What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

[mahler10th]

Woofers can act independently if they have dedicated terminals. A standalone box like a subwoofer will have its own terminals. Bigger speakers typically have multiple sets of terminals allowing for each of their units to be driven independently (e.g. my planar speakers are 2-way and have separate pairs of terminals for the bass panel and the ribbon tweeter).

Many thanks Petrarch.  The 'box' has five outputs for the speakers, five inputs for sound in and two inputs for standard stereo input, and an off on switch.     Are these audio 'inputs' the 'terminals'?

[petrarch]

Many thanks Petrarch.  The 'box' has five outputs for the speakers, five inputs for sound in and two inputs for standard stereo input, and an off on switch.     Are these audio 'inputs' the 'terminals'?

No; the terminals would be in the speakers themselves--it is where you connect the cables.

Here are a couple of examples -

My old ML Vantages:



My current AA Amphitryons:

[bigshot]

There are two types of subwoofers, powered and unpowered. If a regular speaker connection goes to the sub, it's an unpowered sub. If a rca line out goes to the sub, there's an amp in the sub itself. Better subs are self powered. If you're planning on upgrading your existing 5:1 system, I'd suggest prioritizing by replacing the mains first, then the sub and center channel, and the rears last.

[mahler10th]

Thanks you all for your help in this matter.   
I'm going to source some more new hardware as a result, and will post my results here as things tick along.

[NJ Joe]

Picked this up today to put on the floor behind my desk at work.  Logitech S715i.  Portable, remote included, and excellent sound for the money. 

[Fëanor]

Recently I set up dedicated computer to use for scanning my 50 years worth of photo slides and negatives -- this'll keep me out of trouble in my retirement.  However there was no way to listen to music at this workstation, so I looked for a some economical computer speakers.

The limit of what you spend on computer speakers is rather high these days. I would ideally have like a pair of Audioengine 5+, (HERE); nice, but just too expensive for me for this application. So I went for a 2.1 setup, the Eagle Arion ET-AR504LR, (HERE), which I got for $50.



These are fairly decent speakers which, with its subwoofer, is capable of the full normal music frequency range, i.e. down to 40 Hz.  However it was clear to me that their frequency response isn't perfectly smooth.  Fortunately I am able to use the Electri-Q equalizer, (HERE), with in my Foobar2000 music player program, (HERE). The result is very nice and very listenable over extended periods of time.

[Mirror Image]

Now I get why you love Delius.

Didn't even see this! Ha!

[Coopmv]

Recently I set up dedicated computer to use for scanning my 50 years worth of photo slides and negatives -- this'll keep me out of trouble in my retirement.  However there was no way to listen to music at this workstation, so I looked for a some economical computer speakers.

The limit of what you spend on computer speakers is rather high these days. I would ideally have like a pair of Audioengine 5+, (HERE); nice, but just too expensive for me for this application. So I went for a 2.1 setup, the Eagle Arion ET-AR504LR, (HERE), which I got for $50.



These are fairly decent speakers which, with its subwoofer, is capable of the full normal music frequency range, i.e. down to 40 Hz.  However it was clear to me that their frequency response isn't perfectly smooth.  Fortunately I am able to use the Electri-Q equalizer, (HERE), with in my Foobar2000 music player program, (HERE). The result is very nice and very listenable over extended periods of time.

A good boombox from the good old analog days cost a bit more than this unit ...     

[71 dB]

I started to feel like upgrading my 15 years old Denon DCD-735 CD-player.

It has served me well but lately it started to have an issue with the disc tray so
that the tray closes immediately after opening it.

I have always wanted to try NAD's CD-players so I ordered NAD C 565BEE. 

[Coopmv]

I started to feel like upgrading my 15 years old Denon DCD-735 CD-player.

It has served me well but lately it started to have an issue with the disc tray so
that the tray closes immediately after opening it.

I have always wanted to try NAD's CD-players so I ordered NAD C 565BEE. 

I wish you the best luck.  I am a member of an audio forum and quite a few forum members have been having problems with NAD CD/universal players.  I used to be a fan of NAD until a few years ago before it started to make all its products in China ...

[71 dB]

I wish you the best luck.

Thanks! I have had the player for 3 days now. The sound quality is jaw-dropping.  Amazing three-dimensional detailed sound that isn't "digital" or cold but natural and warm.

I seem to prefer the normal 44.1 kHz/16 bit mode over the upsampled 96 kHz/24 bit and 192 kHz/24 bit which sound more "digital" and colder.
The reconstruction filters are harder to tell apart but filters 1, 2 and 5 seems to work better in my system than filters 3 and 4.
The optical input is nice. I connected my TV set to it and got great sound quality for TV programs.

Great CD-player and well worth the 599 euros I paid for it. 

I am a member of an audio forum and quite a few forum members have been having problems with NAD CD/universal players.  I used to be a fan of NAD until a few years ago before it started to make all its products in China ...

I read something about the player not reacting due to a bad patch of connectors. I believe those connectors are easy to replace. NAD products were assembled in Taiwan before China.

[Kontrapunctus]

My next purchase will most likely be this new Marantz AV 8801 pre-amp/processor:





It will replace my current Sony AVR, which I'm using as a pre/pro.

[bigshot]

Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.

[Coopmv]

Thanks! I have had the player for 3 days now. The sound quality is jaw-dropping.  Amazing three-dimensional detailed sound that isn't "digital" or cold but natural and warm.

I seem to prefer the normal 44.1 kHz/16 bit mode over the upsampled 96 kHz/24 bit and 192 kHz/24 bit which sound more "digital" and colder.
The reconstruction filters are harder to tell apart but filters 1, 2 and 5 seems to work better in my system than filters 3 and 4.
The optical input is nice. I connected my TV set to it and got great sound quality for TV programs.

Great CD-player and well worth the 599 euros I paid for it. 

I read something about the player not reacting due to a bad patch of connectors. I believe those connectors are easy to replace. NAD products were assembled in Taiwan before China.

All my NAD equipments were made in Japan, the UK and Denmark.  I gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...

[Coopmv]

My next purchase will most likely be this new Marantz AV 8801 pre-amp/processor:





It will replace my current Sony AVR, which I'm using as a pre/pro.

I cannot deal with this number of RCA jacks ...

[Daverz]

Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.

I can understand where this is coming from, but SS amps do not sound the same to me.  I've never been able to improve the sound of an amp I don't like by simply telling myself that they all sound the same.

[The new erato]

I can understand where this is coming from, but SS amps do not sound the same to me.  I've never been able to improve the sound of an amp I don't like by simply telling myself that they all sound the same.

I agree. If you do believe that SS amp souds the same except for power you are making a big mistake that could be easily rectified by listening to two different amps with similar power output in your rig. I'm not a HiFi nut and couldn't care less about cables and oher assorted esoterica, but I have had my share of kit over the years (currently having 3 amplifiers in daily use, a Rotel integrated and SS power amps from Conrad-Johnson and Nakamichi) and believe me, the differences are plainly obvious. 

[71 dB]

All my NAD equipments were made in Japan, the UK and Denmark.  I gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...

My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

I gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister... 

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?

[Daverz]

Speaking of NAD, their new M51 DAC is very tempting:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC

[71 dB]

Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.

My NAD 302 and NAD T762 do not sound the same. T762 has significantly more control at lower frequencies and the differencies do not end there.

One source of differencies between amplifiers is the output impedance that determines damping factor together with the load (speakers + wires). An amplifer that has more control at bass frequencies may simply have lower output impedance at bass frequencies meaning higher damping factor and better control. Since NAD T762 is 3-4 times more powerful amplifier (in stereo mode) than NAD 302, it has probably been engineered to have lower output impedance at lower frequencies.

Whatever the reasons are, amplifiers don't seem to sound exactly the same.

[Coopmv]

My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister... 

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?

I usually have 6 or 7 CD players at my house.  I do have an NAD S500i SilverLine CDP, made in Denmark.  SilverLine was the NAD premier line back in mid 2000's.

[Coopmv]

I agree. If you do believe that SS amp souds the same except for power you are making a big mistake that could be easily rectified by listening to two different amps with similar power output in your rig. I'm not a HiFi nut and couldn't care less about cables and oher assorted esoterica, but I have had my share of kit over the years (currently having 3 amplifiers in daily use, a Rotel integrated and SS power amps from Conrad-Johnson and Nakamichi) and believe me, the differences are plainly obvious.

Very expensive audio cables are just snake oil IMO ...

[Coopmv]

My NAD 302 and NAD T762 do not sound the same. T762 has significantly more control at lower frequencies and the differencies do not end there.

One source of differencies between amplifiers is the output impedance that determines damping factor together with the load (speakers + wires). An amplifer that has more control at bass frequencies may simply have lower output impedance at bass frequencies meaning higher damping factor and better control. Since NAD T762 is 3-4 times more powerful amplifier (in stereo mode) than NAD 302, it has probably been engineered to have lower output impedance at lower frequencies.

Whatever the reasons are, amplifiers don't seem to sound exactly the same.

Agree.  My Tandberg 3003 and the two Conrad Johnson amps have a touch of tube sound to them compared with other amps and I have owned many amps over the years but am seriously considering either a SS class-A amp or a tube amp for my study ...

[71 dB]

I usually have 6 or 7 CD players at my house.

Oh dear... ...I take it you have a large house? One CD player for each room?

The NAD C 565BEE is my third CD player. The first one was a crappy JVC (bought 1990). The second was Denon DCD-735 (bought 1998).

I do have an NAD S500i SilverLine CDP, made in Denmark.  SilverLine was the NAD premier line back in mid 2000's.

I remember those. Dreamed about owning that stuff...  Well, I suppose C 565BEE doesn't sound much worse that S500i, even if it is manufactured in Taiwan instead of Denmark.

[Coopmv]

Oh dear... ...I take it you have a large house? One CD player for each room?

The NAD C 565BEE is my third CD player. The first one was a crappy JVC (bought 1990). The second was Denon DCD-735 (bought 1998).

I remember those. Dreamed about owning that stuff...  Well, I suppose C 565BEE doesn't sound much worse that S500i, even if it is manufactured in Taiwan instead of Denmark.

Here are my current CDP's

Rega Planet 2000
Anthem CD1 (tube-based)
NAD S500i
Sony C75ES circa 1992
Philips 820 CD recorder/player
Yamaha DVD S1800 universal player

I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...

[petrarch]

I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...

It depends on the rest of the system and your room...

[The new erato]

Mine:

A Pioneer PD-S05 CD (relegated to my cabin outside town)
Wadia 302 CD for my music room
Sony XA5400ES CD/SACD for my music room
Sony NS 9000 ES CD/DVD/SACD for the living room

[Coopmv]

I would buy an SACD or universal player from Rega in a heart beat.  Unfortunately, the Rega management somehow does not believe in that format in much the same way it stuck with its primary business of turntables and did not produce their first CDP until the mid 90's.  Rega still builds all its equipments in its UK plants and I like that ...

[71 dB]

Here are my current CDP's

Rega Planet 2000
Anthem CD1 (tube-based)
NAD S500i
Sony C75ES circa 1992
Philips 820 CD recorder/player
Yamaha DVD S1800 universal player

I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...

Since you list a DVD player, I can mention I have:

Denon DVD-1000 DVD-player (my first DVD player bought 2001)
Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player (region free, SACD support)
Cambridge Audio azur 650BD Blu-ray player (region free, SACD support/ HDCD decoding)

[Coopmv]

Since you list a DVD player, I can mention I have:

Denon DVD-1000 DVD-player (my first DVD player bought 2001)
Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player (region free, SACD support)
Cambridge Audio azur 650BD Blu-ray player (region free, SACD support/ HDCD decoding)

It is actually a universal player even though its model number is prefixed by DVD.  I have been playing my DVD's on my computer since the last full-sized DVD/VHS combo player broke a few years ago.  My universal player is only attached to my preamp and is not attached to a TV monitor via its HDMI connection.  I only use it to listen to my SACD collection ...

[DavidW]

I did pull the trigger on the Polk Audio Lsi7's last week.  They are much better than my glaringly bright monitor towers from the same brand.  My new bookshelves fill the space in my room better (impressive soundstage) and they sound as detailed as my headphones.  Actually they sound better than any of my headphones.  I'm very pleased.

[Karl Henning]

Hoy, a Davey sighting! : )

[mahler10th]

I was reading Harrys post on how he is slimming down his gargantuan CD collection and moving into 'Streaming' over time.  I was inspired to post this, my setup for digital files.  Normal CD's are played through the cd unit, but almost everything other than my fine and always growing CD collection is still digitized, on a hard drive as illustrated.



These pictures are accurate of my setup, but of course not to scale.

[DavidW]

I've tried streaming on the Apple TV. But for some reason the music sounds really bright compared to playing the cd. I also don't like the idea of streaming. I would rather have something that doesn't require a network, something that you could just plug an external hd into.

[Coopmv]

My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister... 

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?

I have not asked her, but that was at least a half dozen years ago.  It was not about being rich, it was more like I had to make room for a new CDP since I have always had multiple CDP's at the same time ...

[Daverz]

I thought my beloved AT33PTG cartridge was starting to wear out, so I spent the day rooting around in my closet and wrestling with cartridge setup.   I've had the Dynavector above for years, but have only put a dozen or so hours on it.  I'm really impressed with how quiet the Dynavector is in the groove, but it doesn't sound as open as the AT33 did.  I probably have to futz some more with the setup.

[The new erato]

I thought my beloved AT33PTG cartridge was starting to wear out, so I spent the day rooting around in my closet and wrestling with cartridge setup.   I've had the Dynavector above for years, but have only put a dozen or so hours on it.  I'm really impressed with how quiet the Dynavector is in the groove, but it doesn't sound as open as the AT33 did.  I probably have to futz some more with the setup.

It also probably need more than a dozen hours of playing to open up.

[Daverz]

It also probably need more than a dozen hours of playing to open up.

I hope so.  I have it loaded at 50 Ohms right now, which may be a bit too low (though Dynavector specifies 30 Ohms and up).

...finally gave up on the Dynavector.  It might be that I had a bum one to begin with, or maybe sitting in the closet for several years was not good for it, but I couldn't get the bass dialed in right.  It always sounded slow, loagy, and dull.  And I may have just needed to redo the setup of the AT33, because now it sounds better than ever.

[Mirror Image]

I've been eyeballing this gorgeous CD player:



All you need to know about it is here: http://www.brennan.co.uk

[Fëanor]

If you're looking for an inexpensive DAC for your computer system, I can recommend the Schiit Audio MODI, US$99; (yeah, cute name; no affiliation). See HERE.




It has remarkably good sound for that buck: very "musical" as some audiophiles express it.  That is, a smooth yet still detailed and spacious sound. The obvious major limitation is USB input only.

I have owned a number of cheap DACs, most from eBay sources. A notable one was the SMSL SD-1955, (e.g. HERE); a crisp, detailed sound but high frequencies are a bit too aggressive.

...

But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

[jlaurson]

I prefer my audio equipment to be strictly Wahabi.

[Fëanor]

I prefer my audio equipment to be strictly Wahabi.

   

[Coopmv]

If you're looking for an inexpensive DAC for your computer system, I can recommend the Schiit Audio MODI, US$99; (yeah, cute name; no affiliation). See HERE.




It has remarkably good sound for that buck: very "musical" as some audiophiles express it.  That is, a smooth yet still detailed and spacious sound. The obvious major limitation is USB input only.

I have owned a number of cheap DACs, most from eBay sources. A notable one was the SMSL SD-1955, (e.g. HERE); a crisp, detailed sound but high frequencies are a bit too aggressive.

...

But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

I live love it - made in USA ...

[Daverz]

http://www.youtube.com/v/l1dnqKGuezo

[Todd]

I've never owned a subwoofer before, but I figured it was time to get one.  I read up on quite a few, and ended up settling on the SVS SB13 Ultra.  Right size, nice price for the features, and decent enough looking for a big black cube.  This will be set up in my "home theater" (ie, soon to be 2.1 system in the family room), but I have a sneaking suspicion an organ recording or five may end up being run through this bad boy.

[Fëanor]

...
But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

My Schiit Bifrost DAC arrive and has been in service now for a week. It's great: best improvement I've made in my system is a long time.

The thing has far exceeded my expectations, (for that sort of money). Resolution & transparency are outstanding -- instruments & voice are palpable, like real performers in a real space. Even more unexpected is the microdynamics, what we audiophiles often call "PRaT", i.e. pace, rhythm, and timing being an analogy to the performance characteristics: percussion instruments, including piano, are a revelation.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

I find the optional USB interface, (which I got), to be superior to the S/PDIF, but that might only be particular to my computer, etc..

[Coopmv]

My Schiit Bifrost DAC arrive and had been in service now for a week. It's great: best improvement I've made in my system is a long time.

The thing has far exceeded my expectations, (for the kind of money that it is). Resolution & transparency are outstanding -- instruments & voice are palpable, like real performers in a real space. Even more unexpected is the microdynamics, what we audiophiles often call "PRaT", i.e. pace, rhythm, and timing being an analogy to the performance characteristics: percussion instruments, including piano, are a revelation.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

I find the optional USB interface which I got to be superior to the S/PDIF, but that might only be particular to my computer, etc..

If I read the label on the back panel correctly, the unit was also made in the US ...

[Todd]

If I read the label on the back panel correctly, the unit was also made in the US ...

Yep, Schiit is American made, and affordable.  (Of course, some/many/most/all [?] of the internal components are not American made.)  I've had the Asgard headphone amp for a couple years, and it is very fine, indeed, though I prefer my Woo Audio, which is also American made - in New York City of all places.

[Coopmv]

Yep, Schiit is American made, and affordable.  (Of course, some/many/most/all [?] of the internal components are not American made.)  I've had the Asgard headphone amp for a couple years, and it is very fine, indeed, though I prefer my Woo Audio, which is also American made - in New York City of all places.

I think Grado and Ohm are both located in Brooklyn, NY since their founding ...

[Kontrapunctus]

Schiit...Asgard...sounds like an anal fixation to me! 

[Coopmv]

Schiit...Asgard...sounds like an anal fixation to me! 

I have heard of the brand but this is the first time I actually 'know' someone who has the DAC ...

If you have a CD transport or a quality CDP, a DAC may be the most economic way to upgrade the sound ...

[Geo Dude]

At this point the only listening systems I have available are an iPod, a laptop, and my main 'system', a $60 boombox I've had for about ten years.

If anyone has any tips--and keep in mind that I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff--I'd love to find something entry level to replace the boombox with.  A good 'musical' sound is nice, but at this point I'm fine with any reasonably small system that doesn't turn into a distorted mess any time a piano or brass instrument is involved.

[Parsifal]

At this point the only listening systems I have available are an iPod, a laptop, and my main 'system', a $60 boombox I've had for about ten years.

If anyone has any tips--and keep in mind that I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff--I'd love to find something entry level to replace the boombox with.  A good 'musical' sound is nice, but at this point I'm fine with any reasonably small system that doesn't turn into a distorted mess any time a piano or brass instrument is involved.

I'd suggest enhancing your iPod and laptop with a modest headphone amp, and a nice pair of over-ear headphones.

For the amp, one possibility is

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-total-bithead.php

which would work with iPod or computer.  www.headphone.com also has lots of information about headphones.

[Geo Dude]

I've looked into that in the past but right now I'm interested in a system with speakers that I can run independent of the laptop.  That said, thanks for the link, I'll bookmark it for future reference when I'm looking to upgrade my headphone listening.

[Geo Dude]

I've bookmarked that for future reference, thanks.  Right now I'm looking for an independent set up to replace the boombox, though.

[Parsifal]

The answer is going to depend on what you are willing to spend.  I get the impression you don't want to spend a lot.  For me the minimum system for listening to classical would be a basic CD player ($150) a stereo amplifier or receiver ($200) and a pair of bookshelf speakers ($300).  Anything less, and I'd restrict myself to headphones, which would give good sound quality for a lot less money.  You can also use a DVD player to play CDs.

I'd also suggest starting your investigation with a site like crutchfield.com, which vets what they carry to meet some reasonable standard of quality.  (There is a lot of consumer grade stuff which is designed to look good, not sound good.)

If you gave me 60 seconds to pick a bare-bones system from crutchfield, I'd pick
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TX8255/Onkyo-TX-8255.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580C7030/Onkyo-C-7030.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065A25B/Boston-Acoustics-A-25.html

[Fëanor]

The answer is going to depend on what you are willing to spend.  I get the impression you don't want to spend a lot.  For me the minimum system for listening to classical would be a basic CD player ($150) a stereo amplifier or receiver ($200) and a pair of bookshelf speakers ($300).  Anything less, and I'd restrict myself to headphones, which would give good sound quality for a lot less money.  You can also use a DVD player to play CDs.

I'd also suggest starting your investigation with a site like crutchfield.com, which vets what they carry to meet some reasonable standard of quality.  (There is a lot of consumer grade stuff which is designed to look good, not sound good.)

If you gave me 60 seconds to pick a bare-bones system from crutchfield, I'd pick
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TX8255/Onkyo-TX-8255.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580C7030/Onkyo-C-7030.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065A25B/Boston-Acoustics-A-25.html

This is sound advice for a basic system and would be distinct step up from a "boombox".  I must mention, though, that small speakers of this sort don't have the bass frequencies extension to cover the whole instrument range since their low frequency cut-off is too high. In the A25 case, 55 Hz.   It's much better to have system that will go down to 40 Hz which will cover most instruments.

A reasonable approach is too buy a basic system like the above (more or less) and later add a powered subwoofer. A basic subwoofer might be $250+. In the case of the Onkyo TX-8255 I caution that it doesn't have a Subwoofer or stereo pair of "line level" connections to drive a subwoofer -- granted this is a very basic receiver.  Some subwoofers permit a "high level", i.e. main speaker-type connection but the results are likely to be inferior to a line level connections.

Another highly reputable US-based online vendor is Audio Advisor.

The following would be a pricier but significant upgrade over the system above. I added a subwoofer as the last item:

PSB Image B5 Bookshelf Speakers
Cambridge Audio Topaz SR10 Receiver
Cambridge Audio Topaz CD10 CD Player
PSB Sub Series 125 Subwoofer

[Geo Dude]

Parsifal, thank you for the help.  If that's the sort of starting cost I'm looking at I'm perfectly willing to save up and pay it.  I'll take a look around crutchfield and take any other advice I can get.

[Parsifal]

Parsifal, thank you for the help.  If that's the sort of starting cost I'm looking at I'm perfectly willing to save up and pay it.  I'll take a look around crutchfield and take any other advice I can get.

Glad to be of help.  I should point out that I don't specifically endorse those particular products, but that would be the general configuration and price range for a basic system. 

I agree with the suggestion above that a sub-woofer might be a subsequent addition.  You can add a subwoofer even if there is no dedicated subwoofer output on the amplifier.  I use a subwoofer (Polk audio) with some larger bookshelf speakers, and the speaker signal is passed through the subwoofer, which detects and amplifies the bass portion of the signal.

[Geo Dude]

Understood.  Thank you Feanor, too.  In any case, I have a subwoofer lying around (long story, I unfortunately do not know what model/brand it is, though) that will probably be of use when I can get the other parts together.

[Todd]

I have a pair of custom speakers on order from Salk Sound which should be done in the next week or two, but in the interim I snagged these one-of-a-kind speakers direct from Dennis Murphy, the dude who designs Salk's crossovers (including mine), and has his own speaker line called Philharmonic Audio.  They are an updated version of the ACI Sapphire IIIs.  The main driver is the same Focal Kevlar woofer as the ACI, but the tweeter is the insanely bargain priced Vifa XT25 - $35-ish a pop for a frequency response curve that even some $400-a-pop tweeters can't match.  (The HD is perhaps not as good as some uber-high end tweets, but hey, the CSD is pretty freakin' sweet, too.) 

Anyway, these speakers have no real bass (cutoff is around 60 Hz), but from that point up they are superb.  I've listened to a number of discs and radio broadcasts, and I have nary a complaint.  A guitar and flute sonata (can't recall the composer right now), sounded smooth and supremely clear.  Sure, they can't play loud, and when I heard Massive Attack's Angel on the radio, the lack of bass induced a chuckle (it was unfair to listen to that song), but limits aside, these bad boys are among the biggest bargain I've stumbled across.  Since it is literally the only pair in existence, I count myself very lucky.  The super bargain price ($275 for speakers with components topping $200 in my estimation) just adds to the overall good feeling.  A chamber music fan's dream come true, I tell ya'. 

[Fëanor]

...
I have a pair of custom speakers on order from Salk Sound which should be done in the next week or two, but in the interim I snagged these one-of-a-kind speakers direct from Dennis Murphy, the dude who designs Salk's crossovers (including mine), and has his own speaker line called Philharmonic Audio.  They are an updated version of the ACI Sapphire IIIs.  The main driver is the same Focal Kevlar woofer as the ACI, but the tweeter is the insanely bargain priced Vifa XT25 - $35-ish a pop for a frequency response curve that even some $400-a-pop tweeters can't match.  (The HD is perhaps not as good as some uber-high end tweets, but hey, the CSD is pretty freakin' sweet, too.) 

Anyway, these speakers have no real bass (cutoff is around 60 Hz), but from that point up they are superb.  I've listened to a number of discs and radio broadcasts, and I have nary a complaint.  A guitar and flute sonata (can't recall the composer right now), sounded smooth and supremely clear.  Sure, they can't play loud, and when I heard Massive Attack's Angel on the radio, the lack of bass induced a chuckle (it was unfair to listen to that song), but limits aside, these bad boys are among the biggest bargain I've stumbled across.  Since it is literally the only pair in existence, I count myself very lucky.  The super bargain price ($275 for speakers with components topping $200 in my estimation) just adds to the overall good feeling.  A chamber music fan's dream come true, I tell ya'.

Sounds good, Todd. And they seems like a bargain.  The bass difficiency will be solved by use of a subwoofer. So, potentially, will be the loudness issue.

The ideal way to use the subwoofer is to have it carry all the sound below 80 Hz. You get this if you can use a low-pass filter to send the sub sound below 80 Hz and (N.B.) a high-pass filter that will send your main speakers only sound above 80 Hz.  The Salks will play louder without distortion because they won't have to try to reproduce the lowest notes. Unfortunately obtaining the high-pass filter can be a problem; most subwoofers provide only the low-pass filter they require, and most integrated amps and preamps  don't provide the high-pass as feature.

[Todd]

After much contemplation, and a decent amount of time perusing the measurements on the Zaph audio site, I decided that the best solution for my last pair of floorstanding speakers for many years (barring a massive influx of heretofore unidentified cash) would be to go for a custom design.  I wanted maximum bass output, dynamic headroom, and overall clarity from the smallest possible speaker.  Seas Excel W16 woofers to the rescue - they have the same xmax as the 10" Excel drivers.  (I contemplated the equally impressive ScanSpeak Illuminators, but the T/S parameters bump up against MLTL limits from what I have read, and I didn't want a standard ported design.)  I also opted for an "exotic" finish (quilted maple with a double dye process).  My current speakers use the W15s, so sonically, they are just a bit thinner sounding than what will be arriving at my door on Tuesday.  I kept the insanely good RAAL ribbon tweeter - I just can't go back to domes for long term listening.  Salk Sound may add this design to their product offerings.  If my expectations are met - and both of the other pairs of Salks I have bought exceeded expectations - I'll be a happy camper.  They took three months to build from order to delivery, but that's fine by me.

[HIPster]

Thanks for the update and photos, Todd.

Absolutely gorgeous finish on those speakers.

I look forward to further posts on listening to those beauties once they are up and running.

Congrats!

[Fëanor]

...
I wanted maximum bass output, dynamic headroom, and overall clarity from the smallest possible speaker.  Seas Excel W16 woofers to the rescue - they have the same xmax as the 10" Excel drivers.  (I contemplated the equally impressive ScanSpeak Illuminators, but the T/S parameters bump up against MLTL limits from what I have read, and I didn't want a standard ported design.)  I also opted for an "exotic" finish (quilted maple with a double dye process).  My current speakers use the W15s, so sonically, they are just a bit thinner sounding than what will be arriving at my door on Tuesday.  I kept the insanely good RAAL ribbon tweeter - I just can't go back to domes for long term listening.  Salk Sound may add this design to their product offerings.  If my expectations are met - and both of the other pairs of Salks I have bought exceeded expectations - I'll be a happy camper.  They took three months to build from order to delivery, but that's fine by me.

So I guess those are the Salk SongTower Supercharged? Congrats! No doubt they are great.

It's interesting that their transmission line design permits placement closer to the walls without the usual issues. (see HERE)

[Todd]

So I guess those are the Salk SongTower Supercharged? Congrats! No doubt they are great.

They are more like Supercharged Supercharged SongTowers.  Jim is looking for a new name, and will probably put them in the Veracity line.  The standard SCST uses W15s; those are what I currently use in my main system.

[marvinbrown]

  Dear all,

I need help. So please help.  I am 40 years old and have grown up listening to cassettes and now CDs/mp3/AAC files. I am now seriously thinking of getting a turntable.  Why? Well, I have been hearing (pun intended) how much better analogue recordings sound than their digital counterparts and I am intrigued. Yes I know about the pops and clicks but if the sound is considerably better (IE more alive, more like the real perfromance) then I would like to investigate further.  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment? Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin

[The new erato]

Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin

Only you can tell. But be aware that there ARE differences between CD players and DACS, and that the serious stuff can make a significant difference also in the digital domain.

[marvinbrown]

Only you can tell. But be aware that there ARE differences between CD players and DACS, and that the serious stuff can make a significant difference also in the digital domain.

  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin
 

[The new erato]

  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin

Analog sound can be amazingly realistic. As can digital sound, given that things are done right. What wins out for me is the convenience, availability and price of digital music vs vinyl. Getting an LP player to sound right requires somededication, and for me it seems that it requires some interest in the medium in addition to the interest in the music. As I said - whether it is right for you is difficult to tell. I have 1000 LPs and a LP player, but never use them. But I also have a 4000 USD digital rig, as well as a couple of  CD/SACD players at around half that price.

[jlaurson]

  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin

I am convinced that the overwhelming part of why vinyl sounds better than digital formats do is psychological -- namely found in the reason that the very act of taking a vinyl out, placing it on the turn table, placing the needle, putting the LP cover off to the side, and sitting down -- that this ritual focuses the mind, enhanced concentration, and therefore gives the impression of better sound, thanks too the much keener listening that results. It's really the same as decanting a red wine (instead of having it on tap in boxes) or the stuffing of a pipe instead of the quick cigarette...

