, what does Arnie communicate to the common man? What would most any "normal" (Mom!) listener come away with after hearing,...mmm, the Violin Concerto (just pick some particularly thorny AS) or Op.11 piano pieces?

We all know that Arnie IS the man who doesn't care what "you" think, isn't he? I know that Babbitt is the guy who said it, but, he got it from Arnie, didn't he?



I would like to know what music you would describe as macabre, or, "creepy, or,...music that makes you feel dirty (Christina Aguilera notwithstanding!)? For me, it's John Zorn,... but, half of that is the fact that I know some of the creepy stuff he's into.

I just think most, again, "normal" listeners might characterize Mozart's g minor symphony as "restless", but would have a much more visceral reaction to AS, as in they might actually be mad at you for making them listen to him.

Come on, try the Arnie test with your Mother-in-Law, or, a Teenager, or, better yet, a young child ("out of the mouths of babes").

Yes, that's it. Play Arnie for an "innocent" young child, and I will stand by their judgment! There's the perfect music critic!

So there! :P



I dedicate this Post to the Aunt Marthas of the world! :-*
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2010, 07:30:09 AM
I know, I'm just being difficult.

Not a bit of it; I'm enjoying the discussion. I do not fail to enjoy a discussion, just because the other chap & I do not agree!

More later . . . I've got to get back to Tempus fungus.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on September 06, 2010, 07:59:34 PM
Smashing! I'll get more ammo! :P :-* ;D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 06, 2010, 09:57:27 PM
Perhaps the emotions expressed in Bach are not really "human" emotions, but the emotions of angels?

I like this line so much that I have selected it as my tagline  ;)

Quote
And yes, I see that same repose in Webern. Perhaps the point is is that Bach and Webern pushed their systems to the utmost frontier, cutting off all the "human", "dirty" things out of their music, whereas people like Mahler seem to keep the imperfections as indicative of including the "whole" world. Does Schoenberg "keep" the imperfections, or does he discard them?

Sch. (heavily influenced by Mahler as he was) keeps the imperfections - there are any number of "human" and "dirty" elements in his work. How can you compose to a text like Pierrot Lunaire or Erwartung without numerous dirty and creepy elements? It's nightmarish stuff  :o

I am one of those weird people who likes Arnie's music because it's nightmarish, outlandish and creepy! Great stuff!!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: mjwal on September 07, 2010, 02:34:40 AM
I agree with you, Velimir - and there is nothing more "human" and "dirty" than the scene from the concentration camp in Ein Überlebender aus Warschau or the scene of the Golden Calf from Moses und Aron ; on the other hand, I find the Violin Concerto - ironically characterised by snypyrrr as more or less abnormal and offensive to the "normal" ear (whatever that might mean, and since when were the Aunt Marthas or Constable Plods ever interested in music as an art form AT ALL?????) - a mind-bending view of a mental reality transcending "real life" in the sense of  neighbour gossip over endless cups of tea; does the theorist of quantum physics have to justify his ideas to ignorant scientific illiterates? And as to the (one hopes) satirically conceived idea of a Bach out of touch with the "human" "dirty" elements of life, I am thoroughly nonplussed: even a satirist must take account of fact, to a certain extent. The human emotions displayed in the cantatas and passions, the quodlibet in the Goldberg-Variationen (“Denen Liebhabern zur Gemüths-Ergetzung verfertiget" doesn't sound like unworldly abstraction), the omnipresent dance forms and exploration of instrumental sonorities in for instance the cello suites - these are not part of "the whole world"? As my grandmother would have said, stuff and nonsense.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 07, 2010, 02:54:01 AM
I agree with you, Velimir - and there is nothing more "human" and "dirty" than the scene from the concentration camp in Ein Überlebender aus Warschau . . . .

But, of course, it isn't just the humanity and the dirt, even in that piece.  There are many sublime moments in the literature, but there is (I think) a unique character to the sublime sunburst of the men's chorus breaking out with the Sch'ma Yisroel in A Survivor.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: mjwal on September 07, 2010, 06:59:35 AM
Sublime, yes, but a very human affirmation of hopeful solidarity, which doesn't change the fact that "tout ça finira très mal". I didn't say anything was "just" anything, though.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen:SQs/ Arditti
Post by: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 08:35:53 AM
I'm trading out the Leipzigers for the Ardittis. Hands down, the Ardittis attack 3-4 like no other, opening No.3 without hesitating, and giving No.4 tonal shadings overlooked by others. This is the keeper.

Timings for No.3/I. Moderato are the same (8:36) for both, but the Ardittis plow ahead with a forward momentum missing in the Leipziger's.


This Arditti set is becoming quite rare. huh
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: New Quartets?
Post by: snyprrr on October 24, 2010, 08:39:57 PM
Do we have word on the new SQs 3-4 on Naxos, featuring the Fred Sherry Quartet?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: New Quartets?
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2010, 07:44:46 PM
Do we have word on the new SQs 3-4 on Naxos, featuring the Fred Sherry Quartet?

Nobody? :'(
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2011, 10:50:23 AM
I've been listening to the Chamber Symphony No 2, and I feel more and more strongly that this is Schoenberg's masterpiece.  What I love about it is the utterly free counterpoint.  The first movement was written before Schoenberg defined his serial composition method and the piece was finished afterwards.  To me it doesn't sound as though it is consciously "atonal" it just sounds as though the voices have escaped tonality and sing unencumbered. 

I have several recordings of the piece that I enjoy, but the one I am listening to now is particulary beautiful, by Michael Gielen.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e6/59/4a71e03ae7a026f6d36cf110.L._AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2011, 05:51:04 PM
I've been listening to the Chamber Symphony No 2, and I feel more and more strongly that this is Schoenberg's masterpiece.  What I love about it is the utterly free counterpoint.  The first movement was written before Schoenberg defined his serial composition method and the piece was finished afterwards.  To me it doesn't sound as though it is consciously "atonal" it just sounds as though the voices have escaped tonality and sing unencumbered. 

I have several recordings of the piece that I enjoy, but the one I am listening to now is particulary beautiful, by Michael Gielen.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e6/59/4a71e03ae7a026f6d36cf110.L._AA300_.jpg)

I think the Chamber Symphony No. 2 is one of Schoenberg's masterpieces. It's an excellent work no doubt. The orchestration of that work is top-notch. His Piano Concerto has become one of my favorite works by him lately. I need to get another recording of this work as the only one I own is the Emmanuel Ax/Salonen performance on Sony, which is excellent, but I would like to hear another interpretation of it. I see that Brendel is out-of-print and quite expensive, have you heard any other performance of this concerto that you enjoyed? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2011, 06:27:47 PM
I see that Brendel is out-of-print and quite expensive, have you heard any other performance of this concerto that you enjoyed? Thanks in advance.

This is the only recording of the piece that I have heard, and I don't feel the need to hear another.   Brendel has at least one prior recording of the piece, and there is an Uchida recording with Boulez (I generally don't prefer her recordings) but I think this recording is worth any reasonable price.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: CD on April 06, 2011, 06:31:20 PM
What does everyone (who's heard it) think of the Wind Quintet?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2011, 06:31:56 PM
This is the only recording of the piece that I have heard, and I don't feel the need to hear another.   Brendel has an earlier recording of the same piece on Vox, I think.

Don't like the concerto, eh? Actually, Brendel's first account was on DG with Kubelik conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2011, 06:35:47 PM
Don't like the concerto, eh? Actually, Brendel's first account was on DG with Kubelik conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony.

You've taken me the wrong way.  I think this performance is so good that I feel any other recording will superfluous.  I find the Piano Concerto to be one of Schoenberg's more interesting pieces.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
You've taken me the wrong way.  I think this performance is so good that I feel any other recording will superfluous.  I find the Piano Concerto to be one of Schoenberg's more interesting pieces.

Well, you didn't necessarily make your opinion that clear. ;) You should've said that Brendel's performance is so good that you doubt any other performance would top it.

I personally like having multiple recordings of the same work. There are some instances where I feel very strongly about one performance (i. e. MTT's performance of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass), but there's still a lingering suspicion floating around my mind that I may very well find one that betters my favorite.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2011, 02:23:39 AM
What does everyone (who's heard it) think of the Wind Quintet?

Top-shelf Schoenberg!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 07, 2011, 06:05:35 AM
Top-shelf Schoenberg!

If so, I prefer to keep it on a shelf that's too high for me to reach. I (regretfully) have to agree with "arid." I really feel that at least his initial discovery of the row tended to constrict S's imagination in a way not found in the freely atonal works between opp. 11-22 or so.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: CD on April 07, 2011, 11:30:13 AM
I agree with sfz — if it were maybe half the length it would be a bracing, challenging listen. At almost 40 minutes it puts me to sleep. But I'm willing to keep trying!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2011, 05:12:48 PM
Not much use to you gents, I know . . . I just took to the piece straight off.  I find it brilliantly executed, nervy & strong, and that it wears its scale well.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Scarpia on April 07, 2011, 05:20:22 PM
Not much use to you gents, I know . . . I just took to the piece straight off.  I find it brilliantly executed, nervy & strong, and that it wears its scale well.

Well, us lightweights can try it one movement at a time.   0:)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: mjwal on April 08, 2011, 07:11:41 AM
Mirror Image wrote:
>>I think the Chamber Symphony No. 2 is one of Schoenberg's masterpieces. It's an excellent work no doubt. The orchestration of that work is top-notch. His Piano Concerto has become one of my favorite works by him lately. I need to get another recording of this work as the only one I own is the Emmanuel Ax/Salonen performance on Sony, which is excellent, but I would like to hear another interpretation of it. I see that Brendel is out-of-print and quite expensive, have you heard any other performance of this concerto that you enjoyed? Thanks in advance.<<
Apart from finding Glenn Gould's version on Sony a very illuminating approach, I must recommend Steuermann's performance with Scherchen (1954) as the classic recording by an artist involved in the historic movement. I can't seem to find it online - perhaps because it was a radio performance; I taped it from the Hessian radio some time ago. You will find the discographic reference here:
 http://www.fonoteca.ch/green/discographies/Scherchen.pdf - it used to be on Arkadia CD, it seems. -  By the way, Brendel's first version was indeed on Vox, it may be found in the 35 CD complete early Brendel box by Brilliant; one reviewer calls it the "marvelously spiky, thrilling recording of Arnold Schoenberg’s Piano Concerto." I have heard it but sooo long ago...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leo K. on April 08, 2011, 02:14:16 PM
Well, you didn't necessarily make your opinion that clear. ;) You should've said that Brendel's performance is so good that you doubt any other performance would top it.

I personally like having multiple recordings of the same work. There are some instances where I feel very strongly about one performance (i. e. MTT's performance of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass), but there's still a lingering suspicion floating around my mind that I may very well find one that betters my favorite.

I really LOVE this one:

(http://images.pricerunner.com/product/image/81254863/Mitsuko-Uchida-Schoenberg-Piano-Concerto.jpg)

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on June 10, 2011, 08:18:11 PM
Does anybody know what killed Schoenberg? I can't find anything on this. Thanks.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 10, 2011, 11:20:05 PM
Does anybody know what killed Schoenberg? I can't find anything on this. Thanks.

I think it was either a stroke or heart attack. But what is interesting - and creepy - are the circumstances surrounding his death.

Schoenberg was a lifelong triskadecaphobic (afraid of the number 13). It was 1951, and his 76th birthday was coming up. Since 7+6=13, he was deathly afraid something might happen to him on that day. When the day came, he stayed home, keeping mostly to his bed. As the clock approached midnight, he began to relax a little - maybe he would escape whatever Fate had in store for him. At 11:47 PM, that is 13 minutes before midnight, he died. His last word was "harmony."
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Luke on June 10, 2011, 11:31:57 PM
I think it was either a stroke or heart attack. But what is interesting - and creepy - are the circumstances surrounding his death.

Schoenberg was a lifelong triskadecaphobic (afraid of the number 13). It was 1951, and his 76th birthday was coming up. Since 7+6=13, he was deathly afraid something might happen to him on that day. When the day came, he stayed home, keeping mostly to his bed. As the clock approached midnight, he began to relax a little - maybe he would escape whatever Fate had in store for him. At 11:47 PM, that is 13 minutes before midnight, he died. His last word was "harmony."

Not quite, he didn't die on his birthday, and he was already 76. But he did die on Friday 13th. Wiki says:

Quote
Schoenberg experienced triskaidekaphobia (the fear of the number 13), which possibly began in 1908 with the composition of the thirteenth song of the song cycle Das Buch der Hängenden Gärten Op. 15 (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 96). Moses und Aron was originally spelled Moses und Aaron, but when he realised this contained 13 letters, he changed it.

...I'd add, BTW, he wouldn't number bar 13 in his scores, but would call it 12a...

Quote
His superstitious nature may have triggered his death. According to friend Katia Mann, he feared he would die during a year that was a multiple of 13 (quoted in Lebrecht 1985, 294). He so dreaded his sixty-fifth birthday in 1939 that a friend asked the composer and astrologer Dane Rudhyar to prepare Schoenberg's horoscope. Rudhyar did this and told Schoenberg that the year was dangerous, but not fatal.

But in 1950, on his seventy-sixth birthday, an astrologer wrote Schoenberg a note warning him that the year was a critical one: 7 + 6 = 13 (Nuria Schoenberg-Nono, quoted in Lebrecht 1985, 295). This stunned and depressed the composer, for up to that point he had only been wary of multiples of 13 and never considered adding the digits of his age. On Friday, 13 July 1951, Schoenberg stayed in bed—sick, anxious and depressed. In a letter to Schoenberg's sister Ottilie, dated 4 August 1951, his wife Gertrud reported, "About a quarter to twelve I looked at the clock and said to myself: another quarter of an hour and then the worst is over. Then the doctor called me. Arnold's throat rattled twice, his heart gave a powerful beat and that was the end" (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 521). Gertrud Schoenberg reported the next day in a telegram to her sister-in-law Ottilie that Arnold died at 11:45pm (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 520).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2011, 05:48:00 AM
I think it was either a stroke or heart attack. But what is interesting - and creepy - are the circumstances surrounding his death.

Schoenberg was a lifelong triskadecaphobic (afraid of the number 13). It was 1951, and his 76th birthday was coming up. Since 7+6=13, he was deathly afraid something might happen to him on that day. When the day came, he stayed home, keeping mostly to his bed. As the clock approached midnight, he began to relax a little - maybe he would escape whatever Fate had in store for him. At 11:47 PM, that is 13 minutes before midnight, he died. His last word was "harmony."

I'm aware of the circumstances surrounding his death, but I wanted to find out his cause of death. Every article I've read doesn't mention this at all. It seems that many composers have died with undisclosed information.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: mjwal on June 12, 2011, 05:11:57 AM
He died of heart failure. He had been suffering badly from asthma for some time. His biographer Stuckenschmidt quotes a letter S. wrote about his treatment shortly before his death: "For some months now I have not dared to sleep in a bed, only in a chair. They gave me various treatments, for diabetes, pneumonia, kidneys, hernia and dropsy. I suffer from lack of energy and dizziness, and my eyes, which used to be extraordinarily good, make it difficult to read." Presumably the doctors were not sure of "the cause" of his deteriorating condition - his heart had already  stopped once (from this "NDE" the great string trio was born) - and tried various things out. His heart beat one last time quite strongly, and then he was dead, according to a telegram from Gertrud to his sister Ottilie Blumauer-Schönberg in Berlin, in which she said that for some time now he had been very tired and longed for death. Apparently his last utterance was "harmony".
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2011, 07:09:01 AM
Thanks mjwal for the information.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Parsifal on June 12, 2011, 07:33:58 AM
After reading these last posts, I feel like hearing Herzgewächse now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz98sU_rPK8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz98sU_rPK8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Lethevich on July 12, 2011, 05:33:44 PM
Let's talk quartets! Alongside his four numbered works, there is a youth quartet in D minor major, a lesser piece with a certain Schubertian/Brahmsian flavour, and also two stand-alone presto and scherzo movements. These are scarcely recorded, but the Leipzig quartet's disc with the D minor coupled with No.1 is very sensitively played and places in perfect context. The work should be recorded more often, as it's an essential part of Schoenberg's stylistic continuum.

The LaSalle Quartet cycle feels a bit outdated next to the Leipzig Quartet, and I don't find myself listening to it often. What is the Arditti Quartet's recording like? They are mentioned a lot but have been OOP for a ridiculously long time considering the stature of the group and works. The Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos, available only in a mid-priced box of his chamber music has been on my radar, but I must confess I don't covet that set primarilly for the quartets. Has anybody heard the New Vienna Quartet recording on Philips? I initially learned the cycle through the Kolisch Quartet recordings, but they sound too old for me to enjoy, I'm afraid.

Outside of the cycles, the Prazák Quartet Praga disc of No.3 and the two movements, as well as a Webern arrangement of the first chamber symphony for piano quintet is great for the repertoire choice alone, but the third is a very good recording - I can't claim that I find my adored Leipzig Quartet recording of the piece any better. The Naxos disc of No.3 and 4 by the Fred Sherry String Quartet (who?) looks tempting but I am wary from reports of it sounding rather dry.

I post this here because I don't think it will get much attention in the recordings section...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 12, 2011, 05:40:59 PM
Let's talk quartets!

What is the Arditti Quartet's recording like? They are mentioned a lot but have been OOP for a ridiculously long time considering the stature of the group and works.

I have the Arditti set but have nothing to compare it to, repertoire-wise. But that won't stop me from heaping praise on the set! One thing is certain right off the bat: the level of commitment is total. And with such a talented foursome the end result is stellar.

Why it languishes out of print is a total mystery....


 
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 06:17:11 PM
I have the Arditti set but have nothing to compare it to, repertoire-wise. But that won't stop me from heaping praise on the set! One thing is certain right off the bat: the level of commitment is total. And with such a talented foursome the end result is stellar.

Why it languishes out of print is a total mystery....


 
Let's talk quartets! Alongside his four numbered works, there is a youth quartet in D minor, a lesser piece with a certain Schubertian/Brahmsian flavour, and also two stand-alone presto and scherzo movements. These are scarcely recorded, but the Leipzig quartet's disc with the D minor coupled with No.1 is very sensitively played and places in perfect context. The work should be recorded more often, as it's an essential part of Schoenberg's stylistic continuum.

The LaSalle Quartet cycle feels a bit outdated next to the Leipzig Quartet, and I don't find myself listening to it often. What is the Arditti Quartet's recording like? They are mentioned a lot but have been OOP for a ridiculously long time considering the stature of the group and works. The Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos, available only in a mid-priced box of his chamber music has been on my radar, but I must confess I don't covet that set primarilly for the quartets. Has anybody heard the New Vienna Quartet recording on Philips?

Outside of the cycles, the Prazák Quartet Praga disc of No.3 and the two movements, as well as a Webern arrangement of the first chamber symphony for piano quintet is great for the repertoire choice alone, but the third is a very good recording - I can't claim that I find my adored Leipzig Quartet recording of the piece any better. The Naxos disc of No.3 and 4 by the Fred Sherry String Quartet (who?) looks tempting but I am wary from reports of it sounding rather dry.

I post this here because I don't think it will get much attention in the recordings section...

Arditti > Leipzig

The Ardittis just own this stuff (listen on YT). You hear what sounds like everything from them, and realize the Leipzigers are just 'Very Very Good'. If the Sherry cd is marred :'(, that really leaves no competition. I do have the Berner on Koch in No.1/Op.7, and they beat out the Leipzigers on that one.

Recordings on 3 & 4 are so rare, that ANY blemish on that Naxos disc should be cause for rioting! ::) What scarcity there is on Amazon (Wihan,...??,...??,...) is probably not worth the trouble. I sure haaave been waiting on some feedback for that Sherry cd,... what gives Karl? ;D,... why hasn't someone 'sacrificed' themselves (as my mother would say) and taken one for the team here? Must I? I'm holding out for a good copy of the Arditti, most preferrably in the old Montaigne box, drool drool. I actually had a copy offEbay I think, last year, but it had a very slight skip in No.4,... yea, no, couldn't do that, and returned it :'(,... so, if you think there CAN be more than the Arditti, I sure don't know what it is, because they play No.4 with such perfect 'Expressionism' and vehemence of attack that it WILL make you like this music.

Going for $80 pretty much anywhere.


btw- Lethe,... I found that early SQ very very Dvorakian,...mm,... I guess I was disappointed,... I think I could swear I've heard that one melody elsewhere...


The fact that neither the Peterson, Hagen,... nor the Emerson, nor any other major group seems to find these pieces worthy of their time, is interesting. I think it's political.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Lethevich on July 12, 2011, 06:32:08 PM
I also found the student quartet's first movement theme to have a very airy, rustic Dvořákian quality, but didn't have the confidence to stand by my impression when I stood back and thought "Schoenberg, Dvořák... what?". Nice observation :)

I also agree about how strange the lack of recordings are. It's nothing to do with any problems with the pieces themselves, which are bulletproof in every respect. I found the Arditti cycle shared somewhere by a kind soul, so will give it a listen sometime. I can pm you a link if you like - although iirc your connection sucks/sucked at one point?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: petrarch on July 12, 2011, 08:42:49 PM
Going for $80 pretty much anywhere.

I believe you can get the FLACs with relative ease. But I am with you; getting the Montaigne CD with the original cover is a desire I share (unfortunately that one was not part of my purchases when I stocked up on Montaigne CDs in the mid-90s).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on September 13, 2011, 03:00:38 PM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Lib-BIG/Schoenberg-Arnold-13.jpg)

Happy Birthday, Arnold!!!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2011, 04:28:01 AM
But that's funny! I've long known that he died on the 13th (of July), but if I ever knew that he was born on the 13th, I had forgotten.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leon on September 14, 2011, 05:08:52 AM
Let's talk quartets! Alongside his four numbered works, there is a youth quartet in D minor major, a lesser piece with a certain Schubertian/Brahmsian flavour, and also two stand-alone presto and scherzo movements. These are scarcely recorded, but the Leipzig quartet's disc with the D minor coupled with No.1 is very sensitively played and places in perfect context. The work should be recorded more often, as it's an essential part of Schoenberg's stylistic continuum.

The LaSalle Quartet cycle feels a bit outdated next to the Leipzig Quartet, and I don't find myself listening to it often. What is the Arditti Quartet's recording like? They are mentioned a lot but have been OOP for a ridiculously long time considering the stature of the group and works. The Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos, available only in a mid-priced box of his chamber music has been on my radar, but I must confess I don't covet that set primarilly for the quartets. Has anybody heard the New Vienna Quartet recording on Philips? I initially learned the cycle through the Kolisch Quartet recordings, but they sound too old for me to enjoy, I'm afraid.

Outside of the cycles, the Prazák Quartet Praga disc of No.3 and the two movements, as well as a Webern arrangement of the first chamber symphony for piano quintet is great for the repertoire choice alone, but the third is a very good recording - I can't claim that I find my adored Leipzig Quartet recording of the piece any better. The Naxos disc of No.3 and 4 by the Fred Sherry String Quartet (who?) looks tempting but I am wary from reports of it sounding rather dry.

I post this here because I don't think it will get much attention in the recordings section...

I have the LaSalle and New Vienna but find myself listening to the Aron Quartett a lot:



And I still like my first collection of these works in an old Vox box by the Kohon & Ramor Quartets

(http://www.lpking.com/shop/images/products/s/A0200737s.jpg)

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2011, 06:42:32 AM
But that's funny! I've long known that he died on the 13th (of July), but if I ever knew that he was born on the 13th, I had forgotten.

Yes, the number "13" played a big roll in Schoenberg's life. :D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 14, 2011, 07:14:15 AM
And I still like my first collection of these works in an old Vox box by the Kohon & Ramor Quartets
(http://www.lpking.com/shop/images/products/s/A0200737s.jpg)

I have that too  8)  Mine was free. The base library gave away books and records that were seldom or never borrowed to make room for newer acquisitions. The LPs were in pristine condition (I doubt they'd ever been played). I just snapped this picture:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/P9140177.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leon on September 14, 2011, 07:19:08 AM
I have that too  8)  Mine was free. The base library gave away books and records that were seldom or never borrowed to make room for newer acquisitions. The LPs were in pristine condition (I doubt they'd ever been played). I just snapped this picture:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/P9140177.jpg)


Sarge

Ha! - you're the first person to say they had that set when I've mentioned it; I was beginning to believe that I had the only one ever pressed.  I think for a while it was the only complete set.  And thanks for the image - when I Googled it, nothing came up except for small ones.

 :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 11, 2011, 05:43:17 AM
Just good clean fun: Schoenberg's orchestration of the BWV 552.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4h_PnVCyIxY

http://www.youtube.com/v/MDWVrHtDr_o
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leon on December 13, 2011, 09:26:05 AM
Arkiv Music is having a sale on Naxos and I just ordered Vol. 1 of Robert Craft's complete traversal of Schoenberg (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=250781).