[marvinbrown]

Analog sound can be amazingly realistic. As can digital sound, given that things are done right. What wins out for me is the convenience, availability and price of digital music vs vinyl. Getting an LP player to sound right requires somededication, and for me it seems that it requires some interest in the medium in addition to the interest in the music. As I said - whether it is right for you is difficult to tell. I have 1000 LPs and a LP player, but never use them. But I also have a 4000 USD digital rig, as well as a couple of  CD/SACD players at around half that price.

  I hear what you say about convenience.  If I am going to entertain vinyl further it will probably be for recordings that mean the most to me- the one's I like best. You have a superb setup by the way (nice pictures on your link). It far exceeds anything I'll ever have.  I was struck by how you have 1000 LPs but never use them.  This is a clear indication to me that the "vinyl" sound is not all it is cracked up to be. Anyway, I will experiment, vinly records can be had for £1 at my local oxfam.  I figured it would be worth a shot.  thank you so much for your feedback.

I am convinced that the overwhelming part of why vinyl sounds better than digital formats do is psychological -- namely found in the reason that the very act of taking a vinyl out, placing it on the turn table, placing the needle, putting the LP cover off to the side, and sitting down -- that this ritual focuses the mind, enhanced concentration, and therefore gives the impression of better sound, thanks too the much keener listening that results. It's really the same as decanting a red wine (instead of having it on tap in boxes) or the stuffing of a pipe instead of the quick cigarette...

  Talk about "romanticizing" an experience!  Nice post btw.

  marvin

[Todd]

But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl

Vinyl sounds warmer and has more distortion than digital.  Which one sounds better is purely a matter of preference.  For classical, I generally find digital better, though string quartets sound superb, and some piano recordings are quite good.  Vinyl works better for much rock and jazz.  The biggest drawback is selection: very few new recordings are released on LP. 

[The new erato]

Vinyl sounds warmer and has more distortion than digital.  Which one sounds better is purely a matter of preference.   The biggest drawback is selection: very few new recordings are released on LP.

My opinion exactly. Remember: even harmonics are very musical and may be the reason some people prefer vinyl and tubes - which have lots of them. You have to work out what works for you.

[Fëanor]

  Dear all,

I need help. So please help.  I am 40 years old and have grown up listening to cassettes and now CDs/mp3/AAC files. I am now seriously thinking of getting a turntable.  Why? Well, I have been hearing (pun intended) how much better analogue recordings sound than their digital counterparts and I am intrigued. Yes I know about the pops and clicks but if the sound is considerably better (IE more alive, more like the real perfromance) then I would like to investigate further.  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment? Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin

If you're a mainly a classical listener, stick to CD where the selection is many times greater.  People who argue for vinyl and are also classical listeners most often have large LP collections that date back to 1990 & earlier when LP was still the prevalent medium.

Does LP sound better?  Well read what others have said here.  Personally I say it doesn't if you have good reproduction equipment, (though LP sounds different so there is matter of simple preference).

For several years now I buy most of my music on CD but rip it immediately to lossless computer files, (FLAC or ALAC), and listen exclusively from my dedicated music computer. Basically I never listen to actual "silver discs" any more. Note that good external DACs can sound much, much better than the standard, build-in computer DACs, (the ubiquitous Realtek audio chips).

Becoming more common are CD-quality and even higher resolution downloads; such downloads might eventually displace "silver discs" but for now physical CDs offer by far the greatest selection. SACD, (also silver disc), is an option for the classical listener though a special SACD player is necessary and, again, the selection is much smaller than CD.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment?

Marvin - that's the turntable I just got. I can't compare turntables, but I can tell you I'm fairly hooked on vinyl now. 

[marvinbrown]

  Dear All,

  First of all I would like to thank everyone here for contributing to the discussion.  I very much appreciate all of your inputs and I am very gratefull to you all.  As I understand it now, vinyl sounds "different" and "different" is not necessarily "better" ( IE a more accurate life sounding sound).  "Better" sound comes from mastering techniques.  But more importantly, the more I am researching vinyl the more I am concerned about the added "work" that will be required to clean and maintain records, flip records over (Wagner's Ring for example is on 22 double sided records, which means that I am going to have to get up 43 times after side 1), replace cartridges which costs money...and then there is the issue of it degrading with every playback, rewind and fastforward also become issues....oh dear.................. That said I am not prepared to close the door on vinyl just yet, I need to hear a demonstration first.  I have scheduled one this Friday. I am trying to be as open minded as I possible can about this.

   PS: It is not my intention to leave the CD/digital domain. Oh no, I have invested heavily in this medium, but if there is something additional that vinyl could add, why not?

  marvin

 

[The new erato]

I think you are going about this the right way.

[Fëanor]

  Dear All,

  First of all I would like to thank everyone here for contributing to the discussion.  I very much appreciate all of your inputs and I am very gratefull to you all.  As I understand it now, vinyl sounds "different" and "different" is not necessarily "better" ( IE a more accurate life sounding sound).  "Better" sound comes from mastering techniques.  But more importantly, the more I am researching vinyl the more I am concerned about the added "work" that will be required to clean and maintain records, flip records over (Wagner's Ring for example is on 22 double sided records, which means that I am going to have to get up 43 times after side 1), replace cartridges which costs money...and then there is the issue of it degrading with every playback, rewind and fastforward also become issues....oh dear.................. That said I am not prepared to close the door on vinyl just yet, I need to hear a demonstration first.  I have scheduled one this Friday. I am trying to be as open minded as I possible can about this.

   PS: It is not my intention to leave the CD/digital domain. Oh no, I have invested heavily in this medium, but if there is something additional that vinyl could add, why not?

  marvin

Frankly the "work" as you accurately refer to it, was a big factor that send me to CD in the mid '80s, not the sound, nor the selection at the time. Others were the finite life time of LPs.

However quite a few vinyl lovers perversely love the rituals of LP handling and turntable tuning -- go figure.  I can't even stand physical CD handling any more: give me point & click.

A "last straw" for me was the time I accidentally smashed a $500 cartridge the first time I used it.   

[marvinbrown]

A "last straw" for me was the time I accidentally smashed a $500 cartridge the first time I used it.   

  Ouch! I am so sorry to hear about that.  I have heard that cartdriges tend to be a bit fragile.  I didn't think they were THAT fragile.

Marvin - that's the turntable I just got. I can't compare turntables, but I can tell you I'm fairly hooked on vinyl now. 

  Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

  marvin

[The new erato]

    Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

  marvin

I think we'tre talking lifetimes in the 1000 of hours here, 6 months seems absurdly short (and I was an avid vinyl spinner back in the days).

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

No. I've only had it a month, and the guy at the audio store told me it had a useful life of 500-1000 hours. So I'm expecting to replace it about once a year.

BTW a nice thing about the Pro-Ject is that it comes with the cartridge already mounted.

[Parsifal]

I think we'tre talking lifetimes in the 1000 of hours here, 6 months seems absurdly short (and I was an avid vinyl spinner back in the days).

The cartridge never has to be replaced, unless the stylus is not replacable these days.

[marvinbrown]

  without prejudice

  Dear all,

  As some of you know I have been considering buying a turntable and starting a vinyl collection. Yesterday after work, I booked a demonstration at the local Hifi shop. I wanted to do a comparison between a vinyl record and its CD counterpart. The record I picked was Karajan's Die Meistersinger von Nuremberg (Dresden) on EMI. I bought a used copy of this in very good condition. I have the CD of this recording in my collection. The set up was the system I have at home: Marantz PM6004 CD and amp and monitor audio speakers. The turntable used was the Project Debut Carbon. I kept alternating between vinyl and CD.

  Conclusions: the CD sounded " brighter" and"crisper" but more importantly CLEARER than the vinyl. The vinyl had more depth but clarity and dynamic range were not as impressive as the CD. The occasional static on the vinyl annoyed the hell out of me. I found myself drawn more to the CDs clarity more than anything else. The more I listened the less I was impressed with the vinyl. Needless to say, I did not buy the Project Debit Carbon Turntable.

  marvin

[Parsifal]

Your experience is similar to mine.  The lower distortion/increased clarity of CD is the overriding factor.  There are cases where the LP "sounds better" than the CD, but normally that is because the frequency equalization has been messed up and the CD sounds too bright.  It used to happen a lot in the early days of remastering, probably because the producer were anxious to show that the analog recordings sounded better on CD and making them brighter made them seem more "digital."  But in case of over-bright remastering jobs the situations can normally be remedied using the tone control or an equalizer.

[Fëanor]

Your experience is similar to mine.  The lower distortion/increased clarity of CD is the overriding factor.  There are cases where the LP "sounds better" than the CD, but normally that is because the frequency equalization has been messed up and the CD sounds too bright.  It used to happen a lot in the early days of remastering, probably because the producer were anxious to show that the analog recordings sounded better on CD and making them brighter made them seem more "digital."  But in case of over-bright remastering jobs the situations can normally be remedied using the tone control or an equalizer.

In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurately flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural level while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.

[Parsifal]

In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurate, flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.

My experience is similar, although it varies by label and by individual recording.  Telarc recordings generally sound the most naturally equalized to me (except early Telarc which made every piece sound like a bass-drum concerto).  Teldec, MDG and BIS are generally not as bad as most, in my experience. 

[mc ukrneal]

Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music? I do not currently have any surround sound, but as our tv is old, we have been considering a new one. If we get a new one, we were thinking of getting a surround sound system as well. If we do that, I was wondering how well (if at all) these systems would do for classical music. It only occurred to me because the system would be in the main room, and it would be nice to hear music through the whole house sometimes.

[71 dB]

Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music?

Of course there is. In fact I think classical music is one of the few areas where multichannel recordings (SACDs etc.) work well.

For movie soundtracks subwoofers are important (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but for music a system without subwoofer works well if the main speaker can deliver enough bass. I have a compromise of these two: a passive subwoofer that extents the bass of my main speakers that are identical with my center and surrouns speakers (that's a 5.(1) setup). For good results the center speaker must be identical with main speakers except for the lowest frequencies that can be re-directed (functional bass management must be supported!). Not only frequency response but also phase-response must match. Using 3 identical front speakers is simple solution. Even better if rear-speakers are identical too. Since the center speaker is often placed acoustically differently from main speakers, there usually is a need to adjust response. My center speaker is lower (under tv) so I cut frequencies below 300 Hz a bit to balance stronger floor effect.

Good surround system is not always easy to install. Too many compromises makes it waste of money and investing into a really good stereo system instead might be a good idea.   

[mc ukrneal]

Of course there is. In fact I think classical music is one of the few areas where multichannel recordings (SACDs etc.) work well.

For movie soundtracks subwoofers are important (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but for music a system without subwoofer works well if the main speaker can deliver enough bass. I have a compromise of these two: a passive subwoofer that extents the bass of my main speakers that are identical with my center and surrouns speakers (that's a 5.(1) setup). For good results the center speaker must be identical with main speakers except for the lowest frequencies that can be re-directed (functional bass management must be supported!). Not only frequency response but also phase-response must match. Using 3 identical front speakers is simple solution. Even better if rear-speakers are identical too. Since the center speaker is often placed acoustically differently from main speakers, there usually is a need to adjust response. My center speaker is lower (under tv) so I cut frequencies below 300 Hz a bit to balance stronger floor effect.

Good surround system is not always easy to install. Too many compromises makes it waste of money and investing into a really good stereo system instead might be a good idea.   

Actually, I like this idea. I am sure my wife would dislike cables/wires intensely, and the supposed 'wireless' systems are not truly wireless. I understand the regular stereo system better too and hiding components or picking more stylish pieces will be easier (I think). 

[Parsifal]

Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music? I do not currently have any surround sound, but as our tv is old, we have been considering a new one. If we get a new one, we were thinking of getting a surround sound system as well. If we do that, I was wondering how well (if at all) these systems would do for classical music. It only occurred to me because the system would be in the main room, and it would be nice to hear music through the whole house sometimes.

The main thing is not to buy a system that describes itself as "home theater."  In such systems, neutral reproduction of sound is not the goal.  The goal is that when a bomb goes off in the movie your house should be knocked off its foundation.

Find speakers that have a reputation for good music reproduction and simply buy 5 of them instead of 2.  In most cases, the company will make a center-channel version of the speaker than you can use the the center channel.  (Typcially the shape is more appropriate for center placement and the bass response is not as good.)  For the amplifier, restrict yourself to brands that have a reputation for audiophile sound (Marantz, NAD, Yamaha, etc).

My own experience is that there are not so many multichannel recordings available, and if you have a finite budget it is better to get 2 really good speakers than 5 middling speakers.

[Daverz]

  Conclusions: the CD sounded " brighter" and"crisper" but more importantly CLEARER than the vinyl. The vinyl had more depth but clarity and dynamic range were not as impressive as the CD. The occasional static on the vinyl annoyed the hell out of me. I found myself drawn more to the CDs clarity more than anything else. The more I listened the less I was impressed with the vinyl. Needless to say, I did not buy the Project Debit Carbon Turntable.

I don't doubt it for a second.  I'll almost always choose an EMI CD over the Lp, though there are cases where they mucked up their transfers (e.g. Callas).  In particular, the EMI Lps pressed in the US by Capitol (Angel) were often crap.  UK pressed Lps were always smoother and quieter sounding.  Of course an Angel copy is often all you can find in the US these days.  Also records need to be cleaned, even if they look pristine.  And I don't really think much of these entry level turntables, particularly for orchestral music.  None of this is an argument for the superiority of Lps, of course.  The reason for getting a turntable is that you have records you want to listen to.

That said, a well made Lp in good condition can sound wonderful on good equipment.

My hypotheses on why some people prefer Lps:

* Compression was used in the mastering and cutting process.  This adds "presence" and makes the dynamic range more manageable in the average domestic listening room.
* Much of the music was recorded for Lp in mind.
* Exclusivity.  CD brought "hi-fi" to the masses.  You didn't need to know how to align a cartridge to get the best sound.  There was nothing to adjust at all.
* Lp playback can be fun, in a geeky way.  It's more tactile.
* Early CD players sounded terrible.  DACs have improved a lot in just the past decade.
* Many vinyl fans listen to to music where surface noise -- noise that would be bothersome in a quiet orchestral passage -- is well below the volume level of the music.
* Nostalgia.  Even people who were born in the digital era are affected by this.

[71 dB]

The main thing is not to buy a system that describes itself as "home theater."  In such systems, neutral reproduction of sound is not the goal.  The goal is that when a bomb goes off in the movie your house should be knocked off its foundation.

Cheap supermarket systems call themselves "home theater". You don't get earthquake bass out of those tiny boxes. Real subwoofers and neutral sound aren't exclusive. Movie soundtracks contain ridiculous bass bursts, so a house knocked off it foundations is only part of neutral sound reproduction.  If you want to keep your house in place, buy a smaller subwoofer, turn the volume down or watch old movies without bass.

Find speakers that have a reputation for good music reproduction and simply buy 5 of them instead of 2.

Exactly.

In most cases, the company will make a center-channel version of the speaker than you can use the the center channel.  (Typcially the shape is more appropriate for center placement and the bass response is not as good.)

Actually those "horizontal" center spearkers are often bad because the sound radiation pattern differs from "vertical" speakers. In cases when only one coaxial speaker cone is used, the result might be very good but when there's separate bass and treble cones, go for identical speakers.

It's sad that people has been "brainwashed" to think those horizontal "bass-treble-bass" boxes are real center speakers.

Some speaker manufacturers have "identical" floor and pedestal speakers, where the pedestal model is simply the upper part of the floor speaker. Acoustically these speaker are almost identical, lowest bass being the only difference. A system of floor model as main speakers and pedestal model as center and rear speakers may work well even without a subwoofer, since bigger floor speakers can produce bass quite well.

For the amplifier, restrict yourself to brands that have a reputation for audiophile sound (Marantz, NAD, Yamaha, etc).

Agreed.

My own experience is that there are not so many multichannel recordings available, and if you have a finite budget it is better to get 2 really good speakers than 5 middling speakers.

Depends on how you count them. Of course the amount of multichannel recordings is a tiny fraction of the amout of stereofonic recordings.

Purists may disagree but in my opionion many stereo classical music recordings work surprisingly well in surround modes like Dolby Pro Logic II. Acoustic recordings have natural ambience and limited phase/amplitude differencies between channels. This means that these matrix-decoders don't add vicious artifacts to the sound image. How well this works depends on how the recording is made, what kind of microphone set-up is used etc. I have noticed that "church music" with long reverberation usually works very well adding the feel of ambience while acoustically dry chamber music is best listened in stereo mode. 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

My hypotheses on why some people prefer Lps:

* [snipped]

I agree with most of these, but one extra I've noticed is that LPs seem to produce a bigger, more space-filling sound. Maybe this is totally subjective, because I rarely see other people pointing it out. But I really do feel like I'm sitting closer to the performers, or something like that.

On the whole, CDs win on points. I didn't get into LPs for the sound quality anyway, but because a lot of records were never reissued on CD, are difficult to find in that medium, or were somehow botched in the reissue.

[Daverz]

I agree with most of these, but one extra I've noticed is that LPs seem to produce a bigger, more space-filling sound. Maybe this is totally subjective, because I rarely see other people pointing it out. But I really do feel like I'm sitting closer to the performers, or something like that.

There's more of a sense of space being filled between the speakers.

For me, chamber music seem to come off best on Lp.   For most orchestral music, I'd generally rather have the CD.

One issue is that I hate cleaning records (I have a VPI 16.5), and I have a lot of dusty used records.  I wish I could afford that new ultrasonic cleaning machine.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

For me, chamber music seem to come off best on Lp.   For most orchestral music, I'd generally rather have the CD.

My impression too. Chamber music sounds nice and comfy with the ambient LP sound. But that same sound can smother orchestral detail.

[Todd]

Whilst at Best Buy to get a new monitor for my PC, I decided on a whim to buy the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR mini-monitors for the princely sum of $130.  They look cheap with cheap, presumably fake black oak (or whatever) veneer and cheap grill, but the sound is most impressive for the money.  The obviously low-cost tweeter is expertly deployed, with very well controlled sibilance, and it rolls off nicely in-room so as not to offend.  The woofer is pretty darn good through the mids, though the upper bass is very obviously boosted and can sound wooly at times.  They work quite well with piano recordings, but not quite so well with rock music.  These can compete with some speakers in the $500-ish range (or even much higher if one wanted to compare them to horrid Wilson CUBBs).  They may end up in an office system at some point, or perhaps the kitchen.

[DavidW]

In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurately flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural level while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.

Movies are mastered that way (with the expectation that the upper-mids/treble will be cut by 5 dB).  Music has no such standard (or any standard), but it could be that they've drifted to the standard that movies used.  Many (but not all) digital era recordings sound a touch bright to me too.  But since there are also many recordings with a more natural sound you really have to be flexible.

[Fëanor]

Movies are mastered that way {too bright} (with the expectation that the upper-mids/treble will be cut by 5 dB).  Music has no such standard (or any standard), but it could be that they've drifted to the standard that movies used.  Many (but not all) digital era recordings sound a touch bright to me too.  But since there are also many recordings with a more natural sound you really have to be flexible.

Maybe the reason is as you say.  I any case I just leave my correction on at all times without fine-tuning for given recordings.  This works for me.

[mahler10th]

 
On Sunday I'll be taking delivery of some very fancy hardware...but somewhat old.  It consists of two oak cased floor standing speakers (three way I think) and an accompanying Amp.  My sister in law who is a music nut (but sadly not Classical) bought them to compliment some high end audio equipment in 2001, and at that time the whole system bundle cost over £1,500.  She has changed her audio setup now, and I'm the lucky guy who gets the stuff!  Free.  (I'm a relative!)  I am excited as hell, because obviously I have heard her setup in action, and the sound from those speakers was OUTSTANDING in every way.  I remember enviously thinking they would be perfect for my music.   
For all the audiophiles here, I will return on Sunday in suitably excited fashion to report exactly what they are, make, wattage, etc, and post a picture.  I know the audiophiles here already have monster high end stuff, but it will be  nice to share what difference such an upgrade makes to someone who isn't all there when it comes to more sophisticated setups.

[Daverz]

On Sunday I'll be taking delivery of some very fancy hardware...but somewhat old.  It consists of two oak cased floor standing speakers (three way I think) and an accompanying Amp.  My sister in law who is a music nut (but sadly not Classical) bought them to compliment some high end audio equipment in 2001, and at that time the whole system bundle cost over £1,500.  She has changed her audio setup now, and I'm the lucky guy who gets the stuff!  Free.  (I'm a relative!)  I am excited as hell, because obviously I have heard her setup in action, and the sound from those speakers was OUTSTANDING in every way.  I remember enviously thinking they would be perfect for my music.   
For all the audiophiles here, I will return on Sunday in suitably excited fashion to report exactly what they are, make, wattage, etc, and post a picture.  I know the audiophiles here already have monster high end stuff, but it will be  nice to share what difference such an upgrade makes to someone who isn't all there when it comes to more sophisticated setups.

Oooh, mystery speakers.  I gather that these are a British make?  Tannoy, perhaps?

[mahler10th]

Oooh, mystery speakers.  I gather that these are a British make?  Tannoy, perhaps?

I think they are German...not sure though...will excitedly reply tomorrow.

[mahler10th]

I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...



Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com

I also inherited a 'Marantz' amp to go along.



The speakers are engineered (hand built!) for 'natural sound' - so no fancy audio enhancement hardware such as separate woofers, etc, are necessary, and nor so I have any mind to switch on any equalizers, effects or anything from third part sources with this setup - because it sounds brilliantly balanced already. They less than a foot away from the wall and giving good bass for it, without mugging everything else out.  I sit about ten feet away from them on the other side of the room, and have them positioned so that their potential is fully maximized.  The difference in sound quality now has gone through the roof.  I didn't hear those newfound violin mistakes in Davis's Sibelius 7 with the LSO before, it all sounded fine, but with the above setup I can hear things going on that have given me an eye popping Jim Carey-like amazement with what stuff is going on in the background there!
My god.  I have come of age here on GMG!   

[Daverz]

I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...



Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com

Very nice.

[mahler10th]

Here it is in situ.  I am as chuffed about this as a five year old.   

[petrarch]

Here it is in situ.  I am as chuffed about this as a five year old.   

Very good and very tastefully done. Bravo!

[HIPster]

Nice scores!

Rega makes some very fine equipment and that Marantz piece is highly rated (and looks beautiful).

I bet it sounds great.

[DavidW]

Nice equipment John... now move them away from the wall and you'll really hear what the speakers can do!

[The new erato]

Experimenting a little with speaker placement - and these aren't too heavy I guess - is good advice. Cheapest upgrade available if one has the space.

[marvinbrown]

I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...



Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com

I also inherited a 'Marantz' amp to go along.



The speakers are engineered (hand built!) for 'natural sound' - so no fancy audio enhancement hardware such as separate woofers, etc, are necessary, and nor so I have any mind to switch on any equalizers, effects or anything from third part sources with this setup - because it sounds brilliantly balanced already. They less than a foot away from the wall and giving good bass for it, without mugging everything else out.  I sit about ten feet away from them on the other side of the room, and have them positioned so that their potential is fully maximized.  The difference in sound quality now has gone through the roof.  I didn't hear those newfound violin mistakes in Davis's Sibelius 7 with the LSO before, it all sounded fine, but with the above setup I can hear things going on that have given me an eye popping Jim Carey-like amazement with what stuff is going on in the background there!
My god.  I have come of age here on GMG!   

  Congratulations on your new system! Marantz do indeed make very good amps! I have the Marantz PM6004 amp and CD combo. What model is that Marantz?

  Ever since I bought my system last year, I have been rediscovering my collection all over again. Floor standing speakers are indeed the way to go. You should position the speakers with your listening position so as to form an equilateral triangle with you sitting at the apex of that triangle. 2-3 meters apart should be sufficient. There is a "sweet spot", you will know it when you position yourself there.  The best way I can describe it is that at that position the speakers seem to disappear, the vocals appear to be coming from various positions (usually the centre depending on the recording) in a soundstage produced  between the speakers. it is truly marvellous! Verdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers,

  Happy listening!

  marvin

[71 dB]

What model is that Marantz?

Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:

http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg

So, a Marantz PM6010 it is. 

Verdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers,

  marvin

Did you use a crossfeeder with headphones? With a crossfeeder headphones rule.

[mahler10th]

Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:
http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg
So, a Marantz PM6010 it is. 

71 dB - spot on.

  Congratulations ...You should position the speakers with your listening position so as to form an equilateral triangle with you sitting at the apex of that triangle. 2-3 meters apart should be sufficient. There is a "sweet spot", you will know it when you position yourself there.  The best way I can describe it is that at that position the speakers seem to disappear, the vocals appear to be coming from various positions (usually the centre depending on the recording) in a soundstage produced  between the speakers. it is truly marvellous! Verdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers...

I found that sweet spot Marvin, whilst listening to some kind of trio by Mendelssohn for clarinet, viola and piano.  By the end of listening to it, I knew exactly where the piano was playing in front of me (it was slightly off left), the Clarinettist was in the middle and Violist to the right.  I could recognize that whilst at the same time experiencing the music in front of me in..er..all the ...eh...fullness of its glory..  
I sit about 10 feet away, direct opposite the speakers which are 6 feet apart (approx) and angled just to hit me with that sweet spot every time.  It is outrageous and wonderful what I experience in music now, never mind the straightforward listening to it. 
Total Concert Hall experience in my wee hoose. 

[marvinbrown]

Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:

http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg

So, a Marantz PM6010 it is. 

Did you use a crossfeeder with headphones? With a crossfeeder headphones rule.

  Thank you for the tip 71 dB.  No I did not use a cross feeder with headphones.  I had a pair of Bose headphones  which I got tired of using and never upgraded once I bought my first bookshelf stereo speakers many years ago.

  marvin

[DavidW]

John I found a pic of you listening on your new speakers:

[mahler10th]

John I found a pic of you listening on your new speakers:

Thanks, it's just right, except of course you can see I was wearing a wig when that photo was taken (only 12 hours ago).   

[Fëanor]

My recent upgrades have been ...

• Schiit Audio Bifrost Uber DAC
• Audio Research LS9 (solid state) preamplifier
• Pass Labs X150.5 amplfier

The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

[mahler10th]

My recent upgrades have been ...

• Schiit Bifrost Uber DAC
  Audio Research LS9 (solid state) preamplifier
  Pass Labs X150.5 amplfier

The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

I notice you have a 'pre-amp' and mention your 'DAC'.  As I'm learning about these things, I am interested to know about the DAC - it is all very well having great speakers and a good amp, but now since you've quoted your DAC, it seems necessary for me to find a unit with a good DAC.  I am playing through an HD DVD player hooked onto the Marantz PM6010 amp, but your post has made me realize that the quality of sound (and it really is quality!) can be even further improved by the addition of a DAC unit, which is especially true because much of my collection is (again) in digital format.  I have always wondered what the benefits of a DAC would be, and you have completely answered that for me...  Thanks Fëanor, a good DAC is my next target.
The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

[petrarch]

The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

Have you heard any of the XA series? I have heard the X300 (.5? can't remember) a few years ago and compared against two XA60's in mono mode... The XAs had all that you said in a much more pronounced way than the X.

[Fëanor]

Have you heard any of the XA series? I have heard the X300 (.5? can't remember) a few years ago and compared against two XA60's in mono mode... The XAs had all that you said in a much more pronounced way than the X.

No, I haven't heard the XA.5's, (nor had I heard the X150.5 before mine arrived).

Your observations sound about right.  Here's what an acquaintance said about the XA30.5 vs. X150.5:

- mids and treble a bit more detailed, more overtones in high frequencies
- mids more prominent
- bass is more fleshed out, rounder, but less "clean" and controlled than X150.5
- dynamic attack is a bit attenuated in comparison
- because of difference in mids prominence, soundstage seems a tiny bit more forward of speakers.

I chose the X150.A because (a) I could get a used one a bit cheaper, and (b) its lower power consumption and heat.

[Fëanor]

I notice you have a 'pre-amp' and mention your 'DAC'.  As I'm learning about these things, I am interested to know about the DAC - it is all very well having great speakers and a good amp, but now since you've quoted your DAC, it seems necessary for me to find a unit with a good DAC.  I am playing through an HD DVD player hooked onto the Marantz PM6010 amp, but your post has made me realize that the quality of sound (and it really is quality!) can be even further improved by the addition of a DAC unit, which is especially true because much of my collection is (again) in digital format.  I have always wondered what the benefits of a DAC would be, and you have completely answered that for me...  Thanks Fëanor, a good DAC is my next target.
The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

Well the DAC is pretty much necessary in my case because I listen almost exclusively to computer files.

Of course, your DVD player has it's built-in DAC but I'd venture to say that external DACs are available which, fed from you DVD player via S/PDIF or your computer via S/PDIF or USB, can significantly improve the sound you'll get.  Based on my personal experience I can recommend the Schitt Audio Bifrost with USB and with or without the Uber analog upgrade.  The Bifrost is moderately priced and offers huge value for the money ... see LINK.

[petrarch]

No, I haven't heard the XA.5's, (nor had I heard the X150.5 before mine arrived).

Your observations sound about right.  Here's what an acquaintance said about the XA30.5 vs. X150.5:

- mids and treble a bit more detailed, more overtones in high frequencies
- mids more prominent
- bass is more fleshed out, rounder, but less "clean" and controlled than X150.5
- dynamic attack is a bit attenuated in comparison
- because of difference in mids prominence, soundstage seems a tiny bit more forward of speakers.

I chose the X150.A because (a) I could get a used one a bit cheaper, and (b) its lower power consumption and heat.

Indeed, I can see price and power consumption and heat being factors; the XAs are all class A throughout the power range (if I recall correctly), which translates to high values in each of those categories. But the sound, ah the sound...

I have found my original informal review of the audition I mentioned (at the time I was shopping for a replacement to my Vantages and was already zeroing in on Analysis Audio): http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega

[Bogey]

Would be cool....

[SonicMan46]

Would be cool....

 

Hey Bill - assume that you're talking about the girl?    Reminds me of George Jones' Corvette Song - Dave

[Fëanor]

Indeed, I can see price and power consumption and heat being factors [Pass Labs X150.5 vs. XA30.5]; the XAs are all class A throughout the power range (if I recall correctly), which translates to high values in each of those categories. But the sound, ah the sound...

I have found my original informal review of the audition I mentioned (at the time I was shopping for a replacement to my Vantages and was already zeroing in on Analysis Audio): http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega

There are two polar preferences in the audiophile domain: (A) for the warmer, "harmonically rich", full-bodied, "organic", vs. (B) for the brighter, tighter, more resolved, more dynamic.  Both sides insist that their particular preference is "more accurate", if not necessarily to the recording, then to their recollection of "live performance".  Of course, there are audiophiles in the middle who like a balance of these qualities.

Personally I'm a bit inclined to the latter school.  I like lots transparency and air and to a some small degree I'am willing to trade if for sweetness and smoothness.  Unfortunately I have a pretty limited budget for hi-fi equipment; I'm retired and very dime I spend on hi-fi contributes to potential hunger a few year down the road.  The Pass Labs X150.5 is by a considerable margin the best amplifier I've owned.  It's an amp the minimizes the trade-offs between the (A) and (B) schools, but favors the (B) school in transparency and dynamics.

[The new erato]

I bought a Hegel H200 2 x 200 W integrated amp for my nr 2 system (in the living room) to substitute some older gear (Nakamichi power and a basic C-J preamp) that was getting very long in the tooth (the C-J in desperate need of tube replacements and the Naka with drying out condensers) and am very pleased with the results. I play CDs/SACDs from a Sony S9000 ES player



to Vienna Beethoven speakers:



The Sony also delivers DVD signals to an 60 inch Samsung smart TV which I just now connected up to the sound system. The TV delivers sound via a Electrocompaniet DAC to the Hegel. I also have a cheap Philips Blue Ray.

A definitive upgrade to the TV sound and now also very pleasant music listening in the living room. No need to play all those discs alone in my HiFi cave in the cellar any more.

[Todd]

I started doing some tube rolling with my Woo Audio WA6-SE, my first foray into such activity.  First up, I swapped the rectifier tube, going from the stock 5AR4 to a fancy, current production 274B, and sure enough, everything seemed to improve a bit – tighter bass was the biggest change.  Was it worth the steep price using the standard 6DE7 driver tubes?  Maybe.  I also opted for an expensive pair of NOS 6EM7 driver tubes, complete with some sweet 8 to 9 pin adapters that I can use with other tubes, and I have to say that this tube was a big old miss, at least with Beyer T1s.  The upper midrange is way too hot, and while that presents an illusion of greater detail, it also causes severe listening fatigue very quickly.  The tubes might be a better fit for Senns. 

Not content to leave things there, and also wanting a backup pair of driver tubes, I hit a couple tube shops online, and I found a bonanza of driver tubes for $6-$8 each, and even some rectifiers for as low as $20.  I went for some different types of driver tubes as well, including the 6DR7, which offers more bass than the 6DE7, but it also has too much gain, reducing how finely I can adjust volume.  (They should work better with less sensitive cans.)  But the 6FD7, well, that's just about the perfect tube for my tastes and gear, especially when paired with the 274B.  It offers all the detail of the 6DE7, but sounds more relaxed, though not necessarily warmer.  The tube does generate some very low level hum – far less than analog hiss or even random quiet noises that I can hear when using my open headphones, but it's there.  I'll probably try another make of tubes to see if that addresses the issue (my current pair is Zenith; I want some RCA), but even if it does not, I can never hear the hum when music is playing, or even when there is audience noise in live recordings, so I suppose I can suffer. 

Since the driver tubes I can use were all originally used in televisions, there are tons of made in the USA NOS tubes available for peanuts.  Yes, changing the tubes is basically the equivalent of twiddling with tone control knobs, but hey, it's fun, and it colors the sound differently with each combination, so I can twiddle whenever I get bored.

[Ken B]

I'm thinking of magnepan mmg speakers. Anyone have an opinion? I have a Technics amp, 600w, which should be enough, but I read they are hard to drive.

[bigshot]

I hear they're great for most of the spectrum but weak in low bass. You might want to pair them with a subwoofer. They also require a big room because they have to be freestanding in the open, not up against the wall.

[Jay F]

I'm thinking of magnepan mmg speakers. Anyone have an opinion? I have a Technics amp, 600w, which should be enough, but I read they are hard to drive.

I hear they're great for most of the spectrum but weak in low bass. You might want to pair them with a subwoofer. They also require a big room because they have to be freestanding in the open, not up against the wall.

I had a pair of the SMGa speakers that precede the MMG, and my favorite thing about them was the way they looked. I had them hooked up to a 65 wpc Kyocera receiver, which is what was recommended by the audio dealer. I didn't know from audiophilia then. I thought they sounded fine, but I found myself getting up to adjust their positioning way too often. They're light, though, so it's not work so much as a small annoyance. Oh, and what bigshot says about needing room is true. You don't want them near your walls. Also, I'm not a great fan of bass, so if it was missing, I wouldn't've been bothered by it.

[Ken B]

Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.

[Fëanor]

Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.

To join the chorus, I too had Magneplanar MMG which I used for several years; currently I used Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's.  They are, with a few qualifications, excellent speakers and outstanding value for the money.  Some relevant points about the MMG's ...

• They must be place at least 3 ft (1 meter) for the wall behind due to their dipole design.  Personally, recognizing this qualificaton, I haven't placement problems or the felt the need to move them around a lot.  In my opinion it is best "aim" the speakers directly at one's listening position because the highest frequencies have limited dispersion due to the width of their high-frequency, quasi-ribbon drivers.
• They require an amp rated for 4 ohms; other than that, they are not hard to drive
• The power they require depends on how loud you listen, the size of your room, and the room furnishings.  Generally speaking they probably need 60+ watts per channel into 4 ohms
• Their bass is as deep or deeper than typical, 2-way, stand-mount speakers, however their bass output (ability to play loud ) is limited, thus a subwoofer is preferable both for lowest frequencies and for higher volume
• With a woofer, it is ideal to limit MMG's to frequencies to those above 80 Hz, letting the subwoofer carry all the lower sound.  This strategy requires a high-pass filter to limit the sound to the MMG's as well as the standard, low-pass filter to limit the subwoofer frequencies

[jut1972]

Erato - that sounds a gorgeous system...

Mine is much lowlier... it's an Arcam A85 amp with a Arcam CD72 and a Squeezebox Touch providing the sources.  Monitor Audio RX6 are my main speakers.
I've a Denon AVR2311 amp for surround sound duties going into more monitor audios and a REL sub.  PS3 does the blu-ray duties.

Headphones for home use are Sennheiser 650s, with some Goldring noise cancellers driven with a FIIO E18 Headphone Amp / DAC for mobile listening from a Galaxy Note 2

Also got another squeezebox touch, Duet and a squeezebox radio floating around...

[Jay F]

Does anyone have any of the speakers in B&W/Bowers & Wilkins' CM line?

I want a new pair of small speakers to go on either side of my bed, and the CM1 looks just right.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/CM_Series/Products.html

[Octave]

I am on the hunt for a good portable speaker/speakers for use mainly at work.  I would definitely prefer something under $100, and under ~$50 if the sound is remarkably good for the price.
Bluetooth and/or an Ipod dock might be nice, but they are not important.  A 3.5mm audio-in is important (perhaps I am the last Discman user on earth).  Effective stereo separation (instead of mandatory mono) is probably essential.  A single unit (instead of two separate speakers connected by a cable) would definitely be more convenient.

This year-old post by NJ Joe might be along the lines of what I'm looking for, though something even more portable would be attractive, as long as the sound is pretty good for the size and price.  I wouldn't usually need to tote the thing in a book-bag or bike basket. 

Picked this up today to put on the floor behind my desk at work.  Logitech S715i.  Portable, remote included, and excellent sound for the money.

[Brian]

Does anyone have any of the speakers in B&W/Bowers & Wilkins' CM line?

I want a new pair of small speakers to go on either side of my bed, and the CM1 looks just right.

If it's going on either side of the bed, an alarm clock feature is necessary. Program a portable hard drive to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" at 90% volume every morning at 6:30 a.m.

[petrarch]

Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.

Planar speakers also bring to the fore the importance of the room and its acoustics. Construction materials, size, furnishings all become significant. But with some care, patience and dedication, planar speakers can make the listening experience truly outstanding.

[DavidW]

Since I just use 2.1 I can see the benefits of using a stereo amp instead of a receiver... except my receiver has multiple hdmi inputs which is what I really need.  Do any amps have hdmi inputs?

[Daverz]

Do any amps have hdmi inputs?

The NAD C 390DD Direct Digital Powered DAC Amplifier has an HDMI option. 

http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-mdc-modules/DD-HDM-1-HDMI-Module

Definitely not a typical amplifier.

...

I just ordered this pretty thing to use with my Squeezebox Touch:



Can act as a digital preamp, and can do up to DSD128, though I don't know if that will ever be more than a fad.



 

[Ken B]

Techie question. My amp (technics sa ax6) is rated to power two sets of speakers at 6 to 8 amps. So that's parallel, and if I had two sets at 6 that would be like driving one at 3 (give or take). Is that right?
Still thinking of the 4 ohm magnepans.

[Fëanor]

Techie question. My amp (technics sa ax6) is rated to power two sets of speakers at 6 to 8 amps. So that's parallel, and if I had two sets at 6 that would be like driving one at 3 (give or take). Is that right?
Still thinking of the 4 ohm magnepans.

Yes, that is, it is correct that two speakers, each rated at X ohms, when connected in parallel will look like X/2 ohms to your amplifier.

So if your Technics is indeed rated for two pairs of 6 ohm speakers it will handle 4 ohm Magneplanars with no problem -- BUT I'm suspicious that a 6 ohm rating implies that that is for a single pair of speakers, NOT two pairs -- check your manual carefully.

[Ken B]

Yes, that is, it is correct that two speakers, each rated at X ohms, when connected in parallel will look like X/2 ohms to your amplifier.

So if your Technics is indeed rated for two pairs of 6 ohm speakers it will handle 4 ohm Magneplanars with no problem -- BUT I'm suspicious that a 6 ohm rating implies that that is for a single pair of speakers, NOT two pairs -- check your manual carefully.

I will, thanks. I found it online.

[Kontrapunctus]

I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent, but more musical:



I have a DALI Epicon Vokal on order to replace my Martin Logan Motif center speaker:



And an SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer on order to replace my Martin Logan Abyss:



I'll report back once they arrive.

[The new erato]

I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent,

Glad you like the Dali's. I have a set of the Dali Euphonia MS 5's in my main music room and love them(the picture is not my system though):

[Kontrapunctus]

Thanks. They are pricey, but life is too short for poor sound!

[Daverz]

When I was hunting for new speakers several years ago, Dalis were definitely the best looking ones that I auditioned.

[Kontrapunctus]

When I was hunting for new speakers several years ago, Dalis were definitely the best looking ones that I auditioned.

The Epicon is their new reference series, and they sound as good as they look!

[Ken B]

Thanks. They are pricey, but life is too short for poor sound!

What neighbourhood of pricey?

[The new erato]

A quich google shows a retail price in the UK of £ 4300 including stands. In Norway they are the equivalent of $ 6000.

[Ken B]

A quich google shows a retail price in the UK of £ 4300 including stands. In Norway they are the equivalent of $ 6000.

For that price they have to make me thinner and younger!

[petrarch]

For that price they have to make me thinner and younger!

I am guessing the amount of enjoyment and depth of T&F's and Erato's listening experience far exceeds the amount of money spent.

[Kontrapunctus]

In the US the Epicon 2 sells for $8000 a pair, and the Vokal center is $6000. The bigger Epicon 6 sells for about $12,000 and the Epicon 8 for $19,000. One mainly gets a bit more bass and volume output with the larger models. Since my wife thought the Martin Logans were too visually overwhelming in the living room, I needed to find something that sounded as good (or better, in this case) but that was significantly smaller, so the Epicon 2 perfectly met the need. I also found the MLs to be rather fatiguing to listen to over an extended time. Electrostatics are great for "x-raying" the music, but they are not as musical as good dynamic speakers in my opinion. I also plan to replace my Stax headphones with some dynamic ones, probably Sennheiser HD 800 or Audyze LCD-X as soon as I sell the Stax.

[mahler10th]

Things get better and better here.
Reported in October or thereabouts last year my joy in receiving Marantz Integrated Amp and two fabulous Rega Jura speakers.  Recently, I have got my small gnarly fingers also on a Marantz CD player to compliment the Amp, and Sony Dav DZ 260 DVD/SACD home entertainment system, complete with fabulous solid state Sony 5.1 speaker set which runs at a a crystal clear ear smashing 3 ohms.  My setup has become somewhat mighty compared to any audio hardware I've used in the past.  For example, I've never been able to play an SACD until now.

I could not be happier with the way music comes to me, I feel blessed that I can at last listen to it closer to it's proper output quality than ever.  My equipment is pretty old (the Marantz stuff and the Riga speakers date from 1999-ish, and the DVD/SACD from 2008-ish) but by all the Gods all of it does utter wonders!

[jut1972]

John you may be able to use the marantz amp to drive your left and right channeld.  if you can then you'll be hearing it through the rigas not the little sonys. .. 
that's how I have mine set up. 

[mahler10th]

John you may be able to use the marantz amp to drive your left and right channeld.  if you can then you'll be hearing it through the rigas not the little sonys. .. 
that's how I have mine set up.

Yes, me too.  Since last post I have ditched the Sony setup completely in favor of the Regas.  Everything plays through the Regas.  Whilst the Sony setup was loud and gave fabulous dimension, the flourish and wonder of the freestanding Regas still wind hands down.  Plus, when at a concert, I do not hear music also coming from 'behind' me, so while the Sony dimensions and clarity was nothing short of outstanding, there was something irregular about it...I guess the 'Home Theater System' is just that, great for movies and gaming and all manner of media, but for our music...the Regas still win...

[Pat B]

Finally bought a new needle (Grado Black1) for my phono cartridge (Grado Black). This is badly overdue. I won't say how long, but I haven't been spinning vinyl lately because of it.

A while ago I somehow came into possession of a ZF3 cartridge, which I looked up after I bought that needle. Turns out this is actually a nicer, though slightly older, cartridge. The needles are compatible but I think I'm going to put the Black1 in the Black, and maybe get a nicer stylus for the ZF3 later.

[Mirror Image]

My audio stereo setup is pretty simple. Here are photos found on the Internet of my stereo equipment:



Onkyo DX7210 CD player



Sony XE500 CD Player



Sony JE520 MD Player (Am I the only on this forum that uses MDs?)



Sony D711 amplifier



Pioneer Dynamic Range Processor RG-9

I don't know the model number of my Polk Audio speakers, but they're probably made in the late 80s, early 90s.

My setup hasn't changed at all. No need in changing something that you're already pleased with. Of course, I could invest in some higher end equipment, but I've always believed 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

[Jay F]

Sony JE520 MD Player (Am I the only on this forum that uses MDs?)

What are MDs?

[Mirror Image]

What are MDs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

[mahler10th]

My setup hasn't changed at all. No need in changing something that you're already pleased with. Of course, I could invest in some higher end equipment, but I've always believed 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Dynamic Range Processor?  Interesting.  I did not know such things exist, John!  I know what it is by its name, but what has it got IN it to do the job it says?  Some kind of DAC or something?     

[Mirror Image]

Dynamic Range Processor?  Interesting.  I did not know such things exist, John!  I know what it is by its name, but what has it got IN it to do the job it says?  Some kind of DAC or something?     

Hey Johnny Boy, all you need to know about Dynamic Range Processors is here:

http://electronicdesign.com/archive/dynamic-range-processor

[DavidW]

Why do you want a dynamic range processor in your quiet living room?  The only use I see is for mobile listening.

[otare]

I'm moving to a new house, with a bit smaller listening room than what I currently have, so my Quad 2905s will be sold. I just bought these beauties:



Sonus Faber Guarneri memento - possibly the most beautiful speakers ever produced. I hope they will play well with my Conrad-Johnson amps.

For headphones I prefer electrostatics, and am currently using STAX SR-009s which I cannot ever imagine changing for something else:

[Todd]

So, any takers for the up to €15K Varios Angelo (the one on the right).  And yes, it is apparently a real product.

[Pat B]

So, any takers for the up to €15K Varios Angelo (the one on the right).  And yes, it is apparently a real product.

Looks sweet! Let me check with my wife.

[Mookalafalas]

I have a 7.1 system.  The heart are Usher dancer mini X speakers (I think they are 45 pounds each, so not really so "mini", a 15" usher woofer, and then a Mirage Omnisat 5 speaker system for fill.

[Kontrapunctus]

I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent, but more musical:



I have a DALI Epicon Vokal on order to replace my Martin Logan Motif center speaker:



And an SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer on order to replace my Martin Logan Abyss:

Here is the rest of my system:

Pre-amp: Marantz 8801



Amp: Parasound A 51


Sources: Opp105


Sony ES 5400 SACD player


Technics SL1200


Headphones: Sennheiser HD 800


Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6

[Todd]

Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6

You may want to consider upgrading the rectifier to the Sophia 274B.  I use a WA6-SE with Beyer T1s, and the swap made a noticeable improvement, or at least a change.  The sound is a tad less warm.  A friend of mine made the same change on the standard WA6 (he also uses T1s), and he reported similar improvements.

[Kontrapunctus]

I like the warmth! It seems to be a good match for the HD800s.

[Fëanor]

Here is the rest of my system:
...

Headphones: Sennheiser HD 800


Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6

Nice system in general and nice headphone equipment.

I recently upgrade my headphone amplifier to Schiit Audio Asgard 2 and I'm very please.  The Asgard 2 features an all-discrete FET front end and a class A MOSFET power section.  The sound is detailed, dynamic, and sweet.  The thing runs a pretty hot, though, on account of class A operation.



My current Sennheiser HD 555 are doing a good job, though it would be nice to upgrade at least to the HD 650; (the HD 800 are beyond my budget for the foreseeable).

[otare]

I use a Woo Audio 2 with my HD800.

[DavidW]

I'm planning on acquiring the Objective Amp O2 + dac.  I think I've finally seen the light that iphone + portable amp is not smart.  Copying my library to my work PC and using a desktop amp + dac would be better.  I'm on break and I don't start up again until mid August so there is no rush (I listen through my speakers at home).  I've been playing this since May.

[jlaurson]

At last, at long last!

[The new erato]

Tell us what it is!

[jlaurson]

Tell us what it is!

Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T

[The new erato]

Thanks. One doesn't see Thiel in Norway, though I know the name.

[Sergeant Rock]

Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T

Excellent    I know you've been after the Thiel speakers for quite some time.

Sarge

[Jay F]

Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T

Why the little speakers? And what are they? Does the amp allow two pair of speakers?

[SonicMan46]

Jens - congrats! Dave 

[71 dB]

At last, at long last!

Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

[Herman]

Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

also, have you experimented with UNstacking the electronics?

Many people think it's a bad idea to stack amps etc on top of each other.

[jlaurson]

Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

The listening spot is a good deal away, but very narrow. There's lots and lots of potential to tweak their position... I had only one day to set it up and I haven't properly moved into that room, either... the whole right wall is supposed to be shelves (still in the designing stage).

Narrowing is one thing I'll try... though I'm not sure how much they will like being in front of the windows. Then again... they are not bass-heavy in the least, so that potential problem ought not show up. Advice always welcome.

I'm not in the least worried about stacking the units... if anything, the 30kg of the amp further dampens any of the vibrations the 18kg doesn't have in the first place. But they'll get a different table; what they're on now isn't quite big enough for the feet to sit properly on the plate. And maybe I'll move them next to the listening spot, rather than putting them in the "temple position"... speaker cables are long enough, after all.

[jlaurson]

Thanks. One doesn't see Thiel in Norway, though I know the name.

Excellent    I know you've been after the Thiel speakers for quite some time.
Sarge

Why the little speakers? And what are they? Does the amp allow two pair of speakers?

Jens - congrats! Dave 

Thanks! Yes... the Thiel SCS4 have fascinated relentlessly me ever since I've done extensive comparative hearing sessions at the local HiFi shop. My... that's probably some seven or six years ago, now. These are the T model and differ only in that they don't have a stand but a chassis... but otherwise identical. Not more internal volume, either.

Why them? Why so small? Well, I fell in love with how they play... the precision and the detail are amazing -- very, very neutral and 'fast' / responsive. Makes the ears read the score, while listening to good string quartet recordings. I don't need the oomph so badly... and if I have extra money and the inclination, I can get a superb subwoofer added to it and give the SS Organ Symphony the necessary kick, too. :-)

[71 dB]

The listening spot is a good deal away, but very narrow. There's lots and lots of potential to tweak their position... I had only one day to set it up and I haven't properly moved into that room, either... the whole right wall is supposed to be shelves (still in the designing stage).

Narrowing is one thing I'll try... though I'm not sure how much they will like being in front of the windows. Then again... they are not bass-heavy in the least, so that potential problem ought not show up. Advice always welcome.

Even if you get shelves and stuff into the room the direct sound versus reverberation ratio seems problematic. I can't predict how your loudspeakers will sound like in the end (I don't even know how the room continues "behind"), but you should try taking the speakers closer to each other and bringing the listening spot closer. That way you'll increase the direct sound versus reverberation ratio. Also, try to keep the room "symmetrical" so that the left and right sides are acoustically as similar as possible. Try moving the speakers. Even a few inches will change the sound a bit. The angle of speakers is also important. I would try turning the speakers so that their axis cross each other in front of you. That produces a sharper sound image that can be used to compensate poor direct sound versus reverberation ratio.

[Jay F]

Why them? Why so small?

I was asking about the two small speakers, on the table with the amp and CD player.

[jlaurson]

I was asking about the two small speakers, on the table with the amp and CD player.

Oh, never mind those. They are Focal Wireless speakers. Not bad for what they are... glorified Computer Speakers. But a bit woolly.

But to answer your question about the amp: Yes, it can/could take two pairs of speakers or bi-wiring, for those who believe in it. (But Thiel doesn't believe in it, so that point is mute with my system.)

[HIPster]

At last, at long last!

Very nice!   

Congrats Jens. 

[Ken B]

So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]

Next up is new speakers, Paradigm Monitor 9.

[petrarch]

It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics

Therefore an improvement for some Marteau and Gruppen.

[Ken B]

Therefore an improvement for some Marteau and Gruppen.

Might make all the difference!

[Brian]

Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

[Ken B]

Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

This, which is only this weekend I think, seems a good deal. http://www.frys.com/product/4965501?site:sr=dealnews
They are floor standers but not big ones. I have not heard them but Polk is generally good for low to moderate priced stuff. You need a decent amp and  two precisely two speakers, and any decent 16 guage or thicker cables.
Your amp matters. Unless you plan on putting in a multi surround system, which you cannot in your space, get a good stereo amp not a home theatre amp, unless the price is great. Old amps can still be great, so think about eBay.
Does your bluray have RCA plugs (round, hole in the middle, red, white)? If not you need an amp with a DAC, Digital analog converter, which rules out older amps. Either that or get a new CD player with a good DAC.

Given a choice look for a type A or B or A/B amp, not type C or D. Technical stuff about power usage mostly, and you won't be driving moster sized speakers so you don't care.

As an example I found this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotel-RA-1062-High-Current-Stereo-Integrated-Power-Amplifier-/221622092278?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3399b4c1f6 that's a good amp, and I found it in two minutes looking.

[Todd]

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

You need: source (your BD player should work), an integrated amp, and speakers.  Receivers can be good, but integrateds are better.  When I started off I had a well reviewed Denon receiver, and the Arcam integrated I replaced it with was way better.  Hopefully, you don't get hooked on gear, because it can be a spendy habit.  I know.

You needn't spend a fortune.  Entry level NAD electronics and B&W speakers, for instance, would work just fine.  Budget will have a huge impact, but I assume you are inquiring about cheaper stuff.  I also assume stereo is what you're after.  You may want to consider internet direct sellers.  You get much better bang for the buck for new gear, but make sure the company offers a home trial.  Used gear is an option, too, but be careful, especially at the lower end of the market.

[Todd]

Brian, for speakers, I don't know what your budget is, or if you are currently residing in the US, but Philharmonic Audio offers a modified pair of Pioneer SP-FS52 towers for $275.00.  The tweeter has been upgraded to a Vifa model, and the crossover has been redesigned.  I've not heard them, but I do own four other pairs of speakers where Dennis Murphy, the man behind Philharmonic Audio, designed the crossover.  He knows his stuff.  I do own the Pioneer BS-22 in unmodified form, and it is good; I would bet the upgraded pair for $165 is even better.

[Moonfish]

So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]

How is your Marantz amplifier experience turning out Ken?

[Ken B]

How is your Marantz amplifier experience turning out Ken?

Very well. Unlike the Yamaha it's a step up from the Technics. Not a  large step, but it seems just a bit quicker in the highs. And with it's optical input and good DAC I can now play Spotify from the TV and get good sound.

I tried 3 ways to hook up my cd player,, which also has a good DAC, rca, optical, coax. The coax seems a shade better than optical, a shade better than RCA.

It also runs a lot cooler and is slimmer so vents better.

[Moonfish]

Very well. Unlike the Yamaha it's a step up from the Technics. Not a  large step, but it seems just a bit quicker in the highs. And with it's optical input and good DAC I can now play Spotify from the TV and get good sound.

I tried 3 ways to hook up my cd player,, which also has a good DAC, rca, optical, coax. The coax seems a shade better than optical, a shade better than RCA.

It also runs a lot cooler and is slimmer so vents better.

Sounds wonderful. Hard to know what is under the hood in some of these receivers/amplifiers. Did you get a good deal?  I have an older Yamaha receiver that needs to graduate to (or rather be dropped down )  supporting my home TV, so I can blast classical music a bit louder. I.e. am have started to look around for a good amplifier.  0:)

[Ken B]

Sounds wonderful. Hard to know what is under the hood in some of these receivers/amplifiers. Did you get a good deal?  I have an older Yamaha receiver that needs to graduate to (or rather be dropped down )  supporting my home TV, so I can blast classical music a bit louder. I.e. am have started to look around for a good amplifier.  0:)

Yes. I went on eBay and got half list price plus shipping for a gently used one. List is 700, and they seem to be getting it; not many discounts, and some places sold out. Anyway, I am a happy camper.

It has fairly low power, 45 a channel, less than half the Technics, but it drives my Paradigm 9s perfectly without getting as far as one third volume. It can bi amp too.
No fancy DSP. Just straight pass thru or bass and treble knobs, and a loudness buton.
Two channel, no sub woofer.

The PM6004 is the early version, and for years was generally seen as the stereo amp to beat under 1k. The reviews say this is noticeably better, but the 6004 may turn up cheap.

[jlaurson]

Thanks! Yes... the Thiel SCS4 have fascinated relentlessly me ever since I've done extensive comparative hearing sessions at the local HiFi shop. My... that's probably some seven or six years ago, now. These are the T model and differ only in that they don't have a stand but a chassis... but otherwise identical. Not more internal volume, either.

Why them? Why so small? Well, I fell in love with how they play... the precision and the detail are amazing -- very, very neutral and 'fast' / responsive. Makes the ears read the score, while listening to good string quartet recordings. I don't need the oomph so badly... and if I have extra money and the inclination, I can get a superb subwoofer added to it and give the SS Organ Symphony the necessary kick, too. :-)

Moved twice. Intermittently in a room with absolutely nothing but blank walls and a hardwood floor and about 900ft2 large... and absolutely the acoustics of a swimming pool. All I could play (not that I minded) was (Bach) Organ Works. Sounded amazing. But now I'm in a small furnished room... and the speakers sound amazing. Tears are coming to my eyes, just on listening to the first recording (Goldbergs on Guitar that I randomly picked from a box of new arrivals) and oh-my!!!



J.S. Bach
Goldberg Variations on Guitar
Marco Salcito
Dynamic (2 CDs)
German link - UK link

[vandermolen]

I have quite a low-fi system. Second hand Kef speakers (large, floor standing), second hand NAD amplifier. Sony CD player is playing up so need new one. Richer Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one. Any advice on which one to get or a not-too-expensive alternative.

[Pat B]

Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

IMO: speakers differ more than amps which differ more than sources (assuming your sources are digital; if you ever get into vinyl, a quality turntable is very important).

For small rooms, and since it sounds like you're on a budget, and most of your listening is classical, I would suggest putting your money into a amp (I agree with Todd about integrated amp if possible, as opposed to a receiver) and a pair of good, small speakers.

In general, I'd say avoid the mass-market stuff, though something like Todd's Pioneers might be an exception (I haven't heard them).

You can find good deals on previous-generation stuff. I bought a pair of Mission 731i's via ebay for about $100 and have been very happy with them. But I don't know what the risk is -- maybe I got lucky.

All IMO/FWIW. My days of A-B comparing were long ago.

[Todd]

Richer Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one.

I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.

[Daverz]

Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

An integrated amp (basically an amp with volume control) and speakers would be all you need.

Speakers are either stand-mounted or floor-standing.  Floor-standing speakers don't really take up any more floor space and generally go lower in the bass.

Most speakers do need to be at least a couple feet from the wall behind them, and several feet from side walls.

[vandermolen]

I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.

Very many thanks Todd. The Teac is significantly cheaper, so I will go for that. 

[Ken B]

I have quite a low-fi system. Second hand Kef speakers (large, floor standing), second hand NAD amplifier. Sony CD player is playing up so need new one. Richer Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one. Any advice on which one to get or a not-too-expensive alternative.

Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.

[Moonfish]

Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.

Hmm, are you familiar with the Onkyo C-7030? Beyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas )...

[asin] B004UR487A[/asin]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

[Jay F]

I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.

I had a cheap Teac cassette deck, bought new during the 1980s, that died one hour after its warranty. I have a couple of Sony SACD players that are around ten years old. The SACD part dies before the rest; they're still good for playing CDs.

[Moonfish]

I had a cheap Teac cassette deck, bought new during the 1980s, that died one hour after its warranty. I have a couple of Sony SACD players that are around ten years old. The SACD part dies before the rest; they're still good for playing CDs.

An hour! Talk about planned obsolescence!!!!   

[Todd]

Beyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas )

But how many CDs can you listen to at once?  More mechanical parts means more things to break.

[Moonfish]

But how many CDs can you listen to at once?  More mechanical parts means more things to break.

What! You only listen to one at a time?!!!    But isn't it a bit frustrating to have to change discs in a multi-disc work (operas, longer symphonies etc)?  I guess one can view it as an intermission and get a glass of wine! You are right - the fewer moving parts the better.

[Ken B]

Hmm, are you familiar with the Onkyo C-7030? Beyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas )...