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/250781.jpg)

Looking forward to getting the rest of the boxes as they come out.

Nice price too.

 :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 13, 2011, 09:28:20 AM
Very nice!  I already have the lion's share of those on the source Koch discs . . . great to see that the recordings continue to be available via Naxos.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2011, 12:03:31 PM
Arkiv Music is having a sale on Naxos and I just ordered Vol. 1 of Robert Craft's complete traversal of Schoenberg (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=250781).

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/250781.jpg)

Looking forward to getting the rest of the boxes as they come out.

Nice price too.

 :)

I bought both sets a year or so ago and they are very good indeed. But in all honesty, I think Karajan's Pelleas und Melissande easily outdoes Craft's. I also think Craft's Gurre-lieder was good, but it didn't particularly make me forget Chailly or Sinopoli. The Violin Concerto in the set is well performed, but it doesn't top Hilary Hahn's remarkable performance. The sets are of good value and contain some rarities and will help fill in some holes in a Schoenberg collection.

What's your favorite Schoenberg work?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leon on December 13, 2011, 12:42:58 PM
What's your favorite Schoenberg work?

I am not sure that I have a "favorite", or at least it would be too hard to narrow down to one.  His music is such that I find almost his entire oeuvre fascinating. 

That said, the Piano Concerto, Op. 42, Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16, the Third String Quartet, Op. 30 and the Three Piano Pieces, Op. 11 are works I  keep coming back to. 

I am less a fan of his early, pre-dodecophonic, works.

 :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 13, 2011, 12:54:06 PM
I am not sure that I have a "favorite", or at least it would be too hard to narrow down to one.  His music is such that I find almost his entire oeuvre fascinating. 

That said, the Piano Concerto, Op. 42, Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16, the Third String Quartet, Op. 30 and the Three Piano Pieces, Op. 11 are works I  keep coming back to. 

I am less a fan of his early, pre-dodecophonic, works.

 :)

Interesting!

I've always had a fondness for the Serenade, Op.24.  Love Pierrot, if the singer isn't too . . . distractingDie glückliche Hand, Herzgewächse, the Kammersymphonien . . . all the quartets, and (lately) the Wind Quintet . . . so much of it I find toothsome.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2011, 01:03:26 PM
I am not sure that I have a "favorite", or at least it would be too hard to narrow down to one.  His music is such that I find almost his entire oeuvre fascinating. 

That said, the Piano Concerto, Op. 42, Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16, the Third String Quartet, Op. 30 and the Three Piano Pieces, Op. 11 are works I  keep coming back to. 

I am less a fan of his early, pre-dodecophonic, works.

 :)

Oh, I really like the Piano Concerto and wish it was performed and recorded more than it is right now. Five Pieces for Orchestra is also a fine work. I prefer it to Variations for Orchestra whereas I know many people who prefer Variations to Five Pieces. :-\ Anyway, I like Schoenberg, but Berg is my favorite from the Second Viennese School.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2011, 01:06:00 PM
Interesting!

I've always had a fondness for the Serenade, Op.24. Die glückliche Hand, the Kammersymphonien


I like all of these works. Die gluckliche Hand, in particular, has some remarkable sonorities.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Leon on December 13, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Interesting!

I've always had a fondness for the Serenade, Op.24.  Love Pierrot, if the singer isn't too . . . distractingDie glückliche Hand, Herzgewächse, the Kammersymphonien . . . all the quartets, and (lately) the Wind Quintet . . . so much of it I find toothsome.


I could easily have included the Serenade and the Chamber Symphony in my list - but then, the list could have gone on and on since Schoenberg is a composer whom I especially enjoy. 

I like Schoenberg, but Berg is my favorite from the Second Viennese School.

Yes, I also like Berg a lot.

 :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: edward on December 13, 2011, 05:02:50 PM
My biggest issue with the Craft set is that I find some of the middle-period works too tense and hard-driven in Craft's readings; the Variations, Septet-Suite and Serenade all lack the moments of repose that--at least for me, are what make the works. Having said that, there's some really great stuff in these discs: outstanding 3rd and 4th quartets; a delightful String Quartet Concerto; a fine Wind Quintet (a case where the faster tempi do bear fruit, I think); plus the already-mentioned Violin Concerto where I think Schulte, though less spectacular on the surface, may actually dig deeper than Hahn. (The Hahn reading was the one that finally convinced me of the merits of the work, but it's Schulte that I've been returning to of late.)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 31, 2012, 11:54:25 AM
I was introduced to Schönberg's music listening to A Survivor from Warsaw and Pierrot Lunaire and he quickly became one of my favourite 20th Century composers. His music, so thrilling, intense and rich of a strong, dramatic expression, has always impressed me a lot; it has deep introspection, a so gorgeous, brilliant chromaticism taken to extremes and great beauty, absolutely impressive.
My favourite works are Verklärte Nacht, A Survivor from Warsaw, Pierrot Luinare, Pelleas und Melisande, the Chamber symphonies, Variations for Orchestra, the Violin Concerto and the Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on May 31, 2012, 04:26:07 PM
I was introduced to Schönberg's music listening to A Survivor from Warsaw and Pierrot Lunaire and he quickly became one of my favourite 20th Century composers. His music, so thrilling, intense and rich of a strong, dramatic expression, has always impressed me a lot; it has deep introspection, a so gorgeous, brilliant chromaticism taken to extremes and great beauty, absolutely impressive.
My favourite works are Verklärte Nacht, A Survivor from Warsaw, Pierrot Luinare, Pelleas und Melisande, the Chamber symphonies, Variations for Orchestra, the Violin Concerto and the Piano Concerto.

Have nearly 6 months gone by without anything written here about Schoenberg?

If you like those, then let me recommend two of his greatest (incomplete, but...) works:  Jakobsleiter and Moses und Aron.

The spiritual-musical experience is not one of incompleteness: both end on single notes, and although Schoenberg intended to continue the works, his musical unconscious decided otherwise.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 01, 2012, 01:14:40 AM
Have nearly 6 months gone by without anything written here about Schoenberg?

If you like those, then let me recommend two of his greatest (incomplete, but...) works:  Jakobsleiterand Moses und Aron.

The spiritual-musical experience is not one of incompleteness: both end on single notes, and althoughSchoenberg intended to continue the works, his musical unconscious decided otherwise.

Thank you for the feedback, Cato :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 01, 2012, 09:58:55 AM
Aye, as is often the case with one of Cato's posts, I find myself eager to revisit the music under advisement!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on June 01, 2012, 03:54:27 PM
Have nearly 6 months gone by without anything written here about Schoenberg?

If you like those, then let me recommend two of his greatest (incomplete, but...) works:  Jakobsleiter and Moses und Aron.

The spiritual-musical experience is not one of incompleteness: both end on single notes, and although Schoenberg intended to continue the works, his musical unconscious decided otherwise.



Let me recommend this older recording of the cantata Jacob's Ladder which work is now represented only by used CD's, at least on Amazon.   ???

The multi-channel Kent Nagano recording is also good, but very expensive now!



Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Concord on August 30, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
Pierrot Lunaire will be performed - twice! - next week in Philadelphia (http://www.germansociety.org/schoenberg-concert2012.html). I shall be there.
Title: Re: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2012, 02:39:57 PM
Pierroe Lunaire will be performed - twice! - next week in Philadelphia (http://www.germansociety.org/schoenberg-concert2012.html). I shall be there.

Nice! A terrific piece to hear live.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on August 30, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
Pierrot Lunaire is a microcosmic nuclear explosion with a macropsychic effect.   0:)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2012, 05:16:30 PM
Pierroe Lunaire will be performed - twice! - next week in Philadelphia (http://www.germansociety.org/schoenberg-concert2012.html). I shall be there.

I'm envious, my favorite Schoenberg piece. (I typed that in Sprechstimme)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: PaulR on August 30, 2012, 06:07:04 PM
I'm envious, my favorite Schoenberg piece. (I typed that in Sprechstimme)
It would've been more effective if some of the letters in that post were approximate, somehow.

I only saw Pierrot live once at school.  I did not appreciate the atonality of Schoenberg then as I do now.  Meaning, I need to go to see it live again.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Concord on September 03, 2012, 03:51:36 PM
Pierrot Lunaire is a microcosmic nuclear explosion with a macropsychic effect.   0:)

I wish I had spoken to you before I wrote the preview.   :o
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2012, 07:59:57 PM



Let me recommend this older recording of the cantata Jacob's Ladder which work is now represented only by used CD's, at least on Amazon.   ???

That's a fantastic recording. Love Die Jakobsleiter. Boulez's performance is impeccable. Sad to see this recording is out-of-print. I bought mine for $4.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2012, 08:03:38 PM
Has anyone seen  ..?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZlHtAMmfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCoA-AXHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OCZ7Z2/?tag=goodmusicguideco
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003X859HK/?tag=goodmusicguideco


or ..
 



I haven't seen any of these, James, but I still haven't listened to Moses und Aron all the way through. Each time I listened to it, it seemed like I got distracted.

These are the two recordings I own of it:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AyLm5b0nNaE/Tb1952hxMlI/AAAAAAAABN0/vVBAhieugew/s1600/Front%252811%2529.jpg)

(http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/328/328545_1_f.jpg)

My understanding is the Boulez Concertgebouw is a pretty hot commodity now as it's out-of-print.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2012, 08:11:50 PM
My biggest issue with the Craft set is that I find some of the middle-period works too tense and hard-driven in Craft's readings; the Variations, Septet-Suite and Serenade all lack the moments of repose that--at least for me, are what make the works. Having said that, there's some really great stuff in these discs: outstanding 3rd and 4th quartets; a delightful String Quartet Concerto; a fine Wind Quintet (a case where the faster tempi do bear fruit, I think); plus the already-mentioned Violin Concerto where I think Schulte, though less spectacular on the surface, may actually dig deeper than Hahn. (The Hahn reading was the one that finally convinced me of the merits of the work, but it's Schulte that I've been returning to of late.)

Interesting opinions, Edward. I think I'm inclined to agree with you. I thought Boulez's Serenade was much more to my liking. I'm starting to really feel that Schulte is finer than Hahn in terms of emotional weight, but Hahn seems to get recognized more and, thus, has the higher profile. But, in the end, it's the merits of the performance itself that we evaluate and I think Schulte's performance is one that will probably retain the 'underdog' status. Still, I'm grateful for both performances and think Schulte and Hahn both had great accompaniment from Craft and Salonen.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Wendell_E on November 08, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
Has anyone seen  ..?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZlHtAMmfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCoA-AXHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OCZ7Z2/?tag=goodmusicguideco
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003X859HK/?tag=goodmusicguideco


or ..
 



I've got the first two.  I particularly like the second, from the Ruhrtriennale 2009, for its fascinating production, but they're both very good.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on November 09, 2012, 10:08:50 PM
Interesting opinions, Edward. I think I'm inclined to agree with you. I thought Boulez's Serenade was much more to my liking. I'm starting to really feel that Schulte is finer than Hahn in terms of emotional weight, but Hahn seems to get recognized more and, thus, has the higher profile. But, in the end, it's the merits of the performance itself that we evaluate and I think Schulte's performance is one that will probably retain the 'underdog' status. Still, I'm grateful for both performances and think Schulte and Hahn both had great accompaniment from Craft and Salonen.

Don't forget those Atherton recordings !
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2012, 10:13:33 PM
Don't forget those Atherton recordings !

Haven't heard the Atherton's yet, but I'll check them out. Kudos, snyprrr.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2012, 05:03:31 PM
This recording with Jan DeGaetani was phenomenal.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b0/6c/f9f88bacd7a0259c38e27110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Yes, that is a classic, right up there with Helga Pilarczyk's Pierrot Lunaire and Erwartung.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 13, 2012, 05:13:46 AM
Just for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/v/oOGQPowX86s
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 13, 2012, 02:21:24 PM
To-day, I finally saw to the task of loading all my Craft/Schoenberg onto portable devices.

Well, no, not quite, as I've not yet seen to his account of the Gurre-Lieder.

 
In any event, I still have eleven discs of Boulez/Schoenberg to address . . . soon.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2012, 12:01:08 PM
Also still have got the Boulez/Webern Sony re-issue to see to.

And heaven help me: I've pulled the trigger on a copy of the HvK Second Viennese School box . . . .
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on December 14, 2012, 04:01:58 PM
And heaven help me: I've pulled the trigger on a copy of the HvK Second Viennese School box . . . .

Oh you are late to the party here, haha!! Surely you've had them before.

Karl?

Karl?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2012, 05:20:36 PM
Nope, never before.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 07, 2013, 05:31:10 AM
That's actually less hyperbolic than you might imagine. The Schoenberg/Gould box I own contains two hours of Arnie.

Sarge

Thanks to the Sarge's post here . . . I've pulled ye trigger on that very 2-CD box.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: petrarch on January 07, 2013, 11:07:56 AM
I have been reading this book and finding it almost mandatory for anyone wishing to gain a better appreciation for Schoenberg, and his students.



+1. I have read it (I think I even have it) in the original language, French.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 14, 2013, 11:38:03 AM
Cross-post

Quote from: Arnold Schoenberg
. . . Here I must confess that I, too, at first considered Mahler’s themes banal.  I consider it important to admit that I was Saul before I became Paul, since it may thence be deduced that those ‘fine discriminations’ of which certain opponents are so proud were not foreign to me. But they are foreign to me now, ever since my increasingly intense perception of the beauty and magnificence of Mahler's work has brought me to the point of admitting that it is not fine discrimination, but, on the contrary, the most blatant lack of the power of discrimination, which produces such judgements. I had found Mahler's themes banal, although the whole work had always made a profound impression on me. Today, with the worst will in the world, I could not react this way. Consider this: if they were really banal I should find them far more banal today than formerly.  For banal means rustic, and describes something which belongs to a low grade of culture, to no culture at all. In lower grades of culture there is found, not what is absolutely false or bad, but what used to be right, what is obsolete, what has been outlived, what is no longer true. The peasant does not behave badly, but archaically, just as those of a higher rank behaved before they knew better. Therefore, the banal represents a backward state of ethics and state of mind, which was once the state of mind of the higher ranks; it was not banal from the beginning, but became banal only when it was pushed aside by new and better customs. But it cannot rise up again — once it is banal, it must stay banal. And if I now maintain that I can no longer find these themes banal, they can never have been so; for a banal idea, an idea which appears obsolete and worn-out to me, can only appear more banal on closer acquaintance — but in no case noble. But if now I discover that the oftener I look at these ideas the more new beauties and noble traits are added to them, doubt is no longer possible: the idea is the opposite of banal. It is not something that we were long ago done with and cannot misunderstand, but something the deepest meaning of which is as yet far from completely revealed, something so profound that we have not become aware of more than its superficial appearance. And, in fact, this has happened not only to Mahler, but also to nearly all other great composers, who had to submit to the accusation of banality. I call to mind only Wagner and Brahms. I think that the change in my feeling provides a better yardstick than the judgement on first hearing which everyone is very quick to come out with as soon as he runs into a situation which he really does not understand.

From Style and Idea: Selected Writings of Arnold Schoenberg pp.455-456.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on February 14, 2013, 01:32:07 PM
Thanks to the Sarge's post here . . . I've pulled ye trigger on that very 2-CD box.

All this gun talk Karl? :o
Title: Re: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 14, 2013, 01:49:24 PM
All this gun talk Karl? :o

Have you thought that maybe you want to see it as gun talk, snypsss?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on February 14, 2013, 01:54:38 PM
Thanks to Karl Henning:

Quote from Arnold Schoenberg:

Quote
. . . Here I must confess that I, too, at first considered Mahler’s themes banal.  I consider it important to admit that I was Saul before I became Paul, since it may thence be deduced that those ‘fine discriminations’ of which certain opponents are so proud were not foreign to me. But they are foreign to me now, ever since my increasingly intense perception of the beauty and magnificence of Mahler's work has brought me to the point of admitting that it is not fine discrimination, but, on the contrary, the most blatant lack of the power of discrimination, which produces such judgments. I had found Mahler's themes banal, although the whole work had always made a profound impression on me. Today, with the worst will in the world, I could not react this way.

An excellent example of how artists can change!  "I consider it important to admit that I was Saul before I became Paul."  "Important" indeed!

Schoenberg was not known for a gentle personality, so such a statement is quite revelatory!

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2013, 04:29:02 AM
The Rosbaud Moses und Aron is restocked at BRO. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Octave on March 22, 2013, 04:38:55 AM
Cato/Karl, that Schoenberg quote on Mahler is fascinating; what is the source for it?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2013, 05:11:13 AM
A book which overall is juicy reading:

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2013, 06:44:45 AM
Dunno, that was just the edition to be found at Amazon. I've got the same as your esteemed self.  Possibly just the new foreword by Joseph Auner.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Daverz on March 24, 2013, 02:07:33 PM
The Rosbaud Moses und Aron is restocked at BRO. Just sayin'.

On a label called BAG-OF-RAGS.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 01, 2013, 09:08:37 AM
On a label called BAG-OF-RAGS.  Just sayin'.

It does have that "garage band" feel . . . .
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2013, 06:52:02 AM



Dip Your Ears, No. 146 (Christine Schäfer Sings SchoenBerg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-146-christine-schafer_13.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-146-christine-schafer_13.html)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2013, 05:13:02 AM
The honest answer - I think I owe you one - is, that I simply don't know how to rank Schönberg from the mid-1920s on. The composer of the Gurre Lieder is, no doubt, and even for me  ;) , one of the greatest ever. I have no clue, however, how posterity will judge the system he 'imposed' on part of the art music of the 20th Century. And I'm definitely not qualified to make a try myself.  :)

I think it's not entirely fair to speak of his invention as an imposition. I don't remember ever hearing, for instance, that he was negatively critical of Berg's (arguably) "impure" application of the method in the Violin Concerto.  I think you're reacting to (e.g.) Boulez's militaristic tack; and to (let's face it) a raft-load of mediocre applications of the method.

That said, we don't judge Schoenberg as an artist by the method, but by the music.  I respect your recusing yourself from the question!  So trust the judgement of (e.g.) James Levine, who in two seasons with the BSO made the case that Schoenberg is a pillar of music of a stature to counterpose with Beethoven.  Nor I nor Levine judge his music in distinct categories of the still more-or-less-tonal High Romantic stuff and applications of the twelve-tone method, but as a body, in toto.  And its greatness does not suffer serious challenge.

Edit :: typo
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Christo on October 04, 2013, 06:53:52 AM
I think you're reacting to (e.g.) Boulez's militaristic tack; and to (let's face it) a raft-load of mediocre applications of the method.

That's a fair comment, and yes, I do admire composers who followed the lead of the master, especially Skalkottas, Gerhard and perhaps Lutosławski, too. For historical reasons (once I was young and foolish; I still am, but only the latter) I never really tried with Schönberg himself. (Please forgive me teacher, but I never had any music lessons in all of my life, only played music because I like it).  ???
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2013, 07:03:36 AM
Do you think there are more or less mediocre applications of the 12-tone method a/o/t writing in a tonal style?  Speaking quantitatively,, I think mediocrity reigns in all endeavors.

Agreed, and an important corollary.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Est.1965 on October 04, 2013, 07:30:23 AM
Thanks to Karl Henning:
Quote from Arnold Schoenberg:
"I consider it important to admit that I was Saul before I became Paul."

I am on my way to Damascus guys, don't worry...  :D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
Interesting article about the Op.47 Phantasie. (http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~larry/published_articles/ex_4.pdf)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on December 30, 2013, 04:21:45 PM
Interesting article about the Op.47 Phantasie. (http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~larry/published_articles/ex_4.pdf)

Marvelous phrase in that article: "...Schoenberg's mastery of the ambiguity of form..."

I have always thought the Phantasie was a rather accessible work, the one to play to skeptics or those downright hostile to Schoenberg's works after the Second String Quartet.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2013, 04:25:59 PM
Strange to say, it's a long while since I've actually listened to it . . . I remember studying it in a seminar in Buffalo, so the Idea of the piece has been with me forever.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 15, 2014, 04:10:13 AM

(from Malcom MacDonald's Schoenberg, in the Master Musicians series:)

[Eric Schmid writes:]

It seldom happened that he played anything from his own works. When he did, he always stressed how his own style had developed from existing tradition.  I remember our looking at his first Chamber Symphony . . . Another time, we examined the Wind Quintet Op.26 Schoenberg used this complicated work to show how he integrated classical formal principles in his own style. . . . It is very interesting that he never spoke about twelve-tone technique . . .

On the other hand, he did not stop pupils using it — or any other idiom — so long as the results were musical [...] Eric Schmid once brought to class a twelve-note string quartet he was writing:

[Eric Schmid writes:]

[Schoenberg] immediately got inside the work and showed us how thematic development should really proceed.  There was a certain rigidity in the piece that he thereby immediately dispelled . . . There was a particular thematic development that he did not like.  He made a suggestion that meant using a different sequence of notes. I mentioned shyly that my composition was written using the twelve-tone system . . .

Schoenberg's rejoinder was: 'Well, then you'll have to change the row, won't you!'
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2014, 11:41:47 AM
Time to pull a James :) -

BEGLEITMUSIK ZU EINER LICHTSPIELSZENE (1930)

By Joseph H. Auner, State University of New York at Stonybrook

Film music for a nonexistent film. Schoenberg’s Accompaniment to a Film Scene, Op. 34, was conceived independently of any specific film or scenario, beyond the sparse programmatic outline, “threatening danger, fear, catastrophe,” indicated in the subtitle. The absence of a film has posed a problem since its completion in 1930. A Dresden critic wrote of one of the first performances, “I kept asking myself for several painful minutes, what sort of film, in heaven’s name, is supposed to go with this abstract music?” Even Schoenberg’s pupil Alban Berg commented circumspectly on the lack of a film, “of course it is a complete work or art, but wouldn’t it be wonderful if it could be heard synchronically (or whatever it is called) with a film created by you?”—a suggestion Berg may have recalled when he included a film sequence in his own opera, Lulu, left unfinished at his death in 1935. In recent decades several attempts have been made to provide the missing film, employing either silent films of the twenties or creating new productions specifically to accompany the music.

Yet it is precisely this independence from any one film, the invitation to see what can only be imagined, the substitution of a communal spectacle with a private, internal drama, and the creation of functional music that eludes its function, that are most characteristic of Schoenberg’s complex and confrontational relationship to artistic and cultural developments in Weimar Germany. When he wrote the piece during the fall and winter months of 1929-1930 Schoenberg was a professor of composition at the Prussian Academy of the Arts in Berlin, a prestigious position which he held from 1926 to his departure from Europe in 1933. In contrast to the common view of Schoenberg as standing aloof from the contemporary scene, his works from these years illustrate his engagement with the social and technological changes that were bringing about a new mass culture, as well as his insistence on approaching these developments on his own terms.

The work was premiered under Otto Klemperer on November 6, 1930 in a symphony concert at the Kroll Opera in Berlin (preceded a few months earlier by a radio broadcast with the Frankfurt Symphony under the direction of Hans Rosbaud). Though not without protests, the work was generally well received in these and other performances, a fact that caused Schoenberg some concern, as he wrote to his pupil Heinrich Jalowetz who had conducted it in 1931: “What you told me about the performance pleases me very much. … People do seem to like the piece: ought I to draw any conclusions from that as to its quality? I mean: the public apparently likes it.”

Schoenberg’s irony here reflects a funDamental conflict he felt between the Weimar ideal of art serving the public and his sense of the moral and spiritual mission of the artist-a tension that is dramatized in his opera Moses und Aron which occupied him precisely at this time. This conflict is evident in every aspect of the Accompaniment to a Film Scene. On a practical level, the attractions of the marketplace must have played a role in his accepting the commission to contribute to a special series for the Heinrichshofen publishing house, which specialized in scores for the thriving German silent film industry. Yet while the relatively small orchestra, expanded percussion section, and stripped-down textures reflect the practices of silent film scoring, the work’s complexity, and dissonant, twelve-tone language would have prohibited its performance in a theater.

This should not be thought a miscalculation, but rather, as some critics of the time noted, as a challenge to the new medium. Schoenberg had seen in moving pictures a danger for opera and theater, and he protested against the vulgarity of the majority of films. But, as with many of his contemporaries, he also had high hopes for the possibilities film offered. In 1927, the year of the first full length talking film, The Jazz Singer, he envisioned film “as a completely new and independent instrument for innovative artistic expression.” Rejecting “marketability of wide mass appeal” as the sole factor determining production, and concentrating on “true and deep ideas and emotions,” Schoenberg believed film in Germany could rise to the level of its poetry and music.