[asin] B004UR487A[/asin]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

Oops, c390
[asin]B0000EZ1KK[/asin]

The reviews split into those who got units with buggy control logic, who give it one star,  and the rest of us. The rest of us give it great reviews.

I tried to live without a carousel when my Sony was stolen. I couldn't. The Onkyo was better than the Sony for sound, but not for formats or features.
Only downside for me: this sucker is big. Really big. Doesn't fit some cabinets big.

[Todd]

But isn't it a bit frustrating to have to change discs in a multi-disc work (operas, longer symphonies etc)?

Not really.  I need the exercise.  If I really was interested in maximum convenience, then I'd rip everything and listen using a music server and a catheter.

[Moonfish]

Not really.  I need the exercise.  If I really was interest in maximum convenience, then I'd rip everything and listen using a music server and a catheter.

In that case one should have one's amplifier in the basement and the cd player in the attic (no stairs - just rope ladders)!
I suspect that the future will include small implanted microchips connected to the auditory lobes so we have access to instant streaming at all times.

[Todd]

I suspect that the future will include small implanted microchips connected to the auditory lobes so we have access to instant streaming at all times.

Apple branded, thank you!

[Jay F]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

I have had both, and I prefer the carousel. I like Mahler, so the "opera" advantage is obvious. However, the main reason I bought it is because it was cheap and it played SACDs. If a single-player had been the same price, I might have chosen it, under the "fewer mechanical parts" logic stated earlier.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158SCDC595/Sony-SCD-CE595.html?tp=197

It turned out that the SACD part of the player dies (relatively) quickly on all Sony SACD players, so I've owned three of these machines. The two I still have play CDs perfectly, ten and eight years later (I gave one to a friend's niece to use as a CD player). But $450 over ten years isn't bad.

If I buy another CD player (I'm currently enamored of wireless music), I might choose a used Kyocera. Mine lasted for 10 years of obsessive playing, and it looked and sounded better than the Sony. Said sonic superiority may be a product of faulty memory, of course. My stereo was a much more important part of my life before computers than it has been since.

[Daverz]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

Haven't used a carousel since the 90s. Too fragile, and good single disc players had better sound, but I've never had a player that didn't eventually have mechanical problems.

I now use dbPowerAmp to rip CDs to a Linux box running Logitech Media Server.  Playback is via a Squeezebox Touch that connects to the server over wireless network.  The Touch is connected to a DAC via USB.

Unfortunately Logitech no longer makes Squeezeboxes, though there are DIY ways to assemble your own player.  Which I'll probably have to do if my Touch gives up.

[Brian]

Thanks to all for the (public AND private) messages I've been getting so far - I need to sit down and do the research that you have paved the way for and will probably be on this thread several more times this month asking questions, picking brains, etc.

For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?

[jlaurson]

Thanks to all for the (public AND private) messages I've been getting so far - I need to sit down and do the research that you have paved the way for and will probably be on this thread several more times this month asking questions, picking brains, etc.

For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?

If you get a CD player with a good DAC and a digital IN, you might find that a considerable bonus as it will allow you to listen to your music via computers at a sonically appreciably better level without having to get another piece of equipment. It was one additional bonus (if not the deciding reason) for getting the CD/SACD player I have right now. Also makes the classic: CD Player, Amp, Speakers setup slightly more future-proof than it would otherwise be.

[The new erato]

I have had both, and I prefer the carousel. I like Mahler, so the "opera" advantage is obvious. However, the main reason I bought it is because it was cheap and it played SACDs. If a single-player had been the same price, I might have chosen it, under the "fewer mechanical parts" logic stated earlier.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158SCDC595/Sony-SCD-CE595.html?tp=197

It turned out that the SACD part of the player dies (relatively) quickly on all Sony SACD players, so I've owned three of these machines. The two I still have play CDs perfectly, ten and eight years later (I gave one to a friend's niece to use as a CD player). But $450 over ten years isn't bad.

Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....

[Ken B]

Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....

It sounds strange to me too. The sacd stuff is firmware or circuitry. Interpreting bits. Why would that wear out? Carousels or sliders sure, but circuitry?

[Jay F]

Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....

It sounds strange to me too. The sacd stuff is firmware or circuitry. Interpreting bits. Why would that wear out? Carousels or sliders sure, but circuitry?

I don't know why or how it happens, but two of them stopped playing SACD. I read on the Steve Hoffman forum that it was something that happened to SACD players by Sony.

[vandermolen]

Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.

Thank you. 

[The new erato]

Thank you. 

You are sure you wouldn't rather buy an OK DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter), hook it up to your computer and play discs throught the computers drive? Seems to me in this day and age that would be more futureproof as a good DAC also will play other formats, streaming audio from the net, and, if needed, provide audio output from televison sets, Bluray players etc?

I'm fond of CD players myself, but I'm gradually realising that their time is past.

[Ken B]

Thank you. 

Welcome. Note my correction though. I actually have the c390.

[Daverz]

For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?

You could get an integrated amp with a built-in USB DAC that can be hooked directly to the computer, but I think it's more flexlible to get a sepearate outboard DAC that feeds an integrated amp.

[Ken B]

I noticed a bit of weakness with my highs at low volume with my new speakers, so I decided to bi-amp. It seems to have made a difference, maybe because there is now just more power to the drivers.  Placebo effect? I don't think so, but then one never does with the placebo effect.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

You needn't spend a fortune.  Entry level NAD electronics and B&W speakers, for instance, would work just fine. 

Exactly what I have, and I'm real happy with them (plus a Pro-Ject turntable).

[Jay F]

Exactly what I have, and I'm real happy with them (plus a Pro-Ject turntable).

Which B&W speakers, Velimir?

[Daverz]

I noticed a bit of weakness with my highs at low volume with my new speakers, so I decided to bi-amp. It seems to have made a difference, maybe because there is now just more power to the drivers.  Placebo effect? I don't think so, but then one never does with the placebo effect.

This is why receivers used to have a loudness control.

These are the Paradigm 9s?  How are you bi-amping?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Which B&W speakers, Velimir?

B&W 685:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/600_Series/685.html

[Ken B]

This is why receivers used to have a loudness control.

These are the Paradigm 9s?  How are you bi-amping?

Yes, P9s.
A and B left to left, and A and B right to right.
The amp has a loudness button but it didn't quite give me what I wanted.

[Moonfish]

Yes. I went on eBay and got half list price plus shipping for a gently used one. List is 700, and they seem to be getting it; not many discounts, and some places sold out. Anyway, I am a happy camper.

It has fairly low power, 45 a channel, less than half the Technics, but it drives my Paradigm 9s perfectly without getting as far as one third volume. It can bi amp too.
No fancy DSP. Just straight pass thru or bass and treble knobs, and a loudness buton.
Two channel, no sub woofer.

The PM6004 is the early version, and for years was generally seen as the stereo amp to beat under 1k. The reviews say this is noticeably better, but the 6004 may turn up cheap.

Wasn't the previous version Marantz PM5004 rather than 6004?   How do you think Marantz PM5004 compares to the PM 6005?

[Moonfish]

So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]

Next up is new speakers, Paradigm Monitor 9.

Ken,
Does your Marantz PM 6005 power the Paradigms well?  It seems like the amplifier is underpowered (2x45W) relative to the Paradigm 9s or does it matter? How are your Paradigms sounding with your new amplifier?

[Ken B]

Ken,
Does your Marantz PM 6005 power the Paradigms well?  It seems like the amplifier is underpowered (2x45W) relative to the Paradigm 9s or does it matter? How are your Paradigms sounding with your new amplifier?

It works very well now that I have, depending on which definition you use, bi-amped or bi-wire. The softness in the highs I found at moderate to low volume is gone, no problems at all with volume. So everything sounds great. I don't crank the volume past 1/3 of the dial.

I connected A and B right to the right speaker, which the manual says works out to 60 amps per channel, as opposed to 45 uniwired.  So 2x60 now. Of course that means no second set of speakers but I wasn't planning on that anyway.

[mahler10th]

Bi Amped 1998 Jura freestanding speakers to a venerable but very good solid state 1994 Kenwood Amp w/ pre amp.  Marantz CD Player CD6000OSE (KI Signature Edition). 

[Todd]

For Christmas, I bought myself the family a new, bigger TV.  The picture is better than on the old set, but the sound through the TV speakers is positively horrid, and the analog output relies on a Y adapter and whatever electronics the manufacturer threw in, so while better than the TV speakers, it left more than a bit to be desired.  But the TV has an optical digital out, so I used this opportunity to buy my first ever DAC.  I thus decided to move from shitty sound to Schiity sound, and bought the Schiit Modi 2 Uber.  I do like my Asgard, though I use it rarely, and the small form factor of the Modi 2, combined with its versatility, and the basically fun fact that it is built in the USA for only a hundred and fifty bucks, all made it an easy purchase to make.  Sound is definitely noticeably better than from the TV's analog outs.  Mids and voices are clearer and smoother and warmer.  High frequencies are much smoother - no hash now - and bass is much better controlled and cleaner.  Sitting on the sofa it doesn't seem like the bass output is much greater, but my wife complained of the increased rumble radiating through the floor from the sub when in another room.  I rate the Modi 2 a success. 

[Fëanor]

For Christmas, I bought myself the family a new, bigger TV.  The picture is better than on the old set, but the sound through the TV speakers is positively horrid, and the analog output relies on a Y adapter and whatever electronics the manufacturer threw in, so while better than the TV speakers, it left more than a bit to be desired.  But the TV has an optical digital out, so I used this opportunity to buy my first ever DAC.  I thus decided to move from shitty sound to Schiity sound, and bought the Schiit Modi 2 Uber.  I do like my Asgard, though I use it rarely, and the small form factor of the Modi 2, combined with its versatility, and the basically fun fact that it is built in the USA for only a hundred and fifty bucks, all made it an easy purchase to make.  Sound is definitely noticeably better than from the TV's analog outs.  Mids and voices are clearer and smoother and warmer.  High frequencies are much smoother - no hash now - and bass is much better controlled and cleaner.  Sitting on the sofa it doesn't seem like the bass output is much greater, but my wife complained of the increased rumble radiating through the floor from the sub when in another room.  I rate the Modi 2 a success.

Good move, Todd.  No surprised that the Modi 2 is a big improvement over TV decoding.  BTW, the same sort of improvement would be got replacing computer analog outputs, (at least those based on the usual Realtek audio chips).

For more serious listening than TV, I recommend Schiit's Bifrost Uber.  I had the original Modi feeding my main stereo system for while but replaced with the Bifrost.  The Modi was very nice but the Bifrost Uber is a BIG step up in transparency and imaging.

[Todd]

I decided to do some more tube rolling with my headphone amp, just for fun.  I changed out my modern build 274B rectifier for some 1950s era GE and Raytheon 5U4G tubes.  I started with the GE, and the sound is more tube-y.  That is, the lows and (especially) highs are noticeably rolled off, and the sound is softer.  It's like a good, old-fashioned tone control, attenuating at 1 KHz and probably 500 Hz or so.  I expect the same from the Raytheon.  The best part is that the tubes are pretty cheap, and much less expensive than boutique models.

[toledobass]

Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A

[marvinbrown]

Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A

  I own the Marantz CD6004 player, the next model up I believe and it is very good. It features an iPod connection ( the 5004 apprently doesn't) and is very reasonably priced. I have not had the need to replace it. Marantz CD players have very good DACs you won't be disappointed.

  marvin

[Daverz]

I added spiked outriggers to my Vandersteen Quatros



(pic of different speaker from http://soundocity.com )

The effect is surprising, like getting whole new speakers.

The Quatros have cones in the front and a single spike in back for tilting the speakers.  The cones are not sharp and aren't able to penetrate to the floor under my thick carpet, so the speakers tend to "float" on the carpet, which really muddied the sound.  The speakers were also difficult to level and not at the same height, which played havoc with the soundstage, and makes the optimum tilt difficult to get right.  The outriggers allow me to "ground" the speakers to the subfloor and level them, making them very stable, and eliminating the height difference.  I expected this to clean up the bass and even out the soundstage, but was surprised by how much it cleaned up the midrange. 

[aligreto]

I added spiked outriggers to my Vandersteen Quatros



(pic of different speaker from http://soundocity.com )

The effect is surprising, like getting whole new speakers.

The Quatros have cones in the front and a single spike in back for tilting the speakers.  The cones are not sharp and aren't able to penetrate to the floor under my thick carpet, so the speakers tend to "float" on the carpet, which really muddied the sound.  The speakers were also difficult to level and not at the same height, which played havoc with the soundstage, and makes the optimum tilt difficult to get right.  The outriggers allow me to "ground" the speakers to the subfloor and level them, making them very stable, and eliminating the height difference.  I expected this to clean up the bass and even out the soundstage, but was surprised by how much it cleaned up the midrange.

Such a simple fix which yields such a big sonic difference! I have wooden floors and found that when I put a small marble slab under the spikes of my speakers I had a similiar resut to you. Isolation works; the same will apply to your electronic components.

[Daverz]

And one of the last pieces of my system, a really good listening chair:



I've been using an Ikea Poang chair and ottoman for years, but needed something that put my ears a little higher and decided to splurge on an Ekornes Stressless chair.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've been using an Ikea Poang chair and ottoman for years,

I got myself a Poang chair recently, precisely because I wanted a low-slung chair that was good for thinking, reading and headphoning. It fits the bill nicely.

[Daverz]

I got myself a Poang chair recently, precisely because I wanted a low-slung chair that was good for thinking, reading and headphoning. It fits the bill nicely.

Yeah, they are great chairs, and about 1/20th the cost of the Ekornes.

[Moonfish]

Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!     

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390 , but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo? 

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103?

[Moonfish]

The Yamaha CD-S300 seems interesting....

[Ken B]

Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!     

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390 , but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo? 

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103?

I have an Onkyo multi, I think that's the number, and have been quite pleased with it. It is big though.

[Moonfish]

I have an Onkyo multi, I think that's the number, and have been quite pleased with it. It is big though.

It seems like only Onkyo and Yamaha are making multis nowadays...! 

[Fëanor]

Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!     

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390 , but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo? 

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103?

I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.

I might consider a new SACD player though.  Top of my list would be ...

• Sony SCD-XA5400ES; unfortunately doesn't seem to be for sale in Canada
• Marantz SA8005: least expensive and can serve as a DAC for other sources such as computer
• Oppo BDP-105 which is by far the most versatile.

[The new erato]

I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.

I might consider a new SACD player though.  Top of my list would be ...

• Sony SCD-XA5400ES;

I have one and it is very good (but I think it is discontinued), though for pure CD playback my old Wadia 302 sounds slightly better. If I ever need a new player though, I'll buy a top DAC and play through computer drives/streaming. 

[Ken B]

It seems like only Onkyo and Yamaha are making multis nowadays...! 

You don't want to live without your multi. I tried. You have a lot of boxes to get through; you need good tools!

[The new erato]

I cannot understand the need for multis. They have more parts, more mechanics that can go wrong and they also reputedly sound inferior. As well as restricting the available choice.  Anybody that yhinks changing discs a chore, should rip them and play them from a harddisc.

[Todd]

I can only listen to one disc at a time, so a single disc player seems good enough to me.  Then there's the fewer things that can break aspect.

Oppo is good enough that Lexicon tried to pass off a $500 BD-83 as a $3500 Lexicon unit after changing nameplates a few years back, and MSB currently sells a $5K or so unit based on the BDP-103 transport and guts, though MSB at least markets it as such, and claims miraculous improvements in other areas (DAC, output stage, etc).

[Pat B]

I cannot understand the need for multis. They have more parts, more mechanics that can go wrong and they also reputedly sound inferior. As well as restricting the available choice.  Anybody that yhinks changing discs a chore, should rip them and play them from a harddisc.

Regarding sound, I suspect that's a hold-over from the analog days -- and even then, changers tended to be generally cheap; I'm not sure they sounded any worse than a single-player with a comparable motor, platter, arm, and cartridge. Likewise I doubt a CD changer sounds any worse than a single-player with a comparable DAC.

With that said, I happily stick with single-disc CD players (currently Onkyo C-7030). I had a 5-disc Denon once but it had too many mechanical problems. The only time I even slightly miss it is when listening to multi-disc works or recitals (and even then, I don't miss it much).

[Moonfish]

Could you guys please educate me about the importance of a DAC?  I'm a neophyte in terms of their importance.  Some people on the boards suggest to use a low level cd player (e.g. an Onkyo 7030) and connect it via a DAC to the amplifier/receiver.  Would such a setup greatly improve the sound or is it just a matter of convenience for connecting one's computer and other digital devices to one's stereo system?

[Moonfish]

You don't want to live without your multi. I tried. You have a lot of boxes to get through; you need good tools!

True! True! But a high level single disc player seems to shimmer like a fancy BMW. I was spoiled with my previous multi. I guess it just is a matter of habit. Your multi Onkyo certainly has received mixed reviews on Amazon. It seems as if one either receives a functional item or a lemon. A very bipolar set of reviews! 

[Moonfish]

I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.



Marantz SA8005: least expensive and can serve as a DAC for other sources such as computer

The Marantz is very alluring! It is chunk of change though.....   Would the awe factor of such a unit make it a worthwhile investment?
The Marantz PM8005 and SA8005 seem like a great combination!

[Moonfish]

Hmm, now I am considering a major overhaul of my system [it has been 15 years after all]. Any interesting combinations to recommend in the price range of about 2-3k for an amplifier,  a cdp as well as a pair of speakers?     I need your knowledge and experience! 

[Todd]

Source:
Oppo BDP-103


Amp/Receiver:
Outlaw RR2150

Emotiva Fusion 8100

NAD C326 BEE

NAD C316 BEE

Marantz PM6005


Speakers (assumes USA):

Salk Sound SongTower

Salk Sound SongBird

Philharmonic Audio Slims

[Moonfish]

Source:
Oppo BDP-103


Amp/Receiver:
Outlaw RR2150

Emotiva Fusion 8100

NAD C326 BEE

NAD C316 BEE

Marantz PM6005


Speakers (assumes USA):

Salk Sound SongTower

Salk Sound SongBird

Philharmonic Audio Slims

Thanks Todd!
Any specific reason behind the Oppo (blu-ray capacity?)?  If those speakers sound as beautiful as they look I will be in nirvana! Amazing!
Thanks for your suggestions. I was checking the specs of the Marantz PM6005, but I had not yet considered the NAD, Outlaw or the Emotiva.

[Ken B]

True! True! But a high level single disc player seems to shimmer like a fancy BMW. I was spoiled with my previous multi. I guess it just is a matter of habit. Your multi Onkyo certainly has received mixed reviews on Amazon. It seems as if one either receives a functional item or a lemon. A very bipolar set of reviews! 

Yes, early models had problems. That's a feature not a bug. The price is lower that way!

The Onkyo has a good DAC but my Marantz amp has a better one. So i hook the CD player to the amp with a digital cable. If you have a high end older no DAC amp you might want a CD player with a new DAC. Otherwise you will use the digital out.

[Todd]

Any specific reason behind the Oppo (blu-ray capacity?)?  Also, is the price for the Salk speakers per pair or per speaker?

The Oppo plays CD, BD, DVD Audio, and high res audio discs.  Sound quality is far better than its price point implies.  I own both the BD-83 (bedroom system video, non-CD audio) and BDP-103 (home theater).  Picture quality is also superb, if it is used for video.

Salk prices are per pair.  Salk and Philharmonic have price-to-performance ratios that are off the charts.  The drive units used in the SongTower cost more than the units used in some speakers in the $5K-$8K/pair range.  The Hiquphon tweeter in the Salks has one of the best measured CSD plots of any tweeter on the market, regardless of price, and not surprisingly, the clarity of the speakers is most impressive.  (I own three pairs of Salks, including the SongTower.)  Dennis Murphy designs crossovers for Salk and he owns Philharmonic Audio, so the sound would be quite similar between the brands.  He is also an amateur orchestral musician, so he voices with an ear for classical music specifically.

[Moonfish]

The Oppo plays CD, BD, DVD Audio, and high res audio discs.  Sound quality is far better than its price point implies.  I own both the BD-83 (bedroom system video, non-CD audio) and BDP-103 (home theater).  Picture quality is also superb, if it is used for video.

Salk prices are per pair.  Salk and Philharmonic have price-to-performance ratios that are off the charts.  The drive units used in the SongTower cost more than the units used in some speakers in the $5K-$8K/pair range.  The Hiquphon tweeter in the Salks has one of the best measured CSD plots of any tweeter on the market, regardless of price, and not surprisingly, the clarity of the speakers is most impressive.  (I own three pairs of Salks, including the SongTower.)  Dennis Murphy designs crossovers for Salk and he owns Philharmonic Audio, so the sound would be quite similar between the brands.  He is also an amateur orchestral musician, so he voices with an ear for classical music specifically.

The Oppo certainly seems to be a hot item! Almost a futuristic compilation of functions/abilities!
Isn't the Oppo more geared towards home theater (visual) even though it plays cd/SACD?  Since (in my case) it would be completely devoted towards audio (not connected to a screen at all) wouldn't it be better to invest in a player geared towards just audio (e.g. Marantz SA8005)? I guess Oppo is a lot of bangs for the bucks. What do you think?

Btw I keep looking at those Salk speakers you recommended. They certainly come across well in the reviews as well as visually. Apparently pieces of art at the same time as they an audiophiles dream!

[Moonfish]

Yes, early models had problems. That's a feature not a bug. The price is lower that way!

The Onkyo has a good DAC but my Marantz amp has a better one. So i hook the CD player to the amp with a digital cable. If you have a high end older no DAC amp you might want a CD player with a new DAC. Otherwise you will use the digital out.

I can see how the price can drop! 

So you are bypassing the Onkyo's DAC?

[Todd]

Isn't the Oppo more geared towards home theater (visual) even though it plays cd/SACD?

The Oppo is great for audio.  Since it handles high-res audio and SACD, you get more for the money.  For straight CD playback, better is available, but not really at or near the price. 

[jlaurson]

Hmm, now I am considering a major overhaul of my system [it has been 15 years after all]. Any interesting combinations to recommend in the price range of about 2-3k for an amplifier,  a cdp as well as a pair of speakers?     I need your knowledge and experience! 

...you might want a CD player with a new DAC...

My idea of an old fashioned stereo chain in a modern world would either look like this, or this:

version 1
Digital Source(s)	...	--->	DAC+CD/SACD Player	--->	Amplifier	--->	Speakers
version 2
Digital Source(s)	...	--->	DAC+Pre-Am+Headphone-Amp			--->	Active Speakers
						--->	Headphones

Digital sources in version one being a computer, a streamer, a network player... the like. Same, really with version 2, except there it might also include (multi-format) hardware players... but i.e. a less expensive CD player that can be tapped via digital out to take advantage of a fine dedicated DAC/Pre-Amp.

Of course it's possible to split up Pre-Amp and Headphone Amplifier or simply not bother with the latter, if one doesn't listen that way.

My choice of DAC/CD/SACD Player currently is the Yamaha  CD-S2100, esp. in combination with its Amp-brother A-S2100. A few Marantz-combos are very comparable in functionality.

My choice of speaker is a little specific and perhaps does not merit broad/general recommendation; Thiel SC-4T. (I'd have gotten the Thiel SC4 had it not been for a great price and happenstance and the dark cherry available in one but not the other... in any case a mute point, I think, because the SC-4T, identical except for having what is essentially an integrated stand (at too high a price, I find, if one were to pay list price) is discontinued; the SC4 continues strong.) http://www.thielaudio.com/

[The new erato]

Anybody buying a dedicated CA/SACD player these days should make sure that it has a large and versatile selection of digital inputs (eg that its signal processing elements works independently from its mecanical disc player). That way the most important parts of it are useful even for other formats than CD and other sources than the disc tray.

Ideally I would want a WiFiconnection as well, though I don't this this is generally offered.

Personally I have bought my last CD player and will go the separate DAC route at the next crossroads even if I will continue to buy CDs.

[Fëanor]

My idea of an old fashioned stereo chain in a modern world would either look like this, or this:

version 1
Digital Source(s)	...	--->	DAC+CD/SACD Player	--->	Amplifier	--->	Speakers
version 2
Digital Source(s)	...	--->	DAC+Pre-Am+Headphone-Amp			--->	Active Speakers
						--->	Headphones

Digital sources in version one being a computer, a streamer, a network player... the like. Same, really with version 2, except there it might also include (multi-format) hardware players... but i.e. a less expensive CD player that can be tapped via digital out to take advantage of a fine dedicated DAC/Pre-Amp.

Of course it's possible to split up Pre-Amp and Headphone Amplifier or simply not bother with the latter, if one doesn't listen that way.

In the end there is nothing that beats all-separates for versatility, especially if you ever expect to upgrade, i.e.

[Digital source => DAC] and/or [Turntable + cartridge => phono pre] and/or Tuner =>
Preamp=>
[power amp => speakers] and/or [Headphone amp => headphones]

OTOH money can be saved by combining.  So the long-time standard combo is [phono pre+preamp+amp+headphone amp] which we fondly call an 'integrated amp' or the [phono pre+tuner+preamp+power amp+headphone amp] which we call a 'receiver'.  I'd avoid combining components that are fast evolving such as a DAC with other components.

[Pat B]

How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?

[Todd]

How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?

From an engineering or marketing perspective?

[Pat B]

From an engineering or marketing perspective?

Exactly.

[Fëanor]

How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?

Pretty fast from a technical perspective, I'd say, as are peripheral technologies such as USB and S/PDIF decoders.  The latest devices will usually handle high resolution files, e.g. 24 bit/192 kHz, and some decode DSD, (SACD-style), as well as PCM encoded files;  this is significant with the greater availability of hi-rez downloads from many online sources.  Also, the latest DACs are virtual immune to "jitter" thanks to asynchronous USB inputs and/or reclocking the incoming bit streams.

Pretty fast from a marketing perspective too, not unexpectedly.  Needless to say not everybody considers all the advances to be improvements, but that's the nature of audiophiles.

[Pat B]

Needless to say not everybody considers all the advances to be improvements, but that's the nature of audiophiles.

Yeah, count me among the skeptics. As far as I'm concerned, the DAC problem was solved 25 years ago, and jitter has never been a problem.

ETA: though an outboard DAC might be a good investment when outputting from a PC or TV as those are likely to have poor (extremely cheap) analog sections.

[Fëanor]

Yeah, count me among the skeptics. As far as I'm concerned, the DAC problem was solved 25 years ago, and jitter has never been a problem.

ETA: though an outboard DAC might be a good investment when outputting from a PC or TV as those are likely to have poor (extremely cheap) analog sections.

There are some nice older DACs.  A few pundits insist that the older "ladder" DACs are still the best sounding and there has always been a lot of dissention about oversampling.  Those older DACs won't handle 24 bits, but then again not everyone agrees that hi-rez is significantly better anyway.  In particular I'm skeptical the DSD encoding is really any better that PCM; I'm not rushing out to buy a new DAC just to have the DSD capability.

The de facto standard, Realtek DACs in computers are pretty poor compared to the excellent, standalone DACs available today.

[jlaurson]

The de facto standard, Realtek DACs in computers are pretty poor compared to the excellent, standalone DACs available today.

Oh, they're absolutely nasty!!! Fake reverb makes a total mess out of everything. Absolutely unlistenable, I find, after getting used to how it ought to sound. And entirely useless in the blind-listening Cello Suite thing. Every recording started sounding the same.

[Daverz]

I only have a few DSD downloads, but have yet to be impressed by the format.  It sounds a bit soft compared to the best PCM.

[HIPster]

Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A

I am considering this as a secondary CD player and it might be one for you to look into Allan ~

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161290-yamaha-cd-n500-network-enabled-cd-player.aspx?source=igodigital&

At its original $800 price, it looked attractive to me, but now, it seems even more so.  Any thoughts on this?

[jlaurson]

I am considering this as a secondary CD player and it might be one for you to look into Allan ~

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161290-yamaha-cd-n500-network-enabled-cd-player.aspx?source=igodigital&

At its original $800 price, it looked attractive to me, but now, it seems even more so.  Any thoughts on this?

German Audio magazine "Audio" rated it in issue 11/12... (which I have, but at home, so not available for detailed quoting)
It was then listed at 420 Euros, which is considerably lower (certainly at today's exchange rate, though not by as much then) than $800,-
It was listed at the same nominal level as players like Marantz CD-5004 & 6002, NAD C515 BEE, Denon CDC-720 AE, Cambridge 350 C and ahead of Yamaha CD-S300 & CD-S700 and a few others. A little below that they stop listing items... (The list tops out at 140, the Yamaha received 90)
These numerical ratings are nearly meaningless, of course, especially where functionality is concerned.

The Yamaha CD-N301, nominal price 350,- and probably the de-facto successor to the CD-N500 (although a N501 might well be forthcoming), was reviewed in the most recent issue, alongside Onkyo C-N7050 (400,-E) and Arcam CDS27 (1000,-E). Point being that all of them have network functionality and a CD Drive and AirPlay and USB connectors, internet-radio capable et al.

But it has: No on-device playlist capability. It has no FF / Rewind. And most damning for classical music aficionados: It has no gapless playback. None of the three units have that, incidentally... which is where I might have stopped reading. Their sound-rating is, all caveats active, 95, 95 and 108. Not sure that helps at all... except for you to double-check that the model you are looking at HAS gapless playback.  EDIT: Oh, So the N500 does have gapless playback, it says right there on the site.

[marvinbrown]

  Dear all:

  I just upgraded my system.  I sold my Monitor Audio BX5 floorstanding speakers and bought the Monitor Audio Silver 8s:

 

  I also sold my Marantz PM6004 amp and bought the Rega Elex-R amp:

 

  I have kept my Marantz 6004 CD player as it has an ipod  usb connection that I use every now and then.

  The above combination provides a smoother sound than the Bronze range and the Rega amp is quite lovely.

  marvin

[Todd]

Some nice gear there.  I've owned two pairs of Monitor Audio speakers, and three Rega source components over the years.  They have always sounded superb.

[marvinbrown]

Some nice gear there.  I've owned two pairs of Monitor Audio speakers, and three Rega source components over the years.  They have always sounded superb.

  Thank you Tod. Which Monitor Audios did you own?

  The Silver 8s are the new Silver Range upgraded from the previous Silver  RX range. What attracted me to these speakers is the mid range driver which provides even more clarity, a feature I tend to look for when listening to classical music. These speakers are not as "forward" (for lack of a better term) as the previous silver range or even the Bronze range. The Rega Elex R amp is as musical as its younger sibling the Rega Brio R but more muscular. The net result is a smooth and musical as opposed clinical sound. I am very happy with this upgrade.

  I just wish I had more money to spend as the Gold range has just been upgraded- I can only imagine how wonderful they must sound.

  marvin

[Todd]

Thank you Tod. Which Monitor Audios did you own?

700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.

[marvinbrown]

700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.

  You are a lucky man  ! Usually the fairer sex likes the small sleek horrible sounding speakers LOL!!

  PS: I presume you had the Silver RX6, a very popular and excellent speaker, one of their best sellers.  This is not to be confused with the current upgraded Silver 6s.

  marvin

[Todd]

PS: I presume you had the Silver RX6, a very popular and excellent speaker, one of their best sellers.

It was the RS6 when I bought it, so at least two iterations ago.

The funny thing about that purchase is that my wife wanted new speakers to replace, of all things, some Sonus Faber Concertinos, which she described as "scratchy" sounding.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.

Ha! "The wifey: Master of the Living Room". Got blindsided myself years ago when the ex put the stops to my attempts to integrate a gorgeous pair of old B&W 805s into the living room. She felt the dome tweeter perched atop the speaker looked too much like a futuristic emergency siren. So out the door they went, sleek, elegant looks and all.

I'll never forget the reaction of the sales rep at the audio shop when I returned them. His opening mile-wide smile with the melodic, hopping "hello" died a fast death on his face the instant he noticed the speaker boxes I had in tow. Unfortunately his offer for a "home trial" didn't go as planned. Worked on me of course but he (and I) hadn't factored in the master of the living room.   

[marvinbrown]

  Gentlemen,

  If it is any consolation my speaker system is placed in a decent sized, unimportant room that my significant other hardly ever frequents.  I wouldn't dare put these speakers in the bedroom much less the living room.

  PS: I have a pair of Bose 161 speakers in my bedroom. Sleek , delicate beautifully designed to my significant other's satisfaction...........and unimpressively sounding, to say the very least to my dissatisfaction 

  marvin

[The new erato]

Regarding wives and wife friendlyness. My wife once bought me a pair of these as a present:



This rig is not mine, but these speakers (the grey flat panel ones) are over 6 feet high. I think my model was sligthly narrower and slightly higher, I couldn't find a picture of exactly the same model. Acoustat made a large series of speakers built around various configurations of their electrostatic panels.

They retired a few years ago after 20 years in the service of fine music. For some years they stayed in our living room, after we moved they ended up in a dedicated listening room.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

  Gentlemen,

  If it is any consolation my speaker system is placed in a decent sized, unimportant room that my significant other hardly ever frequents.  I wouldn't dare put these speakers in the bedroom much less the living room.

PS: I have a pair of Bose 161 speakers in my bedroom. Sleek , delicate beautifully designed to my significant other's satisfaction...........and unimpressively sounding, to say the very least to my dissatisfaction 

  marvin

What's a home without compromise?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Regarding wives and wife friendlyness. My wife once bought me a pair of these as a present:



This rig is not mine, but these speakers (the grey flat panel ones) are over 6 feet high. I think my model was sligthly narrower and slightly higher, I couldn't find a picture of exactly the same model. Acoustat made a large series of speakers built around various configurations of their electrostatic panels.

They retired a few years ago after 20 years in the service of fine music. For some years they stayed in our living room, after we moved they ended up in a dedicated listening room.

For such monsters those speakers are quite unassuming. But put a dome tweeter atop them and the ex-o-mine would've high-tailed it right out of the room...

[Bogey]

[Todd]

Santa Claus brought me the Schiit Fulla headphone amp/dac.  Roughly the size of a lighter, and meant for connection to computers or portable gear via USB, this little device is most delightful.  For a mere $90, it actually makes PC audio sound good.  (This assumes one has not plopped down for exotic soundcards, and so forth, which I most certainly have not.)  Sound is clearer, cleaner, fuller, weightier.  It can drive 250 Ohm headphones to unacceptably loud levels if needed.  No, it doesn't sound as good as a proper headphone amp fed a proper signal, but this is meant for work, where portability and inconspicuousness is preferred. 

[Bogey]

Santa Claus brought me the Schiit Fulla headphone amp/dac.  Roughly the size of a lighter, and meant for connection to computers or portable gear via USB, this little device is most delightful.  For a mere $90, it actually makes PC audio sound good.  (This assumes one has not plopped down for exotic soundcards, and so forth, which I most certainly have not.)  Sound is clearer, cleaner, fuller, weightier.  It can drive 250 Ohm headphones to unacceptably loud levels if needed.  No, it doesn't sound as good as a proper headphone amp fed a proper signal, but this is meant for work, where portability and inconspicuousness is preferred.

That's cool.

[Holden]

I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

[Fëanor]

My best equipment acquisition in 2015 has been the Multibit Upgrade to my Schiit Audio Bifrost DAC.

For the technically curious, "Multibit" refers to Schiit's use of a so-called "ladder" or "R-2R" DAC chip instead of the more common today, delta-sigma DAC technology.  The general R-2R type chip is used in all the so-called "NOS" (non-over sampling) DACs that some people consider the best technology.  However Schiit does oversample using a "DSP" (digital signal processing) chip ahead of the actual DAC;  they use a "closed form" filter that ensures that the original data samples proceed to the DAC, no just random interpolation points from the oversampling process.

The Bifrost Multibit is outstanding IMO, (at least in its price range, i.e. US$600); see HERE.  Frankly I have never heard more realistic and plausible sound.  Detail, timbres, instrument decays, and spacial information is all simply more believable than I have heard before.

For those better heeled than I, Schiit also offers up-market versions of the Bifrost Multibit in the Gungnir Multibit, $1250 and top-of-the-line Yggdrasil $2300, models.

[Bogey]

I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

Excellent to know.

[Pat B]

I just picked up a '90s Rotel integrated amp for my home-office system. So now I have:

Onkyo C-7030 -> Rotel RA-970BX -> Mission 731i

The amp is probably more power than I need for my room, but I'm very happy with the sound and hoping to stick with this for a while.

The Rotel replaces a Denon integrated amp (which I was also happy with though the Rotel is probably an upgrade) but I need the Denon in the living room.

[jlaurson]

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

This can only be underlined and set in bold. (So I did.)

I just tried listening to music through my computer (have no truly mobile DAC and my CD Walkman [don't laugh] died on me) on the road... and I had to stop with disgust, because it just sounded so ridiculous and bad. I'm far from claiming golden ears, I think cables are a field for elaborate hoaxes, largely, I think SACD/CD is overrated, mp3s underestimated etc. (Still, I cherish good equipment and I'm not deaf.) But with DACs you really hear a difference and the difference between listening through the sound card of your computer and bypassing that glut and getting the music through an external DAC should be as notable as hearing the music on headphones and hearing them in the subway when your seat-neighbour is listening to music on headphones. (Or something like that.)

[The new erato]

The amp is probably more power than I need for my room

Unless you have horn speakers you can NEVER have enough power. Not for playing real loud, but for the relaxed reproduction only a large amp can give even at low volumes, and for feeding enough current into the bass speakers at low frequencies and difficult impedances.

[Pat B]

Unless you have horn speakers you can NEVER have enough power. Not for playing real loud, but for the relaxed reproduction only a large amp can give even at low volumes, and for feeding enough current into the bass speakers at low frequencies and difficult impedances.

I'd say you want plenty of headroom, but I do think extra power at some point becomes overkill. Where that point is depends on your room, your speakers, and your listening habits. In my case, I suspect the next model down (40WPC) would still provide a lot of headroom, but used wattage costs a lot less than new wattage, and it seems like the 60WPC ballpark is the most readily available anyway.

For my big room, on the other hand, I would not go under 60WPC.

P.S. I love your music room and hope to have something like that at my next place.

[Mookalafalas]

Put together one of these systems--Mirage OMD-15 5.1) from various Ebay sellers (It has been out of production for some time).  I'm very happy with it.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

I am new to the headphone amp game, but I have been greatly enjoying my Fiio X1, which has no problem driving my Sennheiser HD 25 SP phones. I am interested in a headphone amp to use with my laptop (w/headphones), and also to drive a small stereo system for my office comprising the Fiio and a pair of powered speakers. Any suggestions for the headphone amp that will work well for all three applications (Fiio/headphone, Fiio/powered speakers, and laptop/headphone)? For a PC/Laptop, is it preferable to connect via 3.5 mm plug or USB? I want something portable (no tubes!!!) and affordable. I am favorably inclined toward Fiio products. Thanks.

[Fëanor]

...

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

Quite correct.  Most computer music player programs allow you to by-pass the Windows normal audio "stack" (series of programs) by one means or another.  The most common means are:

• 'WASAPI', (see HERE);  this is a Windows facility, or
• 'ASIO', (see HERE); this is an independent standard.

Computer music players such as Foobar2000 or JRiver support WASAPI themselves, directly or with a readily available plug-ins.  ASIO, on the other hand, usually is particular to your sound card or out-board DAC which very often will provide a Windows driver for their ASIO implementation.

[Spineur]

Last years, I bought this small pair of monitors for my office.  I did not want any more clutter (amplifiers etc) in my office which is not very large.  They are designed for near-field, perfect for a small room.  I am quite satisfied except for piano music, where my main sound system is superior.  I do not know why - perhaps the near field design ?  Strings and brass on the other hand sound great.

As for the source, I have an external DAC which I share with my main system,  but I found that my computer DAC (a hires chip) gives nice result with the following pieces of software
Infinity blade (a player developped by a japanese guy in his garage).  The best sounding player, with the worst UI.  http://oryaaaaa.world.coocan.jp/bughead/.  It needs ASIO4ALL or JPLAY to bypass windows (see previous post).  I also use Fidelizer, for the handling of memory and processes.

[Jay F]

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

I have this powered wireless speaker from Bowers & Wilkins, the Z2:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Wireless-Speakers/Wireless-Speakers/Z2

I liked the sound when it was transmitted via wi-fi router from iTunes for Windows from my LR to my BR, but sonic stuttering was frequent and annoying. So I recently purchased a laptop for my Z2, which I connect to the speaker using a male/male 3.5 headphone jack from the headphone output to the aux input on the back of the Z2. There's no more stuttering, but I don't think the music sounds as good as it did when it was streamed to the speaker. Is this my imagination? In both cases, the computers are from Dell and use Windows 7. Is there a DAC solution that would improve the sound?

TIA.

[jlaurson]

I have this powered wireless speaker from Bowers & Wilkins, the Z2:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Wireless-Speakers/Wireless-Speakers/Z2

I liked the sound when it was transmitted via wi-fi router from iTunes for Windows from my LR to my BR, but sonic stuttering was frequent and annoying. So I recently purchased a laptop for my Z2, which I connect to the speaker using a male/male 3.5 headphone jack from the headphone output to the aux input on the back of the Z2. There's no more stuttering, but I don't think the music sounds as good as it did when it was streamed to the speaker. Is this my imagination? In both cases, the computers are from Dell and use Windows 7. Is there a DAC solution that would improve the sound?

TIA.

Yes. ANY DAC solution will improve the sound. Just bypass the sound-card and plug a DAC -- any DAC -- into your USB slot, connecting it to the speakers directly, and you've taken out the largest source of distortion... the driver of your computer. (It's set up to make speech and some music sound vaguely impressive coming from horrible speakers... ("Realtek Audio Manager" is the main culprit in ThinkPads, for example; though the windows-own way of treating sound isn't much better.)

I happen to have a very simple Firestone Audio cute series dac  (and also a very, very excellent DAC in my CD player that I can use separately... but that's only marginal improvement over the initial great improvement), but I don't think recommending anything in particular is what serves you best. Just a big ol' YES to a decent DAC to feed your speakers with is the answer.

P.S. A few pointers on what I think is important in a DAC

1.) USB-in. Essential for your purposes.
2.) Digital RCA (75Ω) in. Convenient if not necessary... i.e. if you have another unit around that you might want to run through the DAC.
3.) Consider if you might also listen to headphones on a regular basis in that position. Then a combined DAC/Headphone Amp, of which there are a good number, would be worth a thought.
4.) Mobility would be less of a concern... from what you say it would need only be as mobile as your speakers and you have electricity outlets in the vicinity, it sounds like.

[Holden]

At work I have the Nuforce uDac2 connected to my laptop.

At home I have the Fiio E7/E9 which would probably be overkill for your system.

I also have the very good but inexpensive Fiio Q1 which will also bypass your computers own sound setup. The beauty of the Q1 is it's portability and ability to be powered solely by USB. The Nuforce is also USB powered and has an even smaller footprint than the Q1. There are many other options out there.

[The new erato]

I bought me a used, but recently renovated (brand new disc drive) DCS p8i CD/SACD olayer with digital inputs:

[Todd]

I bought me a used, but recently renovated (brand new disc drive) DCS p8i CD/SACD olayer with digital inputs:

Hope you got it at a good price since dCS ain't exactly bargain basement.  The best digital I've heard so far was a three box set up many moons ago that cost more than my current car.  I'm hoping my new digital goodie I got just today can compete with my memories of the dCS I heard.

[The new erato]

Hope you got it at a good price since dCS ain't exactly bargain basement.  The best digital I've heard so far was a three box set up many moons ago that cost more than my current car.  I'm hoping my new digital goodie I got just today can compete with my memories of the dCS I heard.

New price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500  0:). A trade in for a customer that upgraded to a larger DCS rig, from a dealer that were moving house and needed to clear house, with new drive and totally pristine. Built lik a tank and plays like an angel. Joins my Wadia 302 CD and Sony XA5400 ES SACD players.

One of the things that prompted the purchase except for the superb price, was that the DCS had a set of digital inputs and outputs so that its DAC can be used standalone with PCs and other drives.

[jlaurson]

New price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500  0:). A trade in for a customer that upgraded to a larger DCS rig, from a dealer that were moving house and needed to clear house, with new drive and totally pristine. Built lik a tank and plays like an angel. Joins my Wadia 302 CD and Sony XA5400 ES SACD players.

One of the things that prompted the purchase except for the superb price, was that the DCS had a set of digital inputs and outputs so that its DAC can be used standalone with PCs and other drives.

That is nice. And quite ahead of its time, really, given that this baby is a few years old by now... It was one of the main factors I chose the CD/SACD player I ended up with... except that switching inputs on it, from drive to USB takes a few seconds and so long as I have my spitfire mini DAC sitting right next to it, already attached to the amp, I'm often too lazy to bother. 

EDIT Additional question:

Has anyone any experience with portable DACs? I need one for my computer, which makes a mess of a sound without one.

Under consideration would be:

Dragonfly (I'm not drawn toward it, but if it really is the bee's knees...)
Denon DA-10
FiiO Q1 (mention has been made of this above) or other FiiO alternatives
Teac HA-P50SE / Onkyo DAC-HA200
or anything that's comparable.

Thanks!

[Todd]

New price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500

Now that is a nice price, particularly with a new drive. 

[Holden]

That is nice. And quite ahead of its time, really, given that this baby is a few years old by now... It was one of the main factors I chose the CD/SACD player I ended up with... except that switching inputs on it, from drive to USB takes a few seconds and so long as I have my spitfire mini DAC sitting right next to it, already attached to the amp, I'm often too lazy to bother. 

EDIT Additional question:

Has anyone any experience with portable DACs? I need one for my computer, which makes a mess of a sound without one.

Under consideration would be:

Dragonfly (I'm not drawn toward it, but if it really is the bee's knees...)
Denon DA-10
FiiO Q1 (mention has been made of this above) or other FiiO alternatives
Teac HA-P50SE / Onkyo DAC-HA200
or anything that's comparable.

Thanks!

If it's for a standalone PC I'd definitely go Fiio but not the Q1. The flagship Fiio E18 is highly rated as a portable or standalone DAC/amp.

I have the Fiio E9/E7 combination and for the price if is exceptional. Both products were updated to E9K and E17K and used together until the E9K was superseded by the K5. The E9k can still be found on sites like Amazon. It is an amazing amp for the price.

If you want portability then the E17k is still available. This is also the point where I'd bring in the Q1. I've got it and am very happy with the sound and its portability but it doesn't match my E7/E9 combo attached to my PC.

[jlaurson]

If it's for a standalone PC I'd definitely go Fiio but not the Q1. The flagship Fiio E18 is highly rated as a portable or standalone DAC/amp.

I have the Fiio E9/E7 combination and for the price if is exceptional. Both products were updated to E9K and E17K and used together until the E9K was superseded by the K5. The E9k can still be found on sites like Amazon. It is an amazing amp for the price.

If you want portability then the E17k is still available. This is also the point where I'd bring in the Q1. I've got it and am very happy with the sound and its portability but it doesn't match my E7/E9 combo attached to my PC.

Thanks much for this. Portability is key, as I don't need it at home but when I travel with my computer. At home I have a very nice DAC setup already.

[Holden]

Thanks much for this. Portability is key, as I don't need it at home but when I travel with my computer. At home I have a very nice DAC setup already.

Then the Q1 will serve you very well. This is what I use it for. If you do get it then make sure you also get an OTG cable with a micro USB at one end so you can listen to direct digital straight from your laptop/device.

[jlaurson]

Then the Q1 will serve you very well. This is what I use it for. If you do get it then make sure you also get an OTG cable with a micro USB at one end so you can listen to direct digital straight from your laptop/device.

OK... I may well go for it, lest I have the opportunity to compare to this and, say, the TEAC. (Which is high on my list, based on reviews such.)
But what about the OTG USB cable? USB-micro-B--> female USB-A?
I would have assumed that it has a USB cable that comes with it... from whatever USB-connection it features (most DACs seem to like USB-Tybe B -- although a portable device might well feature Micro-USB Type B) to my computer's USB... where I need a male USB Type A connector. A quick Amazon search for OTG USB cables shows that they all end in female USB-Type A... which makes me wonder where I'd plug that in.

My DAC at home accesses direct digital just by being plugged into the USB port of my computer with a regular ol' cable, bypassing the sound card of my computer (which really is the whole point, because that's what makes the music sound so crappy).

[Holden]

That's interesting. Why terminate a cable in USB female mode? Are they assuming that you will plug it into the cable, terminating in USB male, that comes out of your DAP? This was also the situation when I bought the lightning CCK for my iPhone/iPad. I just connected it to the short charging cable that came with my iPhone.

I wonder if a straight cable that is not OTG would do the job?

[jlaurson]

...
I wonder if a straight cable that is not OTG would do the job?

It does when I connect my computer to the non-mobile DAC.

[Kontrapunctus]

I've made a number of changes to my system since my last post, so here it is for the moment! 

DALI Epicon 2 speakers
SVS SB13 Ultra sub
PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue HP tube integrated amp
Esoteric K-03 SACD player
Oppo 105 Blu-ray player
VPI Scout 1.1 turntable/Ortofon 2M Black cartridge
Musical Surroundings Nova II phono stage
Audeze LCD-XC headphones
Nordost, Audio Analysis interconnects; Kimber Kable speaker cables

[Todd]

When I picked up a new DAC, I also picked up the Audioengine B1 Bluetooth receiver.  While it has its own (supposedly good) DAC, I bought it because I wanted a handy way to stream from my tablet, so as to expand the radio stations at my disposal by hundreds or thousands and to stream from Amazon and YouTube and what have you.  Set up literally could not be easier (plug it in, fire up a Bluetooth device, press connect) and sound quality is limited to the source material.  YouTube is usually surprisingly good, Amazon is a bit more variable though good enough for most non-classical and even some classical, radio stations online are variable with some good ones and some not so good ones, and other sources will be sampled I'm sure.  The clincher for me was the optical out, which I use to connect to my main system.  A nifty little device.

[Brian]

HELP



I'm starting long-term planning on big money purchases and finishing up my home, and with this laptop computer on the verge of an early death, it's time to prepare to get some kind of audio system.

I know nothing about audio systems. For the sake of responding to the rest of these questions, please assume I am a blithering idiot. I think I've seen DAC enough to know what it stands for (digital audio converter?), but...that gives you an idea of what you're dealing with.

Here are all sound-related things I currently have:
- a Samsung TV
- a Sony Blu-Ray/DVD/CD player for the TV, hooked up via HDMI
- a dying laptop with a CD drive
- sweet headphones (Audio-Technica M50)
- external HD

Here's what I aspire to be doing with music:
- playing CDs, SACDs, Blu-Rays on some kind of sound system
- beaming lossless downloads to the sound system (most of my MusicWeb reviews are FLAC copies now)
- still using the headphones when, say, lazing under the covers reading a book and listening to Schubert on a Saturday morning

My apartment is 600 sq. ft., so my "living room" is a small space open to the kitchen on one side and with a sliding door to the patio on another side. Which leaves only two proper walls. Space is very limited. There's a chance I'll get to move somewhere a bit nicer in September.

If it helps, I'm planning on replacing this creaky laptop with a "replace your computer" tablet like the Surface Pro. But really no new laptop computers these days have CD drives, so I figure some sort of dedicated sound system is now necessary regardless.

So what are the things that I need? Again, assume idiocy. Speakers. One of those things that sends stuff to the speakers. I really dunno. What bells and whistles are in the "cool add-on if you want to do this and that thing" category, vs. absolute essentials? What additional questions should I answer here?

One of the few things, besides speakers, I think is definitely on my shopping list is a USB DAC for tablet+headphones setup. Yea/nay?

Help?

[Mirror Image]

Brian, if you're looking for a laptop just get an Apple Macbook Pro. I currently own one and it's the best computer I've ever owned. For me, PC's have always been difficult to maneuver and extremely clunky. Apple's OS and the way the computer runs in general is intuitive and was designed by people who seem to want to make our lives easier. Apple computer also boast the best audio I've from any computer, so if you're looking for another laptop, keep this suggestion in mind.

As for a stereo system, you can never go wrong with Sony. I have a Sony amp, a Sony CD player, and a Sony MD player. I also own a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin-Vega center speaker, but, to be honest, I do most of my listening these days through my Apple iPod Classic via a SMSL headphone amplifier and a pair of Philips SHP9500 headphones. I rip all my CDs using 256 kbps, so the quality is excellent. This setup is located at my desk with my trusty Broyhill leather chair. My current setup certainly fulfills all of my needs.

[Todd]

A couple things.

First, a DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.  Very important, and stand-alone units run from maybe $50 to six figures.  Performance varies.

Second, how simple do you want it to be, and what kind of system do you want?  You could go quick and dirty, get a Bluetooth transmitter for your PC, buy a Bluetooth receiver (Logitech for cheap, Audioengine for slightly less cheap) and run that into a pair of powered speakers (Audioengine, say, or Emotiva Airmotiv speakers) and you're good to go with decent enough sound.  You can jump to something like a Sonos based system for some more flexibility.  You'd probably need a separate headphone amp, but there are plenty of reasonably priced options there.

Were I going quick and reasonably priced for a small setup for non-optical disc playback, I'd probably opt for the Salk Streamer and Salk Powered Monitors, or more accurately a variant thereof.  I own three pairs of Salk speakers, and they all sound great, so I know what I would be getting, and I'd see about having them build a pair of powered towers with a proper Class A/B amp rather than Class D.  (Check out the frequency plot on the current model.  Crazy flat for such an affordable speaker, and the measurements are accurate, and the Hiquphon tweeter is a beauty.) 

Ultimately, though, I demand higher quality and would need a better DAC and separates for pre-amp and amp, and proper speakers.  Budget dictates how far you go here.  There are thousands of answers in this type of set-up.

[aligreto]

As space constraints are at a premium for you you need as few boxes as possible. I saw the Arcam Solo advertised recently but I have not heard it yet. Some of the promo detail states....

"Featuring the latest Class G amplification the new Solo brings a level of sound quality unheard of in its class: an impressive 80 watts per channel using 8 ohm speakers and 125 watts using 4 ohm speakers.

In simple terms this means music is reproduced with stunning realism without the messy clutter.

Additionally the Solo has an integrated CD player which supports both CD & SACD playback, along with the customary FM/DAB radio tuner. Built in Bluetooth aptX facility gives you the ability to connect a Smartphone, iPAD or any Bluetooth equipped device so you can listen to worldwide Internet radio or songs stored on your phone/pad.

In fact it has several digital inputs plus four HDMI's so your TV/DVD/BLU Ray/Sky Box can be played through the Solo, making it the most versatile stereo on the market to date"

As stated above I have not heard this yet but I have owned Arcam equipment in the past and I have found it to be very good indeed. Perhaps you could consider something like this. Here is what it looks like....




Suitably sizes speakers to fit your available space could then be bought to make for a very compact but versatile system.

[Brian]

Thanks, Todd and aligreto (and Jens - that's right, I saw it ) - questions below because this is not simple enough yet 

A couple things.

First, a DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.  Very important, and stand-alone units run from maybe $50 to six figures.  Performance varies.

So it's used mostly for computer-to-headphones? Is it used for anything else? For lazy Sunday morning tablet/headphone listening, would something like this be an all-in-one solution?

Second, how simple do you want it to be, and what kind of system do you want?  You could go quick and dirty, get a Bluetooth transmitter for your PC, buy a Bluetooth receiver (Logitech for cheap, Audioengine for slightly less cheap) and run that into a pair of powered speakers (Audioengine, say, or Emotiva Airmotiv speakers) and you're good to go with decent enough sound.  You can jump to something like a Sonos based system for some more flexibility.  You'd probably need a separate headphone amp, but there are plenty of reasonably priced options there.

Thanks. Assuming (just for sake of argument) Audioengine Bluetooth receiver + powered speakers, add to this a CD/SACD/Blu-Ray player and that would be more or less a complete living room setup? Am I reading correctly that something like this has Bluetooth receiver built in already? I am genuinely this clueless, sorry.

Similarly...

Ultimately, though, I demand higher quality and would need a better DAC and separates for pre-amp and amp, and proper speakers.  Budget dictates how far you go here.  There are thousands of answers in this type of set-up.

Pre-amp??

As space constraints are at a premium for you you need as few boxes as possible. I saw the Arcam Solo advertised recently but I have not heard it yet. Some of the promo detail states....
Suitably sizes speakers to fit your available space could then be bought to make for a very compact but versatile system.

Thanks! Lack of pricing on the website scares me  - I am young (26) and by no means rich (professional writer) so budget is a major consideration and spending even a few thousand $$ on an audio system means skipping travel this summer, or staying in a low-rent apartment an extra year, or something like that.

Do you know the difference between the advertised Arcam for CD/SACD and the "Movie" version? Would audio playback be more or less the same? I would not be opposed to replacing my cheapo Blu-Ray player if it means an all-in-one movie/music box.

[Brian]

Thanks! Lack of pricing on the website scares me  - I am young (26)

Technologically speaking, I'm a terrible young person. Yesterday one of my friends started trying to teach me how to use an RSS feed. And my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.

[Mirror Image]

And my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.

And yet they're still your friends?

[Brian]

Brian, if you're looking for a laptop just get an Apple Macbook Pro. I currently own one and it's the best computer I've ever owned. For me, PC's have always been difficult to maneuver and extremely clunky. Apple's OS and the way the computer runs in general is intuitive and was designed by people who seem to want to make our lives easier. Apple computer also boast the best audio I've from any computer, so if you're looking for another laptop, keep this suggestion in mind.

As for a stereo system, you can never go wrong with Sony. I have a Sony amp, a Sony CD player, and a Sony MD player. I also own a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin-Vega center speaker, but, to be honest, I do most of my listening these days through my Apple iPod Classic via a SMSL headphone amplifier and a pair of Philips SHP9500 headphones. I rip all my CDs using 256 kbps, so the quality is excellent. This setup is located at my desk with my trusty Broyhill leather chair. My current setup certainly fulfills all of my needs.

Thanks for the sound system comments. (Uh, what's an MD player? Minidisc? You have minidiscs??)

As for Apple vs. PC, I have an Apple computer at my office - one of the huge fancy 28" new iMacs - and a PC laptop at home, so I've had ample time to compare. There are definitely major advantages and disadvantages to each; there are things about Apple I find easier, but also features that are clunky or annoying to me. Not going to make a totally uninformed decision, there.

And yet they're still your friends?

Well...it's usually 50s-60s jazz so I turn off the CDs when they hop in. 

[Todd]

So it's used mostly for computer-to-headphones?

A DAC is used to convert digital to analog and is in PCs, CD players, BD players, everything really.  It is separate from a headphone amp.  (Well, the two can be integrated.)

Thanks. Assuming (just for sake of argument) Audioengine Bluetooth receiver + powered speakers, add to this a CD/SACD/Blu-Ray player and that would be more or less a complete living room setup? Am I reading correctly that something like this has Bluetooth receiver built in already? I am genuinely this clueless, sorry.

Basically, yes.  You could get a Bluetooth receiver, plug the optical out into the optical in on an Oppo and then connect the Oppo analog outs (or digital out) to powered speakers like from Audioengine.  The Oppo units have volume controls. 

The Audioengine HD6 appears to include a Bluetooth receiver, so you could just plug an Oppo into those and then a Bluetooth transmitting device should be able to connect to the speakers as well.

(The Audioengine's are powered, but have passive crossovers, whereas the Salks I linked have a DAC and amplifier and active crossovers, which promises better sound, even with Class D amplification, of which I am generally not a fan.  That's a different set of issues, though.)

Similarly...Pre-amp??

A pre-amp is basically just the inputs and volume control section of a receiver or integrated amp.  Higher end gear tends to split each function up.  I happen to use a stereo pre-amp and a stereo amp, both with outboard power supplies, so five boxes total just to amplify what comes from the sources.  (My main rig has nine boxes, not including the two box headphone amp connected to it and the three/four [depending on configuration] piece turntable rig currently disconnected from it.)

[Mirror Image]

Thanks for the sound system comments. (Uh, what's an MD player? Minidisc? You have minidiscs??)

As for Apple vs. PC, I have an Apple computer at my office - one of the huge fancy 28" new iMacs - and a PC laptop at home, so I've had ample time to compare. There are definitely major advantages and disadvantages to each; there are things about Apple I find easier, but also features that are clunky or annoying to me. Not going to make a totally uninformed decision, there.

You're welcome. Yep, that's correct MiniDisc player. Read all about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

I don't actually own any MiniDiscs that have been released by a record label, but my dad owns a few. He even owns Miles' Kind Of Blue, which is a rare one on MD. Mostly I use MiniDiscs for recording as if I really enjoy a CD I just bought, I'll transfer the CD to MD, and, besides sounding fantastic, they come most in handy when traveling since they're so small.

As for the computer issue, I completely understand. There's always pluses and minuses to consider. Thankfully, for me, the positives of Apple outweigh the negatives.