Schoenberg’s particular interest in film can be linked to his strong visual imagination and the important role that movement, light, and color played in many of his works. The most obvious evidence of this was his talent as a painter, but even his instrumental works often have a visual component, in particular programmatic pieces like the “Colors” movement of his Five Orchestral Pieces, Op. 16, or the vivid imagery of the winter night in the Richard Dehmel poem that is represented programmatically in Transfigured Night, Op. 4. The most striking work in this regard is the opera Die glueckliche Hand (an untranslatable title, meaning literally “The Lucky Hand.”) In a 1928 lecture, Schoenberg explained the opera’s elaborate colored lighting and complex staging in terms of his vision of a new form of theater that he called “making music with the media of the stage.” As he was finishing the score in 1913 Schoenberg wrote to his publisher about the possibility of a film realization, with scenes to be designed by Kokoschka, Kandinsky, or Alfred Roller. He wrote that he was interested in film not only because it offered technical solutions to the problems of staging, but because of its potential to create “the utmost unreality … the opposite of what the cinema generally aspires to.”

The whole thing should have the effect (not of a dream) but of chords. Of music. It must never suggest symbols, or meaning, or thoughts, but simply the play of colors and forms. Just as music never drags a meaning around with it… so too this should simply be like sounds for the eye, and so far as I am concerned everyone is free to think or feel something similar to what he thinks or feels while hearing music.

If this imagined film was to be “sounds for the eye,” the Accompaniment to a Film Scene might be thought of “sights for the ear,” with the absent film as the best guarantee of “the utmost unreality.”

The eight-minute long film music is in three continuous sections following the programmatic subtitle, “threatening danger, fear, catastrophe,” (though significantly, the precise locations are not indicated in the score, and commentators disagree on where the third part begins.) Strings tremolo softly to begin the opening section. Fragmentary motives in the wind instruments coalesce into a regularly shaped melody in the oboe against a nervous string accompaniment. This theme is the first linear statement of the twelve tone row, which in various transformations makes up all the melodies and harmonies of the piece. A series of increasingly distorted variations on this melody make up the remainDer of the two minute long first section, with the idea of “threatening danger” suggested by the melody’s struggles to maintain its identity as the orchestra builds to a climax.

Beginning the approximately three minute second part, “Fear,” the melody dissolves entirely into complex repetitive figures moving at a much faster tempo. These figures gradually splinter into sharp gestures that surge through the orchestra, interrupted by powerful brass chords. As if to recapture the comparative calm of the first part, a variant of the opening melody reemerges in a strange dance-like passage, creating something of the effect of “whistling in the dark.” But this suggestion of stability dissolves, as the prominent piano part leads a massive crescendo to the shattering climax of the work.

The moment of “catastrophe” slowly subsides into the desolate third section as a variant of the melody asserts itself in the low strings against a solemn wind chorale. The mood of resignation in this most stylistically retrospective part of the piece is underscored by this melody’s resemblance to the “Muss es sein?” ["Must it be?"] theme of the last movement of Beethoven’s final string quartet, Op. 135. As the melody unfolds, the motive is presented in various transformations, mirroring what occurs in the Beethoven work. (Notably, Schoenberg discussed Op. 135 as a prototypical twelve-tone piece in his 1941 essay on “Composition with Twelve Tones.”) But whereas the Beethoven answers the question “Muss es sein?” with joyful affirmation, the Accompaniment to a Film Scene presents no such positive solution. Instead the work concludes with a distorted recollection of the opening measures, eerie timbral effects intensifying the mood of profound disquiet.

[Article taken from the American Symphony Orchestra website)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of performances of Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene, but I really enjoyed Boulez's and Rattle's performances with maybe the Rattle edging out Boulez since he's got the Berliners. What do my fellow Schoenbergians think of this work?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on March 23, 2014, 05:10:50 PM
...zzzZZZzzz... zzzZZZZzzzz... zzzzZZZZZzzz...

oh, what?, did you post something long and wordy?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2014, 05:13:15 PM
...zzzZZZzzz... zzzZZZZzzzz... zzzzZZZZZzzz...

oh, what?, did you post something long and wordy?

:)

Are you a fan of Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene, snyprrr?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2014, 05:24:11 PM
Nice article, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2014, 05:29:27 PM
Nice article, thanks for posting.

Happy to oblige, Karl. :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 23, 2014, 08:03:19 PM
There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of performances of Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene, but I really enjoyed Boulez's and Rattle's performances with maybe the Rattle edging out Boulez since he's got the Berliners. What do my fellow Schoenbergians think of this work?

I like it. I think it would be cool to program it as part of a concert devoted to film music, with the other pieces being from "real" films. The imaginary scenario would, I think, make it more palatable to audiences than his other serial works.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2014, 08:08:07 PM
I like it. I think it would be cool to program it as part of a concert devoted to film music, with the other pieces being from "real" films. The imaginary scenario would, I think, make it more palatable to audiences than his other serial works.

This would be very cool. I could see this work of Schoenberg's being performed while a projectionist runs some kind of bizarre black-and-white cartoon on a screen over top of the orchestra. 8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on April 08, 2014, 04:48:55 PM
An interesting video that I came across: Gershwin filming Schoenberg by Gershwin's tennis court. They played tennis together (too bad that this isn't in the video)!
http://www.youtube.com/v/8Cn1L_cgHPY
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ken B on April 08, 2014, 05:45:49 PM
An interesting video that I came across: Gershwin filming Schoenberg by Gershwin's tennis court. They played tennis together (too bad that this isn't in the video)!
http://www.youtube.com/v/8Cn1L_cgHPY
You don't like songs you say Nate. Not even Gershwin's?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 09:47:59 AM
Okay, I love the first chamber symphony. Absolutely love it. What's the second one like? How does it compare?

I know that I could easily go and listen on YouTube, but for some reason I'm curious to hear someone's opinion first. I guess I'm afraid that I'll be let down.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 17, 2014, 10:01:58 AM
I like it about as well, but it is something a bit different.  The second movement of the Op.38 is quite a phlegmatic affair, compared to the barnstorming Op.9.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 11:14:56 AM
Okay, I love the first chamber symphony. Absolutely love it. What's the second one like? How does it compare?

I know that I could easily go and listen on YouTube, but for some reason I'm curious to hear someone's opinion first. I guess I'm afraid that I'll be let down.
You might like Adams's CS.
Fwiw I like AS 1 more than AS 2.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 11:47:55 AM
I like it about as well, but it is something a bit different.  The second movement of the Op.38 is quite a phlegmatic affair, compared to the barnstorming Op.9.

You might like Adams's CS.
Fwiw I like AS 1 more than AS 2.
Thanks for the info guys! I'll keep the Adams CS on my radar.

So far I've heard
-"Five Pieces for Orchestra" -- left me unimpressed (sorry John :(), though the first one is kind of cool and gets stuck in my head. I'll keep coming back to it.
-"A Survivor from Warsaw" -- powerful and enjoyable, but not something I'd tune in to.
-"Piano Concerto" -- a little bit difficult to follow on first listen, but intriguing. Clearly 12-tone. I'll need to give it at least another listen before I can decide.
-"Verklarte Nacht" -- love it.
-"Chamber Symphony No. 1" -- favorite so far. I feel like this is the romantic idiom I've been looking for my whole (musical) life. That's how I felt about "VN" until I heard the "CS1"

Any other recommendations for orchestral works? The violin concerto? P&M? M&A? V4O? "Guerrelieder" is way too long for me and I suspect it of being too Mahlerian for me to really get in to. I'll try it eventually, in small pieces. And I've heard that the V4O is one of his thornier works. Any Schoenberg fans care to elaborate on these? Not to sound lazy (you know I'd be thrilled to help someone exploring Ligeti ;)).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 12:11:28 PM
Thanks for the info guys! I'll keep the Adams CS on my radar.

So far I've heard
-"Five Pieces for Orchestra" -- left me unimpressed (sorry John :(), though the first one is kind of cool and gets stuck in my head. I'll keep coming back to it.
-"A Survivor from Warsaw" -- powerful and enjoyable, but not something I'd tune in to.
-"Piano Concerto" -- a little bit difficult to follow on first listen, but intriguing. Clearly 12-tone. I'll need to give it at least another listen before I can decide.
-"Verklarte Nacht" -- love it.
-"Chamber Symphony No. 1" -- favorite so far. I feel like this is the romantic idiom I've been looking for my whole (musical) life. That's how I felt about "VN" until I heard the "CS1"

Any other recommendations for orchestral works? The violin concerto? P&M? M&A? V4O? "Guerrelieder" is way too long for me and I suspect it of being too Mahlerian for me to really get in to. I'll try it eventually, in small pieces. And I've heard that the V4O is one of his thornier works. Any Schoenberg fans care to elaborate on these? Not to sound lazy (you know I'd be thrilled to help someone exploring Ligeti ;)).
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 12:30:42 PM
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )
Actually, I really dislike Ligeti's cello concerto... And how I've tried!

The problem with large orchestral works is that they are often long, which makes sense from a practical point of view. What's the point of getting together hundreds of musicians just for 20 minutes?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on May 17, 2014, 03:23:15 PM
you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go.

hut hut
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 06:17:06 AM
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )
hut hut

I'll definitely re-listen to the PC. I listened to part of the 4th SQ and liked it alright...

I'm on my second listen of CS2 and I see what Karl means. It definitely isn't as emotionally-surcharged as the first. Still enjoyable, though.

What about P&M? Or the variations?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 06:20:27 AM
What about P&M?

Way too long for you. Avoid.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 02:25:06 AM
Way too long for you. Avoid.

Sarge
Lol, I'm getting a reputation here ;D.

I love the 3rd one (Summer Morning by a Lake: Chord-Colors) .. one of the greatest, hard not to appreciate the beautiful harmony here.
Thanks. I'll try and pay attention to this when I hear it next.

One thing I like about the first piece is what Simon Rattle calls "obsessive repetition" (if I recall correctly). Schoenberg divides the cello section so that half the cellists pluck notes and the other half bow the same notes which creates a cool "bell-tone" effect. You guys probably know what I'm talking about, but I'll post it. See 0:40 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2ZMnLENKVs
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on May 19, 2014, 04:21:38 AM
Pelleas und Melisande is one of the great spiritual exercises of all time!

If you value your soul at all, do not kiss the worms until you have heard it!   ???
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ken B on May 19, 2014, 04:52:59 AM
Pelleas und Melisande is one of the great spiritual exercises of all time!

If you value your soul at all, do not kiss the worms until you have heard it!   ???
I confess I have heard it only once. On my todo list "Debussy" and "French opera" are not an encouraging combination.  :) ::)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 05:16:00 AM
I confess I have heard it only once. On my todo list "Debussy" and "French opera" are not an encouraging combination.  :) ::)
No, this is Schoenberg's "Pelleas und Melisande", not Debussy's "Pelleas et Melisande" (or Faure's, for that matter).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ken B on May 19, 2014, 06:07:06 AM
No, this is Schoenberg's "Pelleas und Melisande", not Debussy's "Pelleas et Melisande" (or Faure's, for that matter).
Oh. Forget it. Too long for you.
 >:D

Actually well worth a listen but might not be your thing.

Faure's is a bit dull. Like Debussy his chamber and piano music is bteter than his orchestral.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2014, 06:18:37 AM

One thing I like about the first piece is what Simon Rattle calls "obsessive repetition" (if I recall correctly). Schoenberg divides the cello section so that half the cellists pluck notes and the other half bow the same notes which creates a cool "bell-tone" effect. You guys probably know what I'm talking about, but I'll post it. See 0:40 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2ZMnLENKVs

Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written!!! That's how much I love it. I love everything about it. I think it encapsulates everything I like about Schoenberg: the distortion, the grotesque, the bizarre, the eeriness, and the alternate reality. This work, within it's short duration, manages the full gamut of all these things.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on May 19, 2014, 06:36:48 AM
Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written!!! That's how much I love it. I love everything about it. I think it encapsulates everything I like about Schoenberg: the distortion, the grotesque, the bizarre, the eeriness, and the alternate reality. This work, within it's short duration, manages the full gamut of all these things.

Amen!   0:)

And yes, Pelleas und Melisande is a tone-poem which describes in an amazing way the psychology of the characters and the atmosphere of the play in c. 40 minutes, depending on the conductor.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: edward on May 19, 2014, 06:40:00 AM
You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on May 19, 2014, 08:08:53 AM
You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:



Those were the good old days, when classical recording companies had some imagination!  There was a similar grouping on Sony with Zubin Mehta, but without the Debussy.

One of my favorites, if you can find it:

(http://www.schoenberg.at/diskographie/images-c/chand308.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Marc on May 21, 2014, 01:21:09 PM
You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:



Yes!
Recommended.

(My tuppence worth.)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 28, 2014, 03:54:10 AM
In honor of the late Malcolm MacDonald, I was poking around his richly rewarding book on Schoenberg, and found again this discussion of the Act (III) left un-set:

Quote from: Malcolm MacDonald
On the whole, one does not regret that this Act was never set to music:  unlike the rest of the libretto, it seems to lack dramatic conviction.  There is no explanation of how Moses has gained the upper hand, nor why his arguments should triumph now when they failed before.  It reads just a little like the wish-fulfilment of a man who really knew that Aaron, whether right or wrong, inevitably gets the better of the arguments in this life.  And indeed as Schoenberg depicts him in music Aaron, for all his pliancy and shallowness, is not an unimpressive character:  he has quick wit, acts with decision, and is an artist with words.  The opera, in truth, is as much about the artist as the religious man—the struggle, and the paradox, involved in trying to give outward expression to any inner vision.  Schoenberg had to have something of Aaron in his own makeup to attempt the opera—for is not Moses und Aron itself an ‘image’ such as Moses would condemn—an ‘image’ which by its very existence betrays the idea it tries to convey?  If so, its incompleteness saves it:  for the final revelation of Moses’ triumph and unity with God is left unexpressed, and the torso that we have portrays the essence of the graspable, believable, human situation.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on September 27, 2014, 11:36:26 AM
I've been listening to Gould play the op 25 suite. There are three recordings at least, the live ones have more conventional tempos but all use lots and lots of expressive rubato.

And that leads to my point - is this music expressionist? Is it about expressing very strong emotions by unconventional means? Or is it something else?

I ask because although there are lots of excellent performances of the op 25 suite in terms of execution, Pollini, Chen, Henck etc are all emotionally dry compared to Gould. They're straighter rubato-wise. As if they don't see the music as particularly expressionist.

Another performer who seems particularly expressive and free in this suite is Peter Hill.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 27, 2014, 01:11:15 PM
Yes!  Hill is mighty good here.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2015, 09:14:58 AM
The combination of recent discussion of the piece, and my at last organizing two binsful of CD liner notes, motivated me to bring forth the following liner notes.  This is from the Sony CD of the sextet version played by the Juilliard Quartet with Walter Trampler and Yo-Yo Ma:

Quote
“… the depiction of musical ideas by a musical poet, a musical thinker …” On Schoenberg’s Op.4 and Op.45
Susanne Rode (tr. Stewart Spencer)

At first sight there appears to be nothing in common between Verklärte Nacht (Transfigured Night), the twenty-five-year-old Schoenberg’s late Romantic and lyrical op. 4 string sextet and his String Trio, op. 45, which is one of the most uncompromisingly dodecaphonic works of the composer’s later years.  Indeed, they seem to issue from totally antithetical worlds.  The sextet was written during a summer holiday which Schoenberg spent with Alexander von Zemlinsky in Payerbach in 1899, whereas the trio dates from the time of Schoenberg’s American exile, when he had just recovered from a near-fatal heart attack and was still haunted by the knowledge of having been so close to death.  But the contrast between the works indicates more than merely a difference in attendant biographical circumstances.

Verklärte Nacht sums up the feelings of fin-de-siècle Vienna, the product of a phse of exuberant excess in which Schoenberg took his cue from Detlev von Liliencron, Hugo von Hoffmansthal and Richard Dehmel – writers whom he later described as “the ‘Zeitgeist’s’ foremost representatives in lyric poetry” – and, fired by Zemlinsky, modelled himself on Wagner’s music with its chromaticism and colour.  The String Trio, by contrast, dates from a time when Schoenberg had recovered his own individual expressive urge and highly personal musical language.  Immediately after moving to America, in what must have been the worst weeks of his life, Schoenberg had seriously considered giving up composing.  When he did start writing again, it was with a curious ambivalence, composing both tonal works that harked back to traditional structural models and, at the same time, dodecaphonic pieces extremely advanced in terms of their structure, form and expression.  Therefore Verklärte Nacht and the String Trio are culminating points within the composer’s œuvre.

Their reception history is essentially marked by the same sense of opposition, with Verklärte Nacht bearing the palm as Schoenberg’s most widely played work.  The composer soon grew weary of repeatedly being asked why he had not continued to compose in the same style.  Somewhat provocatively, he used to reply that he was “not chosen” to go on “in the style” of Verklärte Nacht but that, basically, he was still writing exactly the same sort of music “as at the very beginning.”  The only difference, he went on, was that his later works were better, “more concentrated, more mature.”  In making the claim, Schoenberg draws a parallel between the two works and, at the same time, offers an implicit pointer to the way in which they should be interpreted.  Within the field of tension created by emotional expression and structure (a field of tension which remains valid for the whole of his œuvre), it is immediacy of expression which occupies the forefront of attention in Verklärte Nacht, while the String Trio is more concerned with structure.  In neither case, however, is the antinomial opposite robbed of its significance.

When Richard Dehmel’s collection of poems, Weib und Welt, was published in 1896, it immediately prompted widely differing reactions, which some readers dismissing it out of hand, while others – Schoenberg included – greeted the volume with immense enthusiasm.  Indeed, the appearance of the anthology was shortly followed by a Dehmel phase in Schoenberg’s lieder output.  Years later he wrote an appreciative letter to the poet, acknowledging the powerful influence which his poems had had on his musical development.  They had “obliged” him to seek “a new tone,” a tone which he had found, he went on, in the musical reflection of the feelings that Dehmel’s lines had stirred up within him.

It was from this collection that Schoenberg took the poem that forms the starting-point for Verklärte Nacht.  Its subject-matter, entirely characteristic of the poet, is sustained by the emotionalism of a new morality and by the idea of a love that transcends all conventions, and it inspired Schoenberg to produce his boldest harmonic writing to date with dense polyphonic textures and sounds that had never been heard before.  However much he followed the course of the poem’s development in this highly dramatic work and however much he allowed himself to be carried away by the compositional process, his already highly developed sense of architectural structure prevented the form from falling apart.  Like the poem, the sextet is divided into five sections, of which the second (the woman’s impassioned lament) and the fourth (the man’s reply, with its deep sense of understanding) are invested with especial weight.

Schoenberg regarded the work as programme music which “depicts and expresses” Dehmel’s poem, but he emphasized none the less that what he was concerned to depict was not so much action as “nature” and the “expression of human feelings.”  It was very much in this spirit that Egon Wellesz described the ending of Verklärte Nacht in his 1921 monograph on the composer:  “An infinitely delicate picture is conjured up […].  Now Nature is speaking;  with the purest, subtlest touch the music now paints the picture of the thicket standing alone in the clear light.  In a shimmering melody the happiness that the two people have found is reflected;  then it dies away, and in the highest harmonics this tone-picture comes to an end.”

The String Trio no longer breathes this same atmosphere.  The music starts up, violently, with expressive, often aggressive gestures, exploiting and exhausting every dynamic extreme and extending the already wide range of tone colours available to the three string players by dint of rapid shifts between glassy harmonics, pizzicato passages, col legno bowing (both battuto and tratto) and sul ponticello effects.  Like Verklärte Nacht the String Trio falls into five sections, with three “Parts” divided by two “Episodes.”  Although the final part ends with a clear but drastically compressed recapitulation of earlier material, Hans Heinz Stuckenschmidt is quite right to comment that everything here is “worlds away” from “all semblance of any complacent ‘Once Upon a Time’.”
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2015, 09:19:53 AM
These notes are Robert Craft’s (and the composer’s own) from the booklet for Vol. VI of the original Koch series:

Quote

Transfigured Night for String Orchestra (1943 arr.) [Robt Craft]

The string-sextet original of this most widely known of Schoenberg’s creations was completed on the first day of December 1899.  It was first performed in Vienna on March 18, 1902 by the Rosè Quartet, augmented by a violist and cellist from the Vienna Philharmonic.  Fifteen years later the composer transcribed the music for string orchestra, with contrabass.  The 1943 revision of this 1917 score incorporates many improvements, such as the addition pf metronome marks, which seemed to indicate that brisker tempos were desired than those at which the piece was customarily performed.  The full string ensemble provided opportunities to exploit contrasts of volume and colors far beyond the possibilities of the solo sextet, as well as to revert, in one passage, to the original combination, which sounds to advantage in the context of the full string orchestra.  Other small combinations provide relief and contrast as well, such as the solo octet at bar 162, and the solo nonet at bar 165 (together with the full second-violin section).  Several times, too, the solo violin is accompanied by the full string orchestra, in concerto style.  The dynamic ranges are obviously much greater in the full string than in the solo ensemble, and the individual lines in the densely polyphonic music attain more salience.  Dynamics, articulations, and tempi – retards and accelerations – are readjusted in the 1943 score, and in a few places, bars 14, 16, 102-103, 119-130, and 161-166, the contrabass doubling has been eliminated.  The most astonishing effect in the full string version occurs at bars 133-134, where the basses, playing tremolando fortissimo, sound like kettledrums.

Transfigured Night was the first opus by Schoenberg to enter the standard repertory.  In April 1942, choreographed by Anthony Tudor, it became a popular ballet under the title Pillar of Fire.

Program Notes by the Composer (1950)

At the end of the nineteenth century the leading representatives of the Zeitgeist in lyric poetry were Detlev von Liliencron, Hugo von Hoffmansthal, and Richard Dehmel.  In music, by contrast, many young composers in the aftermath of Brahms’s death followed the model of Richard Strauss and composed program music.  This explains the origins of Transfigured Night:  it is an example of program music designed to depict and express Richard Dehmel’s poem, which may be summarized as follows:
 
While walking through a park one clear, cold moonlit night, a woman, in a dramatic outburst, tells a man of a tragedy.  She had married someone she did not love, and was unhappy and lonely in this marriage.  She remained faithful, however, and having obeyed her maternal instinct, is now carrying a child by another man, whom she does not love.  She had even considered that in fulfilling her duty towards the demands of Nature she had acted in a praiseworthy fashion.  The musical motif expressing the Woman’s feelings of guilt and self-recrimination is elaborated in a passage that builds to a climax.  Filled with despair, she now walks beside the man she loves and fears that his judgment will destroy her utterly.  But “a man’s voice” speaks, a man who magnanimity is as sublime as his love.  With that, the first half of the work comes to an end on E-flat minor, of which only the B-flat remains as a pedal point, forming a transition and providing a link with its most extreme opposite, the key of D major.  Harmonics ornamented with muted ascending scales evoke the beauty of the moonlight, and a subsidiary theme is introduced over an iridescent accompaniment, a theme that soon develops into a duet between violins and cellos.  This section reflects the mood of the man, whose love, in harmony with the glitter and gleam of Nature, is capable of denying the tragic situation:  “May the child you’ve conceived not burden your soul.”  After the duet has reached a climax, it is combined with a new theme by means of a transitional passage.  Its melody expresses the warmth of love, that “glow of inmost warmth” that passes “from you to me, and from me to you,” and is followed by the return of earlier themes that are repeated and reworked.  Finally, this leads into yet another new theme reflecting the man’s dignified resolve:  his warmth “will transfigure the stranger’s child, and you’ll bear me that child, as if begot by me.”  A crescendo leads to a climax and a repetition of the man’s theme from the beginning of the second part.  A long coda brings the work to an end.  Its material draws on themes from the preceding parts.  All are reworked, as though to glorify the wonders of Nature, which have transformed this night of tragedy into a transfigured night.

My piece may perhaps have differed from other illustrative works for the reason that it does not describe a particular action or drama but is limited to depicting Nature and expressing human feelings.  It would appear that, as a result of this stance, my piece acquired qualities that satisfy listeners even if they do not know what is being described;  in other words, it offers the possibility of being judged as “pure” music.  For that reason, it may be possible to overlook the poem, though many aspects of it deserve recognition on account of its highly poetical description of the feelings that are aroused by the beauty of Nature and on account of its remarkable moral attitude in its treatment of a distressingly difficult problem.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2016, 04:14:14 AM
Over six months since someone has written here specifically about Arnold?!

So eine Schande!

Yesterday I came across a Celibidache concert from 1974 with the Variations for Orchestra!  "Celi" was conducting a group called the Swiss Festival Orchestra.  Some of the comments show that people were unable to believe that Celibidache was actually the conductor.

https://www.youtube.com/v/2PUT1dLHDag
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2016, 05:09:25 AM
Over six months since someone has written here specifically about Arnold?!

So eine Schande!