Well...it's usually 50s-60s jazz so I turn off the CDs when they hop in. 

Very considerate of you. Personally, I'd make them suffer.

[Brian]

Basically, yes.  You could get a Bluetooth receiver, plug the optical out into the optical in on an Oppo and then connect the Oppo analog outs (or digital out) to powered speakers like from Audioengine.  The Oppo units have volume controls. 

The Audioengine HD6 appears to include a Bluetooth receiver, so you could just plug an Oppo into those and then a Bluetooth transmitting device should be able to connect to the speakers as well.

(The Audioengine's are powered, but have passive crossovers, whereas the Salks I linked have a DAC and amplifier and active crossovers, which promises better sound, even with Class D amplification, of which I am generally not a fan.  That's a different set of issues, though.)

Oppo = something like this?

The Salks come with a Chromecast adapter so I guess they'd work along similar lines. A friend of mine says his Chromecast has been a piece of garbage, though. Need to ask him for more info on that. Always in favor of better sound, of course, and Salks are pricier but not outrageous in terms of $$ or space taking-up.

If there was a shopping list like:
- Salk speakers
- Arcam or Oppo every-disc player
- Schiit USB headphone amp/DAC
- Bluetooth transmitter
...would that pretty much cover the bases for playing physical & downloaded/streaming music in the living room and on headphones?


Nine boxes?! Maybe I should visit you and see just how different music sounds in your living room vs. what it sounds like in mine...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Technologically speaking, I'm a terrible young person. Yesterday one of my friends started trying to teach me how to use an RSS feed. And my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.

Since I too do much of my listening in the car playing actual physical CDs, does that mean we are no longer friends?

[Brian]

Since I too do much of my listening in the car playing actual physical CDs, does that mean we are no longer friends?

Just that the rest of my friends are shocked/outraged at both of us!

[Todd]

Oppo = something like this?

The 105 is much better than the 103 in terms of analog audio output.  (I have both, plus the 93.)  It's worth the extra outlay if you plan on using the analog outs.  It also has a headphone jack, which is pretty good.  The 103 does not have digital inputs, so it would be a less flexible hub. 

I've not heard the Salk powered speakers, or the top Audioengine, but I can assure you that the Salks would sound significantly better than any Audioengine. 

Nine boxes?! Maybe I should visit you and see just how different music sounds in your living room vs. what it sounds like in mine...

My main rig is in a stereo room.  My living room system is only six boxes.  (All counts exclude speakers, of course.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Just that the rest of my friends are shocked/outraged at both of us!

And I don't even know the rest of your friends, or they me. But I would be the first person to admit my own "audio system" is for shit. I have a receiver, speakers, CD player, even a turntable in the living room; but I like to watch movies on my little 9" portable player while lying in bed, and I do most of my music listening these days in the car. Shocking/outrageous, I know.

[jlaurson]

HELP

Here are all sound-related things I currently have:
- a Samsung TV
- a Sony Blu-Ray/DVD/CD player for the TV, hooked up via HDMI
- a dying laptop with a CD drive
- sweet headphones (Audio-Technica M50)
- external HD

Here's what I aspire to be doing with music:
- playing CDs, SACDs, Blu-Rays on some kind of sound system
- beaming lossless downloads to the sound system (most of my MusicWeb reviews are FLAC copies now)
- still using the headphones when, say, lazing under the covers reading a book and listening to Schubert on a Saturday morning.

Very basic, as requested:

Source (digital) [usually converts to analog via its own Digital-to-Analogue-Converter or the sound card in your computer, but that's the first real quality issue. More anon.]

->

Amplification (Usually, but not necessarily, the Amplifier which usually, but not necessarily includes the job of selecting the source, adjusting the volume, and pumping the result to the speakers)

->

Reproduction (Speakers)


Now, you have different potential sources -- and it looks it would be best if you have digital sources and do all the quality converting to analogue in one dedicated place, a DAC. This DAC could be your CD/SACD player... which works if they have a digital-IN, but I think that's not the most convenient way to go about it.


To minimize boxes and, ultimately, expenses, I would probably make two elements central:

A great DAC with multiple digital inputs (for your CD/SACD player, for your laptop, for your TV)

Active speakers.

Active speakers (you said "Setup for Dummies", so excuse me if I state something too obvious) have the amplification built-in... the most obvious advantage of it being that you don't need an external amplifier... and that the amplification is matched exactly to the speaker, which eliminates a whole set of variables (which only ever reduce, rarely improve, the audio quality). They may seem expensive but given that you don't need that amp, they are a actually good bang for the buck. And you don't have to worry about cables as much as with passive speakers.


What else? Well... if you find the right machine as a DAC, nothing! In that case, it would be nice if that DAC could offer the following:

- Good Headphone Amplification (there are TONS of good DAC/Headphone Amps out there)
- Several Digital Line Ins to choose between from (including at least one USB!), and preferably via remote control... so that you don't have to plug in and out stuff, just to listen from a different source. That's essential, since when it comes down to listening-time, you don't want any inconvenience.
- Pre-Amp ability... namely a good potentiometer. Say what? Basically a quality volume knob. (There are active speakers with remote controls that have volume adjustment available for you, which could make this optional... though the kind of device you would find that offers all the other things you need will likely have this, too.

There is lots of choice out there... I name only those that I know would qualify. None of this is a recommendation per se, as my setup is passive and slightly different and slightly more cumbersome...

...but, if you opt for this minimal boxes/maximum quality setup, you could look at things like the Oppo HA-1, Ayre Acoustics Codex, Cary Audio DAC-200ts, NAD C 510 Direct Digital Preamp DAC, Burson Audio Conductor Virtuoso, Mytek Manhattan DAC, Box Designs by Pro-Ject Stream Box RS (!), Fostex HP-A8C, Benchmark DAC1 HDR or Benchmark DAC2 (!), NAD has interesting products along those lines (and are known for value)...

Now you are (almost) independent of how fancy your CD player is... you could get a wonderful old mid-1990s Philips player used (they react much faster than what you'll be used to and the drives are good and the DAC you don't care about anymore, because they have a digital out)... or use whatever you have... and use your computer for Hi-Fi purposes by plugging the DAC into the USB out.

[aligreto]

Do you know the difference between the advertised Arcam for CD/SACD and the "Movie" version? Would audio playback be more or less the same? I would not be opposed to replacing my cheapo Blu-Ray player if it means an all-in-one movie/music box.

I do not know these products as I have not actually seen them yet but I would assume that the CD/SACD only plays those two media whereas the  "Movie" version would play those two plus Blu Ray. Here is a link to the Arcam site if you wish to investigate further....

http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,Solo,Music-Systems,solomusic-cs.htm

[Spineur]

For those that are continually running out of memory space on their DAP, Samsung has announced a 256Gb microSDXC for june.  Price probably 200USD or more.
It will be interesting to see if Sandisk will match this & help drive the price down.

Anyway I badly need one of those...

[Todd]

Last month, after an almost two month wait subsequent to ordering, I got both the Schiit Bifrost Multibit and Schiit Yggdrasil DACs.  The Bimby is used in my 2.1 channel home theater and the Yggy is used in my main stereo.  I did perform some A/B comparisons between them in my main system before putting the Bimby in its new home, and the Yggy is unequivocally superior.  Both are superb, and offer great bang for the buck.  How much of the units' performance is due to the multibit conversion (they are ladder DACs as opposed to the more common Delta-Sigma approach), how much is due to the Schiit specific digital filter, and how much is due to other factors, I cannot say.  I have kept some very rough notes on some listening - for instance, I don't recall having heard vocalizing by Walter Gieseking before - and I may write up something more detailed later.  For now, I have finally reached a place where my system displays the same level of clarity as (my perhaps faulty memory of) the two best systems I've heard before - a dCS/Nagra/ProAc setup, and a Muse/Spectral/Avalon setup.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

I am leaning toward buying a pair of Audioengine A5+ powered speakers for a second system (my office). http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Powered-Speaker-Systems/A5-plus-N-Powered-Speakers They have received numerous enthusiastic reviews and are listed as a Stereophile Class C speaker system under "recommended components"--this alongside much more expensive passive speakers needing amplification.

Source will be my Fiio X-1 and/or laptop with a 3.5mm cable, or possibly bluetooth.  I think the X-1 will have more than enough power for this, but will get a headphone amp if necessary. AS for the laptop, I am not sure what I will need to improve the sound quality--possibly the same amp. All my source files are FLAC. I am unsure about which floorstands (I need about 30" height, I'm guessing) to buy or even how the speakers are secured to the stands. (My Vandersteen 2Ces are bolted to dedicated stands in my other system, but Audioengine does not offer dedicated floor stands for their speakers.)

Any suggestions for such a system for a small room?

[Fëanor]

Last month, after an almost two month wait subsequent to ordering, I got both the Schiit Bifrost Multibit and Schiit Yggdrasil DACs.  The Bimby is used in my 2.1 channel home theater and the Yggy is used in my main stereo.  I did perform some A/B comparisons between them in my main system before putting the Bimby in its new home, and the Yggy is unequivocally superior.  Both are superb, and offer great bang for the buck.  How much of the units' performance is due to the multibit conversion (they are ladder DACs as opposed to the more common Delta-Sigma approach), how much is due to the Schiit specific digital filter, and how much is due to other factors, I cannot say.  I have kept some very rough notes on some listening - for instance, I don't recall having heard vocalizing by Walter Gieseking before - and I may write up something more detailed later.  For now, I have finally reached a place where my system displays the same level of clarity as (my perhaps faulty memory of) the two best systems I've heard before - a dCS/Nagra/ProAc setup, and a Muse/Spectral/Avalon setup.

I have had three Bifrosts:  original, Uber, and Multibit.  The original to Ubers was a modest improvement, but the Uber to Multibit was huge, particularly in detail and transparency.  Whether this is entirely due to the multibit/ladder DAC topology is hard to say because the upgrade also included an entirely new analog section -- and no DAC is better than its analog section -- but I suspect it's largely due to it.

Presently I'm using the Gungnir Multibit.  The "Gumby" is a modest upgrade to the "Bimby";  this might depend on using the former's balanced output, which, in turn, depends having a balance preamp or integrated.

[Spineur]

The long journey to dematerialized music

I  started ripping all my CD collection and buying hires (96kHz/24bits or DSD64) recordings at the end of last year.  6 months later and over a Terabytes worth of data, I am near the end.  Considering the large of time necessary to convert this CD collection into flac files, I can no longer afford a disk crash.  This is why I just bought this NAS configured in RAID 5: (4-1)*3=9 Terabytes worth of usable space.  This ought to be sufficient for a while.  I had lots of hesitations between Synology vs QNAP options.  Time will tell if I made the right choice

This is unfortunately not the end of the road...

[Fëanor]

The long journey to dematerialized music

I  started ripping all my CD collection and buying hires (96kHz/24bits or DSD64) recordings at the end of last year.  6 months later and over a Terabytes worth of data, I am near the end.  Considering the large of time necessary to convert this CD collection into flac files, I can no longer afford a disk crash.  This is why I just bought this NAS configured in RAID 5: (4-1)*3=9 Terabytes worth of usable space.  This ought to be sufficient for a while.  I had lots of hesitations between Synology vs QNAP options.  Time will tell if I made the right choice

This is unfortunately not the end of the road...

All hard disks -- and all other media for that matter -- eventually fail:  backups are essential or you will loose your data.  Redundant backup and off-site backups are very desireable.

RAID level 5 seems like a bit of over-kill to me;  level 1, two fully duplicated disks, is good solution of most home users for daily operation.  However at least one additional backup is desirable, and it is a great idea that it be off-line and preferably off-site.

Window 10 offers a "Storage Places" option that allow various types of backup including what is essentially a RAID 1 option.  Unfortunately this isn't a 'NAS' option so you computer must be running and the relevant drive defined to permit access by other computers on your home network.  Unlike RAID, the drives used don't have to be essentially identical to each other.

I have my Win 10 "Storage Pool" consisting of two USB3, 5 terabyte drives which is more than adequate for my approx. 1 TB or music plus all my videos and other data.  I do have multiple other drives on other computer and portable drives on which occasionally back up all data for further redundancy;  I use the Free File Sync program to perform these additional backups, (see http://www.freefilesync.org/);  it's a GPU freeware program.

[Spineur]

I have a couple sound systems at home and I need to beam the media to one or the other or both.  Bluetooth or a network system is the only way to do this.  I still havent figured out whether to install a PLEX server or the Kodi apps on the NAS.  The idea is to get rid of any computer, attached drive etc... and pilot the NAS with the IR remote or a phone/tablet.

There is a dedicated sound card on this NAS with a RealTek ALC262 chip.  Its one of the cheaper hires DAC, but because of its dedicated sound card with its own regulators and filters, the result may not be too shabby.  If it is the case, I wont need to buy a second DAC.

This solution is somewhat expensive, mostly because NAS drives cost quite a bit more.  Probably because companies are such good suckers...

However, this means fewer boxes left.  For my main system, 1NAS, 1TV, 1 amplifier, and the speakers.  In addition the blue-ray/CD/HDD recorder/player is still necessary for the time being, but in the long run, it may become redundant.
For the second sound system, my network DAC and my active speakers is the only stuff I need.

In a while, I'll give you some feedback when everything is fully operational.

[jlaurson]

Latest on Forbes:


Headphone Exploration At Munich's HIGH END
The HIGH END trade fair in Munich, which takes place every May, is the place to be for audiophiles. If you are going there to be inspired, it helps to have deep pockets, of course – and if they are, they won't be deep for long, after having taken a whiff at all the new toys and gadgets that serve to empty them with the promise of aural bliss. But even in the audiophile segment of high prices and diminishing returns for value (think a pair of speakers for 20k or 200k or the like), there are pockets (as it were) for modest budgets...

[Todd]

A few weeks ago, my seven or eight year old el cheapo Insignia executive system all-in-one box gave up the ghost.  I use it in the garage whilst exercising, so while I had to replace it, the new unit had to meet three criteria: it had to be cheap, reasonably reliable, and cheap.  Why not Insignia again, I thought?  The NS-STR514 is a $130 stereo receiver, and it more than fit the bill.  Rated at 100 Wpc - though I would not test that claim with my speakers - it has four analog inputs, a built in Bluetooth receiver, and, of course, a tuner section.  The main laminated core transformer is surprisingly beefy.  Sound is more than good enough for my needs.  And the pleasant surprise here is the tuner section.  It has better selectivity than the stand alone Rega and Naim units I use in other systems, and sound is good.  The tuner alone is worth the meager asking price.  I'm hoping to get seven to eight years out of this.  I may even buy a backup.

[andolink]

My newly reconstituted two-channel gear:

Stereo: Audiolab 8200CD >>Simaudio Moon Nēo 340i >>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's + SVS SB12-NSD

Headphones: Audiolab 8200CD (balanced XLR) >>Balanced Cross-feed X6B >>Audio-gd NFB-6 (balanced XLR) >>Norse Skuld 2 Litz UPOCC >>HiFiMan HE-500

[The new erato]

Dynaudio is top notch gear.

[andolink]

Dynaudio is top notch gear.

My ears are teling me you're right.   Excellent synergy with the Simaudio amp.

[71 dB]

My newly reconstituted two-channel gear:

Stereo: Audiolab 8200CD >>Simaudio Moon Nēo 340i >>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's + SVS SB12-NSD

Headphones: Audiolab 8200CD (balanced XLR) >>Balanced Cross-feed X6B >>Audio-gd NFB-6 (balanced XLR) >>Norse Skuld 2 Litz UPOCC >>HiFiMan HE-500

Hi Andy! Nice to see the crossfeeder as part of your great system. 

What's with all those hands? The colours are a great match with the painting. Looks nice.

[Rinaldo]

I thought you guys were serious about audio quality but now I know you're all losers!

Japan's music fanatics want personal grid connection; 'electricity is like blood'

[Spineur]

I thought you guys were serious about audio quality but now I know you're all losers!

Japan's music fanatics want personal grid connection; 'electricity is like blood'

Yes I had read that article.  Amazing! Clearly for this guy, extreme is the word.  Actually I would be interested to see his music library.  If you invest into your own power source, you better have some pretty amazing recording.  Another issue is the quality of silence in your home.  How many teenagers in the neighbourhood ?

[Fëanor]

Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?

Recently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)



I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

[andolink]

Hi Andy! Nice to see the crossfeeder as part of your great system. 

What's with all those hands? The colours are a great match with the painting. Looks nice.

Hi Poju,

Just today saw your reply today.

The hands are, mostly, industrial glove molds--one of my wife's interior decorating ideas as is the dress form just to the right.  The color scheme is also my wife's choice but I selected the painting.

Your crossfeeder is still working perfectly BTW. 

[71 dB]

Hi Poju,

Just today saw your reply today.

The hands are, mostly, industrial glove molds--one of my wife's interior decorating ideas as is the dress form just to the right.  The color scheme is also my wife's choice but I selected the painting.

You're crossfeeder is still working perfectly BTW.

Hello Andy!

I like your wife's interior decorating ideas (the hands more than the dress form).

The painting is well selected. 

Good to hear the crossfeeder is working and hopefully giving value for your money.

[The new erato]

Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?

Recently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)



I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

Very nice handywork!

[71 dB]

Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?

My loudspeakers (5 * "Hifi 6/2" + a passive subwoofer "Hifi 55/2") are kits designed by a Finnish guru for Finnish Hifimagazine. The wooden cabinets were pre-made (I can't do much wood work myself) so it was about soldering the crossovers and putting the electrical parts together in the cabinets.

Recently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)

Designing loudspeakers is very difficult and requires experience. So many things has to go right. For example, your speakers might suffer from uneven directivity of the two drivers around crossover frequency. Depends on how high or low the crossover frequency is. How about the balance of power response and frequency response on the radiation axis? How about the phase on crossover frequency? How about the bass reflex port tuning and the size of the cabinet? How about the resonances created by crossover capasitors and driver voice coil inductances? There is so much that can go wrong in less experienced hands. I am not saying your speakers suffer from these problems. When you are aware of them, you can try to avoid them.

I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

These loudspeakers of yours look very nice! Especially the red ones look awesome!  0:)

[Fëanor]

Designing loudspeakers is very difficult and requires experience. So many things has to go right. For example, your speakers might suffer from uneven directivity of the two drivers around crossover frequency. Depends on how high or low the crossover frequency is. How about the balance of power response and frequency response on the radiation axis? How about the phase on crossover frequency? How about the bass reflex port tuning and the size of the cabinet? How about the resonances created by crossover capasitors and driver voice coil inductances? There is so much that can go wrong in less experienced hands. I am not saying your speakers suffer from these problems. When you are aware of them, you can try to avoid them.

This is all very true.  Using tools such as Bass Box Pro and X-Over Pro makes it a lot easier, however one must be aware of the issues and use common sense selecting the drivers and crossover points.  2-way systems are a easier to design than 3-way which I haven't attempted.

My first speakers were of my own design but the good news is that many designs of experts are available online -- you alluded to one instance.

These loudspeakers of yours look very nice! Especially the red ones look awesome!  0:)

These second speakers, as I mentioned, are based on a published design from Zaph Audio, though I used a slightly small cabinet than the ones specified; (in used Bass Box Pro to ensure the right vent port length).

Speaking of the cabinets, I purchased these in knock-down form for Parts Express, (see HERE).  The reason is that I don't have a table saw which is more or less necessary to get the required precision, especially for larger panels.  As well as cutting the driver openings, I radiused the edges with a router, and I did fabricate the bases myself.

[mahler10th]

I have a quick question two quick questions for our resident Audiophiles.
Like John (MI), I have come to favor Sony equipment, mostly because I've spent buckets on all manner of mid-range stuff the past four years, and Sony always comes out very well.
However...
I am playing from a Sony BluRay disc player via optical out into a Marantz Amp out through excellent 1998 Rega Jura speakers.  I have Sony 5.1 speakers/amp hooked up also (seperate channel), and I cannot make my mind up if I should relinquish the Sony Surround (inc SWoofer) idea in favour of the more 'forward' sounding Jura speakers.  I am prone to think that the Rega speakers due to their so called 'high end' quality should be my choice of output, but the 5.1 setup does make the music 'full'.  I have plenty of DVD's and dongles with lots of digital music on, and I like to put them on too, which is why I have the BluRay...so...

Q1:  If I buy a dedicated CD player (probably Sony) would this be better than using a BluRay player for playing my CD's?  My concern is it will make no difference at all, but if its a dedicated CD player it may have a better DAC for CD music without BluRay and DVD infestation??   
Q2:  I am not sure that a 5.1 setup with all its Dolby and sound modes gives a natural sound - it is somehow more like studio sound.  5.1 Sony or the standalone Rega Juras?

God knows if I can be helped.  But thanks for reading all this palaver anyway...

[Parsifal]

I have a quick question two quick questions for our resident Audiophiles.
Like John (MI), I have come to favor Sony equipment, mostly because I've spent buckets on all manner of mid-range stuff the past four years, and Sony always comes out very well.
However...
I am playing from a Sony BluRay disc player via optical out into a Marantz Amp out through excellent 1998 Rega Jura speakers.  I have Sony 5.1 speakers/amp hooked up also (seperate channel), and I cannot make my mind up if I should relinquish the Sony Surround (inc SWoofer) idea in favour of the more 'forward' sounding Jura speakers.  I am prone to think that the Rega speakers due to their so called 'high end' quality should be my choice of output, but the 5.1 setup does make the music 'full'.  I have plenty of DVD's and dongles with lots of digital music on, and I like to put them on too, which is why I have the BluRay...so...

Q1:  If I buy a dedicated CD player (probably Sony) would this be better than using a BluRay player for playing my CD's?  My concern is it will make no difference at all, but if its a dedicated CD player it may have a better DAC for CD music without BluRay and DVD infestation??   
Q2:  I am not sure that a 5.1 setup with all its Dolby and sound modes gives a natural sound - it is somehow more like studio sound.  5.1 Sony or the standalone Rega Juras?

God knows if I can be helped.  But thanks for reading all this palaver anyway...

If you are using "optical out" on your blu-ray player the signal is entirely digital and is being converted to an audio signal by a DAC in your Marantz amplifier. The blue ray player is doing nothing but passing the digital data without any alteration. If you switch to a CD player and continue to use optical out there will literally be no difference. It is possible that a CD player connected using analog cables could have a better DAC than your amp, but Marantz is a highly regarded brand, so it would probably have to be a high-end CD player.

As for the speakers, let your ears be the judge. If the 5.1 setup gives you more pleasure go with it. If you have the space, there might be an advantage in having both sets of speakers available, you may find that some recordings sound better on one set of speakers and some recordings sound better on the other.

[mahler10th]

If you are using "optical out" on your blu-ray player the signal is entirely digital and is being converted to an audio signal by a DAC in your Marantz amplifier. The blue ray player is doing nothing but passing the digital data without any alteration.

Many thanks Scarpia.  Your opening two sentences alone help me understand a lot more as to what to do!  I should've known this about Optical Out, but alas, I did not.  But now I do!   

[Parsifal]

You're most welcome.

[Todd]

Schiit is moving into two channel gear.  They're releasing two hybrid pres - tube active, solid state buffer, and passive - and one amp that can be stereo or bridged to mono, and the prices are crazy low - $350 or $700 for the pres, and $700 for the amp.  I never like to be a first production run buyer, but sometime mid-next year, I may end up 'downgrading' my bedroom system.  I just wonder if they go for higher spec stuff later.

[Fëanor]

Schiit is moving into two channel gear.  They're releasing two hybrid pres - tube active, solid state buffer, and passive - and one amp that can be stereo or bridged to mono, and the prices are crazy low - $350 or $700 for the pres, and $700 for the amp.  I never like to be a first production run buyer, but sometime mid-next year, I may end up 'downgrading' my bedroom system.  I just wonder if they go for higher spec stuff later.

That's interesting.  I've had several Schiit components:  DACs and headphone amp;  I've liked them all though right now I've just got the Gungnir Multibit DAC.  I'm very please with the Gungnir MB; it's driving an ARC LS9 preamp and thence a Pass Labs X150.5 amp, all by balanced connection.

The website isn't showing the tube active preamp or the amp yet.  I could be interested in the former as a possible replacement for my solid state LS9 provided it's balance, but I doubt that they can do a balanced tube pre for $700.  I don't see the amp replacing my Pass Labs though.

[Todd]

but I doubt that they can do a balanced tube pre for $700.

Here's the link with the press release.  Both the Saga and Freya pres are hybrid, and the Freya is balanced, as well.  The Vidar amp is singled ended in stereo mode, and balanced in monoblock mode.  The Saga is on the site now, and I believe the Freya will be next month, and the Vidar in Q1.  This article has an embedded interview with Moffat and Stoddard.

I've got three Schiit DACs in three systems - the Modi, Bifrost MB, and Yggdrasil - and I've done an A/B between the Modi and Modi MB (the MB is clearly better, though not by a colossal amount).  The Yggy is so good, that I'm thinking about getting another one for my 2.1 home theater as I will not be going multi-channel.  Rumor is an upgrade is coming next year, so I may wait, buy that for my main rig, and then move the current Yggy into home theater duty.  I've also got two Schiit headphone amps - original Asgard and Jotunheim - and bang for the buck is off the charts.  I have high, but realistic, expectations for the two channel stuff.

[Fëanor]

Here's the link with the press release.  Both the Saga and Freya pres are hybrid, and the Freya is balanced, as well.  The Vidar amp is singled ended in stereo mode, and balanced in monoblock mode.  The Saga is on the site now, and I believe the Freya will be next month, and the Vidar in Q1.  This article has an embedded interview with Moffat and Stoddard.

I've got three Schiit DACs in three systems - the Modi, Bifrost MB, and Yggdrasil - and I've done an A/B between the Modi and Modi MB (the MB is clearly better, though not by a colossal amount).  The Yggy is so good, that I'm thinking about getting another one for my 2.1 home theater as I will not be going multi-channel.  Rumor is an upgrade is coming next year, so I may wait, buy that for my main rig, and then move the current Yggy into home theater duty.  I've also got two Schiit headphone amps - original Asgard and Jotunheim - and bang for the buck is off the charts.  I have high, but realistic, expectations for the two channel stuff.

Wow ... I must say I'm impressed by Freya specs, especially that they will apparently offer a balanced tube gain stage for US$700.  I will give this some serious consideration to replace my ARC.

Freya
Balanced Remote Passive/Active Preamp
= Relay switched stepped attenuator (128 steps)
= Selectable passive, JFET buffer, or tube gain operation
= Tube gain stage uses (4) 6SN7 tubes and 300V rail
= 2 balanced inputs, 3 SE inputs, balanced and SE outputs
= Full remote control
= Shipping October 2016 for $699

It's November but it still hasn't shown up on the website.

I totally agree that Schiit components offer huge bang for the buck.  I'm owned the original Modi, Bifrost versions, viz. original, Uber, and Multibit, and the Asgard 2 headphone amp.  Presently I have the Gungnir Multibit -- I'd love the Yggdrasil but its a bit over the top of my price range.

I found the Bifrost Multibit a huge upgrade over the Uber version.  The Gungnir MB is a bit nice than the Bifrost MB but not hugely so except in the bass, and that might be because of the balanced connection

[Todd]

I checked out the Schiit site to see if the Freya is listed, and instead found the new Fulla 2.  A small, portable DAC/headphone amp combo, it has a bit more power, a Japanese designed DAC chip and a TI-designed filter and op-amp, has an analog in and out, and can be used as a DAC, and all for under a hundred.  My original Fulla has a small ding on it, so it may be time to replace it.

[Bogey]

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

[Sergeant Rock]

The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

Cool! That was my first turntable actually. Bought it at Camp (now Fort) McCoy Wisconsin along with a Fisher receiver and AR-2 speakers. Sweet sounding system.

[Bogey]

I have my dad's Sansui SP300 (the actual pair) and they still sound terrific.  However, would love a set of those AR's!

[Sergeant Rock]

I have my dad's Sansui SP300 (the actual pair) and they still sound terrific.  However, would love a set of those AR's!

Sansui, that brand brings up some memories That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge

[Bogey]

Sansui, that brand brings up some memories That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge

A young airman stationed and living on the same barracks floor with my dad thought it would be cool if he shared his "Sansui Sound" with the rest of the base by propping them in the windows and seeing what his months' of salary could do.  The MP's were not impressed.

[Harry]

 I had at a time 35 years ago a big Sansui amplifier, and two enormous Sansui speakers. At that time I found the the top, but not anymore

[Sergeant Rock]

A young airman stationed and living on the same barracks floor with my dad thought it would be cool if he shared his "Sansui Sound" with the rest of the base by propping them in the windows and seeing what his months' of salary could do.  The MP's were not impressed.

 

Mediating between competing sound systems (and between rock, soul and country) in the barracks after duty hours was a thrilling part of night and weekend CQ duty. (Charge of Quarters: being the junior NCO in charge of the company after the CO and senior NCOs had gone home.) Fun times 

Sarge

[Bogey]

I had at a time 35 years ago a big Sansui amplifier, and two enormous Sansui speakers. At that time I found the the top, but not anymore

Oh so true, but for me there is something about "home cooking" that appeals to me. So, my system downstairs will have this Dual, a Marantz 2230 receiver, and those Sansuis.  Hearing what it sounded like, or close to it during my younger years, is what I am trying to recreate.  Now, if I my wife would just allow me the shag carpet this room for further retro sound conditioning.

[aligreto]

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

Congratulations. Very nice TT. I hope that you derive much pleasure from it 

[Fëanor]

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

That's a nice, venerable Dual 'table.  I go back to that era in my hi-fi interest.

I don't have much nostalgia for my first system, though.  My first, circa 1972, consisted of ...

• Lenco L75 turntable
• Shure cartridge, upper mid-range;  don't recall the exact model
• Dynaco FM-5 tuner
• Dynaco PAT-4 solid-state preamplifier
• Dynaco Stereo 80 solid-state amplifier
• Dynaco A25 speakers

I assembled all the Dynaco electronics from kits.

Unlike so many people, I never had a receiver in my principle system.  My current stereo system may be seen HERE.

[Holden]

I also remember those vinyl days with some nostalgia. I eventually ended up with

Linn LP12

Grace F9E cartridge

Jantzen hybrid electrostatic speakers

Mclaren 701 100watt integrated amplifier (which I still have and use it's that good).

I also still have my Peerless MK1000 speakers from that era.

While it looks as if I spent up big, I didn't really as all that gear was acquired second hand.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

That's the record player I had as a youth! (Handed down from my step-dad.) I played every record ridiculously wet, not really knowing what I was doing. 

Meanwhile, perhaps of interest for some of you: I've compared seven mobile DACs (and a few headphones in the process) on Forbes... which make mobile listening to a laptop possible. It's a bit of a read, at 7000 words, but there's a conclusion at the end you can skip to. 

Review: A Mobile DAC/Headphone Amp Comparison

[drogulus]

Sansui, that brand brings up some memories That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge

     

     These are the Sansui SP-505J. I never had them, I have the woofers. They are great guitar and bass speakers for a low power tube amp.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

I am puzzling over a new audio rack. I have the following components:

- Oracle Delphi Mk. III/SME V arm
- Audible Illusions Modulus 2B preamp
- Nakamichi CR7a cassette deck (trying to find a new home for this--cheap!!!)
- Pioneer CD Recorder (not long for this world, CD playback works, but no longer record)
- ART Phono Pre ADC (replaces at least the record function on the Pioneer)

My audio dealer has one with four or five shelves for $1300 LOL

I am looking at these:

This one is a bit larger, which I like. I also like the lower cost (will buy one additional shelf): http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGVULRK&variation=RNT

However, this one seems to be a bit heavier-duty, with better construction overall:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SMA5

Any thoughts on these?

[71 dB]

After my pipe repair I put my audio system together again. I experienced some problems with the sound. I thought the reason is dust from the repair. I vacuum cleaned my amplifier. It seemed to help. A week ago trying out multichannel modes my amplifier went crazy. I panicked a bit, but then I realised the connection of main speakers wires to the speaker terminal were not as good as I had believed! I was able to get the system working tightening the terminals. At that point I realised these are the only 2x0.75² (~18 AWG ?) wires in my system, the original wires from early 90's when I bought my first pair of loudspeakers and got into hifi. My speakers are 8 Ω, so they don't require very thick wires.

My system has 5 identical* small (6 litres) speakers and a  passive subwoofer (55 litres) for frequencies 25-50 Hz. So, the wires to main speakers go first to the subwoofer and then the high pass filtered ( > 50 Hz ) part from the passive subwoofer to my main speakers. All other speaker wiring is done with 2x2.5² (~14 AWG ?). Makes not much sense to have 2x0.75² from amp to passive sub! So, I bought 10 meters of 2x2.5² for 17 euros. The speaker terminals of my amp seem to give much better connection when thicker wire is used.

My amp has got an ISC -circuit which measures the impedance of the speakers connected and optimizes the amp parameters for that impedance level. The faulty connection must have confused my amp for this reason. Now thanks to the new wires and good connection the amp is working perfectly. 


____________________________________
* Multichannel system works best if all the speakers are identical.
Not only are the frequency responses identical, but also phase responses.
A common mistake in multichannel systems is that the center speaker has
different phase response to the left/right speakers.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Listened to plenty amazing gear @highendsociety's Munich #highend2017, but nothing was more fun than hijacking @MartinLoganLtd's playlist! pic.twitter.com/d4zVG0sFRu

I'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi... where the increase in quality is painfully obvious and due to systemic reasons.
HD800s sound greater than most but the most expensive headphones that have come since... but Stax sound amazing and are to the HD800 what the latter were to all other headphones 5 years ago.
And the same -- or at least similar -- with speakers. A well-built unit like these simply does things that are amazing, though subtle. I'm looking forward to doing a nice A/B/C/D comparison between these speakers above, their entry model, and two conventional speaker pairs some time this year.

[aligreto]

Listened to plenty amazing gear @highendsociety's Munich #highend2017, but nothing was more fun than hijacking @MartinLoganLtd's playlist! pic.twitter.com/d4zVG0sFRu

I'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi... where the increase in quality is painfully obvious and due to systemic reasons.
HD800s sound greater than most but the most expensive headphones that have come since... but Stax sound amazing and are to the HD800 what the latter were to all other headphones 5 years ago.
And the same -- or at least similar -- with speakers. A well-built unit like these simply does things that are amazing, though subtle. I'm looking forward to doing a nice A/B/C/D comparison between these speakers above, their entry model, and two conventional speaker pairs some time this year.

Personally I find that electrostatics are best in the mid range and are at their best in reproducing the human voice and acoustic music. I, for one, look forward to your eventual comparisons and results 

[Todd]

I'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi

"Game-changer" is hyperbole generally reserved for new technology, not old tech that has been around for decades.  Martin Logans are usually just hybrid electrostats with standard dipole horizontal dispersion characteristics and good vertical dispersion characteristics, which can also be had with planars and symmetrical dynamic driver arrays.  There's nothing magical or unknown going on.  Some people like the sound, some don't.  One beautiful thing about them, though, is one can rely on the "measurements don't tell the whole story" approach more because certain key measurements (eg, CSD) are always terrible, but with such a design, these don't really translate well to real world audible results.  Personally, I dislike dipole designs (irrespective of driver type) precisely because of their dispersion characteristics. 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Personally I find that electrostatics are best in the mid range and are at their best in reproducing the human voice and acoustic music. I, for one, look forward to your eventual comparisons and results 

"Game-changer" is hyperbole generally reserved for new technology, not old tech that has been around for decades.  Martin Logans are usually just hybrid electrostats with standard dipole horizontal dispersion characteristics and good vertical dispersion characteristics, which can also be had with planars and symmetrical dynamic driver arrays.  There's nothing magical or unknown going on.  Some people like the sound, some don't.  One beautiful thing about them, though, is one can rely on the "measurements don't tell the whole story" approach more because certain key measurements (eg, CSD) are always terrible, but with such a design, these don't really translate well to real world audible results.  Personally, I dislike dipole designs (irrespective of driver type) precisely because of their dispersion characteristics. 

The technology is certainly old; about 100 years. And yes, what they do well will still depend on taste and preferences. It certainly appeals to MY preferences, it seems. Which is total transparency, directness, clarity... lightness. Hybrid electrostats seem reasonable compromises if they work well; A pure electrostat that would be great at doing bass and moving air in large rooms would have to be rather big -- to the point of being either impractical or too expensive.

[SonicMan46]

My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs - found the Cambridge unit below (likely will purchase from Crutchfield up the road to me in Virginia - 2 day free shipping + have some credit) - pics below of the front & back of this unit - assume I can just Toslink my HDTV to the digital port in the back; wondering about comments on Cambridge and also any specifics about their receivers.  Thanks - Dave
.

[Parsifal]

I was an NAD fanatic back in the day, but I had bad experiences from them in recent purchases and stay away.

I recently got a Yamaha RXV-379 which I am quite happy with.

[asin]B00V5VJ3TM[/asin]

It's not a Ritzy brand like Cambridge Audio, but has a very pleasant sound to my ear. (I use it for casual video viewing, not for serious music listening).

[HIPster]

My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs. Thanks - Dave

Hi Sonic Dave!

I bought one of these for a friend a few months ago.  She had the same issue as you here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005K2TXMO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This Fiio works really well; may be just what you need?

Cheers. 

[SonicMan46]

I was an NAD fanatic back in the day, but I had bad experiences from them in recent purchases and stay away.

I recently got a Yamaha RXV-379 which I am quite happy with.

[asin]B00V5VJ3TM[/asin]

It's not a Ritzy brand like Cambridge Audio, but has a very pleasant sound to my ear. (I use it for casual video viewing, not for serious music listening).

Hi Scarpia - had a Yamaha receiver back in the late 70s-early 80s which was replaced w/ my first NAD receiver, then in the late 90s bought the NAD C740 which 'broke' w/i a year; fixed under warranty and has been fine ever since, so near 18 years of use - BUT, will not accept any digital inputs.  Your receiver looks nice, however, I have a 4+" height w/o major changes in stereo furniture and not interested in other than 2-speaker sound - I'm liking the reviews on the Cambridge unit and the $500 cost is the same that I paid for my NAD back in the late 90s - thanks for the comments.  Dave

[drogulus]

My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs - found the Cambridge unit below (likely will purchase from Crutchfield up the road to me in Virginia - 2 day free shipping + have some credit) - pics below of the front & back of this unit - assume I can just Toslink my HDTV to the digital port in the back; wondering about comments on Cambridge and also any specifics about their receivers.  Thanks - Dave
.

     Is your HDTV recent enough to have Audio Return Channel (ARC). Most do, and I think most have for some years. You connect your devices to the correctly labeled receiver inputs (cable, DVD/BD, media player, PC, and the TV is connected to the HDMI out, which feeds video from the inputs to the TV while the TV can be selected as source and destination for the other sources. On my system cable is button 1, USB player 6, TV (for streaming) is 8, and if the streaming is wonky or I want to play 4k files, Roku is 3. You only use the one HDMI on the TV and 4 on the receiver. I don't have a DVD/BD player.

     I would recommend Marantz if your budget can handle it, one of these:

     

     I have an older non 4k version without HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, which this model has. It's quite similar to receivers by sister company Denon, only fiercer. At $499 it's a good deal.

     

[Parsifal]

I would recommend Marantz if your budget can handle it, one of these:

     

     I have an older non 4k version without HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, which this model has. It's quite similar to receivers by sister company Denon, only fiercer. At $499 it's a good deal.

I've been happy with my Marantz gear (2 channel integrated amp, no A/V features). You can't go far wrong with Marantz.

[drogulus]

I've been happy with my Marantz gear (2 channel integrated amp, no A/V features). You can't go far wrong with Marantz.

     This is a 7 channel amp, which means the power transformer has to be heavy enough to drive all channels to respectable levels, so for 2.1, 3.1, 4.1 operation it will have plenty of reserve power.

     I don't know why small slim receivers are not in demand. Only a few people can stand to be in a room with a 100 w/ch played loud.

     

[SonicMan46]

I bought one of these for a friend a few months ago.  She had the same issue as you here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005K2TXMO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This Fiio works really well; may be just what you need?........

Hi HIPster - bought my LG HDTV in 2011 - looked at those Toslink-RCA adapters on Amazon back then and a lot of mixed comments - likely have improved since then, i.e. translating more audio formats.  BUT, my NAD receiver is 20 years old and Father's Day just passed, so went ahead and 'pulled the plug' on that Cambridge receiver shown earlier - size is identical to the NAD so will fit in my stereo console, as is; plus, I liked the simplicity of the controls, so setup should be quit.  Thanks for the recommendation which is certainly worth a try for others in a similar situation.  Dave

P.S. thanks Scarpia & Drogulus for your additional comments - much appreciated.  The Cambridge receiver got great reviews on the Crutchfield website and also on Amazon (except for one silly 1*) - have not bought a stereo component in 6 years, so looking forward to its arrival.

P.S.S. also, I checked my LG HDTV's manual and found the page below mentioning ARC (Audio Return Channel) & SPDIF - have doubts that this would work w/ my 20 y/o receiver w/ only RCA analog inputs - don't know?

[drogulus]

     ARC is where you connect by HDMI into the receiver then HDMI out to the TV. You only connect to the TV once, because video goes out to the TV while audio goes back the same way. The TV is a source among other sources while it's a destination, too.

     Let's say I want to watch cable, I press input 1 on the receiver remote and cable is routed to the TV, now I want to watch Amazon Prime from the TV, I press 8 on the Marantz remote and choose Amazon on the TV, then I want to watch 4k files on my Roku, I press 3 on the remote and navigate to the file I want.

     All of this doesn't have to happen now, just connect the TV headphone out to your receiver and use the receiver headphone out to replace it. Connect all your devices to the other TV inputs and use the TV remote instead as the controller.

[Todd]

I'm contemplating swapping-out/"downgrading" my bedroom system to something more affordable.  Schiit officially released its Vidar amp today.  $700 for 100 Wpc into 8 Ohms, and bridgeable to 400 Wpc into 8 Ohms.  The already available Freya pre, a switchable Passive/JFET Buffer/Tube pre, is also only $700, so $1400 for regular stereo and $2100 for a monoblock setup.  The amp uses a beefed up version of the amplifier topology found in their superb Jotunheim headphone amp.  Decisions, decisions.  If I do buy, I'm gonna wait for a few production runs first, and let any kinks be worked out. 

[NikF]

I'm contemplating swapping-out/"downgrading" my bedroom system to something more affordable.  Schiit officially released its Vidar amp today.  $700 for 100 Wpc into 8 Ohms, and bridgeable to 400 Wpc into 8 Ohms.  The already available Freya pre, a switchable Passive/JFET Buffer/Tube pre, is also only $700, so $1400 for regular stereo and $2100 for a monoblock setup.  The amp uses a beefed up version of the amplifier topology found in their superb Jotunheim headphone amp.  Decisions, decisions.  If I do buy, I'm gonna wait for a few production runs first, and let any kinks be worked out.

Indeed. That's the way to go about it.

[Senta]

So...we bit on a receiver for Amazon Prime day, got this for a steal:

Onkyo TX-RZ610



It's sad this thing is currently hooked up to just an LG soundbar though!

Wondering what speakers would go well with this, in about a 14 x 20 rectangular room (carpeted), mid-size apartment - with both upper and lower neighbors though, who likely don't love classical music as much :/

[Todd]

Not so much anything I plan on getting, but one of the things I like about audiophile gear is how stoopid some of it is.  The $1200 Shun Mook record clamp was probably my favorite stupid expensive product to this point, with some other Shun Mook products being nearly as silly.  Maple Shade also offers some dubious products.  I also got a kick out of the supertweeter craze.  (No one really offered a credible explanation of how they would work with media that couldn't go above 22.05 kHz.)  But I think Audiophile.Rocks (http://audiophile.rocks/index.html) is now maybe my favorite audiophile snake oil purveyor.  They offer painted wood and "crystal" tweaks, all of which use their proprietary H2U2 piezoelectric quartz crystals to perform magic.  Years ago, my young daughter painted a river rock for me, which I put on top of my preamp.  I swear it did magic things, too.  Maybe I can go into business peddling such rocks.

Oh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.

[Rinaldo]

Oh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.

Wow, and here I thought those AudioQuest HDMI cables on Amazon couldn't be beaten. The user reviews are still golden.

Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies is also priceless. And quite meta towards the end, when the 'reviewer' speaks about gullible audiophiles buying worthless gadgets.

[Todd]

Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies is also priceless.

Coconut Audio, the 'manufacturer' of the crystal tweak reviewed, is now Audiophile.Rocks.  From the latter's web-site (bold added):

"Year 2010-2016 our company name changed to Coconut Audio because we used real coconut shells in our early tweaks and cables. We were excited to share our technology and gave away many free cables and tweaks. Our main business was auctions starting at $1 which resulted in personal bankruptcy."

Strange, no mention of fraud lawsuits.

[Fëanor]

Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies is also priceless. And quite meta towards the end, when the 'reviewer' speaks about gullible audiophiles buying worthless gadgets.

A famous quote:  "There's a sucker born every minute" ~ P.T. Barnum

[Pat B]

Not so much anything I plan on getting, but one of the things I like about audiophile gear is how stoopid some of it is.  The $1200 Shun Mook record clamp was probably my favorite stupid expensive product to this point, with some other Shun Mook products being nearly as silly.  Maple Shade also offers some dubious products.  I also got a kick out of the supertweeter craze.  (No one really offered a credible explanation of how they would work with media that couldn't go above 22.05 kHz.)  But I think Audiophile.Rocks (http://audiophile.rocks/index.html) is now maybe my favorite audiophile snake oil purveyor.  They offer painted wood and "crystal" tweaks, all of which use their proprietary H2U2 piezoelectric quartz crystals to perform magic.  Years ago, my young daughter painted a river rock for me, which I put on top of my preamp.  I swear it did magic things, too.  Maybe I can go into business peddling such rocks.

Oh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.

How much for a River Rock Painted By Your Daughter? If you stack two of them on top of each other, is it twice as magical?

[Todd]

I definitely do not need another headphone amp, but the new Schiit Magni 3 was released today.  It's a current feedback design with 2 watts into 32 Ohms, and 230 mW into 600 Ohms.  It's more powerful than my Jotunheim.  It's still only $99, to boot.  It probably couldn't hurt to get one.

[71 dB]

It's a current feedback design with 2 watts into 32 Ohms, and 230 mW into 600 Ohms. 

How much power do you need? My cans output 100 dB for about 1 mW.  That's pretty much all power I need for spikes in the music, because I don't want to become deaf.

[Todd]

How much power do you need? My cans output 100 dB for about 1 mW.  That's pretty much all power I need for spikes in the music, because I don't want to become deaf.

With most of my current array of headphones, not much, though my 600 Ohm T1s do require turning up the wick a bit.  I see no harm in having gobs of excess power.  Plus, I'm more interested in hearing if Jason Stoddard managed to get sound approaching that of the Jotunheim for under a hundred bucks.

[Todd]

I received my Magni 3 three weeks ago, and I've put it through its paces.  Most comparative listening was done with the more expensive Schiit Jotunheim.  The Jotunheim is the better amp, sounding slightly cleaner and more refined up top, and a bit cleaner in the bass.  The Magni sounds a bit warmer/darker in comparison.  That written, this amp reveals fine details well, and when I listened to some test discs selected for non-musical info - Osborne's LvB 106 and Chauzu's Samazeuilh - the piano damper noise, and pedal stomps in the latter, came through loud and clear.  Dynamics, timbre, headstage, etc, are all just fine.  Since the Magni 3 uses the same single ended topology as the Jotunheim, I wonder how much of the performance differential is down to power supply differences - the Magni uses a wall wart while the Jotunheim has a more robust internal supply.

I also compared to the Magni to my old Creek OBH-11 SE, with it's big old floor wart power supply, and which was about $300-350 when new.  The Magni is obviously superior in every way.   Much more open sounding, with much cleaner highs and tighter bass, I've rarely heard such significant differences between same type units (ie, solid state vs solid state) before.  At a hundred bucks, bang for the buck is off the charts.

[Daverz]

Finally got around to getting a Raspberry Pi to experiment with as a Squeezebox Touch replacement.  I had been using the Touch as a transport for my Auralic Vega USB DAC.  (All my music files are on an Ubuntu server in my loft).

I burned the PiCorePlayer OS image to a microSD card and inserted it into the Pi, plugged in the ethernet to the LAN, plugged in the DAC's USB cable, applied power, and a few seconds later my Logitech Media server recognized the new player and reported its IP address.  You then navigate your web browser to that IP address to access the piCorePlayer configuration page.  There was not much configuration to do, I just had to turn off the onboard sound to get it to connect to the USB DAC.  I control music playback with the iPeng app on my iPhone.

Apart from having to run out to Best Buy to get an overpriced microSD card reader at the last minute, all very painless.  Altogether, the Pi board, a plastic case, power supply, and microSD card were about $65.  The original Touch was $400.

Right away the Pi eliminated a problem I had with playback stutter when switching from standard rez to hi-rez files and back.  It can also handle obscene sample rates over the Touch's 192 kHz limit and can play DSF (DSD) files natively (I could never get these to play with the Touch).

The Pi (this is a 3B) has built-in Wi-Fi and an analog mini-jack, both of which I turned off.  There's an option I haven't tried to run the LMS server on the Pi itself to create an all-in-one media server/transport (this might be a tight fit in the 1G RAM of the Pi).  There are snap-on Pi daughter boards if you need SPDIF or I2S output or want to use more sophisticated DAC chips than the built-in one.  You can also add a touch display, but I never used the one on the Touch.

http://www.easysqueezebox.com/index.php/projects/raspberry-squeezie-pi-squeezelite/

[drogulus]

    I prefer to play all file types from one device, both audio and video and rather than fuss with home brew I'm thinking of getting an Oppo UDP 203 UHD player which will play all the audio and video formats in my collection. The move doesn't come from a recurrence of audiophilia but from technological necessity. I'm a USB media player guy. If you've gone to the trouble of creating 10+ TBs of files so you never have to play a disc you need a bullet proof machine. It doesn't even have streaming apps.

[marvinbrown]

  Dear GMG members, I hope all of you are doing well  .  Please I need some help.  I have a Panasonic Bluray player DMP-BD60 that I use to watch my operas.  My amp is a Rega Elex-R.  The way I am presently set up is that I have run an HDMI cable from the bluray player to my Panasonic TV.  The picture quality is outstanding.  The issue I have now is that the Rega Elex-R amp does not have a built in DAC and therefore does not have an optical in for the sound.  So I have connected the bluray player through its phono out to the phono in of the amp.  If I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?

  I would appreciate any feedback you might have.  I know very little about external dacs unfortunately.

  marvin

[Todd]

If I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?

The BD player is performing the conversion and outputting an analog signal.  An external DAC could provide better sound, but if you like the sound now, it may not be worth it.  If you think the sound is subpar, then a new DAC might make sense. 

[Parsifal]

  Dear GMG members, I hope all of you are doing well  .  Please I need some help.  I have a Panasonic Bluray player DMP-BD60 that I use to watch my operas.  My amp is a Rega Elex-R.  The way I am presently set up is that I have run an HDMI cable from the bluray player to my Panasonic TV.  The picture quality is outstanding.  The issue I have now is that the Rega Elex-R amp does not have a built in DAC and therefore does not have an optical in for the sound.  So I have connected the bluray player through its phono out to the phono in of the amp.  If I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?

  I would appreciate any feedback you might have.  I know very little about external dacs unfortunately.

  marvin

Depends on how picky you are, but the answer is probably yes, since the blu ray player is an inexpensive consumer grade player with a converter chip that probably costs $5 at best and your amp is a pricey audiophile unit.  However, you would have to give more information before a recommendation could be made. Do you listen on headphones or speakers, are you interested in surround sound, or do you intend to list to the 2 channel audio program only, etc.

[marvinbrown]

Depends on how picky you are, but the answer is probably yes, since the blu ray player is an inexpensive consumer grade player with a converter chip that probably costs $5 at best and your amp is a pricey audiophile unit.  However, you would have to give more information before a recommendation could be made. Do you listen on headphones or speakers, are you interested in surround sound, or do you intend to list to the 2 channel audio program only, etc.

  Hello Scxarpia,

  2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.  My CD player is a Marantz 6004 CD player by the way.  I am very impressed with the Marantz, never had the need to change it.  Its the audio off of the Bluray player that I am questioning. 

  marvin

 

[Todd]

2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.

A DAC should improve sound.  Cambridge Audio, Musical Fidelity, NAD, Audioengine, Schiit, and others all make low price DACs.  Rega makes a very good one, but it costs more.  It might make sense to see if a local dealer would let you audition one, or to buy one with a return period, so you can test before committing.

[Parsifal]

  Hello Scxarpia,

  2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.  My CD player is a Marantz 6004 CD player by the way.  I am very impressed with the Marantz, never had the need to change it.  Its the audio off of the Bluray player that I am questioning. 

  marvin

Here is my suggestion. Pick a CD with good sound quality and compare how it sounds when you listen using your CD player and your Blu Ray player. If you notice that it sounds worse on the Blu ray player you should think about a DAC. If you don't notice a significant difference, there is probably no need.

[marvinbrown]

Here is my suggestion. Pick a CD with good sound quality and compare how it sounds when you listen using your CD player and your Blu Ray player. If you notice that it sounds worse on the Blu ray player you should think about a DAC. If you don't notice a significant difference, there is probably no need.

  thank you sir! 

[marvinbrown]

  I played the Dana Ciocarlie Schumann CDs.  CD 2 in the Marantz and CD3 in the Bluray player.  I kept toggling between the two on the amp.  I am shocked! I could barely tell the difference!

How could this be?

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

A DAC should improve sound.  Cambridge Audio, Musical Fidelity, NAD, Audioengine, Schiit, and others all make low price DACs.  Rega makes a very good one, but it costs more.  It might make sense to see if a local dealer would let you audition one, or to buy one with a return period, so you can test before committing.

  Thank you Todd for your feedback.  I followed Scarpia's suggestion as I posted and I could barely tell the difference between the two! I am still shocked!

[Parsifal]

  I played the Dana Ciocarlie Schumann CDs.  CD 2 in the Marantz and CD3 in the Bluray player.  I kept toggling between the two on the amp.  I am shocked! I could barely tell the difference!

How could this be?

  marvin

The answer is that an inexpensive DAC can be pretty good. My experience is that a truly fine piece of audio equipment may distinguish itself by not creating fatigue after extended listening, rather than having an obviously more pleasing sound. You may get more insight by listening to an extended piece on one, then on the other, rather than very brief A/B comparison.  Also, you may want to compare orchestral/vocal music since that is what you will presumably be using the blu ray player for.

Finally, if you don't like tinkering with audio equipment, you might find it more convenient to simply upgrade to a better Blu Ray player rather than investing in a DAC. The Oppo brand is known for making players with good quality audio circuitry.

[Todd]

  Thank you Todd for your feedback.  I followed Scarpia's suggestion as I posted and I could barely tell the difference between the two! I am still shocked!

Matsushita appears to have designed a high quality chip for mass market products.  (I believe your player uses the UniPhier chipset.)  Giant consumer electronics firms can still crank out good hardware. 

I recently had to replace a TV.  I ended up with a Samsung that cost less than a third of what I paid for a smaller TV a decade ago.  When I set it up, I did some A/Bs between running my BD player through the TV to the DAC (via HDMI, then Toslink) and straight to the DAC (via Toslink).  On my old TV, the sound degraded when I did that; on my new TV, I could not hear a difference.  My new TV now serves as a de facto digital hub to feed my DAC.  Now one remote controls everything, whereas before I had to futz with different devices.  (My DAC has no remote, so if I wanted to switch digital sources, I was faced with the primitive option of having to get up and walk over to the device and press a button!)  Consumer electronics are constantly getting better at the lower end of the price spectrum.

[drogulus]

    I just got a new 4k HDR TV and a budget receiver (both Sony). My sources are a Roku and hard drives with music and video on them. Since everything is working as planned I'll put off getting the Oppo. No doubt the commodity DAC chips in the Sony AVR are no better than they need to be for a $200 unit. My older Marantz AVR almost certainly had better ones and the Oppo better still. My choice is convenient and since I don't play loud in my small living room the amp isn't stressed.

     AVRs for music reproducers work quite well as long as you have enough power available for all the speakers. My recommendation for the budget conscious would be to avoid the cheapest ones and go 1 or 2 levels up from that. If you need volume AVRs and power amps generally get better as they get heavier. My Sony weighs 17 lbs, an uh oh for a large room but all I need. If you want volume and are connecting a bunch of speakers the 20 lb model will be good. Note that rated power is very close between the models I'm comparing, that won't tell you anything.

[Spineur]

My Nakamichi amplifier finally died after a 6 months agony, so I had to find a replacement.  It turns out I also needed a network streamer to play my digital music stored on my QNAP NAS.  I opted for this relatively cheap pioneer NC 50 DAB



Very pleasantly surprised to see how extremely easy to set up.  Found the NAS immediately and the navigation through directories of composers, albums with the remote is easy.  I havent tested the digital radios, spotify/tidal/qobuz capacities, but this is something I was looking for.  It has a CD player as well.  The DAC chip is a Sabre 32 bits which is used in many high end hifi players.  It supports also fire connect for multirooms audio broadcasting.

Listening to Haendel Ariodante/Minkowski right now.  The sound is a bit "digital" for my taste.  Maybe there are setting to improve this.

It is listed for 850 euros on Amazon.fr but got it from Hifi Fabrik (a German outfit) for 630 euros.  Not bad.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

This is a long thread, and I'm not sure whether I asked this before. Can anyone recommend adjustable (height) speaker stands appropriate for these powered speakers (AudioEngine A5+)? https://audioengineusa.com/shop/poweredspeakers/a5-plus-powered-speakers/

I may periodically take them from room to room, and the height of my ears off the ground will be different in different chairs. I have Vandersteens in my main system, and these have their own dedicated stands.

Aside from that I've never bought speaker stands before. Do most smaller speakers have a common mount like camera bodies of various manufacturers that have the same threaded hole to fit any tripod head? How can I be sure a given stand will work for these speakers? Any thoughts/advice on what I should buy?

[drogulus]

    I decided to get the Oppo 4k unit as my all purpose media source. All in my case means all file kinds from a bunch of HDDs. It also has an HDMI in so you can run a streamer or PC into it if you're out of inputs on the AVR or just because it's convenient. As I expected the thing plays everything. You can even professionally calibrate the video and use basic setting on the TV for cable. For music you hit the pure button and that turns off the front panel display and the video circuits.

[marvinbrown]

    Yesterday I had the pleasure of listening to the following speakers (Sonus Faber Venere 2.5), powered by a Musical Fidelity amp.

 

  I was stunned! They were superb with classical music and sounded SMOOTH as SILK! I did not know that speakers could sound like this. One day I would love to get these. Something to budget for within the next 5 years perhaps....

 

[The new erato]

And this is the cheap end of their range. Advice: Don't listen to the > USD 10.000 stuff. There's no going back.

[marvinbrown]

And this is the cheap end of their range. Advice: Don't listen to the > USD 10.000 stuff. There's no going back.

  I can well imagine! By the way, I wouldn't consider their retail value, new of £2400 cheap.  Plus you need an amp in the £1500-£2000 range to get the most out of them and a CD player in the £1000-£1500 range and before you know it you are spending £5400 pounds on a system. That's really pricey in my opinion.

 

[The new erato]

Yes indeed, but it's still the cheap end of their range. I've listened to their 8 grand 2 way systems and lived with their 4 grand floorstanders for some months a few years ago........

[Baron Scarpia]

My Bose Quietcomfort noise-canceling headphones got stolen, and I want to replace them. Mainly I would use them with my phone (either wired or bluetooth) or maybe with a tablet or laptop for casual listening here and there. I have more serious headphones for listening to the real stuff at home.

Any suggestions as to which would provide better fidelity, the latest Bose QuietComfort Series III, or the Sony competitor WH1000XM2, or maybe something else noise-canceling at the same price point (about $300).

[Baron Scarpia]

No comment, eh.

Changed my mind. Going for the Bose QuietComfort 25 noise canceling headphones, basically because are simple wired headphones, no wireless connectivity.

Basically, the wireless connectivity of the QuietComfort 35 or the Sony seems like it would be nice, but bluetooth is always irritating to use: you have to wait for it to connect, deal with the inevitable instance when it fails to find the device, deal with the inevitable instances when it finds the device when you don't want to use the device, deal with the situation where there are multiple devices in range and you have to figure out why it keeps connecting to the wrong one, etc. Plus these fancy headphones are controlled by an app, and they have a button that automatically invokes Google Assistant. Does there have to be an app for everything? Do I have to talk to my headphones? When I finish listening to the Hamerklavier Sonata, will it be interrupting to suggest I listen to Andre Rieu?