Yesterday I came across a Celibidache concert from 1974 with the Variations for Orchestra!  "Celi" was conducting a group called the Swiss Festival Orchestra.  Some of the comments show that people were unable to believe that Celibidache was actually the conductor.

https://www.youtube.com/v/2PUT1dLHDag

I forgot to mention: the work is taken at a pretty good speed!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 21, 2016, 05:10:46 AM
I am looking forward to mashing this link shortly!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: Concert with Pelleas und Melisande
Post by: Cato on January 28, 2016, 09:02:01 AM
My novel-in-progress has a section where the main character, a mediocre man desperately striving to stay that way, attends a concert (under very strange circumstances) with Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande.

I thought the description of the man's reaction might be of interest: he tried to become acquainted with the work through a recording, but gave up after the first 5 minutes or so.

(The man writes of this after his metamorphosis out of mediocrity.)

Quote
My eyes skimmed through the notes for the Schoenberg work.  They told me basically the same thing that the booklet for the recording had related: the music described the story of two brothers in love with the same woman.  The older brother kills the younger one, and causes the strange girl Melisande to die of sorrow.  Instead of a three-hour opera with all kinds of operatic bansheeing, Schoenberg had decided on a forty-minute tone-poem with no singing at all.  Obviously a great improvement over that opera idea!  Schoenberg, according to the notes, “meticulously set about to describe the three characters, and is especially successful in evoking the mysterious Melisande, who seems to have been doomed to cause fratricide and ruin by her inability to reveal anything about herself.”  The author went on to claim that the work is also a symphony, with the four parts one expects in such a work, and that one can listen to it on that basis without knowing the story which inspired the composer.

And so the conductor reappeared, and wiped his hands and forehead with a cloth, as if he were already highly nervous about what he was about to unleash.  Finally the dark music began, and again my ears heard something quite different from the recording!  The musical lines were clear and meshed into sounds of a doomed future, rather than swampiness.  After I thought the orchestra was about to explode, everything subsided, and then, after some lovely sounding music, everything turned black, and with a short, increasingly portentous amount of threat-filled growling in the brass, a volcanic violence shook the hall, and I actually felt a chill in my body.  I know, I know: a cliché, but that’s actually what I felt!  But afterward, all was calm and lovely again, as if people were dancing and going about their lives with a gigantic, unnoticed monster about to burst upward from the earth beneath them.  In fact, happiness surrounded by the most Cain-filled rage continued throughout the music, with those terrifying, murderous chords coming back in the middle and cracking the rafters at an even louder volume with manic, scurrying horror in the string section.  And then back came the music of the beautiful, mad, and maddening Melisande.  But things again turned manic, if not maniacal, and suddenly the bloody violence returned, this time worse than ever, splattering the audience with the insanity of a killing in a family.  One could almost feel the murderer sinking to his knees in horror after sacrificing the younger brother to the god of erotic jealousy.  Oddly, the music returned a little to the strange opening, and to Melisande’s melodies, as if trying to ignore the slaying, as if trying to hide the anguish, the despair, and the incomprehension of a brother killing a brother, as if unable to understand why Melisande gradually started to die.  And yet all of these denials and mysteries nevertheless rose up at the end, refusing to be ignored, and shook a collective fist at the gods.  Then everything dissipated, and what was left?  Silence, complete silence, until the obviously exhausted conductor turned around.  From the balcony I sensed that he was not just physically exhausted.  For he had summoned up music  of a malign, infinite, and insoluble riddle mocking our incomprehension of Life and its enigmas of emotion and thought.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: Gurrelieder in Scotland in August
Post by: Cato on June 19, 2016, 03:25:52 PM
Are any members in Scotland or England (or Wales) planning on going to hear Schoenberg's Gurrelieder ?

Tickets are still available!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e9nzc8 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e9nzc8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: Gurrelieder in Scotland in August
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 19, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
Are any members in Scotland or England (or Wales) planning on going to hear Schoenberg's Gurrelieder ?

Tickets are still available!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e9nzc8 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e9nzc8)
Nice!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Rons_talking on June 21, 2016, 01:19:27 PM
Over six months since someone has written here specifically about Arnold?!

So eine Schande!

Yesterday I came across a Celibidache concert from 1974 with the Variations for Orchestra!  "Celi" was conducting a group called the Swiss Festival Orchestra.  Some of the comments show that people were unable to believe that Celibidache was actually the conductor.

https://www.youtube.com/v/2PUT1dLHDag

This work has always been one of my top three Schoenberg works (the recording seems a bit tentitive) and Variations helped make me a "modern " music monster, learning music history and theory in reverse order.  I wish I could hear this piece live...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
This work has always been one of my top three Schoenberg works (the recording seems a bit tentative) and Variations helped make me a "modern " music monster, learning music history and theory in reverse order.  I wish I could hear this piece live...

Which performance of Pelleas do you have?

I came across this comment today in a Wall Street Journal review for a new book called Why We Love Music by a certain John Powell:

Quote
Mr. Powell’s democratic, scientific approach presumes that all music has an equal claim on human affection, that no musical tradition can claim primacy or innate superiority. If so, “posh” classical music fans can no longer look down their noses at pop. In that light, I was perplexed that Mr. Powell had such unkind things to say about some of the tougher kinds of modern music, such as the serial works of Arnold Schoenberg, in which all 12 notes of the Western scale are used one by one in a rigid sequence. Strict serialism, he tells us, is “bonkers,” a “musical backwater” of work that sounds “pretty much as if it had been composed by a carthorse—although perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on carthorses.”

After inviting us to expand our tastes, to explore new music, not just what we liked as teenagers, it’s odd that Mr. Powell’s curiosity and openness has such limits. Even in his discussion of the powers of film music, he doesn’t seem to notice how effective “difficult” modern music is in many dramatic contexts.

See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-adele-makes-us-cry-1467151364 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-adele-makes-us-cry-1467151364)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on June 29, 2016, 12:14:28 PM
Quote
...Strict serialism, he tells us, is “bonkers,” a “musical backwater” of work that sounds “pretty much as if it had been composed by a carthorse—although perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on carthorses.”
Human stupidity knows no limits... >:(
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 29, 2016, 12:37:41 PM
Human stupidity knows no limits... >:(

Glad you're finding no fault in the carthorses!  8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 29, 2016, 12:38:56 PM
Strict serialism, he tells us, is “bonkers,” a “musical backwater” of work that sounds “pretty much as if it had been composed by a carthorse—although perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on carthorses.”

But it would be so, so wrong for anyone to make such snide comments about pop music!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:36:36 PM
I like some 12-tone music, but just because I dislike a good bit of it, doesn't give me the right to mouth off about it. I just don't get it, but those who do get this music, I salute. That's where the line should stop, but, no, you have know-it-all, wiser-than-thou people like this John Powell character telling us we're basically wrong for using our ears and for being able to understand the aesthetic value, the intellectual stimulus and emotional gravitas of 12-tone music.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on July 01, 2016, 01:47:04 AM
I like some 12-tone music, but just because I dislike a good bit of it, doesn't give me the right to mouth off about it. I just don't get it, but those who do get this music, I salute. That's where the line should stop, but, no, you have know-it-all, wiser-than-thou people like this John Powell character telling us we're basically wrong for using our ears and for being able to understand the aesthetic value, the intellectual stimulus and emotional gravitas of 12-tone music.

"You are making a mistake!  You really can NOT understand that music!  You really can NOT like that music!  It is impossible!"

 
Strict serialism, he tells us, is “bonkers,” a “musical backwater” of work that sounds “pretty much as if it had been composed by a carthorse—although perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on carthorses.”

But it would be so, so wrong for anyone to make such snide comments about pop music!

Which "John Powell," according to the reviewer, tries to lionize through a certain musical egalitarianism.

A ditty propped up on 3 or 4 strummed chords may charm us, and may qualify as "good music" in Duke Ellington's famous law that only two kinds of music exist, good and bad.  On the other hand, the ditty cannot be compared to e.g. Spem in Alium by Tallis , which - we must admit - probably does not appeal to as many ears as the lollipop la-la.

I suspect that, to many such ears, the Spem in Alium might sound as if a carthorse had composed it!  0:)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2016, 05:47:21 PM
"You are making a mistake!  You really can NOT understand that music!  You really can NOT like that music!  It is impossible!"

Yeah, I never should have listened to Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra as this started everything! Of course, I blame Berg's Violin Concerto, too! ;D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
Well, the Op.16 pieces pre-date serialism, of course.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2016, 06:07:45 PM
Well, the Op.16 pieces pre-date serialism, of course.

True, it was written during his free atonality period, but it certainly got under my skin. :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2016, 06:14:35 PM
That's what great music does!
Title: Pierrot Lunaire from Israeli Chamber Project
Post by: Brewski on July 02, 2016, 07:10:54 AM
From last March, here is Pierrot Lunaire, performed by soprano Hila Baggio and the Israeli Chamber Project. This performance was recorded in Israel, but they also did it in New York, at the Morgan Library, and I thought it was one of the best of the year.

http://www.youtube.com/v/eH7OnSOHBWg

--Bruce

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2016, 09:31:53 AM
Pelleas und Melisande, Op.5 ... how rich and voluptuous.  And what a magnificent orchestra for it:
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on July 05, 2016, 03:29:56 PM
Pelleas und Melisande, Op.5 ... how rich and voluptuous.  And what a magnificent orchestra for it:

I feel asleep the last time I took herbie for a spin. That, and 'Transfigured Night' on the same programme will do it Don't try and tell me you haven't crashed to some "brilliant" music lately...















sure...whatever you say :laugh:
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2016, 04:19:11 PM
Most notably of late, some Bruckner.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2016, 12:33:44 AM
I feel asleep the last time I took herbie for a spin. That, and 'Transfigured Night' on the same programme will do it Don't try and tell me you haven't crashed to some "brilliant" music lately...

Why, only last night I was lulled to rest by the sweet discords of Erwartung.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2016, 05:40:58 AM
Why, only last night I was lulled to rest by the sweet discords of Erwartung.

Incidentally, according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwartung), Erwartung “was the first live opera shown on Times Square in New York City in a production by Robin Rhode in November 2015.”
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2016, 06:03:27 AM
Yeah, I never should have listened to Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra as this started everything! Of course, I blame Berg's Violin Concerto, too! ;D

One of the greatest - if not THE greatest performance of this I have ever heard - was deleted soon after it was issued (or at least so it seemed):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XQ4TFR3JL.jpg)

Also at the top is the old Mercury Antal Dorati recording.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2016, 06:44:21 AM
One of the greatest - if not THE greatest performance of this I have ever heard - was deleted soon after it was issued (or at least so it seemed):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XQ4TFR3JL.jpg)

That's a great performance for sure, but not a favorite. My favorite is Boulez on Sony however. I think his icy detachment and x-ray vision works wonders in the work.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2016, 06:47:38 AM
Pelleas und Melisande, Op.5 ... how rich and voluptuous.  And what a magnificent orchestra for it:

And excellent recording for sure! I should revisit it.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: GioCar on August 28, 2016, 12:03:04 AM
I haven't listened to the Variations for Orchestra op.31 for a big while, and I didn't remember how good they are...

What's really amazing is that they are so musical, emotional, despite the rigorous construction. And the vast Finale where the tone row is fragmented in all those small pieces having different sounds and colours, and then recombined as a glittering kaleidoscope is really overwhelming.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Scion7 on August 28, 2016, 12:16:29 AM
^ Because Schoenberg was an inspired composer!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2016, 09:57:56 AM
The Op. 8 № 2 definitely makes me think of Till Eulenspiegel.  Great stuff.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on October 21, 2016, 10:43:13 AM
The Op. 8 № 2 definitely makes me think of Till Eulenspiegel.  Great stuff.

I can't be the only one who hears Don Juan behind the first theme of the Chamber Symphony Op. 9, either...Schoenberg's clear debt to and admiration for Strauss must have made it difficult to accept that the older composer disliked the direction his music had taken.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2016, 11:14:30 PM
Can someone help me? I want to find a translation of Moses und Aaron on line, but so far no joy!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2016, 12:03:19 AM
I think his icy detachment and x-ray vision works wonders in the work.

Thanks for mentioning this, I agree with you. Up to now I'd only heard Van Beinum I think.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:23:43 AM
Can someone help me? I want to find a translation of Moses und Aaron on line, but so far no joy!

It seems to be under some kind of copyright restriction. I couldn't find anything either. :(

Thanks for mentioning this, I agree with you. Up to now I'd only heard Van Beinum I think.

Glad you enjoyed the Boulez performance. Gielen's on Wergo is also excellent.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:38:08 AM
The Schoenberg Center (http://www.schoenberg.at/index.php/en/typography-2/moses-und-aron) provides a free eBook libretto, although I am not sure if it includes an English translation.

It doesn't.
Title: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 23, 2016, 08:41:46 AM
I can see the point ... if one has made the effort to translate the libretto, that is one's work (with the permission of the copyright-holder, if there be one, of the source text).

Incidentally, this is what makes me smile about the Bible in copyright ....

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: GioCar on October 23, 2016, 09:42:19 AM
Can someone help me? I want to find a translation of Moses und Aaron on line, but so far no joy!

Here's an Italian translation, if this may help
http://www.dicoseunpo.it/S_files/Moses_Aron.pdf
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on October 23, 2016, 10:30:56 AM
...or a Spanish one: http://www.kareol.es/obras/moisesyaaron/acto1.htm

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2016, 10:40:19 AM
Thanks everyone for trying. In the end I found a scan of the libretto in Boulez's recording. German, English, French and Italian.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: SharpEleventh on November 25, 2016, 04:23:11 PM
What do GMGers think of Five Piano Pieces Op. 23?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on November 25, 2016, 05:18:15 PM
What do GMGers think of Five Piano Pieces Op. 23?

No. 3 is my favorite of them.  I love the way the theme is broken up and splintered across the registers of the piano, and also those remarkable chords circling around a fifth axis at the end.

No. 5 has its historical value, and it's charming enough.

I prefer the Suite, personally, or the earlier piano pieces, but the set is intriguing overall.  It's one of the last Schoenberg works I finally "got."
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 01:51:51 AM
If you can hear Lubimov's op 23, it's worth catching I think.


As far as romantic goes, in some performances (Rittner for example) the chromaticism of the first one has made me think of Scriabin, but not in Lubimov's hands. The 5th is a Waltz -- why do you say it's historically important, Mahlerian?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on November 26, 2016, 06:11:05 AM
If you can hear Lubimov's op 23, it's worth catching I think.


As far as romantic goes, in some performances (Rittner for example) the chromaticism of the first one has made me think of Scriabin, but not in Lubimov's hands. The 5th is a Waltz -- why do you say it's historically important, Mahlerian?

It's the first piece fully based on a 12-tone row.  The other pieces of Op. 23, like most of Op. 24, use a kind of serial technique on other kinds of rows, mixed with some freely composed passages in the case of 24.  Op. 25 is the first full work based on a single 12-tone row.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 01:51:33 PM
It's the first piece fully based on a 12-tone row.  The other pieces of Op. 23, like most of Op. 24, use a kind of serial technique on other kinds of rows, mixed with some freely composed passages in the case of 24.  Op. 25 is the first full work based on a single 12-tone row.

Thanks for that, it could be useful for a quiz.

Anyway I listened to something interesting today, a recording of Op 23 by Steuermann billed as "1951 Dial Masters" - very good, very fresh and urgent and spontaneous and passionate and emotionally intense, and that "expressionist" approach seems really to work well with the music. This thing

(http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.143702544/images/500x500.jpg)

It made me think of much later pieces like the trio, just because of the intensity and rapid changes in expressed emotion that Steuermann gets out of the music in op 23.

Did Schoenberg say anything about what Steuermann did?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: James on November 26, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
Gould's Schoenberg is a must, he loved Arnie and it really shows. Maximum musicality, feel and clarity as always. His Berg and Webern are also great.

Pollini's DG recording is a cooler more distant view but very nice. Technically brilliant. Love his Berg & Webern also.

Messiaen specialist Peter Hill also did a fine recording for Naxos of the complete 2nd Viennese School piano solos.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: James on November 26, 2016, 07:13:36 PM
Agree 100%.

 :o
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on November 26, 2016, 09:22:16 PM
Did Schoenberg say anything about what Steuermann did?

I can't recall any specific comment, but I believe Steuermann was a student of his?  There are examples of him praising specific performances, such as the Kolisch Quartet's recordings of his string quartets or the Hollywood Quartet's Verklarte Nacht.

He was at any rate one of the early champions of Schoenberg's music, and he tended to be appreciative of performers of his work, so long as they imparted sufficient expression into the music.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: James on November 26, 2016, 10:02:59 PM
Boulez more than any other conductor I can think of really brought a tremendous amount of understanding and clarity to the 2nd Viennese School's complex orchestral works. He put that stuff on the map and really led the way. Before him it was quite a muddled affair.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 12:07:17 AM
Agree 100%.

He's a bit slow in op 23/iii
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 12:09:19 AM

He was at any rate one of the early champions of Schoenberg's music, and he tended to be appreciative of performers of his work, so long as they imparted sufficient expression into the music.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 01:06:35 AM
I can't recall any specific comment, but I believe Steuermann was a student of his? 

According to Malcolm MacDonald, Steuermann was one of Schoenberg's pupils and had come recommended by Busoni, which is interesting. The fact that he premiered so much of Schoenberg's music, and that he continued to work in the Schoenberg archive after the composer's death,  suggests that they had a good working relationship I think.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ahinton on November 27, 2016, 01:17:18 AM
According to Malcolm MacDonald, Steuermann was one of Schoenberg's pupils and had come recommended by Busoni, which is interesting. The fact that he premiered so much of Schoenberg's music, and that he continued to work in the Schoenberg archive after the composer's death,  suggests that they had a good working relationship I think.
Indeed - and for someone who once programmed Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica, a piano arrangement of Schönberg's First Chamber Symphony and Reger's Variations and Fugue on a theme of Bach in a single recital, he must either have been an overly courageous fool or a very fine pianist indeed; I once studied with one of his piano pupils (who had also studied composition briefly with Webern) and, from what he told me about Steuermann, it was clear that he was very much the latter.

Malcolm MacDonald was one of the finest British writers on music and a most reliable and insightful critic as well; it is most sad that he is no longer with us. A Schönbergian through and through, his volumes on other composers as diverse as Varèse, Brian, Stevenson and Brahms are essential reading and likely to remain so. I remember once telling him that I'd just heard Hilary Hahn's then new recording of Schönberg's Violin Concerto and been persuaded for the first time by her performance that the concerto is actually a piece of music; watching the steam rushing from the ears of this usually placid and agreeable fellow was a joy and, of course, we had a good laugh about it!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 09:18:54 AM
(http://is1.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/80/51/91/80519157-ea8d-888a-cc08-8eb884080b7a/source/1200x630bf.jpg)

Eureka!

The Koldofsky Trio gave the West Coast Premier of op 45 and according to Sabine Feist's book on Schoenberg in America, the composer was pleased with the way they played it. Their style is noticeably more reflective and less dramatic than what we have become used to from Juilliard, La Salle etc. I like what they do a lot - as with Steuermann, the composer's taste and my taste seem to be more or less in alignment. Once again, HIP is good.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ahinton on November 27, 2016, 09:38:22 AM
The Koldofsky Trio gave the West Coast Premier of op 45 and according to Sabine Feist's book on Schoenberg in America, the composer was pleased with the way the played it.
Feisst, methinks (a pedant speaks) - but yes indeed.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: SharpEleventh on November 27, 2016, 11:43:50 AM
Nice to hear various viewpoints on opus 23. The last movement is from technical point of view somewhat unique not only for being the first 12 tone piece but also for using the tone row only in its untransposed prime form. The weird thing that happened for me is that it sounded like completely random piano banging for several listenings then suddenly it just clicked and sounded fairly sensible to my ears. Usually with Schoenberg that happens more gradually.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on January 06, 2017, 12:21:47 PM

Why Schoenberg?
Schoenberg's relevance and meaning to listeners in 2017
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/why-schoenberg/)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 11:42:46 AM

Opus 1: Zwei Gesänge
(https://aquicknoteblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/opus-11.png?w=1462)
Two Songs Combining Brahmsian Rhetoric with Wagnerian Chromaticism
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/opus-1-zwei-gesange-1898/)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on January 08, 2017, 12:18:03 PM

Why Schoenberg?
Schoenberg's relevance and meaning to listeners in 2017
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/why-schoenberg/)

Many thanks for your efforts on behalf of the original Ahr-nohld! ;)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 12:19:09 PM
Many thanks for your efforts on behalf of the original Ahr-nohld! ;)

Oh, he'll be back.  ;)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on January 15, 2017, 10:10:07 AM

Schoenberg Opus 2: Vier Lieder
(https://aquicknoteblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/opus-2.png?w=900)
Four Songs Using Subtle Shades of Harmonic Color
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/opus-2-vier-lieder-18991900/)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 01, 2017, 07:45:40 AM

Opus 3: Sechs Lieder
(https://aquicknoteblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/opus-3.png)
In Bold Defiance of Criticism
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/02/01/opus-3-sechs-lieder-1899-1903/)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 21, 2017, 10:16:55 PM
A wonderful article by pianist Pina Napolitano; her experiences with discovering the beauty and the power of Schoenberg's music are much like my own.

"an invincible combination of intellect and passion, discipline and expressivity"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/feb/21/music-arnold-schoenberg-do-not-approach-with-caution-pina-napolitano
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: GioCar on February 22, 2017, 08:47:12 AM
^^^

Yes, an excellent article indeed.

Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: pjme on February 23, 2017, 02:20:07 AM
"The sentiments it conveys are the eternal sentiments of the human condition – the same as expressed in Romantic music – but the language is different"

Indeed an excellent article.

P.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2017, 07:41:52 AM
I don't see why someone that likes late (especially) romantic music would struggle with Schoenberg. If someone likes Brahms, Wagner, Berlioz and Mahler, why would they struggle with Schoenberg;

An example, which I have related elsewhere some time ago: When Georg Solti was rehearsing Moses und Aron for a recording, he was not getting the sound he wanted from the orchestra (Chicago Symphony, I believe).

According to the story I read, he began telling the orchestra to "think Brahms" while they played, and things began to go the way he wanted.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Monsieur Croche on February 23, 2017, 01:00:58 PM
Something sprung to mind from the beginning alone is "all you need to do is open your mind"

I wish I knew what it meant really....  I don't see why someone that likes late (especially) romantic music would struggle with Schoenberg. If someone likes Brahms, Wagner, Berlioz and Mahler, why would they struggle with Schoenberg; Arnold being a late romantic composer himself, less of a modernist than his students and less than his peers (like Stravinsky or Ives).

I'm nearly two full generations older than you (1 = 33 yrs), but when I was your age (younger, even), my music teachers and many of my student peers at the time felt the same as you do, i.e. had no trouble  or "difficulty" hearing this music as the late epoch manifestation of the (Germanic) romantic style and expression.

One very reasonable and real reason that someone might not care for it is a more general one... it is that some have, in general, no personal taste for the Fin de siècle / early 20th century expressionist style.  I'm certain this is a possibility because there are enough who find Mahler's vocabulary, and also works like R. Strauss' Salome and Elektra, as challenging or 'difficult' as they find Schoenberg, etc.  Other than that, all those who protest about the loss or absence of tonality really get me wondering just how much they actually hear of what makes up and is going on in later and late romantic era music to which they do readily and happily listen.

Add to the kerfuffle this known and well-acknowledged psychological dynamic: 
Like it or not (and consciously or not), many a person who really enjoys classical does equate their involvement and ability to appreciate it with some level of personal intellectual prowess; more than a few also equate their appreciation and consumption of 'high culture' as having to do with their social status and what they think gets / has them socially esteemed.  Place someone with those personal criteria as to their self-worth and social standing whom also feels 'they don't get' modern or atonal music amid a group of fellow cultural consumers who seem to be 'in the know' and have ready access to this one arena which the individual visiting that room feels they have no handle on at all, and they can and will feel excluded, self-conscious that they are (by their own standard, not the standard in the room) "intellectually and socially inferior."  This triggers resentment (a dynamic well-explained via Maslow's pyramid diagram of the hierarchy of needs.)  The resentment is what triggers a good deal of the hue and cry rally of accusations of elitism (with 'academic elite' often tossed in) against those proponents who love and are advocates of this music; the hue and cry against also brings on those various defensive (underlying = self-defensive) arguments about the more readily accessible and populist styles as superior to the more modern and atonal. 

We've seen it here -- proportionate to other fora, actually just a wee bit; you and I have seen it in spades on at least one other forum.  "At least this [retro conservative tonal] composer is writing music I can like," or "composers should write more like the music I can like and understand." -- that taken to the whack Nth degree of a statement like composing more in the manner of John Williams' Suite from Star Wars -- or in the style of that retro-pastiche Mozart/Schubert/Mendelssohn music being produced by a current prodigy darling -- is / should be the real future of contemporary classical music. [!!!!!]