I am anticipating the day when you can't use a toe nail clipper without configuring the app and logging into the clipper. Then they will sell data about you to the highest bidder, and your health insurance rates will go up because of health concerns based on analysis of your toe nail clippings.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!

[Baron Scarpia]

My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!

The most critical component is the cartridge, and after that the tonearm, whose job is maintain constant tracking force on the stylus, and introduce negligible friction resistance as the stylus follows the groove from the edge to center. The quality of the bearings is crucial. The task of spinning a disc at constant speed is very simple compared to that. I'd think about whether the tone arm of the new turntable is better.

[Baron Scarpia]

Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved.

I never threw them away - they were stored in my parents' basement, and that gave me the incentive to buy a turntable. It started as a kind of nostalgia trip, wanting to hear all those records again that I had last listened to years ago. (It's not because I was deeply convinced by the arguments of the Anstendig Institute or anything like that.)

[Baron Scarpia]

I never threw them away - they were stored in my parents' basement, and that gave me the incentive to buy a turntable. It started as a kind of nostalgia trip, wanting to hear all those records again that I had last listened to years ago. (It's not because I was deeply convinced by the arguments of the Anstendig Institute or anything like that.)

Truth be told, I saved about a dozen LPs. Now I can think of another dozen I should have saved. But there were probably 200 of them, at least, and the others I don't miss.

Didn't realize anyone around here still remembers Anstendig and his Institute. The web site still exists, at least. I still remember there was some obscure phono cartridge which, before he got it, no one had ever heard music properly before.

[BasilValentine]

Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved.

Hah! Never gave mine up. Or my records. I cobbled together a system with a Technics turntable, receiver and tape deck, still going strong after thirty five years of use, two different CD players, and a pair of Cerwin-Vega speakers. About the latter: I went to a big stereo store in Boston armed with Shostakovich's Tenth and King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic and tried numerous speakers. I picked the ones that sounded best. When on computer I use Sony headphones.

[Fëanor]

My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!

I got onto the hi-fi treadmill back in the day when LPs were really the only option, (tape cassette was around but new).  What I always hated about LPs was the concern to keep them dust- and scratch-free and avoid wear & tear in generally.  I understand that some people actually enjoy handling the physical albums, admiring the covers, reading the back and liner notes, destaticing and dusting them.  But I hated the handling rituals.

I bought my first hi-fi CD player an couple of years after the introduction of that media, after prices and settled down a bit.  By the mid '90s I ceased buying LPs altogether.

There are still lots of people who say the LPs sound better than CD.  I say it basically isn't so.  In the early days neither the average CD nor most CD players sounded very good so it was easy to make the claim, but 21st century CDs and CD playing technologies, (no longer restricted to actual, self-contained players), have come a long, long way.

It's always been true that 90% of sound problems aren't the playback media or equipment but rather the recording and engineering processes.  But if these processes are well doe, a CD or hi-rez computer file will beat an LP everytime.  Further I will assert, at the risk of the ire of many, that LPs and the phonograph playback stream are preferred by their admirers because they filter the sound in a pleasing way

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

There are still lots of people who say the LPs sound better than CD.  I say it basically isn't so.  In the early days neither the average CD nor most CD players sounded very good so it was easy to make the claim, but 21st century CDs and CD playing technologies, (no longer restricted to actual, self-contained players), have come a long, long way.

It's always been true that 90% of sound problems aren't the playback media or equipment but rather the recording and engineering processes.  But if these processes are well doe, a CD or hi-rez computer file will beat an LP everytime.  Further I will assert, at the risk of the ire of many, that LPs and the phonograph playback stream are preferred by their admirers because they filter the sound in a pleasing way

Now that I've been back into vinyl for a few years, my conclusion is that neither medium intrinsically sounds better than the other. When I've compared CDs to their LP equivalents, sometimes the CD is better, sometimes the LP is, sometimes you can barely tell the difference. Even that is too general a statement, because different issues of the same recording, irrespective of medium, often sound different. Vinyl fans can get obsessive about sonic differences between different issues of a particular LP.

The only generalization I feel confident in making is that LPs are more ambient and CDs more precise. But that's a gross generalization based on years of listening experience.

[The new erato]

Studio or mastering work is far more important than medium, and that goes for SACDs as well.

Just bought me one of these. Will probably be my last CD/SACD device, but I don't stream and cannot be bothered to rip:



Still awaiting delivery BTW.

[Baron Scarpia]

Pioneer? They're still in business? What is the country of manufacture?

[71 dB]

Pioneer? They're still in business?

Why wouldn't they be still in business?

[Baron Scarpia]

Why wouldn't they be still in business?

I don't recall having seen reference to them for a while.

[drogulus]

Studio or mastering work is far more important than medium, and that goes for SACDs as well.

Just bought me one of these. Will probably be my last CD/SACD device, but I don't stream and cannot be bothered to rip:



Still awaiting delivery BTW.

     I enjoy ripping. What I really enjoy, though, is having all my music on a single HD (backed up on another), and all the videos, organized with fanatical precision, on a group of portable drives, connected through a hub to my Oppo. I'm never more than a few button presses away from my entire media collection. The outlay in initial effort to get the system up and running is definitely worth it. You can do it fast or slow and take years or weeks to complete it. HD space is cheap, you don't even have to add compression. My entire uncompressed music collection is 213GB, a trivial size.

[Daverz]

Says on Wikipedia

"In September 2014, Pioneer agreed to sell Pioneer Home Electronics (Home A/V) to Onkyo"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Corporation

[Spineur]

Says on Wikipedia

"In September 2014, Pioneer agreed to sell Pioneer Home Electronics (Home A/V) to Onkyo"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Corporation

True, but the two brands still exist separately.  They do marketing together I believe.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Analog: Get an Oracle Delphi Mk. III or later with SME V arm or GTFO.

As for me, I just turned on my Audioengine 5+ powered monitors for a second system. Very impressive for this size and price point. I will probably buy the woofer later on, but for now, they are breaking in and are quite satisfying for most music except pipe organ. Impressive volume, soundstage and dynamics! The bamboo finish is only another 60$ and is absolutely gorgeous! They remind me of Sonus Fabers in terms of build quality and finish.

[lisa needs braces]

My computer speakers -- standing a bit behind my computer desk -- are Audioengine A5+ powered speakers.

They have served me well over the years, and I plan to hold on them for quite a few more. They're powered so no amplifier necessary.

My headphones are the Senheiser HD 650s -- one of my grandest splurges, and I plan to keep them until they fall apart.

But in general audophilia is an ambition of mine as much as some people loathe it as wanton consumerism or quackery .

[Kontrapunctus]

I recently upgraded my VPI Scout 1.1 to a VPI Prime Signature with an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge. Wow, the clarity and sense of realism are astounding.

[Fëanor]

I'm replacing my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's that I've enjoy for 13 years with something new.  Not that I don't like the Maggies but their size has always been a bit overwhelming in our smallish living room that is also my listening room.

The Maggies replacements are a pair of DIY, (do it yourself), two-way small towers based closely on Zaph Audio's ZRT, (Revelator Tower), design that use high-grade Scan-Speak drivers.  See http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html

So far I don't seem to be losing much with the ZRT's versus the Magneplanars.  The latter being bipolar planars do offer a somewhat more expansive sound stage but the former are even more transparent, detailed, and airy with equal or better bass.

Some pics ...

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Before they disappear entirely (since Oppo & Cambridge have stopped making high-end blue-ray players, esp. set up for audio and stereo; apparently because their supplier no longer provides some relevant parts but presumably also because they don't see a future in the market), I got myself a Cambridge CXU. And, in an upgrade from my humble Firestone Audio Cute DAC, I added a T+A DAC8 DSD to the lineup. Although it's not asked to do a whole lot, yet, so the "upgrade" has been actually rather marginal, I must say.

[Daverz]

Before they disappear entirely (since Oppo & Cambridge have stopped making high-end blue-ray players, esp. set up for audio and stereo; apparently because their supplier no longer provides some relevant parts but presumably also because they don't see a future in the market), I got myself a Cambridge CXU. And, in an upgrade from my humble Firestone Audio Cute DAC, I added a T+A DAC8 DSD to the lineup. Although it's not asked to do a whole lot, yet, so the "upgrade" has been actually rather marginal, I must say.

I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.

The last DAC I bought was the little Topping D10 for use in my headphone system.  This has the same ES9018 DAC chip as the Auralic Vega in my main system.  The Topping is $90 on Amazon.  I did compare them briefly in my main system, but the test was inconclusive.  I'm not sure I can bring myself to pay kilobucks for a DAC again.

And I just ordered a pair of these, which have gotten a lot of hype lately:



Buchardt S400 speakers.  Free shipping and free return within 30 days.

[Fëanor]

I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.

The last DAC I bought was the little Topping D10 for use in my headphone system.  This has the same ES9018 DAC chip as the Auralic Vega in my main system.  The Topping is $90 on Amazon.  I did compare them briefly in my main system, but the test was inconclusive.  I'm not sure I can bring myself to pay kilobucks for a DAC again.

And I just ordered a pair of these, which have gotten a lot of hype lately:



Buchardt S400 speakers.  Free shipping and free return within 30 days.

Those Buchardt S400 look very interesting;  I like the idea of the waveguide on the tweeter.

I think Topping generally makes great products.  I recently replace my Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC with a Topping DX7s DAC which is 1/3 the price but just as good, and has a headphone amp to boot.

[Daverz]

Yeah, I wish I'd known about the Topping headphone amp/DAC gear before buying the Schiit.  It would have simplified things.  The D10 is USB bus powered, so at least it doesn't need an extra wall wart.

I'm starting to get cold feet on the Buchardts.  It was partly an itch to scratch after 10 years with my Vandersteens.  But I just got digital room correction tuned in just so, and the system sounds fantastic.

[Fëanor]

Yeah, I wish I'd known about the Topping headphone amp/DAC gear before buying the Schiit.  It would have simplified things.  The D10 is USB bus powered, so at least it doesn't need an extra wall wart.

I'm starting to get cold feet on the Buchardts.  It was partly an itch to scratch after 10 years with my Vandersteens.  But I just got digital room correction tuned in just so, and the system sounds fantastic.

What digital room correction are you using?

I'm toying with the idea of getting a miniDSP device such as the nanoDIGI 2x8 B ...
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b

[Daverz]

What digital room correction are you using?

I'm toying with the idea of getting a miniDSP device such as the nanoDIGI 2x8 B ...
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b

My toolchain is:

• REW and a Umik-1 mic to measure the impulse response of my system + room.
• DRC-FIR to generate the room correction filters.
• brutefir and the BrutefirDRC plugin as the convolution engine on my Squeezebox server (running on Ubuntu).

I described my procedure in a post at ASR, which probably needs some updating.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/page-9#post-163964

There are other free options to generate the filters, like rePhase and PORC, and commercial ones like Acourate or Audiolense.

Also, many other music players and servers provide convolution engines, like Volumnio, Roon, Foobar, etc.

[Irons]

I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.

Wish I didn't read that! My main source is analogue, and to compliment that a couple of years ago I purchased a second-hand Denon CD player for £20. It has never missed a beat. The upgrading bug has taken hold and today taking delivery of, again second-hand, a Quad player which unlike the Denon is a serious investment. The law of sod...........

[Harry]

Wish I didn't read that! My main source is analogue, and to compliment that a couple of years ago I purchased a second-hand Denon CD player for £20. It has never missed a beat. The upgrading bug has taken hold and today taking delivery of, again second-hand, a Quad player which unlike the Denon is a serious investment. The law of sod...........

Which type of Quad player did you purchase?

[Irons]

Which type of Quad player did you purchase?

99 CD P2.



Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

99 CD P2.



Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.

Nice toy! (Although I admit that I've never quite liked the look of QUAD equipment. So chunky...
Do you hear a distinct difference to your other player?

[aligreto]

99 CD P2.



Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.

Congratulations and I hope that it gives you many years of pleasurable listening.

[Daverz]

This is the Quad gear I'd love to have



The ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers.  I've heard a similar model at my local audio salon crammed into one of their smaller rooms, and they still sounded great.

[Fëanor]

My toolchain is:

• REW and a Umik-1 mic to measure the impulse response of my system + room.
• DRC-FIR to generate the room correction filters.
• brutefir and the BrutefirDRC plugin as the convolution engine on my Squeezebox server (running on Ubuntu).

I described my procedure in a post at ASR, which probably needs some updating.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/page-9#post-163964

There are other free options to generate the filters, like rePhase and PORC, and commercial ones like Acourate or Audiolense.

Also, many other music players and servers provide convolution engines, like Volumnio, Roon, Foobar, etc.

That's great information.  Thanks very much, I'll be checking it out thoroughly.

Maybe you could set me straight on one point:  I had the impression the REV could generate a FIR file as well as impulse response data.  Is this not so?

[aligreto]

This is the Quad gear I'd love to have



The ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers.  I've heard a similar model at my local audio salon crammed into one of their smaller rooms, and they still sounded great.

I hope that you ultimately achieve your goal Dave. I own a pair of ESL 63s and they sound wonderful especially when driven by valves. I have not heard the ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers but the provenance is certainly recommendable.

[Daverz]

That's great information.  Thanks very much, I'll be checking it out thoroughly.

Maybe you could set me straight on one point:  I had the impression the REV could generate a FIR file as well as impulse response data.  Is this not so?

I'll have to look into that.  The procedure I'm aware of involves generating a set of correction filter definitions in REW, exporting that as XML, and then loading it into rePhase to generate the FIR filter.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30035-using-rew-and-rephase-to-generate-amplitude-and-time-domain-corrections/?tab=comments#comment-604260

[Irons]

Nice toy! (Although I admit that I've never quite liked the look of QUAD equipment. So chunky...
Do you hear a distinct difference to your other player?

Bass. Although Quad are best known for mid-range it is deeper bass that is most noticeable.

I am most impressed with the build quality of this deck. It did cross my mind to investigate the sister 99 Pre-amp which has a phono input for both MC and MM. I presently have an all valve/tube based system and my present Pre sounds great but is, I must admit, an ugly piece of kit (two boxes). The sleeker lines of the Quad would go down very well with the better half. Would a transistor Pre work with a valve Power I wonder?

[Irons]

Congratulations and I hope that it gives you many years of pleasurable listening.

Cheers, Aligreto.

[aligreto]

Bass. Although Quad are best known for mid-range it is deeper bass that is most noticeable.

I am most impressed with the build quality of this deck. It did cross my mind to investigate the sister 99 Pre-amp which has a phono input for both MC and MM. I presently have an all valve/tube based system and my present Pre sounds great but is, I must admit, an ugly piece of kit (two boxes). The sleeker lines of the Quad would go down very well with the better half. Would a transistor Pre work with a valve Power I wonder?

Some say that this combination actually gives a better balance.

[Irons]

I hope that you ultimately achieve your goal Dave. I own a pair of ESL 63s and they sound wonderful especially when driven by valves. I have not heard the ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers but the provenance is certainly recommendable.

Len Gregory AKA "The Cartridge Man" used (still does far as I know) a pair of Quad ESL 63s hooked up to a pair of ancient refurbished BBC house valve amplifiers. An unusual set-up with each amp on the floor next to the ESL 63 it is driving connected by the shortest possible speaker leads and long interconnect lead to Pre (I cannot recall which). The sound was magnificent.

[Harry]

Len Gregory AKA "The Cartridge Man" used (still does far as I know) a pair of Quad ESL 63s hooked up to a pair of ancient refurbished BBC house valve amplifiers. An unusual set-up with each amp on the floor next to the ESL 63 it is driving connected by the shortest possible speaker leads and long interconnect lead to Pre (I cannot recall which). The sound was magnificent.

I still have a pair of ESL 63s, refurbished by Quad, and Quad valve amplifiers, which have to be refurbished. I can attest to the quality of sound, which is indeed fantastic.

[Mandryka]

People say that esl63s are too inefficient to drive with old valve amps, which tend to have low output. The Quad II was built for the ESL 57. The amp that Quad built with the 63 in mind is a transistor amp, the 306. I'm sure that there are excellent, powerful and very expensive modern valve amps which can do the job. And the truth is you can never tell how an amp will be with a speaker till you try it, a low output we'll designed power amp may well have enough grip to drive 63s, I'd love to hear 63s with some of the older more powerful Radford amps, for example.

I have a pair of 63s and I have a 306, but in fact I've never tried them together - I may just do that tonight!

Re the 2812, I haven't heard them, but some people certainly report that the quality is better from older quads, though you don't get as much of a bass response. On the other hand I have a friend with 2912s which he rates very highly.

It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

It's important to try before you buy. Properly set up the 63s do something very distinctive which the 2812s may do or may not, your dealer or Quad themselves should be able to tell you: they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

I said properly set up, but this is not easy. With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.

[staxomega]

I have Wayne Picquet rebuilt 57s in a second system, and I owned Estat Solutions rebuilt 63 in the past.

I personally prefer the sound of the 57 even if they are more limited in what they can do compared to the 63. But when I had 63 I felt they were limited as well. So far a custom built set of constant directivity waveguide/horn speakers are the only ones that I have heard that match the midrange of the 57. Even the full range Sound Labs that I've heard several times sound too clinical or dry compared to the 57.

For piano and chamber music the 57 and 63 are among the best speakers I have ever heard. My main system has Harbeths since they are in my other place's living room and my wife prefers more normal looking speakers, but the midrange on them absolutely pales compared to the 57.

[Mandryka]

I have Wayne Picquet rebuilt 57s in a second system, and I owned Estat Solutions rebuilt 63 in the past.

I personally prefer the sound of the 57 even if they are more limited in what they can do compared to the 63. But when I had 63 I felt they were limited as well. So far a custom built set of constant directivity waveguide/horn speakers are the only ones that I have heard that match the midrange of the 57. Even the full range Sound Labs that I've heard several times sound too clinical or dry compared to the 57.

For piano and chamber music the 57 and 63 are among the best speakers I have ever heard. My main system has Harbeths since they are in my other place's living room and my wife prefers more normal looking speakers, but the midrange on them absolutely pales compared to the 57.

Have you tried modern LS3/59s, ones like Falcon Acoustics?  Everyone says what you say about 57s, but I believe that good LS3/59s are very fine too in midrange.

[staxomega]

Have you tried modern LS3/59s, ones like Falcon Acoustics?  Everyone says what you say about 57s, but I believe that good LS3/59s are very fine too in midrange.

I haven't heard them. My Harbeths are big ones, the Super HL5 (one revision before the Plus), I wanted them to play louder than the Quads and have better bass extension which is why I was looking for larger than the well known BBC models.

I was considering their LS3/5a kits when I was looking for speakers for my office, I ended up going with JBL LSR306 MK2.

If anyone here doesn't mind active speakers (using digital crossovers) I would suggest hearing Dutch and Dutch 8c, I have heard from several people I trust that they are the best speakers they have heard for classical. There is a dealer in London that has them, I think he is happy to audition them for people even if they aren't in the market to buy.

[petrarch]

With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.

This is so true. From room dimensions to construction materials the room can make or break a system. Diffusion alleviates some of this.

they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

As long as the width of the soundstage isn't the width of a postbox ... Or are you referring to the focused image of an individual instrument?

It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

I had a pair of Martin Logan hybrids and I am not sure if it was the crossover, the fact that they were hybrids, or even the panel itself, but they gave the sound a certain plasticky character. The thought of having to supplement panels such as the CLS with subwoofers always put me off pure electrostatics and I have since moved on to full range ribbon planars.

[aligreto]

People say that esl63s are too inefficient to drive with old valve amps, which tend to have low output. The Quad II was built for the ESL 57. The amp that Quad built with the 63 in mind is a transistor amp, the 306. I'm sure that there are excellent, powerful and very expensive modern valve amps which can do the job. And the truth is you can never tell how an amp will be with a speaker till you try it, a low output we'll designed power amp may well have enough grip to drive 63s, I'd love to hear 63s with some of the older more powerful Radford amps, for example.

I have a pair of 63s and I have a 306, but in fact I've never tried them together - I may just do that tonight!

Re the 2812, I haven't heard them, but some people certainly report that the quality is better from older quads, though you don't get as much of a bass response. On the other hand I have a friend with 2912s which he rates very highly.

It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

It's important to try before you buy. Properly set up the 63s do something very distinctive which the 2812s may do or may not, your dealer or Quad themselves should be able to tell you: they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

I said properly set up, but this is not easy. With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.

I eventually ended up having to mark the floor with tape in order to preserve exact positioning after much micro tweeking!

[aligreto]

I have a friend who has a stacked 57's setup very similar to this....





Admittedly he has a large house and a very tolerant wife. I forget what they are driven by, certainly low wattage valves, but they sound wonderful, particularly with jazz and acoustic music.

[Irons]

I eventually ended up having to mark the floor with tape in order to preserve exact positioning after much micro tweeking!

Audiophilia is a terrible and costly ailment of which there is no known cure! 

[Harry]

I forgot to say that I have on my ceiling the Quad II valves. In original boxes. Will send them out for servicing, and use them again with my ESL'S

[Mandryka]

I forgot to say that I have on my ceiling the Quad II valves. In original boxes. Will send them out for servicing, and use them again with my ESL'S

I think you mean "in your attic ", though I do know someone who built speakers into the ceiling for better bass response.

[Harry]

I think you mean "in your attic ", though I do know someone who built speakers into the ceiling for better bass response.

I have the system stored neatly in the attic, yes, ceiling was the wrong word, but someone was installing a new ceiling in my house, so hence the wrong association 

[Artem]

Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.

[drogulus]

     I remember liking a pair of Celestion Ditton 10s back in the '70s. They were used by the BBC as monitors before the LS3/5a.

[Harry]

Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.

It is important what you think is  good sound, but out of my experience, I say all mini systems above the 500 euros (Denon) are good value for your money.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  )

[71 dB]

Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  )

Looks like a storage room rather than a listening room. How about the acoustic treatment? Investing a million dollars to your gear doesn't help if the room acoustics suck and I can almost hear all those frames resonating on the wall with the bass. 

[Mandryka]

Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  )

Please upload an uncompressed picture so that we can try to guess the components.

.

[Daverz]

Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.

I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Looks like a storage room rather than a listening room. How about the acoustic treatment? Investing a million dollars to your gear doesn't help if the room acoustics suck and I can almost hear all those frames resonating on the wall with the bass. 

The room is chock full of acoustic treatment. On the walls, on the ceilings... just everywhere... except most of it not seen on the picture. The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.

Please upload an uncompressed picture so that we can try to guess the components.

Unfortunately, the picture isn't all that great to begin with, because I had to brighten it after the fact so that one sees much of anything. [I messed up the exposure on subsequent pix which came out weird.] But here's the best resolution possible: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large

At the heart of the currently running system (there are several in the picture) is a self-built MusiCHI server (since refined and condensed into one box; here still the prototype in several casings).

I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.

The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

[The new erato]

The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.

This is obviously true, but even if I have a dedicated listening room I wouldn't want to live like that.

[Daverz]

The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

My comment was in replay to Artem's question about a Denon mini-system.

But that other guy should just replace all that junk with a Bose.  I hear they are the best.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

This is obviously true, but even if I have a dedicated listening room I wouldn't want to live like that.

In his defense, that's not actually his living-room; it's a dedicated listening- and tinkering-room that's outside his apartment (but in the same building). But for shock-value, I think it's worth suppressing that factoid. :-)

[staxomega]

Do you guys have any opinions on LS3/5a clones and how they compare to Quad ESLs?

I am looking for some speakers for one of my offices, something that can be placed 1 foot from the front wall and listened to slightly further than arms length away.

[Mandryka]

Do you guys have any opinions on LS3/5a clones and how they compare to Quad ESLs?

I am looking for some speakers for one of my offices, something that can be placed 1 foot from the front wall and listened to slightly further than arms length away.

I think that's too close for ESLs myself, I don't think you should treat them like a massive pair of headphones. I think LS3/5As are overpriced. If I were you I'd take a punt on JR 149s, which are good value and ideal for near field listening and cute. JR149s were the original LS3/5A, they have the same drivers etc. I think I read Jim Rogers compromised some of the design to meet some BBC requirements (maybe they wanted cuboids!)

If you go that route come back and talk with me about amps to go with them, as I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with mine. Amps matter a lot.

[Mandryka]

The room is chock full of acoustic treatment. On the walls, on the ceilings... just everywhere... except most of it not seen on the picture. The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.

Unfortunately, the picture isn't all that great to begin with, because I had to brighten it after the fact so that one sees much of anything. [I messed up the exposure on subsequent pix which came out weird.] But here's the best resolution possible: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large

At the heart of the currently running system (there are several in the picture) is a self-built MusiCHI server (since refined and condensed into one box; here still the prototype in several casings).

The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

Thanks for the pic.

You know, if I put all my stuff in one room close together it would look a lot like that picture.

[staxomega]

I think that's too close for ESLs myself, I don't think you should treat them like a massive pair of headphones. I think LS3/5As are overpriced. If I were you I'd take a punt on JR 149s, which are good value and ideal for near field listening and cute. JR149s were the original LS3/5A, they have the same drivers etc. I think I read Jim Rogers compromised some of the design to meet some BBC requirements (maybe they wanted cuboids!)

If you go that route come back and talk with me about amps to go with them, as I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with mine. Amps matter a lot.

The box speakers are for a different system, I have the ESL57s in another system. I was curious how they compare to the 57s to get a rough idea in my mind how they sound, particularly in the midband.

What about roughly 500 GBP for a kit of Falcon LS3/5a, does the value proposition sound a bit better? They sell the matched crossovers, genuine drivers and cabinets. Just requires putting them together which I could do. By one account on another they are the best sounding LS3/5a clones and the only ones making genuine drivers for them. Someone mentioned them having midrange as good as 57s which is what caused my ears to perk up. I am really new to British BBC style speakers so I will do some reading on those JR 149s.

[Mandryka]

The box speakers are for a different system, I have the ESL57s in another system. I was curious how they compare to the 57s to get a rough idea in my mind how they sound, particularly in the midband.

What about roughly 500 GBP for a kit of Falcon LS3/5a, does the value proposition sound a bit better? They sell the matched crossovers, genuine drivers and cabinets. Just requires putting them together which I could do. By one account on another they are the best sounding LS3/5a clones and the only ones making genuine drivers for them. Someone mentioned them having midrange as good as 57s which is what caused my ears to perk up. I am really new to British BBC style speakers so I will do some reading on those JR 149s.

Are the components in the Falcon Acoustics "LS3/5A STYLE"  kits really the same as the components in the Falcon Loudspeakers "BBC LS3/5a"?

[johnlewisgrant]

Listened to countless speakers and supporting systems for my 12X20 LR.  The best I heard (for a space of those dimensions, not treated) were the Revel Salon 2.

That is, UNTIL I heard these sound engineering speakers (the amp is in the speaker and the only speaker cables it accepts are balanced XLR).  These aren't pretty (like the Salon 2... at least for some people), but they sound much more realistic (yes, more realistic than the Salon 2).   With a decently recorded source they are often more enjoyable (sonically) than a live concert.  They are the FOCAL "SM9" nearfield/midfield monitors.   

I have heard loudspeakers as good as these, but nothing any better.   They easily fill my LR with orchestral music, making it sound completely as if you were listening live in a concert hall.  Extraordinary speakers.  All music, big or small, sounds completely real in force and accuracy.  Uncanny speakers.   Balanced XLR connections and internal amp ensure that the speaker is completely silent.   ZERO hum.   

So far the only source I use for them is TIDAL (Master, where possible) and a Marantz CD player with balanced XLR out.... so completely silent.

I couldn't be happier.

[Daverz]

Listened to countless speakers and supporting systems for my 12X20 LR.  The best I heard (for a space of those dimensions, not treated) were the Revel Salon 2.

That is, UNTIL I heard these sound engineering speakers (the amp is in the speaker and the only speaker cables it accepts are balanced XLR).  These aren't pretty (like the Salon 2... at least for some people), but they sound much more realistic (yes, more realistic than the Salon 2).   With a decently recorded source they are often more enjoyable (sonically) than a live concert.  They are the FOCAL "SM9" nearfield/midfield monitors.   

I have heard loudspeakers as good as these, but nothing any better.   They easily fill my LR with orchestral music, making it sound completely as if you were listening live in a concert hall.  Extraordinary speakers.  All music, big or small, sounds completely real in force and accuracy.  Uncanny speakers.   Balanced XLR connections and internal amp ensure that the speaker is completely silent.   ZERO hum.   

So far the only source I use for them is TIDAL (Master, where possible) and a Marantz CD player with balanced XLR out.... so completely silent.

I couldn't be happier.

You saved a lot of money over Salon 2s and the needed electronics!  I wonder how having all the drivers mounted on a wide baffle like that would perform.  Would love to see a polar plot or spinorama measurements.

[staxomega]

Are the components in the Falcon Acoustics "LS3/5A STYLE"  kits really the same as the components in the Falcon Loudspeakers "BBC LS3/5a"?

They are genuine, everything Falcon uses in their own LS3/5a- both drivers and matched crossovers. They do have a complete one stop click kit that uses Monacor drivers, but the one I am referring to requires you buying everything individually, then you can get the KEF/Falcon B110, their T27 tweeter, crossover and cabinets.

[Mandryka]

They are genuine, everything Falcon uses in their own LS3/5a- both drivers and matched crossovers. They do have a complete one stop click kit that uses Monacor drivers, but the one I am referring to requires you buying everything individually, then you can get the KEF/Falcon B110, their T27 tweeter, crossover and cabinets.

Then £500 sounds like a good price, if you can do the assembly yourself (the cabs may be hard to make, BBC speaker cabinets are thin and have to be glued in a special way, the cabinet vibrations are an important aspect of the sound. They need to be on stands in a way which allows the cabs to vibrate.)

I don't have LS3/5A, I have bigger BBC monitors, Spendor SP1, the closest I get to LS3/5a is with my JR149s, which  are really speakers which are only excellent for low volume near-field listening, they really can't fill a room with sound very well. I suspect the same is true for LS3/5As

That's bound to be a major difference between ESLs and LS3/5As -- the panels of the ESLs can move so much more air.

[Artem]

I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.

I'd like to set it up at home. I'm looking for a minimalistic kind of look. Don't want to have big or too many speakers. Right now I have 5+1 system, but I'm getting the feeling that all those speakers aren't that necessary for listening to something like Morton Feldman, for example.