Recall that so many of this kind of the more contentious and anti reactions are (wrongly) linked with peoples self-conceits about their self-worth and social prestige, and there you have some of the more bitter and angry comments against this music.  Without, a more normal reaction, as it is to so many other eras or composers people don't particularly care for, would be a simple "I don't care for it," and that would be that!

It is too easy to say, "Just open your ears, bro."  While I agree with that as the actual solution, it is much easier said than it is for many to do.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: listener on February 24, 2017, 07:40:49 PM
His arrangement of Funiculi-Funiculà is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1V-Dxto74M&app=desktop
We heard the piano 4hands transcription of The Barber of Seville Overture this week with Pelléas.. in Vancouver.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 10:27:57 AM
Some of the earliest performances seem to bring out the continuity with late romantic music -narrative, aim, memorable melody - and they seem to be very successful. An example is the Koldofsky Trio. More recently the Diotima Quartet have taken this approach I would say.

I'm not sure you'd ever guess the connection to late romanticism from Arditti or Juilliard.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2017, 12:35:06 AM
Is it just me or does the fourth quartet sound almost completely uncharacteristic of Schoenberg? It sounds a lot like Bartok to my ears and lacks the gorgeous lyricism and fragmentary development he's known for, despite that it's one of my favorite Schoenberg works.

The Comodo seems not at all like anything by Bartok to me. And rather in the late Schoenberg mould.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on March 25, 2017, 11:31:50 AM
The chord ending the Violin Concerto is, like that at the end of the Piano Concerto, a big expanded C major chord.  More famously, Op. 42 ends with a major seventh chord in first inversion (which makes all of the notes consonant against the bass), but the Violin Concerto also ends with a C major seventh sonority, adding in the notes of D major (alternatively, a C major chord with an added quartal chord of F#-B-E-A-D with the factors rearranged).  It's actually broken up as C-G dyad in the bass, D-E-B in middle range, and F#-A in high treble, thus mimicking the arrangement of the overtone series more or less closely:
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 19, 2017, 07:25:49 AM
Has anyone seen these lectures by Bernstein on Schoenberg? Fascinating stuff. You will never see Schoenberg the same way again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2017, 07:38:38 AM
Has anyone seen these lectures by Bernstein on Schoenberg? Fascinating stuff. You will never see Schoenberg the same way again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg)

Yep, I’ve seen them, but one longs for a better quality upload from someone else.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on April 19, 2017, 07:46:27 AM
Has anyone seen these lectures by Bernstein on Schoenberg? Fascinating stuff. You will never see Schoenberg the same way again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg)

I have.  They're frustrating and still hold to the false idea of atonality as representing a meaningful category distinct from tonality.  He doesn't go into enough detail on the actual music, and too much about theory.  Schoenberg's music should be approached like any other great composer's, but for some reason it's treated as distinct.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on April 19, 2017, 02:33:36 PM

I actually want to see Beethoven or Mozart for instance, approached like that because it is honestly irrelevant nonsense. Analyzers don't seem to care about how Beethoven inverts a melody, creates a canon, draws from the dominant scale (using pitch sets etc) and completely overlook the function of the music that you actually HEAR, lol  :laugh:

Have you checked the articles by professors in the academic journals?   All kinds of "irrelevant nonsense" there!!! 0:)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 19, 2017, 03:43:10 PM
Have you checked the articles by professors in the academic journals?   All kinds of "irrelevant nonsense" there!!! 0:)
Or just look at part 3 (or maybe Part 4) around the 4 or 5 minute mark where Lenny talks about serialism (or something similar) in the fugue of Bach, in the finale of Beethoven's 9th, or in Don Giovanni.

Anyway Alien's comment is a bit puzzling from someone who seems to have a sound musical education. When I was in school we spend an entire semester on Beethoven just analyzing stuff like that.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2017, 05:56:59 PM
I have.  They're frustrating and still hold to the false idea of atonality as representing a meaningful category distinct from tonality.  He doesn't go into enough detail on the actual music, and too much about theory.  Schoenberg's music should be approached like any other great composer's, but for some reason it's treated as distinct.

To the bolded text, still beating that dead horse I see.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: kishnevi on April 19, 2017, 06:39:00 PM
Sorry, what I mean is:

When Beethoven does it - He's a genius
but when Schoenberg (or insert serialist) - he's just a dry academic creating exercises nobody is perceived to actually listen to etc.

It's a major double standard I'm trying to get over. Same with Stockhausen for example, who was trying to achieve a Wagnerian sense of wonderment at these huge cosmological philosophies he was trying to convey and the root of the human experience, in artistic terms of course.

BOTH, still using age old composition techniques, using hierarchies, structures/forms just like every other composer, blah blah

I'm not really in the mood to discuss it today but whatever  ::)



Well I'll clarify again, the whole "academic" side of music exists as much in Beethoven or Bach as it does Schoenberg, Gershwin, Stockhausen, Babbitt or popular music, IT always exists but for some reason it is given way too much importance in 20th century composers (especially serialists and 12 tone composers) for some reason, when it is not important to the music itself.

Why would you study how he inverts tone rows etc instead of the way the music actually functions, on a systematic basis? like in Beethoven. Some notes take center stage, some notes stay in the back et all

To my ears, Stockhausen completely failed at doing what he said he was doing. (Note the reference to ears, and the subjectivity therein implied.)
Perhaps Schoenberg too failed.

(BTW, in my admittedly limited understanding, wasn't one of the aims of serialism the goal of having no particular note or group of notes take center stage?)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on April 19, 2017, 07:11:16 PM
To the bolded text, still beating that dead horse I see.

It's true, though.

If I need to bring it up, it's because people still make comments like this:

(BTW, in my admittedly limited understanding, wasn't one of the aims of serialism the goal of having no particular note or group of notes take center stage?)

No.

One of the aims of serialism is to distance the music from traditional triadic functional harmony and diatonic rhetoric.  It isn't meant to be in a key, but if the point was to avoid any kind of pitch emphasis whatsoever, none of the Second Viennese School composers got the memo, because their music always emphasizes pitches and groups of pitches.

I don't know how anyone got the idea that their music doesn't emphasize any specific pitches, because it's disproven just by listening to any of it, let alone by looking at the score.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2017, 07:22:24 PM
The term atonality will be around after we’re all dead and gone, so Mahlerian you can continue to bang your head against the wall.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on April 19, 2017, 07:24:50 PM
The term atonality will be around after we’re all dead and gone, so Mahlerian you can continue to bang your head against the wall.

I'm not arguing with the term, I'm saying that the concept is useless.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2017, 07:28:11 PM
I'm not arguing with the term, I'm saying that the concept is useless.

It’s all terms to me. I either dig something or I don’t. Whether it’s with or without a key is of no importance to me.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 20, 2017, 03:30:42 AM

(BTW, in my admittedly limited understanding, wasn't one of the aims of serialism the goal of having no particular note or group of notes take center stage?)

No.


I'd say, in at least one sense, yes. Or at least, probably.  It grew out of the rich chromaticism wherewith composers were weakening the sense of a tonal center. I don't know that Schoenberg ever specified thus, but he and Webern typically favored source sets whose sequence of pitches did not trend to [suggesting a center]. However, the series for Berg's Violin Concerto is arguably three tetrads, each of which is essentially a "tonal artifact"; and I don't believe Schoenberg ever felt that Berg was "doing it wrong," in terms of applying the method.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on April 20, 2017, 05:38:25 AM
No.



I'd say, in at least one sense, yes. Or at least, probably.  It grew out of the rich chromaticism wherewith composers were weakening the sense of a tonal center. I don't know that Schoenberg ever specified thus, but he and Webern typically favored source sets whose sequence of pitches did not trend to [suggesting a center]. However, the series for Berg's Violin Concerto is arguably three tetrads, each of which is essentially a "tonal artifact"; and I don't believe Schoenberg ever felt that Berg was "doing it wrong," in terms of applying the method.

Like I said, they used the method in such a way so as not to suggest a diatonic key (which is what Schoenberg would have understood by the term tonal center), but not to avoid emphasizing given pitches.  As for traditional harmonies, there is a row that Schoenberg used in the Suite Op. 29 and the Ode to Napoleon that allowed him to produce lots of triads.  Granted, he often superimposes multiple triads, but they're all over both pieces.  He said in his writings that he and his students did tend to avoid conventional harmonic formations, but felt that this was no requirement of the style and that future generations would synthesize the old methods and the new.

If Schoenberg wanted to avoid suggesting any kind of center for his pieces, what would the purpose have been in, in the Wind Quintet, focusing so much on E-flat and B-flat?  There's no requirement in the 12-tone method that says that one should use the untransposed rows more than transposed ones.  The piece ends on a unison E-flat, which is not a dissonance by anyone's standards.  I'm not suggesting that the piece is in a key, because that has so many other requirements relating to functional harmony and voice leading and so forth, but rather that Schoenberg's use of specific pitches does emphasize certain of them over others.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 20, 2017, 06:49:33 AM
Brahms with wrong notes
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: millionrainbows on May 06, 2017, 11:13:56 AM
Yes, Schoenberg uses thematic, melodic, motivic elements, but these have more of an intervallic identity of relations, like 'shapes', rather than emphasizing certain specific pitch identities by name. If you start claiming pitch identity, by naming notes like Eb, then you are getting into tonality.

Even if a certain pitch identity like Eb is emphasized, all that will do is create a singularity, a localized and momentary pitch station in a heavily chromatic environment. It has no overriding or structural tonal significance.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2017, 02:37:11 PM
I've got wood... let's build a pyre!!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 06, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
I've got wood... let's build a pyre!!

You sure it's wood, and not particle board?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on June 05, 2017, 09:27:47 AM
I have just come across one of the greatest performances I have ever heard of Pelleas und Melisande !!!

From the Concertgebouw Orchestra nearly 30 years ago, with Christoph von Dohnanyi conducting!

It just appeared today on YouTube!  One of the commenters writes that it is probably from a large collection of Concertgebouw CD's with live performances.

https://www.youtube.com/v/P0LVDX6OIW8



Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2017, 09:59:54 AM
Can't be bad!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2017, 08:23:19 AM
“Schoenberg remains; those who cannot understand him come and go.”
—Chas. Wuorinen
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on September 14, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
“Schoenberg remains; those who cannot understand him come and go.”
—Chas. Wuorinen

Puh-leez ::)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen ATHERTON BOX
Post by: snyprrr on September 14, 2017, 01:57:11 PM
Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet


I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2017, 05:33:28 AM
I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time.

Puh-leez ::)

8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen ATHERTON BOX
Post by: Mahlerian on September 15, 2017, 02:39:46 PM
Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet


I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...

Schoenberg's rhythms aren't nearly so traditional as the old criticism would imply.  His later works tended not to use odd divisions of the pulse, but the actual interplay between the various lines was often extremely complex.  So many tunes...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: kyjo on September 15, 2017, 03:12:02 PM
Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2017, 04:53:47 PM
Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.
Aye, great fun.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2017, 08:42:32 AM
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on November 28, 2017, 08:47:50 AM
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.

I don't think it's my favorite Schoenberg work, but probably in my top 5, and definitely in my top 10.  With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2017, 10:05:15 AM
[...] With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on November 28, 2017, 05:51:34 PM
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.


There are few endings as searing as Moses, pounding the ground in frustration, unable to communicate his internal, personal, fiery vision of Divinity directly to the fickle, skeptical, stubborn Hebrews.  I have always thought that the - musically - similar ending to another unfinished, religious work, Die Jakobsleiter must  have been echoing in Schoenberg's mind, during the composition of the opera.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on November 29, 2017, 12:34:05 AM
There are few endings as searing as Moses, pounding the ground in frustration, unable to communicate his internal, personal, fiery vision of Divinity directly to the fickle, skeptical, stubborn Hebrews.  I have always thought that the - musically - similar ending to another unfinished, religious work, Die Jakobsleiter must  have been echoing in Schoenberg's mind, during the composition of the opera.
"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.

I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".

Then I saw the piece fully staged, in a very insightful production by Romeo Castellucci (imported from the Paris Opéra), and conducted by Lothar Koenings. Again, very gripping, and as much a Gesamtkunstwerk as one can imagine.

Here the famous live golden calf (or bull, in this case) from that prodcution:
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/10/21/1445439430554/4a161de0-cd82-4fd6-9ac7-1d05b61598f9-2060x1236.jpeg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=4cab1bd0d87145a6f91ce8541fecfdfc)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 29, 2017, 04:46:01 AM
"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.

I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".

Then I saw the piece fully staged, in a very insightful production by Romeo Castellucci (imported from the Paris Opéra), and conducted by Lothar Koenings. Again, very gripping, and as much a Gesamtkunstwerk as one can imagine.

Here the famous live golden calf (or bull, in this case) from that prodcution:
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/10/21/1445439430554/4a161de0-cd82-4fd6-9ac7-1d05b61598f9-2060x1236.jpeg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=4cab1bd0d87145a6f91ce8541fecfdfc)


Cool.

The amusing aspect to my experience this week is, I really do not know what kept me from tuning in to the opera, all these years.  It is not as if the musical language is any barrier (to me) – I love the idiom.

And, I mean, why November 2017, after all?

No matter:  I’m digging it, now.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on December 01, 2017, 02:59:07 AM

"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.


Amen!  0:) 


I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".


And because the ending of Act II is so powerful and true, I believe that Schoenberg's mind (unconscious or otherwise) sensed that fact, which is why Act III never happened musically.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 01, 2017, 04:38:29 AM
Like Jacob and the Angel, Schoenberg wrestled to find the harmony between Art and Idea.  Perhaps, yes, his inner artist resisted setting the brief third Act, as possibly too Idea-ish.

I mentioned (on the WAYLT thread, I think) that I feel inspired to set the libretto from the third Act.  Mahlerian informs us that Zoltán Kocsis thought of it first—which I am glad to learn.  I suspect that Kocsis has done it the Right Way, i.e., in the Master’s style, and employing the series-complex of the first two Acts.  I’m especially glad to suppose that this has been done, because I want simply to take the libretto as a text (not as a continuation of the opera), and set it my own way (however I discover that way to be, when I am engaged in the process).  Since I am thinking of rather a chamber music environment, my piece is not any proposal for a “fulfilment” of l’opéra entier.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Maestro267 on December 10, 2017, 05:46:59 AM
I've finally gotten round to ordering a recording of Pelleas und Melisande, c/w Verklärte Nacht. Berlin PO conducted by Karajan. Looking forward to hearing these pieces at last.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2017, 06:16:23 AM
Like Jacob and the Angel, Schoenberg wrestled to find the harmony between Art and Idea.  Perhaps, yes, his inner artist resisted setting the brief third Act, as possibly too Idea-ish.

I mentioned (on the WAYLT thread, I think) that I feel inspired to set the libretto from the third Act.  Mahlerian informs us that Zoltán Kocsis thought of it first—which I am glad to learn.  I suspect that Kocsis has done it the Right Way, i.e., in the Master’s style, and employing the series-complex of the first two Acts.  I’m especially glad to suppose that this has been done, because I want simply to take the libretto as a text (not as a continuation of the opera), and set it my own way (however I discover that way to be, when I am engaged in the process).  Since I am thinking of rather a chamber music environment, my piece is not any proposal for a “fulfilment” of l’opéra entier.

Tremendous! Good luck and I hope to get to hear it sometime.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 10:53:56 AM
I've finally gotten round to ordering a recording of Pelleas und Melisande, c/w Verklärte Nacht. Berlin PO conducted by Karajan. Looking forward to hearing these pieces at last.

Great stuff. A favorite recording of mine for sure. I suppose this is the recording you’re talking about?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yxSMkgNNV3g/Ub5iovm4HSI/AAAAAAAAKkA/VTyIuWdxgPE/s1600/Front.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Maestro267 on December 12, 2017, 06:00:08 AM
^ That's correct, yes.

It's interesting to note that Pelleas und Melisande was premiered at the same concert as another favourite symphonic poem of mine, Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2017, 09:15:45 AM


It's interesting to note that Pelleas und Melisande was premiered at the same concert as another favourite symphonic poem of mine, Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.

Oh, the good old days!  Imagine a concert today with TWO premieres by living composers! 

I suppose it might be happening now and then somewhere.  Do any orchestras make it a habit of having at least one premiere for every concert?  I recall that being the goal of some conductors, but...

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 12, 2017, 09:40:25 AM
Oh, the good old days!  Imagine a concert today with TWO premieres by living composers!

Not both pieces of such scale (and the conductor is now in deserved disgrace) but . . . Jas Levine did indeed lead the BSO in a concert which featured the première of both Jn Harbison’s Darkbloom Overture and Chas Wuorinen’s Fourth Piano Concerto (or was it the Eighth Symphony? . . .)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on December 12, 2017, 10:12:20 AM
Not both pieces of such scale (and the conductor is now in deserved disgrace) but . . . Jas Levine did indeed lead the BSO in a concert which featured the première of both Jn Harbison’s Darkbloom Overture and Chas Wuorinen’s Fourth Piano Concerto (or was it the Eighth Symphony? . . .)

Whatever negative things one can say about Levine's character, he did show an admirable commitment to American music.  I first encountered Elliott Carter under his baton.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 12, 2017, 10:15:42 AM
Whatever negative things one can say about Levine's character, he did show an admirable commitment to American music.  I first encountered Elliott Carter under his baton.

And, even while he honored Ozawa's long-term "new-music monogamy" with John Harbison, Levine brought us Carter and Wuorinen, too, as observed.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: kishnevi on December 12, 2017, 06:12:39 PM
Not both pieces of such scale (and the conductor is now in deserved disgrace) but . . . Jas Levine did indeed lead the BSO in a concert which featured the première of both Jn Harbison’s Darkbloom Overture and Chas Wuorinen’s Fourth Piano Concerto (or was it the Eighth Symphony? . . .)

Actually, both the concerto and the symphony. You do have this one, don't you?



ETA
Ah, I read that too hastily. The BSO did premiere both, but I have no idea which one might have been paired with the Harbison
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 25, 2018, 10:21:35 AM
I was wondering, if one of the big label conglomerates were to produce a complete Schoenberg edition (unlikely, but perhaps for the 150th birthday coming up in a few years), how many discs would it fill?  The answer as far as I can tell (excluding most fragments) is 31.

Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Schoenberg Complete Set (31 discs)

Arrangements of Other Composers' Works (4 discs):
1   - Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2   - Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Reger: Romantic Suite, J. Strauss: Waltzes
3   - Bach: Chorale Preludes, Prelude and Fugue in E-flat, Brahms: Piano Quintet in G minor
4   - Cello Concerto after Monn, String Quartet Concerto after Handel

Chamber Works for mixed ensembles (2 discs):
1   - Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (original version)
2   - Serenade Op. 24, Suite Op. 29, Three Pieces for Chamber Ensemble, Christmas Music

Chamber Works for Strings (4 discs):
1   - Juvenilia, String Quartet in D major
2   - String Quartet No. 1 in D minor, String Quartet No. 2 in F# minor
3   - String Quartet No. 3, String Quartet No. 4
4   - Verklarte Nacht (sextet), String Trio, Phantasy for violin with piano accompaniment

Choral Works (2 discs):
1   - Friede auf Erden, Deutsche Volkslieder (1st version), Canons for chorus, Four Pieces Op. 27, Three Satires Op. 28
2   - Six Pieces Op. 35, Kol Nidre Op. 39, A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46, Deutsche Volkslieder (2nd version), Choral Works Op. 50a, 50b, 50c

Lieder (5 discs):
1-4 - Lieder for voice and piano
5    - Lieder for voice and orchestra Op. 8 and Op. 22, Herzgewachse, Lied der Waldtaube  (chamber version)

Melodrama (1 disc):
1   - Pierrot lunaire, Ode to Napoleon (chamber version)

Keyboard Music (1 disc):
1   - Works for solo piano, Variations on a Recitative for organ

Opera (4 discs):
1   - Erwartung, Der gluckliche Hand
2   - Von heute auf morgen
3/4 - Moses und Aron

Oratorio (3 discs):
1/2 - Gurrelieder
3    - Die Jakobsleiter

Orchestral Works (5 discs)
1   - Verklarte Nacht (string orchestra), String Quartet No. 2 (string orchestra)
2   - Pelleas und Melisande, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (full orchestra), Chamber Symphony No. 2
3   - Five Pieces Op. 16, Variations for orchestra, Accompaniment to a Cinema Scene, Ode to Napoleon (string orchestra version)
4   - Suite in G for Strings, Prelude to Genesis Op. 44, Theme and Variations Op. 43a
5   - Violin Concerto Op. 36, Piano Concerto Op. 42, Theme and Variations Op. 43b
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 12:26:49 PM
Be sure to do a better job of separating the atonal works from the tonal works next time. >:D ;D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 25, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
Be sure to do a better job of separating the atonal works from the tonal works next time. >:D ;D

If I ever hear an atonal Schoenberg work, I'll be sure to do that.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
If I ever hear an atonal Schoenberg work, I'll be sure to do that.

Sounds like a plan! ;)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 01:52:57 PM
But seriously, I think you did a good job with your organization, Mahlerian. I do often wonder why a Schoenberg complete edition hasn’t been offered. Now’s as good as a time as any I would think. I’d definitely buy it even if I own most of the performances, because of the sheer value of it.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 25, 2018, 04:47:28 PM
But seriously, I think you did a good job with your organization, Mahlerian. I do often wonder why a Schoenberg complete edition hasn’t been offered. Now’s as good as a time as any I would think. I’d definitely buy it even if I own most of the performances, because of the sheer value of it.

Thanks.  Well, we can only hope that the 150th birthday in 2024 is seen as enough of an occasion to commemorate.  My sense is that Schoenberg's music is being performed more regularly today in Europe than it was before, although it's still something of a rarity on US orchestral programs.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 04:53:21 PM
Perhaps the Schoenberg Complete Edition would feature cover art painted by the main himself. For example:

(http://toddtarantino.com/hum/schoenbergbehind.jpg)

This image could be wrapped around the entire box set, with perhaps a portrait on the back like this:

(https://news.usc.edu/files/2015/02/in_foto_a._schoenberg___concessa_da_arnold_schonberg_center_vienna_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 25, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
Thanks.  Well, we can only hope that the 150th birthday in 2024 is seen as enough of an occasion to commemorate.  My sense is that Schoenberg's music is being performed more regularly today in Europe than it was before, although it's still something of a rarity on US orchestral programs.

Schoenberg is quite uncontroversial in Australia. A couple of years ago the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra did a series of concerts where they performed all of Beethoven's piano concertos alongside pieces by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. An enormous success that they ended up programming more (Schoenberg and Berg at least) in following seasons. Webern has better chamber music representation in this country I think.

I can imagine there would be some amazing publicity surrounding a Complete Schoenberg Edition of recordings if he were still controversial. In the end, it will probably end up being as popular as a Complete Debussy Edition with people commenting online stuff like 'why release all those pieces as well if few people care about them? Oh well, but I will get it anyway because of the stuff I like already.'
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 25, 2018, 05:04:40 PM
Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 05:44:20 PM
Schoenberg is quite uncontroversial in Australia. A couple of years ago the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra did a series of concerts where they performed all of Beethoven's piano concertos alongside pieces by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. An enormous success that they ended up programming more (Schoenberg and Berg at least) in following seasons. Webern has better chamber music representation in this country I think.

I can imagine there would be some amazing publicity surrounding a Complete Schoenberg Edition of recordings if he were still controversial. In the end, it will probably end up being as popular as a Complete Debussy Edition with people commenting online stuff like 'why release all those pieces as well if few people care about them? Oh well, but I will get it anyway because of the stuff I like already.'

Very cool to hear how Schoenberg and co. is doing on the Australian classical scene. I say it’s high time! Concert goers need to get their ears out of the gutter. Schoenberg’s music isn’t controversial and given what has occurred after his time, his music shows strong ties with the past and actually reveals that he never actually broke with tradition as he claimed he had to do because it’s the expression found in his music and Berg’s and Webern’s that makes them Romantic in musical character. Obviously, their music is different, but not so different to where you can’t hear what’s happening within the music.

Mahlerian has done a far better job of defending of Schoenberg than I could ever do, but, at the end of the day, this music speaks for itself and if a listener puts aside their preconceived notions about what music can do, then I think they, who perhaps is bit apprehensive about the Second Viennese School in general, can appreciate, and eventually, love, what these composers have done.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2018, 05:47:35 PM
Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group

I’ll leave it to Mahlerian, he’s much more versed in Schoenberg than I am. ;)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 25, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group

You really think there is something here they are not aware of?

Sony has a big chunk of it in the Schoenberg-Boulez box. Probably they'd be in a good position to flesh it out with chamber music and the trifles. I personally wouldn't think the transcriptions are so essential to it. Interesting the Boulez managed to convince two different record labels to undertake a complete Alban Berg edition, but not Schoenberg. I wonder if it was Boulez or the record labels types who thought Schoenberg wasn't worth the same effort.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 25, 2018, 07:52:08 PM
You really think there is something here they are not aware of?

Sony has a big chunk of it in the Schoenberg-Boulez box. Probably they'd be in a good position to flesh it out with chamber music and the trifles. I personally wouldn't think the transcriptions are so essential to it. Interesting the Boulez managed to convince two different record labels to undertake a complete Alban Berg edition, but not Schoenberg. I wonder if it was Boulez or the record labels types who thought Schoenberg wasn't worth the same effort.

The two complete Webern editions, you mean? Honestly, the complete Webern editions would not be as expensive to make. I like Boulez's Schoenberg box, but I wouldn't mind seeing a properly complete edition with a variety of more recent recordings as well. I'm sure heaps of other people would be interested in one too.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 25, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
The two complete Webern editions, you mean? Honestly, the complete Webern editions would not be as expensive to make. I like Boulez's Schoenberg box, but I wouldn't mind seeing a properly complete edition with a variety of more recent recordings as well. I'm sure heaps of other people would be interested in one too.

Yes, of course, Webern.  True enough, that's only 6 CDs. I wouldn't be too surprised to see a complete Schoenberg, but it will be from a label like Sony that has all the major works in the catalog and only has to record a few odds and ends. Probably Universal (or whatever it is called now) also have enough Schoenberg in the back catalog to make it feasible.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on February 26, 2018, 02:33:02 AM
I was wondering, if one of the big label conglomerates were to produce a complete Schoenberg edition (unlikely, but perhaps for the 150th birthday coming up in a few years), how many discs would it fill?  The answer as far as I can tell (excluding most fragments) is 31.

Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Schoenberg Complete Set (31 discs)

Arrangements of Other Composers' Works (4 discs):
1   - Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2   - Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Reger: Romantic Suite, J. Strauss: Waltzes
3   - Bach: Chorale Preludes, Prelude and Fugue in E-flat, Brahms: Piano Quintet in G minor
4   - Cello Concerto after Monn, String Quartet Concerto after Handel

Chamber Works for mixed ensembles (2 discs):
1   - Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (original version)
2   - Serenade Op. 24, Suite Op. 29, Three Pieces for Chamber Ensemble, Christmas Music

Chamber Works for Strings (4 discs):
1   - Juvenilia, String Quartet in D major
2   - String Quartet No. 1 in D minor, String Quartet No. 2 in F# minor
3   - String Quartet No. 3, String Quartet No. 4
4   - Verklarte Nacht (sextet), String Trio, Phantasy for violin with piano accompaniment

Choral Works (2 discs):
1   - Friede auf Erden, Deutsche Volkslieder (1st version), Canons for chorus, Four Pieces Op. 27, Three Satires Op. 28
2   - Six Pieces Op. 35, Kol Nidre Op. 39, A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46, Deutsche Volkslieder (2nd version), Choral Works Op. 50a, 50b, 50c

Lieder (5 discs):
1-4 - Lieder for voice and piano
5    - Lieder for voice and orchestra Op. 8 and Op. 22, Herzgewachse, Lied der Waldtaube  (chamber version)

Melodrama (1 disc):
1   - Pierrot lunaire, Ode to Napoleon (chamber version)

Keyboard Music (1 disc):
1   - Works for solo piano, Variations on a Recitative for organ

Opera (4 discs):
1   - Erwartung, Der gluckliche Hand
2   - Von heute auf morgen
3/4 - Moses und Aron

Oratorio (3 discs):
1/2 - Gurrelieder
3    - Die Jakobsleiter

Orchestral Works (5 discs)
1   - Verklarte Nacht (string orchestra), String Quartet No. 2 (string orchestra)
2   - Pelleas und Melisande, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (full orchestra), Chamber Symphony No. 2
3   - Five Pieces Op. 16, Variations for orchestra, Accompaniment to a Cinema Scene, Ode to Napoleon (string orchestra version)
4   - Suite in G for Strings, Prelude to Genesis Op. 44, Theme and Variations Op. 43a
5   - Violin Concerto Op. 36, Piano Concerto Op. 42, Theme and Variations Op. 43b
Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 26, 2018, 04:45:43 AM
Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Best regards,



One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones....... ;D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on February 26, 2018, 06:20:46 AM
I was wondering, if one of the big label conglomerates were to produce a complete Schoenberg edition (unlikely, but perhaps for the 150th birthday coming up in a few years), how many discs would it fill?  The answer as far as I can tell (excluding most fragments) is 31.

Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Schoenberg Complete Set (31 discs)

Arrangements of Other Composers' Works (4 discs):
1   - Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2   - Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Reger: Romantic Suite, J. Strauss: Waltzes
3   - Bach: Chorale Preludes, Prelude and Fugue in E-flat, Brahms: Piano Quintet in G minor
4   - Cello Concerto after Monn, String Quartet Concerto after Handel

Chamber Works for mixed ensembles (2 discs):
1   - Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (original version)
2   - Serenade Op. 24, Suite Op. 29, Three Pieces for Chamber Ensemble, Christmas Music

Chamber Works for Strings (4 discs):
1   - Juvenilia, String Quartet in D major
2   - String Quartet No. 1 in D minor, String Quartet No. 2 in F# minor
3   - String Quartet No. 3, String Quartet No. 4
4   - Verklarte Nacht (sextet), String Trio, Phantasy for violin with piano accompaniment

Choral Works (2 discs):
1   - Friede auf Erden, Deutsche Volkslieder (1st version), Canons for chorus, Four Pieces Op. 27, Three Satires Op. 28
2   - Six Pieces Op. 35, Kol Nidre Op. 39, A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46, Deutsche Volkslieder (2nd version), Choral Works Op. 50a, 50b, 50c

Lieder (5 discs):
1-4 - Lieder for voice and piano
5    - Lieder for voice and orchestra Op. 8 and Op. 22, Herzgewachse, Lied der Waldtaube  (chamber version)

Melodrama (1 disc):
1   - Pierrot lunaire, Ode to Napoleon (chamber version)

Keyboard Music (1 disc):
1   - Works for solo piano, Variations on a Recitative for organ

Opera (4 discs):
1   - Erwartung, Der gluckliche Hand
2   - Von heute auf morgen
3/4 - Moses und Aron

Oratorio (3 discs):
1/2 - Gurrelieder
3    - Die Jakobsleiter

Orchestral Works (5 discs)
1   - Verklarte Nacht (string orchestra), String Quartet No. 2 (string orchestra)
2   - Pelleas und Melisande, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (full orchestra), Chamber Symphony No. 2
3   - Five Pieces Op. 16, Variations for orchestra, Accompaniment to a Cinema Scene, Ode to Napoleon (string orchestra version)
4   - Suite in G for Strings, Prelude to Genesis Op. 44, Theme and Variations Op. 43a
5   - Violin Concerto Op. 36, Piano Concerto Op. 42, Theme and Variations Op. 43b

A cursory glance at the list in Malcolm MacDonald's book suggests that there are some early pieces not included, the piano duets from 1896 for example. And some unfinished music maybe -- the organ sonata of 1941. And lots of arrangements (Reger, Johann Strauss, Schubert . . . ) And some canons: I would love to hear the endless canon for string quartet composed in 1948 for Thomas Mann.

The book is well worth having I think.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 26, 2018, 06:48:20 AM
One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones....... ;D

Curiously, Die eiserne Brigade was on an early Rattle (IIRC) CD . . . .
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 07:22:45 AM
Curiously, Die eiserne Brigade was on an early Rattle (IIRC) CD . . . .

I’m not sure about Rattle, but it’s on this Atherton recording:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8mttrd5L.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 26, 2018, 07:26:42 AM
I’m not sure about Rattle, but it’s on this Atherton recording:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8mttrd5L.jpg)

That's what I meant, and misremembered, thanks, John.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 07:28:09 AM
That's what I meant, and misremembered, thanks, John.

Pleasure, Karl. 8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on February 26, 2018, 08:52:13 AM
One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones....... ;D
Obscure? Obscure you say? Anyone who has not felt the need to explore Die eiserne Brigade is useless as a fan of Schoenberg's music!  ;D

I got to know these pieces (Funiculì, the Brigade, the waltz arrangements) on an LP of Reinbert de Leeuw and his Schönberg Ensemble, which AFAIK was never transferred to CD.

Curiously, I heard the Rosen aus dem Süden transcription live recently here in Madrid (Cambreling conducting the Klangforum Wien) and it seemed endless to me (even if it's only ca. 5 minutes long). The low point of an otherwise superb concert (Ravel's Mallarmé settings, Stravinsky's Japanese Lyrics, and Pierrot Lunaire--all with a wonderful Christine Schäfer)...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 08:59:39 AM
Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

Thank you!

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Ah, I knew I was forgetting a few things.  There are some juvenilia I didn't bother to list, like the Notturno for strings and harp or Ei du Lutte for choir, but shamefully Die eiserne Brigade slipped my mind entirely.

A cursory glance at the list in Malcolm MacDonald's book suggests that there are some early pieces not included, the piano duets from 1896 for example. And some unfinished music maybe -- the organ sonata of 1941. And lots of arrangements (Reger, Johann Strauss, Schubert . . . ) And some canons: I would love to hear the endless canon for string quartet composed in 1948 for Thomas Mann.

The book is well worth having I think.

I mentioned the Strauss arrangements.  The Reger I did mention, but remember that there have been some Society for Private Performances arrangements mistakenly attributed to Schoenberg (like Busoni's Berceuse Elegaique).
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 03:28:41 PM
I’d love to have been a fly on the wall when Schoenberg’s music was performed in Vienna in the 1910s and I’m thinking here of the Skandalkonzert of March 31, 1913.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Watschenkonzert_Karikatur_in_Die_Zeit_vom_6._April_1913.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 04:00:22 PM
I’d love to have been a fly on the wall when Schoenberg’s music was performed in Vienna in the 1910s and I’m thinking here of the Skandalkonzert of March 31, 1913.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Watschenkonzert_Karikatur_in_Die_Zeit_vom_6._April_1913.jpg)

I recreated the program on the 100th anniversary of that concert.  The Zemlinsky Maeterlinck songs are the only item that isn't pretty close to standard repertoire today.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 04:04:59 PM
I recreated the program on the 100th anniversary of that concert.  The Zemlinsky Maeterlinck songs are the only item that isn't pretty close to standard repertoire today.

The Zemlinsky would probably be the only thing on the program I wouldn’t listen to. I just don’t find him to be an interesting composer despite the fact that he was Schoenberg’s teacher.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 26, 2018, 04:19:23 PM
From what I gather from a few web pages I came across, the audience started booing and heckling, and the concert promotor got into an argument with an audience member and punched him. Seems like the sort of thing that could only happen nowadays if someones cell phone went off during the concert....
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 04:23:21 PM
From what I gather from a few web pages I came across, the audience started booing and heckling, and the concert promotor got into an argument with an audience member and punched him. Seems like the sort of thing that could only happen nowadays if someones cell phone went off during the concert....

It got so bad that the police had to break up the concert and Mahler's Kindertotenlieder were never performed.

The moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZeC6eQuyjzM

You can be sure that the chord was not played nearly so accurately, nor the vocal sung so well, at that concert.  And the work was not performed again until the 1950s.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 26, 2018, 05:09:45 PM
The moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:

I think you are buying into an absurd narrative, that the audience, sitting there, would hear a 12-tone chord and explode in rage like fans at an English football match. I think it is much more likely that various members of the orchestra told all their friends, "you won't believe the sh** that that degenerate Schoenberg has us playing. You have to come out and show that stuck-up ass that we won't stand for it."
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 26, 2018, 05:33:08 PM
Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Would Book of the Hanging Gardens, Op.15 fall under the lieder section?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 06:09:54 PM
It got so bad that the police had to break up the concert and Mahler's Kindertotenlieder were never performed.

The moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZeC6eQuyjzM

You can be sure that the chord was not played nearly so accurately, nor the vocal sung so well, at that concert.  And the work was not performed again until the 1950s.

How do you know it was that chord and not something else that had been played or even spoken? Do you have proof that it’s that Berg chord that riled up the audience or is all of this just an assumption on your part?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 06:20:45 PM
I think you are buying into an absurd narrative, that the audience, sitting there, would hear a 12-tone chord and explode in rage like fans at an English football match. I think it is much more likely that various members of the orchestra told all their friends, "you won't believe the sh** that that degenerate Schoenberg has us playing. You have to come out and show that stuck-up ass that we won't stand for it."

Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

How do you know it was that chord and not something else that had been played or even spoken? Do you have proof that it’s that Berg chord that riled up the audience or all of this just an assumption on your part?

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
Quote
Alban Berg, one of Schoenberg's pupils, somehow persuaded a singer to immolate himself in singing his songs.  They demanded a range of something like three octaves, including a desperate falsetto and a downward progression which no singer on earth could have made to sound like anything other than a wail.  'Over the border of the All,' he sang, 'you look meditatingly out,' and a few wheezes and groans from the orchestra accompanied the announcement.  The following notes could not be heard for laughter.  Schoenberg, who conducted, turned around and said: 'I beg those who cannot remain quiet to leave the hall.'  Then he began all over again--'Over the borders of the All.'  Somehow he got through it.

Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 06:29:51 PM
Would Book of the Hanging Gardens, Op.15 fall under the lieder section?

Yes, it would.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 06:33:03 PM
Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Thanks for the feedback my Second Viennese School brother. 8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 26, 2018, 09:09:18 PM

Quote
Alban Berg, one of Schoenberg's pupils, somehow persuaded a singer to immolate himself in singing his songs.  They demanded a range of something like three octaves, including a desperate falsetto and a downward progression which no singer on earth could have made to sound like anything other than a wail.  'Over the border of the All,' he sang, 'you look meditatingly out,' and a few wheezes and groans from the orchestra accompanied the announcement.  The following notes could not be heard for laughter.  Schoenberg, who conducted, turned around and said: 'I beg those who cannot remain quiet to leave the hall.'  Then he began all over again--'Over the borders of the All.'  Somehow he got through it.

Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Sounds like the "disturbance" was just uproarious laughter until Schoenberg's concerto promotor slugged someone.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 09:19:55 PM
It still amazes me to this day that this music from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern still hasn’t quite had the breakthrough it deserves. There are still people who view this music as something that belongs to a horror film soundtrack. I personally find much of the music from these three composers to be quite beautiful, haunting, and intensely passionate. I do often wonder what progress has been made in classical listeners’ general outlook of these three composers? Does it still remain something of an elusive music that people simply haven’t developed a taste for? Is it a general lack of exposure? What do you guys think? And please, let’s be respectful of not only the composers, but of each other and not let this get out-of-hand.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: kishnevi on February 26, 2018, 09:38:40 PM
Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 10:02:51 PM
Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?

From Wikipedia:

Verklärte Nacht was controversial at its 1902 premiere. This was due to the highly advanced harmonic idiom, although Schoenberg did receive praise for his inventiveness. Some reaction was due to the use of Dehmel's poem as inspiration, questioning the viability of setting its themes to music, or being concerned about the situation of the woman in the story. The work does employ a richly chromatic language and often ventures far from the home key, though the work is clearly rooted in D minor. A particular point of controversy was the use of a single 'nonexistent' (that is, uncategorized and therefore unpermitted) inverted ninth chord, which resulted in its rejection by the Vienna Music Society. Schoenberg remarked "and thus (the work) cannot be performed since one cannot perform that which does not exist”.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: wolftone on February 27, 2018, 01:50:50 AM
My god, how dare somebody make music I dislike!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?

It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 06:36:15 AM
Jeffrey is right, though, that from our perspective, finding Verklärte Nacht “ugly” is . . . queerly finicky.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 06:44:00 AM
It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.

This was actually a quote from someone --- the name slips me right now.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 07:05:48 AM
It still amazes me to this day that this music from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern still hasn’t quite had the breakthrough it deserves. There are still people who view this music as something that belongs to a horror film soundtrack. I personally find much of the music from these three composers to be quite beautiful, haunting, and intensely passionate. I do often wonder what progress has been made in classical listeners’ general outlook of these three composers? Does it still remain something of an elusive music that people simply haven’t developed a taste for? Is it a general lack of exposure? What do you guys think? And please, let’s be respectful of not only the composers, but of each other and not let this get out-of-hand.

Reputation has something to do with it, I feel, as well as lack of exposure, and both of those feed into each other.  If people aren't familiar with Schoenberg's style and take a cursory listen to one of his pieces, they may come away merely hearing nothing but a jumble of notes without rhyme or reason, especially if that's what they're expecting given the reputation of his music.

I was fortunate not to know anything about his reputation when I first encountered the music, and it surprised me to find that others considered this music tuneless and ugly.

There's also the fact that people like to have someone to blame for how much they despise current modern trends, and Schoenberg has remained a convenient scapegoat for others' "sins," even when his music is completely different on a stylistic level from those trends.  This has nothing to do with anything Schoenberg or his school composed, and everything to do with what they represent in the minds of a certain segment of listeners.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 07:18:13 AM
Someday (perhaps) Schoenberg will cease to be the whipping boy.

But maybe not in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 07:47:13 AM
Reputation has something to do with it, I feel, as well as lack of exposure, and both of those feed into each other.  If people aren't familiar with Schoenberg's style and take a cursory listen to one of his pieces, they may come away merely hearing nothing but a jumble of notes without rhyme or reason, especially if that's what they're expecting given the reputation of his music.

I was fortunate not to know anything about his reputation when I first encountered the music, and it surprised me to find that others considered this music tuneless and ugly.

There's also the fact that people like to have someone to blame for how much they despise current modern trends, and Schoenberg has remained a convenient scapegoat for others' "sins," even when his music is completely different on a stylistic level from those trends.  This has nothing to do with anything Schoenberg or his school composed, and everything to do with what they represent in the minds of a certain segment of listeners.

Someday (perhaps) Schoenberg will cease to be the whipping boy.

But maybe not in my lifetime.

There’s certainly a lot of truth in both of these posts.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Jo498 on February 27, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.
The last clause is actually quite brilliantly funny and not at all an unfitting description of Verklärte Nacht. It does not suffice to establish tuneless and ugly, of course.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 08:53:16 AM
There are at least 500 CDs of Schoenberg's music in the catalog. There are multiple recordings of all of his major works by reputable conductors, performers and ensembles. Do we really have to start the "Schoenberg is the whipping boy" discussion again? His works are widely known and available, he is just as popular as he should be.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 09:02:34 AM
There are at least 500 CDs of Schoenberg's music in the catalog. There are multiple recordings of all of his major works by reputable conductors, performers and ensembles. Do we really have to start the "Schoenberg is the whipping boy" discussion again? His works are widely known and available, he is just as popular as he should be.

But how much of his oeuvre is enjoyed outside of a niche group of listeners? Why hasn’t Schoenberg’s music been given privilege in the concert hall as much as Beethoven or Mozart? This is what I’d really like to know. The comment regarding recordings has nothing to do with determining how popular a composer is. I think Karl’s post about Schoenberg still being considered a ‘whipping boy’ is spot-on and the lack of popularity in terms of concert performances and general public opinion is certainly a testament to this fact.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 09:08:06 AM
There are at least 500 CDs of Schoenberg's music in the catalog. There are multiple recordings of all of his major works by reputable conductors, performers and ensembles. Do we really have to start the "Schoenberg is the whipping boy" discussion again? His works are widely known and available, he is just as popular as he should be.

And in spite of all that, the idea that Schoenberg wrote tuneless and unemotional music persists, as does the idea that he somehow destroyed the Western musical tradition.  These things alone attest to the fact that his works are not particularly widely known, much less understood.  I think that his music has the potential to be more popular than it is.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:08:39 AM
The "lack of popularity" of Schoenberg's music reflects the fact that, statistically, less people like it. Material which requires less attention and study is typically more popular, just as The Da Vinci Code is more popular than Ulysses.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 09:12:13 AM
The "lack of popularity" of Schoenberg's music reflects the fact that, statistically, less people like it. Material which requires less attention and study is typically more popular, just as The Da Vinci Code is more popular than Ulysses.

Unfamiliarity of the language aside, getting Schoenberg's music is not any more difficult than getting Mahler's symphonies (I mean really getting them) or Bartok's Quartets or, heck, much of late Beethoven.  The difference is that people are willing to put in the effort with the others because of their reputation for being difficult but rewarding.  Schoenberg retains a reputation of having written intellectual nonsense.  Why would one bother to listen until one understands the music if there's no prospect of a reward?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:15:31 AM
And in spite of all that, the idea that Schoenberg wrote tuneless and unemotional music persists, as does the idea that he somehow destroyed the Western musical tradition.  These things alone attest to the fact that his works are not particularly widely known, much less understood.  I think that his music has the potential to be more popular than it is.

Now you want to control what ideas about Schoenberg's music can be expressed? Maybe you should consider the possibility that some of the ideas people have about Schoenberg's music actually have something to do with Schoenberg's music.

The bottom line is Schoenberg's music is complex. A person who is not interested in investing intellectual energy in Schoenberg's music will not be attracted to it. On the other hand, you can put on Eine Kleine Nachtmusic and , da.. da da... da da da da da da... It is catchy.

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:20:13 AM
Unfamiliarity of the language aside, getting Schoenberg's music is not any more difficult than getting Mahler's symphonies (I mean really getting them) or Bartok's Quartets or, heck, much of late Beethoven.

And why do you put the language aside? You can listen to Mahler and be attracted to the tunes without trying to grasp the overblown structure and morose obsession with death that it is attached to. And I don't think that Bartok's quartets or late Beethoven are any more popular that Schoenberg.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 09:22:04 AM
There are at least 500 CDs of Schoenberg's music in the catalog. There are multiple recordings of all of his major works by reputable conductors, performers and ensembles. Do we really have to start the "Schoenberg is the whipping boy" discussion again?

Thank Robert R. Reilly, who as recently as 2016 is enraged that Schoenberg has destroyed all that is beautiful in art.

Quote
Schoenberg unleashed the forces of disintegration in music through his denial of tonality.

Oh, and that's just him getting started . . . so I must decline the honor of being designated the one to “start it again.”  We still have dinosaurs holding high the Cross of Tonality, and execrating Schoenberg for being the one to crucify the Sacred in Music.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
The "lack of popularity" of Schoenberg's music reflects the fact that, statistically, less people like it. Material which requires less attention and study is typically more popular, just as The Da Vinci Code is more popular than Ulysses.

It also reflects (per Reilly, e.g.) reactionary activism that just won't quit.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 09:28:04 AM
And why do you put the language aside? You can listen to Mahler and be attracted to the tunes without trying to grasp the overblown structure and morose obsession with death that it is attached to.

I don't think Mahler's music is overblown (his music is structurally ingenious, and not filled with superfluous elements) or especially death-obsessed.  He was quite an optimist, pace Adorno.

And how is something like Mahler's Fifth more tuneful than Schoenberg's Violin Concerto?  All I hear in either is lots of memorable melodies and intricate motivic structures.  You don't need to grasp the structure of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto (which is simpler in that regard than most Mahler Symphonies anyway) in order to enjoy its kaleidoscope of moods and colors.

And I don't think that Bartok's quartets or late Beethoven are any more popular that Schoenberg.

From the view of the average listener, you may be right.  Still, Schoenberg's music is treated as separate even from such "difficult" classics as those, or Mahler's works.

Now you want to control what ideas about Schoenberg's music can be expressed? Maybe you should consider the possibility that some of the ideas people have about Schoenberg's music actually have something to do with Schoenberg's music.

I have no such wish, nor did I express one.

Of course the ideas have something to do with Schoenberg's music, just as the idea that the Earth is flat is related to the shape of our planet.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:34:59 AM
It also reflects (per Reilly, e.g.) reactionary activism that just won't quit.

And who the hell is Robert R. Reilly?

Quote
We still have dinosaurs holding high the Cross of Tonality, and execrating Schoenberg for being the one to crucify the Sacred in Music.

Sounds like free publicity for Schoenberg. Anyone who pays any attention to that sort of rhetoric isn't going to go for Schoenberg anyway. To be attracted to Schoenberg you have to have a hankering for some weird shit.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 09:36:46 AM
Right.  People can simply sit unaware of late Beethoven, and think amiably of him as Schroeder's hero.

But Schoenberg is still the scapegoat for All That Is Wrong in Music Today:

Quote from: Reilly
Without tonality, music loses harmony and melody.  Its structural force collapses.  Gutting music of tonality, as Schoenberg did, is like removing grapes from wine.  You can go through all the motions of making wine without grapes, but there will be wine at the end of the process.

Neither of the musical statements (“Without tonality, music loses harmony and melody.”  “Its structural force collapses.”) is true.  And the simile is pure emotional outreach.

The only thing that is true in that citation, is the author’s implacable resentment of Schoenberg.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2018, 09:42:05 AM
Thank Robert R. Reilly, who as recently as 2016 is enraged that Schoenberg has destroyed all that is beautiful in art.
...
...und Roger Scruton ist auch dabei... ::)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 09:42:14 AM
And who the hell is Robert R. Reilly?

Author of Surprised by Beauty:  A Listener’s Guide to the Recovery of Modern Music.  (Well, clearly it needs to be recovered from Schoenberg!)

Sounds like free publicity for Schoenberg. Anyone who pays any attention to that sort of rhetoric isn't going to go for Schoenberg anyway.

Viz. free publicity, not really;  it is the introductory chapter (entitled “Is Music Sacred?” — no, but really) in a book dedicated to safe-as-milk 20th-c. music.  Viz. rhetoric, you certainly have a point.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:45:42 AM
Right.  People can simply sit unaware of late Beethoven, and think amiably of him as Schroeder's hero.

But Schoenberg is still the scapegoat for All That Is Wrong in Music Today:

Neither of the musical statements (“Without tonality, music loses harmony and melody.”  “Its structural force collapses.”) is true.  And the simile is pure emotional outreach.

The only thing that is true in that citation, is the author’s implacable resentment of Schoenberg.

Sure, that bit about the Wine is nonsense, but I repeat, who the hell is Robert Reilly, and why do you think he has any control over what people listen to? You think it should be forbidden to make nonsensical statements about Schoenberg. You will find lunatics that say the same about artist, that Beethoven destroyed classical music, that the Bee Gees destroyed rock music, that Bob Dylan destroyed folk music by buying an electric guitar, etc. Free advertising.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 09:47:30 AM
Sounds like free publicity for Schoenberg. Anyone who pays any attention to that sort of rhetoric isn't going to go for Schoenberg anyway. To be attracted to Schoenberg you have to have a hankering for some weird shit.

Or, like me, you are attracted to it for the same reasons as Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, and Mahler are attractive.  If you're looking to get weirded out by strange sounds, Schoenberg's music is probably not the place to go.  I look to it for expression, counterpoint, melody, and harmony that bring the Austro-Germanic tradition of motivic development and structural innovation into a new idiom.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Sure, that bit about the Wine is nonsense, but I repeat, who the hell is Robert Reilly, and why do you think he has any control over what people listen to?

I think no such thing.

You think it should be forbidden to make nonsensical statements about Schoenberg.

Why do you think so?

Not sure I should trouble to say what I think, since I am being told, and have not been asked  8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 09:56:08 AM
*Munches popcorn* :D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 09:56:48 AM
The bottom line for me is I don't think silly rhetoric like those quotes from that Reilly guy has any bearing on Schoenberg's popularity. In the scheme of things in classical music, Schoenberg is relatively popular, more popular than most of the composers working in his day. And I think his popularity, such as it is, is mainly determined by how people react when they hear his music. His music is different from what came before and I hear it from both sides - that he is defamed by cretins who condemn his music as noise, and that he is pushed by music school elitists who despise the beauty of "tonal" music. I find both narratives equally unconvincing.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 09:59:04 AM
The bottom line for me is I don't think silly rhetoric like those quotes from that Reilly guy has any bearing on Schoenberg's popularity. In the scheme of things in classical music, Schoenberg is relatively popular, more popular than most of the composers working in his day. And I think his popularity, such as it is, is mainly determined by how people react when they hear his music. His music is different from what came before and I hear it from both sides - he is defamed by cretins who condemn his music as noise, and he is pushed by music school elitists who despise the beauty of "tonal" music. I find both narratives equally unconvincing.

But how much of Schoenberg’s popularity rests solely on his notoriety as a composer of ‘decadent’ music and not for those who actually like the music?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 10:02:00 AM
But how much of Schoenberg’s popularity rests solely on his notoriety as a composer of ‘decadent’ music and not for those who actually like the music?

I define popularity as the extent to which people listen to his music. It is my impression that Stravinsky's serial (I dare not use the a-word) music is not listened to any more frequency than Schoenberg's, even though Schoenberg supposedly has the horrid stigma attached to his name and Stravinsky does not. The fraction of people who are interested in serial music is smaller than more traditional music, and that is because of the way the music sounds, and not because of rhetoric.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 10:03:26 AM
Personally, I feel that if Schoenberg’s popularity is based upon merely university music programs and pen-pushing musicologists, then he’s popular for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 10:11:47 AM
The bottom line for me is I don't think silly rhetoric like those quotes from that Reilly guy has any bearing on Schoenberg's popularity. In the scheme of things in classical music, Schoenberg is relatively popular, more popular than most of the composers working in his day. And I think his popularity, such as it is, is mainly determined by how people react when they hear his music. His music is different from what came before and I hear it from both sides - that he is defamed by cretins who condemn his music as noise, and that he is pushed by music school elitists who despise the beauty of "tonal" music. I find both narratives equally unconvincing.

Certainly agree that Schoenberg will never be popular (and that, while there is a customary popularity of a number of LvB works, there is much LvB that won't ever be popular, either).

Bearing and control are IMO beside the res.  The Reilly crusade-in-a-chia-pet is a data point, not a driver.  You asked why I was starting the whipping boy discussion.  I do not consider it unmanly to admit that I am incapable of starting a thing which has never really stopped.


Anyway, I do not believe that you and I have any quarrel.  I was only glad of the discussion as an occasion to vent about this resurgent blinkered philistinism, masquerading as a Defense of the Sacred.  Sure, he has every right to say whatever he pleases about Schoenberg, how silly soever.  And I make free to point out that I've seen better heads in Dr. Mgumbe's Shrinkery.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 10:13:32 AM
Be fair: there are pens in the world, and they must be pushed  8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
Be fair: there are pens in the world, and they must be pushed  8)

Well, that’s certainly true. (Picks up pen and smiles) :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 10:18:52 AM
Personally, I feel that if Schoenberg’s popularity is based upon merely university music programs and pen-pushing musicologists, then he’s popular for all the wrong reasons.

I encountered Schoenberg's music simply through wanting to explore the repertoire and follow it wherever it led.  I still have yet to take part in a single university class on music theory or history.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 10:22:59 AM
I encountered Schoenberg's music simply through wanting to explore the repertoire and follow it wherever it led.  I still have yet to take part in a single university class on music theory or history.

But would you agree that Schoenberg’s popularity, or lack thereof, is based on assumptions that seem misguided?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 10:24:42 AM
But would you agree that Schoenberg’s popularity, or lack thereof, is based on assumptions that seem misguided?

You really don't want me to answer that question and bring that topic up again.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 10:27:00 AM
I encountered Schoenberg's music simply through wanting to explore the repertoire and follow it wherever it led.  I still have yet to take part in a single university class on music theory or history.

I first encountered Schoenberg in a college-level intro music course. It didn't make an impression at the time, since mainly they talked about and made us listen to those suites of short pieces for orchestra, which to this day I find utterly uninteresting. Later I came across Boulez' recording of VN in sextet form, which I found mesmerizing, and worked from there, eventually coming to like the long-form serial works.

This is the disc.

(https://img.discogs.com/GYt1x7DVhlV2AWTEtarpdplgef4=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5045022-1382994646-1477.jpeg.jpg)

I remember finding the Suite on the same CD to be utterly incomprehensible, although now I've gotten to like it.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 10:33:40 AM
You really don't want me to answer that question and bring that topic up again.

No, I suppose not. :)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 27, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
It still amazes me to this day that this music from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern still hasn’t quite had the breakthrough it deserves. There are still people who view this music as something that belongs to a horror film soundtrack. I personally find much of the music from these three composers to be quite beautiful, haunting, and intensely passionate.

Funny you should come up with this analogy, because years ago when I was getting to know this music, I thought it would be great as the soundtrack for a noir-ish murder mystery, with nocturnal streets full of mist, the distant glow of the street lamps, and the clink of glasses at the nearby wine bar. All filmed in luxurious black & white of course. In other words, not a horror movie but something very atmospheric and seductive.

Anyway - I've managed to hear plenty of live Schoenberg, Berg and Webern in my time, and it always draws decent-sized, enthusiastic audiences. If these guys aren't as popular as Mozart or Tchaikovsky, so what? They have their audience.

As for Robert Reilly, I've been aware of him for a number of years. He's one those "good bad" guys. Good, because he points people to composers they might like, but whom they might not have discovered otherwise. Bad, because he covers everything with a sheen of ideology. And picking on Schoenberg this late in the game is just tiresome and old hat.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 11:15:52 AM
As for Robert Reilly, I've been aware of him for a number of years. He's one those "good bad" guys. Good, because he points people to composers they might like, but whom they might not have discovered otherwise. Bad, because he covers everything with a sheen of ideology. And picking on Schoenberg this late in the game is just tiresome and old hat.

Indeed.  I wanted to like the book, because he dedicates chapters to a number of composers of whose work I think highly, but who remain relatively neglected in the "serious literature";  but in flogging his horse, he also populates his book with some of the C-Team.  If the Pink Harp had made six years of serious study, he would probably end up something like Reilly.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
Funny you should come up with this analogy, because years ago when I was getting to know this music, I thought it would be great as the soundtrack for a noir-ish murder mystery, with nocturnal streets full of mist, the distant glow of the street lamps, and the clink of glasses at the nearby wine bar. All filmed in luxurious black & white of course. In other words, not a horror movie but something very atmospheric and seductive.

Perhaps this has to do with the influence of Bernard Herrmann?  His film music doesn't really sound much like Schoenberg but it has a harmonic palette with some of the same sonorities.

Most horror movie soundtracks today seem to have pseudo-Penderecki stuff on them.  Aleatoric sul ponticello strings are a favorite device for creating unease.

I don't personally think it's wrong to try to find parallels with more familiar popular culture for something that's unfamiliar; the main problem is that it's reductive.  Characterizing Schoenberg's music as a wallow in angst and terror is like characterizing Mozart's music as a relaxed drawing room.  It may work to give someone a point of reference, but it ceases to have much meaning once you get deeper into the music and discover the tenderness and lyricism in Schoenberg or the drama and tension in Mozart.

As for Robert Reilly, I've been aware of him for a number of years. He's one those "good bad" guys. Good, because he points people to composers they might like, but whom they might not have discovered otherwise. Bad, because he covers everything with a sheen of ideology. And picking on Schoenberg this late in the game is just tiresome and old hat.

I feel similarly.  There's nothing wrong with not liking some music and wanting to discover music that fits your tastes better, and if you bring other people along for the ride, that's even better.  Trashing one composer in order to bolster another is, generally speaking, poor advocacy.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: arpeggio on February 27, 2018, 11:33:23 AM
I am hesitant to participate in these discussions because my real life experiences with Schoenberg run contrary to many of the observations I have read in many internet forums over the years.

One other forum that I occasionally participate is dominated by an anti modern music faction.  I eventually discovered that many of these members have a very constrained view of the world of classical music.  Some of them are Americans and they think that what is applicable here is also occurring in the rest of the world.  For many there only exposure to classical music is the recordings of what they listen too or what they read about it in internet forums.  Many of them rarely attend concerts and when they see a concert that programs a work by Schoenberg they do not attend it and have no idea how audiences react to his music.  Most people who attend concerts on a regular basic have a completely different view on the state of classical music.  Many of us here are amateur or professional musicians.  I am an amateur bassoonist.  I play with three groups and on a weekly basis have interactions with dozens of people who follow music.

Some real life examples I have had with Schoenberg.

I recently attended a performance of Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht with the strings of the United States Marine Chamber Orchestra.  They received an extended standing ovation from a very enthusiastic audience.

One of the community groups I play with is the McLean Symphony.  A few years ago Mahlerian prepare a transcription for orchestra of Schoenberg's Sechs Kleine Kammermusic, Op. 19.  We premiered the work.  Most of the audience loved it and for many it was their favorite work on the program.  (Way to go Mahlerian   ;)  )
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2018, 11:40:50 AM
Funny you should come up with this analogy, because years ago when I was getting to know this music, I thought it would be great as the soundtrack for a noir-ish murder mystery, with nocturnal streets full of mist, the distant glow of the street lamps, and the clink of glasses at the nearby wine bar. All filmed in luxurious black & white of course. In other words, not a horror movie but something very atmospheric and seductive.

What wonderful imagery. If I were a filmmaker, I’d definitely use classical music as my soundtrack, because, quite frankly, good film music is just hard to come by these days.

Edit: Without even realizing it, I inadvertently opened up a whole can of worms about the degradation of film music. :-\
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 11:58:35 AM
I am hesitant to participate in these discussions because my real life experiences with Schoenberg run contrary to many of the observations I have read in many internet forums over the years.

One other forum that I occasionally participate is dominated my an anti modern music faction.  I eventually discovered that many of these members have a very constrained view of the world of classical music.  Some of them are Americans and they think that what is applicable here is also occurring in the rest of the world.  For many there only exposure to classical music is the recordings of what they listen too or what they read about it in internet forums.  Many of them rarely attend concerts and when they see a concert that programs a work by Schoenberg whey do not attend it and have no idea how audiences react to his music.  Most people who attend concerts on a regular basic have a completely different view on the state of classical music.  Many of us here are amateur or professional musicians.  I am an amateur bassoonist.  I play with three groups and on a weekly basis have interactions with dozens of people who follow music.

Some real life examples I have had with Schoenberg.

I recently attended a performance of Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht with the strings of the United States Marine Chamber Orchestra.  The received a extended standing ovation from a very enthusiastic audience.

One of the community groups I play with is the McLean Symphony.  A few years ago Mahlerian prepare a transcription for orchestra of Schoenberg's Sechs Kleine Kammermusic, Op. 19.  We premiered the work.  Most of the audience loved and for many it was their favorite work on the program.  (Way to go Mahlerian   ;)  )

Excellent!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: CRCulver on March 01, 2018, 03:35:25 AM
Later I came across Boulez' recording of VN in sextet form

Did Boulez actually conduct the string sextet on that disc, or only the Suite op. 29? Verklarte Nacht is usually performed without a conductor.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2018, 03:59:12 AM
A fair question.  (Not that I have the answer.)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2018, 07:21:36 AM
(Not that I am genuinely surprised.) In the light of the contemporary incomprehension of Verklärte Nacht, I am especially noticing how the First Chamber Symphony is largely (by turns) heroic and cheerful.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on March 01, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
(Not that I am genuinely surprised.) In the light of the contemporary incomprehension of Verklärte Nacht, I am especially noticing how the First Chamber Symphony is largely (by turns) heroic and cheerful.

I've long been convinced that the first allegro theme is Schoenberg's take on Strauss's Don Juan.  The character is very similar.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2018, 08:33:44 AM
Did Boulez actually conduct the string sextet on that disc, or only the Suite op. 29? Verklarte Nacht is usually performed without a conductor.

I believe he oversaw the performance, but didn’t actually conduct it as the sextet version doesn’t require a conductor.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2018, 09:03:46 AM
I believe he oversaw the performance, but didn’t actually conduct it as the sextet version doesn’t require a conductor.

A friend of mine claims he saw Boulez conduct a string quartet once. So maybe he did, although it's hard to figure out why that would be necessary.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2018, 09:20:58 AM
A friend of mine claims he saw Boulez conduct a string quartet once. So maybe he did, although it's hard to figure out why that would be necessary.

That’s quite strange indeed as a string quartet is dependent on the body language of each member and visual cues and a conductor really has no place in it IMHO. But since it’s a sextet, perhaps Boulez felt the need to make sure all the balances were right? Who knows really...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 09:27:56 AM
A friend of mine claims he saw Boulez conduct a string quartet once. So maybe he did, although it's hard to figure out why that would be necessary.

I don't know what took place, but the performance was given by the Ensemble Intercontemporian, which is not the same as a string sextet, where a group of musicians form a self-directed group. It is a group with a leader, Pierre Boulez. His name is listed under the name of the ensemble, without specifying his precise role. I assume he rehearsed them and shaped the performance. Whether he found it useful to stand in front of them and "conduct" I do not know.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2018, 10:09:52 AM
BTW I was once privileged to watch Boulez conduct the CSO from the front (in the seats located behind the orchestra). It was fascinating - Boulez didn't use a baton, was absolutely stonefaced throughout, and very economical with his gestures. That's a fun place to sit, because you can observe a wide variety of conductorial styles up close. Boulez was the most restrained conductor I'd ever seen.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2018, 10:13:35 AM
A friend of mine claims he saw Boulez conduct a string quartet once. So maybe he did, although it's hard to figure out why that would be necessary.

I could see quartets written in so gnarly a way, that a discreet referee would be value added.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 01, 2018, 03:10:50 PM
Depending on the way a string quartet is composed it may require a conductor. I am thinking of maybe a very dense modern score where the approach to writing for the quartet is more orchestral in its textural layering and complexity than chamber.

https://www.youtube.com/v/cxtxL1w8D5Q
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 03:22:07 PM
That said, for all of its harmonic and thematic complexity, Verklarte Nacht doesn't strike me as so rhythmically complex that cues from a conductor would be necessary. But Boulez might have wanted to participate in shaping the performance, nevertheless. I haven't come across of a Boulez directed live performance of the sextet version, so we can only speculate.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 02, 2018, 02:06:56 AM
That said, for all of its harmonic and thematic complexity, Verklarte Nacht doesn't strike me as so rhythmically complex that cues from a conductor would be necessary.

Fully agreed.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on March 26, 2018, 02:00:45 PM
Jotting down a few thoughts about Schoenberg, inspired by my (as we speak) listening of his magnificent Moses und Aron:

I came to know about Schoenberg in the same way as most young musicians/music lovers do - his music is difficult and scary, it sent music down to a path of destruction; or alternatively, it was treated as an academically impressive but musically sterile land. Neither way felt inviting, so I decided to stay well away. Not a wise decision, but maybe I needed to let myself discover it on my own terms, instead of having others tell me how to feel about this or that.

Anyhow, I ended up hearing two pieces live in two separate concerts: the Verklärte Nacht, Op. 4 and the Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene, Op. 34. In both cases I had a tremendously negative attitude even before the concert, but luckily I was convinced to give the music a chance - by my mom in the case of the sextet, as she really loved it even though she had absolutely no knowledge on musical modernism; and by my piano teacher in the case of the Begleitmusik as she was not interested at all in seeing one of her students approach a piece of music while being filled with such a silly prejudice. On that note, I'm only now realizing what a wonderful influence that woman had on me; as I've been going through my scores from my earlier piano student days, I've discovered a lot of music by composers like Bartók and Shostakovich. She really wanted to make me embrace the 20th century, and for that I am forever grateful!

I can't say the live experiences made me fall in love with Schoenberg's music immediately, but one thing was sure: the music was in no way as scary as I had thought based on comments I had seen online. So the game was set - I'd have to listen to more of his work at some point.

I think the biggest bomb went off when I first heard the Piano Concerto, Op. 42. It was an unbelievably powerful experience, I hadn't heard such expressive strength in a concerto in ages. It really felt like a breath of fresh air; air that I had needed without really realizing it. The Uchida/Boulez/Cleveland Orchestra recording on Decca, rightfully treated as a classic, played a really big part in my process of learning to appreciate the piece. That brings me to one of my main thoughts about Schoenberg: more so than in many other composers' work, his music requires absolutely perfect performances - and I don't mean perfect in a technical sense, even though that's of course required too, but rather perfect as in a courage to play the music expressively and with a beating heart; the music it not abstract, but filled with infinite expressive potential that is open for so much interpretation. A very good example is the Violin Concerto, Op. 36, a piece that Hilary Hahn really managed to bring alive in a way that made me hear it as one the crowning achievements of the genre it truly is.

The piano music interested me a lot too, since I'm an amateur pianist and enjoy getting my hands dirty even with scores that are beyond my abilities. The Op. 11 pieces sent a lightning bolt through me - I mean, what else could the opening of the third piece do to anyone, or the emotional climax of the second piece? Something similar, though in a different way, happened with the Op. 19 pieces. There was something so wonderfully curious about them, a whisper from a distant place that I couldn't quite reach. The opening harmonies of the last piece in the set still get stuck into my head, even after years of acquaintance. The Op. 25 suite is an amazing piece, filled with so many beautiful and playful moments that I find it impossible to understand why so many people think that Schoenberg's musical language is dry or academic.

Hearing the vocal works was another huge eye-opener. The operatic works are some of the most important works to me in the genre, especially Erwartung and Moses und Aron. I really wish Von heute auf morgen was recorded more often, since I haven't been able to find a performance that I'd really enjoy from an interpretative point of view. Pierrot lunaire is without a doubt one of the musical monuments of the century. I don't think I will ever get bored of it; every performance I hear brings out something new and interesting that I haven't noticed before! Gurrelieder and Die Jakobsleiter are both works that I'm always happy to listen to. A Survivor from Warsaw is one of the most disturbing pieces I've ever heard - I love it, but hesitate to listen to it too often, it's too painful. I'm eagerly waiting for some live performances in my current city - I think I'd have to attend every performance of Moses und Aron if it was ever taken up by our national opera!

The chamber works are of course some of the most important in Schoenberg's oeuvre - how could anyone talk about 20th century music without mentioning the string quartets? The Fantasy for violin and piano is one of my personal favourites. The Serenade, Op. 24 and the Suite, Op. 29 are both works that I admire. The String Trio is a curious case, as I've grown to love it very much but it is, for me, probably the single most incomprehensible work by the composer; seriously, it took me many listens to even start grasping it. No idea why, since Schoenberg's musical language only seldom causes me any confusion. What do others think? Has the work been problematic for anyone else?

Schoenberg is without a doubt one of the most important musical figures for me personally. His music touches me both emotionally and intellectually, if one can even say that such a division exists. There's vitality, beauty and compositional virtuosity in pretty much everything he wrote. It never feels superficial; I always feel like here is a composer who is honest about what he's trying to say. Anyone wanting to explore his music has such a stunning variety of works at their disposal, there's something for every taste. What else could you ask for? He remains a controversial figure, but I think anyone with a little patience can easily realize, upon closer inspection, that his music is very much rooted in tradition and his experiments are not at all difficult to understand. People ridicule Schoenberg for hoping that his tunes would one day be whistled by the regular people, but I'm very much part of the regular people (whatever that means) and my head is constantly filled with Schoenbergian melodies. Go figure.

This post became perhaps a bit too long to be very interesting, so as a little lightweight coda I'll list my (current) top 5 pieces by this wonderful artist:

1. Piano Concerto, Op. 42
2. Moses und Aron
3. Chamber Symphony No. 1, Op. 9
4. Violin Concerto, Op. 36
5. Suite for Piano, Op. 25
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on March 26, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
Schoenberg is without a doubt one of the most important musical figures for me personally. His music touches me both emotionally and intellectually, if one can even say that such a division exists. There's vitality, beauty and compositional virtuosity in pretty much everything he wrote. It never feels superficial; I always feel like here is a composer who is honest about what he's trying to say. Anyone wanting to explore his music has such a stunning variety of works at their disposal, there's something for every taste. What else could you ask for? He remains a controversial figure, but I think anyone with a little patience can easily realize, upon closer inspection, that his music is very much rooted in tradition and his experiments are not at all difficult to understand. People ridicule Schoenberg for hoping that his tunes would one day be whistled by the regular people, but I'm very much part of the regular people (whatever that means) and my head is constantly filled with Schoenbergian melodies. Go figure.

Well said (and that goes for your entire post).

I have to say that my experience was different in that I had never heard of Schoenberg before I heard his music, and I was taken in by it immediately, even though I found it difficult (just as I had Debussy, Mahler, Takemitsu, and others).  It was such vital, passionate, and yes, beautiful music that I simply had to discover more and more of it until I knew it all.

I only later came to discover that people hated Schoenberg and they hated his music for reasons that seemed to me then, and seem to me now, nonsensical.

As a composer, Schoenberg is a primary inspiration, for the inner life which his music conveys, its fullness of humanity.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2018, 05:12:16 PM
I only later came to discover that people hated Schoenberg and they hated his music for reasons that seemed to me then, and seem to me now, nonsensical.

Oh brother not this again! ::) It’s a fact that that Schoenberg will never be a popular composer as he’s a composer that only a niche group of listeners enjoy with any kind of frequency. If it’s nonsensical for someone to dislike Schoenberg’s music just because they don’t like the sound of it and it simply doesn’t touch them, then that’s not nonsensical at all. What is nonsensical, however, is your constant need to wave your finger at people who don’t like his music.

This said, I love Schoenberg and think he’s truly one the great composers, but not because of his chosen style(s), but for what he has chosen to express. This, as with anything else I enjoy, is of upmost importance. If someone doesn’t like him, I’m certainly okay with it and you should be, too.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2018, 05:31:34 PM
Jotting down a few thoughts about Schoenberg, inspired by my (as we speak) listening of his magnificent Moses und Aron:

I came to know about Schoenberg in the same way as most young musicians/music lovers do - his music is difficult and scary, it sent music down to a path of destruction; or alternatively, it was treated as an academically impressive but musically sterile land. Neither way felt inviting, so I decided to stay well away. Not a wise decision, but maybe I needed to let myself discover it on my own terms, instead of having others tell me how to feel about this or that.

Anyhow, I ended up hearing two pieces live in two separate concerts: the Verklärte Nacht, Op. 4 and the Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene, Op. 34. In both cases I had a tremendously negative attitude even before the concert, but luckily I was convinced to give the music a chance - by my mom in the case of the sextet, as she really loved it even though she had absolutely no knowledge on musical modernism; and by my piano teacher in the case of the Begleitmusik as she was not interested at all in seeing one of her students approach a piece of music while being filled with such a silly prejudice. On that note, I'm only now realizing what a wonderful influence that woman had on me; as I've been going through my scores from my earlier piano student days, I've discovered a lot of music by composers like Bartók and Shostakovich. She really wanted to make me embrace the 20th century, and for that I am forever grateful!

I can't say the live experiences made me fall in love with Schoenberg's music immediately, but one thing was sure: the music was in no way as scary as I had thought based on comments I had seen online. So the game was set - I'd have to listen to more of his work at some point.

I think the biggest bomb went off when I first heard the Piano Concerto, Op. 42. It was an unbelievably powerful experience, I hadn't heard such expressive strength in a concerto in ages. It really felt like a breath of fresh air; air that I had needed without really realizing it. The Uchida/Boulez/Cleveland Orchestra recording on Decca, rightfully treated as a classic, played a really big part in my process of learning to appreciate the piece. That brings me to one of my main thoughts about Schoenberg: more so than in many other composers' work, his music requires absolutely perfect performances - and I don't mean perfect in a technical sense, even though that's of course required too, but rather perfect as in a courage to play the music expressively and with a beating heart; the music it not abstract, but filled with infinite expressive potential that is open for so much interpretation. A very good example is the Violin Concerto, Op. 36, a piece that Hilary Hahn really managed to bring alive in a way that made me hear it as one the crowning achievements of the genre it truly is.

The piano music interested me a lot too, since I'm an amateur pianist and enjoy getting my hands dirty even with scores that are beyond my abilities. The Op. 11 pieces sent a lightning bolt through me - I mean, what else could the opening of the third piece do to anyone, or the emotional climax of the second piece? Something similar, though in a different way, happened with the Op. 19 pieces. There was something so wonderfully curious about them, a whisper from a distant place that I couldn't quite reach. The opening harmonies of the last piece in the set still get stuck into my head, even after years of acquaintance. The Op. 25 suite is an amazing piece, filled with so many beautiful and playful moments that I find it impossible to understand why so many people think that Schoenberg's musical language is dry or academic.

Hearing the vocal works was another huge eye-opener. The operatic works are some of the most important works to me in the genre, especially Erwartung and Moses und Aron. I really wish Von heute auf morgen was recorded more often, since I haven't been able to find a performance that I'd really enjoy from an interpretative point of view. Pierrot lunaire is without a doubt one of the musical monuments of the century. I don't think I will ever get bored of it; every performance I hear brings out something new and interesting that I haven't noticed before! Gurrelieder and Die Jakobsleiter are both works that I'm always happy to listen to. A Survivor from Warsaw is one of the most disturbing pieces I've ever heard - I love it, but hesitate to listen to it too often, it's too painful. I'm eagerly waiting for some live performances in my current city - I think I'd have to attend every performance of Moses und Aron if it was ever taken up by our national opera!

The chamber works are of course some of the most important in Schoenberg's oeuvre - how could anyone talk about 20th century music without mentioning the string quartets? The Fantasy for violin and piano is one of my personal favourites. The Serenade, Op. 24 and the Suite, Op. 29 are both works that I admire. The String Trio is a curious case, as I've grown to love it very much but it is, for me, probably the single most incomprehensible work by the composer; seriously, it took me many listens to even start grasping it. No idea why, since Schoenberg's musical language only seldom causes me any confusion. What do others think? Has the work been problematic for anyone else?

Schoenberg is without a doubt one of the most important musical figures for me personally. His music touches me both emotionally and intellectually, if one can even say that such a division exists. There's vitality, beauty and compositional virtuosity in pretty much everything he wrote. It never feels superficial; I always feel like here is a composer who is honest about what he's trying to say. Anyone wanting to explore his music has such a stunning variety of works at their disposal, there's something for every taste. What else could you ask for? He remains a controversial figure, but I think anyone with a little patience can easily realize, upon closer inspection, that his music is very much rooted in tradition and his experiments are not at all difficult to understand. People ridicule Schoenberg for hoping that his tunes would one day be whistled by the regular people, but I'm very much part of the regular people (whatever that means) and my head is constantly filled with Schoenbergian melodies. Go figure.

This post became perhaps a bit too long to be very interesting, so as a little lightweight coda I'll list my (current) top 5 pieces by this wonderful artist:

1. Piano Concerto, Op. 42
2. Moses und Aron
3. Chamber Symphony No. 1, Op. 9
4. Violin Concerto, Op. 36
5. Suite for Piano, Op. 25

Thank you for this post! It’s always a great thing to put beside preconceived notions and prejudices and just listen to the music without any kind of outside influence. My own gateway into The Second Viennese School was Berg’s Violin Concerto. It’s still a work that affects me deeply whenever I hear it. One of the main reasons I was scared of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern was the negative stigma that surrounded the music. Of course, people have a right to their opinions and I respect them and I respect the fact that this music isn’t for them. Anyway, Berg’s Violin Concerto awoken something inside of me on that initial listen. It’s as if I entered a labyrinth shrouded in shadow. Like an alternate twilight world perhaps. This was my initial impression in any case, but what I took away from this work was that I needn’t be scared nor should I ever have been --- this is heartbreaking music written by someone who was a complete master IMHO. By the time I got to Schoenberg, I had most of Berg’s oeuvre under my belt. Schoenberg proved to be another revelation. I heard the string orchestra arrangement of Verklärte Nacht performed by Karajan and the Berliners on one of those remastered DG discs that came out many years ago (original-bit-processing or something along this line). I was truly blown away by this music. Also, on this disc was his symphonic poem Pelleas und Melisande and this was another mind-blowing work. It’s as if Wagner had lived much, much longer and took in some of innovations of his contemporaries at that time, but, of course, I’m just joking around here as you couldn’t have had Schoenberg without the influence of Wagner (and really Brahms, too since we’re talking about Arnie). Webern took me quite some time to appreciate, but I think now I’m finally understanding his brilliance. Of course, when I got to mid to late Schoenberg, I was already well-aware of his style and so listening to him was quite easy, but, like with any of my favorite composers, there are always works I don’t like simply because they don’t touch me or move me in any way.

I will say we’re glad to have you here and we hope you continue to post great posts like the one from above. 8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2018, 05:42:33 PM
Oh brother not this again! ::) It’s a fact that that Schoenberg will never be a popular composer as he’s a composer that only a niche group of listeners enjoy with any kind of frequency. If it’s nonsensical for someone to dislike Schoenberg’s music just because they don’t like the sound of it and it simply doesn’t touch them, then that’s not nonsensical at all. What is nonsensical, however, is your constant need to wave your finger at people who don’t like his music.

This said, I love Schoenberg and think he’s truly one the great composers, but not because of his chosen style(s), but for what he has chosen to express. This, as with anything else I enjoy, is of upmost importance. If someone doesn’t like him, I’m certainly okay with it and you should be, too.

I'm gonna have to stick up for finger wagging at Schoenberg haters.  Nine times out of ten, they are reacting to the name and not the music.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2018, 05:46:12 PM
I'm gonna have to stick up for finger wagging at Schoenberg haters.  Nine times out of ten, they are reacting to the name and not the music.

But certainly if someone decides to listen to Schoenberg’s music on it’s own terms and doesn’t like the music, will you still wave your finger in their face?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2018, 06:22:08 PM
But certainly if someone decides to listen to Schoenberg’s music on it’s own terms and doesn’t like the music, will you still wave your finger in their face?

The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
The beatings will continue until morale improves!

Good luck with that! :P
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2018, 01:03:38 AM
Just a lexical quibble, if I may.

It’s a fact that that Schoenberg will never be a popular composer as he’s a composer that only a niche group of listeners enjoy with any kind of frequency.

This would be better stated:

It’s unlikely that Schoenberg will ever be a popular composer as he’s a composer that only a niche group of listeners enjoy with any kind of frequency.

It cannot be a fact, that Schoenberg will never be a popular composer;  unless we know the future.  I am sure that I don't.  It is a reasonable speculation, and the subsequent clause is reasonable support for the speculation.


We might chalk it up to rhetorical exaggeration.  I just like to remind myself, from time to time, what is a fact, and what is not.  Given the present political discussion climate, that is a niche concern   8)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on March 27, 2018, 03:45:47 AM
My own gateway into The Second Viennese School was Berg’s Violin Concerto. It’s still a work that affects me deeply whenever I hear it. --- Anyway, Berg’s Violin Concerto awoken something inside of me on that initial listen. It’s as if I entered a labyrinth shrouded in shadow. Like an alternate twilight world perhaps.

Berg's violin concerto was an early revelation for me too, and I think we're not alone - it's quite common that people find that piece in particular quite accessible. It's a truly magnificent work, a grand statement in the genre; I don't think it's possible to know it and not be moved by it.

That being said, it makes me a bit sad that the Berg is so well known while Schoenberg's concerto for the same instrument remains a rarity in the concert hall. Both pieces are absolutely stunning - I really couldn't choose between the two - and should be part of every self-respecting violinist's repertoire; and I'm only half-joking here... Schoenberg's writing for the violin is admittedly difficult (I think Hilary Hahn once said that she had to forget most conventional fingerings and come up with totally new ones!) but given how high the general level of playing is these days, I think there's no excuse for the lack of performances the piece has had to endure.

I know for a fact that Isabelle Faust - a wonderful German violinist who has made amazing recordings of the concertos of Bartók and Berg, among others - has been actively playing the piece this season, and we can only hope that both she and her recording label realize the potential of breathing new life into this masterpiece, and recording it with fresh interpretative ideas.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on March 27, 2018, 04:02:04 AM
The beatings will continue until morale improves!

I love that joke!  :D :D :D :D  Some would say it describes my teaching style!  :o ???  (but only some!  ;)  )
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on March 27, 2018, 07:37:40 AM
If it’s nonsensical for someone to dislike Schoenberg’s music just because they don’t like the sound of it and it simply doesn’t touch them, then that’s not nonsensical at all.

I agree.  But to say that Schoenberg lacks melodies or his music is effectively random notes is as nonsensical applied to him as it would be applied to Bach.  And many people say those things, rather than that it doesn't appeal to them.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 27, 2018, 07:46:06 AM
I agree.  But to say that Schoenberg lacks melodies or his music is effectively random notes is as nonsensical applied to him as it would be applied to Bach.  And many people say those things, rather than that it doesn't appeal to them.

Then the musically ignorant shouldn’t say anything at all! :) I don’t enjoy Bach or Mozart as well as many people here do, but I confess I’m just not into them. That’s all that needs to be said, we shouldn’t tear down the composer just because we don’t ‘get them’.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mirror Image on March 27, 2018, 07:53:06 AM
Berg's violin concerto was an early revelation for me too, and I think we're not alone - it's quite common that people find that piece in particular quite accessible. It's a truly magnificent work, a grand statement in the genre; I don't think it's possible to know it and not be moved by it.

That being said, it makes me a bit sad that the Berg is so well known while Schoenberg's concerto for the same instrument remains a rarity in the concert hall. Both pieces are absolutely stunning - I really couldn't choose between the two - and should be part of every self-respecting violinist's repertoire; and I'm only half-joking here... Schoenberg's writing for the violin is admittedly difficult (I think Hilary Hahn once said that she had to forget most conventional fingerings and come up with totally new ones!) but given how high the general level of playing is these days, I think there's no excuse for the lack of performances the piece has had to endure.

I know for a fact that Isabelle Faust - a wonderful German violinist who has made amazing recordings of the concertos of Bartók and Berg, among others - has been actively playing the piece this season, and we can only hope that both she and her recording label realize the potential of breathing new life into this masterpiece, and recording it with fresh interpretative ideas.

Yes, the Schoenberg Violin Concerto is notoriously difficult or, at least, from what I’ve read. This, of course, doesn’t excuse it from being so little known. I recall a concert that my grandfather told me about where the Schoenberg VC was performed and he said “I never heard such an awful racket. Sounds like chicken scratch.” :) Of course, I disagree with him and he and I were always musical opposites. He once replied to me “You like that Ravel a lot don’t you, John?” which in his own subtle way, it clearly meant that he did not. He also took shots at my beloved Bartók and Ives. Anyway, my point is it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks as long as you like the music yourself. There will always be someone you can talk to about the music you love, especially here on GMG.

P.S. Yes! Faust would be great in the Schoenberg VC. I wasn’t too crazy about her Berg, though, as I’ve got Mutter’s performance (w/ Levine/CSO) imprinted in my mind. I should give her performance another spin soon.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 27, 2018, 08:00:01 AM
I agree.  But to say that Schoenberg lacks melodies or his music is effectively random notes is as nonsensical applied to him as it would be applied to Bach.  And many people say those things, rather than that it doesn't appeal to them.

If they have heard it and they did not recognize any melodies and it sounded random to them, then that would be a valid description of their reaction. People say equally unenlightened things about Bach all the time. Time to stop beating the dead horse.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mahlerian on March 27, 2018, 08:07:52 AM
If they have heard it and they did not recognize any melodies and it sounded random to them, then that would be a valid description of their reaction. People say equally unenlightened things about Bach all the time. Time to stop beating the dead horse.

Again, I agree.  But with Schoenberg in particular, the tendency seems to be to project one's personal reaction onto the music and amplify a mere misunderstanding into contempt.

People do say unenlightened things about Bach quite often.  But show me someone who says that he singlehandedly destroyed the Western tradition and then we can make a real comparison.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 27, 2018, 08:22:37 AM
People do say unenlightened things about Bach quite often.  But show me someone who says that he singlehandedly destroyed the Western tradition and then we can make a real comparison.

After 15 seconds with google I only found an article about how Beethoven destroyed music. Well played...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on July 03, 2018, 11:41:12 AM
In case you missed this under the "Concerts" topic:  Schoenberg's Gurrelieder performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra [/b ]under Esa Pekka-Salonen.

WOW!  Just WOW!  The Philharmonia Orchestra is one sharp, nuclear-powered orchestra!  We had front row balcony seats and could see everything and hear (just about) everything perfectly!  I was not disappointed at all with the orchestra or most of the soloists!   ;)

Barbara Sukowa softened her hootin' 'n' hollerin' interpretation of the Sprecherin part somewhat: she sounded great!

The orchestra filled the stage and filled the hall with great sound when power was required, and became delicate and chamber-like, when that was required.  The concert was a sell-out, and a semi-standing ovation was given at the end.

Only one thing (or two): the singers for Waldemar (Robert Dean Smith) and Tove (Camilla Tilling) lacked the vocal power to be heard over the orchestra at times: for Waldemar's last song in Part II, the fist-shaking threat against God, Mr. Smith lost the battle for his imprecation to be heard ("...mit meiner wilde Jagd, ins Himmelreich ein!" did not sound as mighty as it should have).

The choirs were also extremely good.  And as far as the conducting goes, Esa Pekka-Salonen was on target, no strange tempi or additions or subtractions:  a fairly slow pace at times, but nothing eccentric, and when speed was called for, the engines were cranked up!

The good part: you can hear the exact same concert via Radio 3 BBC!  Perhaps the engineers were able to bring out the two main voices via microphone magic!

See/Hear:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hvgv (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hvgv)

Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2018, 02:12:39 PM
Molto bene
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Rons_talking on July 07, 2018, 01:18:19 AM
Good discussion! My Schoenberg "gateway" was my hearing of the "Variations for Orchestra" on the radio. To me, it's simple; if one can hear a non-tonal succession of pitches without getting riled-up there is a lot to enjoy. Every note he composed as a mature composer, has been scrutinized and explicated in the myriad of papers written for the academy. In light of this reality, it's hard to label his music as random or haphazard. But pushing aside academics, the music is powerful and monumental in its musicality alone. Whether it be Gurrleider or the String Trio, I believe we are all better musicians and listeners for having listened to his music.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2018, 02:11:48 AM
Good discussion! My Schoenberg "gateway" was my hearing of the "Variations for Orchestra" on the radio. To me, it's simple; if one can hear a non-tonal succession of pitches without getting riled-up there is a lot to enjoy. Every note he composed as a mature composer, has been scrutinized and explicated in the myriad of papers written for the academy. In light of this reality, it's hard to label his music as random or haphazard. But pushing aside academics, the music is powerful and monumental in its musicality alone. Whether it be Gurrelieder or the String Trio, I believe we are all better musicians and listeners for having listened to his music.

And are we better people for having listened to Schoenberg?  Now there is a question!   :D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: BBC 3 Gurrelieder 16 days Left
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2018, 02:53:16 AM
Greetings!

Here again is the link to the performance of June 28th of the Gurrelieder with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Esa Pekka-Salonen conducting.

The two principal voices are easier to hear, thanks to the radio engineers, than they were from our front-row balcony seats.  ;) 
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Where is the link?  What am I missing?  0:)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: snyprrr on July 12, 2018, 10:20:59 AM
I finally made it round to the 6 Pieces for Piano, after going through Chopin-Scriabin-Faure-etc.,... especially in relation to Scriabin.

Well, wow, talk about spare!!!! If nothing else, Schoenberg seems to be the guy who introduced Silence into Music? ... which, humorously enough... :P :P :P
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: BBC 3 Gurrelieder 16 days Left
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2018, 12:33:52 PM
Where is the link?  What am I missing?  0:)

The fingers did not obey the head!  ;D

Here it is! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b7hvgv (https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b7hvgv)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on July 16, 2018, 05:29:12 AM
The 3 pieces for chamber orchestra, without an opus number, is a fascinating set of miniatures. I was not familiar with them before this week (I bought 11 CDs of Boulez conducting the composer's music; more on that later...) and I'm intrigued! They are very short, almost Webernian in that sense - but the music is well worth hearing. There's always something new to discover, waiting around the corner.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen: BBC 3 Gurrelieder c. 2 Weeks Left
Post by: Cato on July 17, 2018, 06:02:03 AM
The fingers did not obey the head!  ;D

Here it is! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b7hvgv (https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b7hvgv)

The radio broadcast does allow one to hear the Waldemar part better than in the hall: I have relistened to the whole concert, and remain impressed by the orchestra, choirs, and most of the soloists.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 17, 2018, 06:56:38 AM
Nice, and thanks!  I do want to sit and listen . . . soon.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on September 07, 2018, 12:43:28 PM
I heard an excellent performance of the Piano Concerto today, played by Kirill Gerstein with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra and Susanna Mälkki. What a joy it was! This was my first time seeing the work live, and the lyricism, drama and wit of the score were brought out wonderfully by the performers. Gerstein's approach was very soft and romantic, although occasionally he really turned the piano into a monster. There were a few moments where I felt like some of the orchestral lines we're a bit too blurry, but this is a very minor quibble indeed. Amazing experience, I feel like my admiration for the piece has been immensely enriched.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 07, 2018, 03:48:15 PM
I heard an excellent performance of the Piano Concerto today, played by Kirill Gerstein with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra and Susanna Mälkki. What a joy it was! This was my first time seeing the work live, and the lyricism, drama and wit of the score were brought out wonderfully by the performers. Gerstein's approach was very soft and romantic, although occasionally he really turned the piano into a monster. There were a few moments where I felt like some of the orchestral lines we're a bit too blurry, but this is a very minor quibble indeed. Amazing experience, I feel like my admiration for the piece has been immensely enriched.

Très cool.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on September 07, 2018, 03:53:07 PM
I heard an excellent performance of the Piano Concerto today, played by Kirill Gerstein with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra and Susanna Mälkki. What a joy it was! This was my first time seeing the work live, and the lyricism, drama and wit of the score were brought out wonderfully by the performers. Gerstein's approach was very soft and romantic, although occasionally he really turned the piano into a monster. There were a few moments where I felt like some of the orchestral lines we're a bit too blurry, but this is a very minor quibble indeed. Amazing experience, I feel like my admiration for the piece has been immensely enriched.

There are some monstrous passages in the work!  8)   Next: the Violin Concerto!!!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 01:41:35 PM
Thanks to composer/pianist Lera Auerbach on FaceBook: published last June!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qDw75PJaL.jpg)

Quote


Arnold Schoenberg and Thomas Mann, two towering figures of twentieth-century music and literature, both found refuge in the German-exile community in Los Angeles during the Nazi era. This complete edition of their correspondence provides a glimpse inside their private and public lives and culminates in the famous dispute over Mann’s novel Doctor Faustus. In the thick of the controversy was Theodor Adorno, then a budding philosopher, whose contribution to the Faustus affair would make him an enemy of both families. Gathered here for the first time in English, the letters in this essential volume are complemented by diary entries, related articles, and other primary source materials, as well as an introduction by German studies scholar Adrian Daub that contextualizes the impact these two great artists had on twentieth-century thought and culture




https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Faustus-Dossier-Contemporaries-20th-Century-ebook/dp/B07D1LDNRP/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547667850&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Schoenberg%2C%20Adorno%2C%20Mann&fbclid=IwAR2gUA9aqacCRTImqVU6paJBCjndmF9sCLrbrTBN8xqL2HrDEI0bTypGdHE (https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Faustus-Dossier-Contemporaries-20th-Century-ebook/dp/B07D1LDNRP/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547667850&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Schoenberg%2C%20Adorno%2C%20Mann&fbclid=IwAR2gUA9aqacCRTImqVU6paJBCjndmF9sCLrbrTBN8xqL2HrDEI0bTypGdHE)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 16, 2019, 02:17:13 PM
Wonderful
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 02:19:51 PM
Wonderful

Howdy KARL!!!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: André on January 16, 2019, 06:12:05 PM
Thanks to composer/pianist Lera Auerbach on FaceBook: published last June!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qDw75PJaL.jpg)



https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Faustus-Dossier-Contemporaries-20th-Century-ebook/dp/B07D1LDNRP/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547667850&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Schoenberg%2C%20Adorno%2C%20Mann&fbclid=IwAR2gUA9aqacCRTImqVU6paJBCjndmF9sCLrbrTBN8xqL2HrDEI0bTypGdHE (https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Faustus-Dossier-Contemporaries-20th-Century-ebook/dp/B07D1LDNRP/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547667850&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Schoenberg%2C%20Adorno%2C%20Mann&fbclid=IwAR2gUA9aqacCRTImqVU6paJBCjndmF9sCLrbrTBN8xqL2HrDEI0bTypGdHE)

Looks mighty interesting. Thanks for the info!

Footnote: E. Randol Schoenberg is Arnold’s grandson and Luigi Nono’s nephew. A lawyer specialized in looted art recovery, he helped Maria Altmann regain possession of 5 paintings by Gustav Klimt stolen by the nazis. She later sold them for 327 million $. Randol’s fee for his work is reputed to have been 40% of the paintings’ value, enabling him to devote himself to the kind of work he found most rewarding.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2019, 06:19:20 AM
"Randol Schoenberg," I love it,!
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: André on January 17, 2019, 06:31:21 AM
"Randol Schoenberg," I love it,!

Arnold’s son (Randol’s dad) was named Ronald. You get the drift... ;D
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: North Star on January 17, 2019, 06:42:59 AM
I hope there are also Orland and Roland Schoenberg...
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: André on January 17, 2019, 07:09:54 AM
I hope there are also Orland and Roland Schoenberg...

No, the series ends there  :D. His children were Nuria (married to Luigi Nono), Lawrence, Ronald, Georg and Gertrud.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Cato on March 17, 2019, 06:47:07 AM
On a FaceBook site there was a mention of Georg Solti never having conducted Gurrelieder.

An article from the Chicago Tribune 30 years ago said that in his "retirement" he planned to conduct this work, along with others he had never conducted by Prokofiev and Nielsen.

I can find not mention of a performance, recorded or not.  Does anyone have information on this?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: Mandryka on April 12, 2019, 10:29:51 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71c4NDVNLXL._SS500_.jpg)


Just discovered by me, very nice, including the sound.

Recommendations for other recordings of the op 24 serenade appreciated.
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Just came across the Hollywood SQ playing Transfigured Night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqODySSxYpc&t=154s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqODySSxYpc&t=154s)

Is there a more awesome version ?
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: André on June 20, 2019, 08:31:44 AM
5 Pieces op 16. A very interesting 53 minute documentary cum performance with Michael Gielen. Fascinating insights from the conductor and from pianist Charles Rosen.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf2iZgzMXU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf2iZgzMXU)
Title: Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2019, 09:31:47 AM
5 Pieces op 16. A very interesting 53 minute documentary cum performance with Michael Gielen. Fascinating insights from the conductor and from pianist Charles Rosen.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf2iZgzMXU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf2iZgzMXU)

Nice!