Mozart a fraud?

[Catison]

Thanks for the quote. The part that seems best is -

Selective quoting is easy.  The rest of the quote tells us not to trust him on musical matters, i.e., he couldn't tell if the music was by Mozart or not, but only that such-and-such opera was performed and such-and-such singer sang.  This is precisely what the quoted text argues.

[robnewman]

Catison seems to be suffering from acute and short-term amensia -

Zinzendorf writes of the opera -

'the music of which is pilfered from various others'.

I guess we should look at our watches, find an excuse to be somewhere else, or just ignore it. Or, if we consider ourselves to be 'Mozarteans', all three !!

As for myself, let the record stand. It is entirely consistent with what has earlier been posted. The 'Haffner' is not by W.A. Mozart but is instead a twice arranged version of a symphony by a third composer, the proof of which is implied in all this convoluted affair, and confirmed beyond reasonable doubt by the shamefully ignored manuscript of the work (and others) today at the Estense Library in Modena, Italy and by the contemporary testimony of Count Zinzendorf.

[Holly]

I pay no bills for my site, it cost's me nothing other than heartache.  

As for Robert's departure for CMM, this was not down to the current subject matter in itself, for such things are still allowed to be discussed there, rather it was Rob's more generally immoderate behaviour...

And what brought about the "immoderate behaviour", I wonder?  Don't bother answering, as I know.  In broad terms, if one is new to first-hand experience with Newmanry (as opposed to hearsay) there appear to be two main classes of reaction: fairly instant dismissal, or grudgingly get sucked into the intrigue as the long-winded story unfold through pages of slowly disgorged "evidence", and promise of more to follow.  The end result is usually all the same, that it all sounds such a load of bolony.  Once this stage sets in and people generally lose interest and walk away or give their final verdicts that's when all the more desperate measures start to take over.  Such was the experience on CMM; and the same happened at T-C before that.  For the curious-minded, only direct personal experience is good enough to understand the process.  Although I don't find any of his arguments persuasive, I still find his enthusiasm and evidence-dodging skills a sight to behold. I reckon he is getting better.  Maybe that's why he is here, merely to hone his B.S. skills with a view to becoming a politician?

[robnewman]

And what brought about the "immoderate behaviour", I wonder?  Don't bother answering, as I know.  In broad terms, if one is new to first-hand experience with Newmanry (as opposed to hearsay) there appear to be two main classes of reaction: fairly instant dismissal, or grudgingly get sucked into the intrigue as the long-winded story unfold through pages of slowly disgorged "evidence", and promise of more to follow.  The end result is usually all the same, that it all sounds such a load of bolony.  Once this stage sets in and people generally lose interest and walk away or give their final verdicts that's when all the more desperate measures start to take over.  Such was the experience on CMM; and the same happened at T-C before that.  For the curious-minded, only direct personal experience is good enough to understand the process.  Although I don't find any of his arguments persuasive, I still find his enthusiasm and evidence-dodging skills a sight to behold. I reckon he is getting better.  Maybe that's why he is here, merely to hone his B.S. skills with a view to becoming a politician?

And we may suppose Holly's contributions here are an attempt to draw you away from discussing/appreciating the documentary evidence related to the 'Haffner' symphony. Which, on this occasion, seem to have failed.

[Catison]

Catison seems to be suffering from acute and short-term amensia -

Yay!  Ad hominem!

Zinzendorf writes of the opera -

'the music of which is pilfered from various others'.

I'll trust the experts:

"In any case Zinzendorf, as Link observes, attended
the opera primarily for social reasons. Nor was he a skilled musician (he was
more savvy when it came to spoken theater). Thus, his commentary, at least
with respect to the music, is of limited value, and I do not quite share Link's
enthusiasm for Zinzendorf as an "ideal reporter."

[robnewman]

Ah, so Zinzendorf just decided to make it up, right ? As Mozart (so we are told) made up the statement that he 'could remember not a note' of a symphony he himself had supposedly composed not long before ? This nonsense is laughably typical of those who will always believe what they want to believe and who allow the actual musical evidence, today at the Estense Library in Modena, to go unrecognised and unappreciated, decade after decade.

'Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'



I take heart that a few people, lovers of music, will, having examined the evidence surrounding Mozart's life, career and status from more than one side be best able to form a fair and considered judgement.

Robert Newman

[Catison]

This nonsense is laughably typical of those who will always believe what they want to believe and who allow the actual musical evidence

LOL.  Are you reviewing your own book?

[robnewman]

LOL.  Are you reviewing your own book?

No. We are all books in the best sense of the word. And we are all reviewed. Some freely. Others being books whose cost is our own integrity.  

[Rod Corkin]

And what brought about the "immoderate behaviour", I wonder?  Don't bother answering, as I know....

One the other hand there an numerous apparent Mozartians who seem to follow Rob around wherever he goes, and who quite frankly are more interested in the fraud/conspiracy topics than they are in Mozart's music, for their enthusiasm for discussing Mozart in more conventional terms is far less. They will join a forum solely for participation in his topics, then leave the forum when he has gone. This phenomenon I have witnessed at my site and others, and GMG will be no different in this respect. Such people I have no respect for, even Mr Newman is above them!

[Catison]

No. We are all books in the best sense of the word. And we are all reviewed. Some freely. Others being books whose cost is our own integrity.  

It is quite clear that when presented with evidence and real facts you cannot do much else but repeat the same nonsense.  You want to be the great majority of one.  This seems so important to you that you cannot accept clear facts.  But no, you can't do that.  You can't accept anything that is widely believed because that would make you just like everyone else.  Too bad for you.  I hope you have a day job.

[Florestan]

Mozart (so we are told) made up the statement that he 'could remember not a note' of a symphony he himself had supposedly composed not long before

Elsewhere in this thread you stated that Mozart's letter are deceitful and he deliberately cheated his father more than once. Now you select a statement from one of his letters and build an entire case upon it. How do you know that in this instance Mozart was telling the truth?

[robnewman]

It is quite clear that when presented with evidence and real facts you cannot do much else but repeat the same nonsense.  You want to be the great majority of one.  This seems so important to you that you cannot accept clear facts.  But no, you can't do that.  You can't accept anything that is widely believed because that would make you just like everyone else.  Too bad for you.  I hope you have a day job.

You surrendered, long ago, to the Mozart industry and its corporate propaganda. You are not really interested to judge on the actual facts of the case, because of wearing a pair of Mozartean spectacles which allow you to examine issues only from the majority, predetermined view. Though the 'majority view' is really that which is most ignorant and most dumb. Most suppressive of plain, documentary facts. Most ignorant of Mozart, his time, his contemporaries, the case against his myth, and so on. And so, every benefit of the reasonable doubt, every presentation of evidence, is seen as irrelevant, as false, the opposite of what it actually is. And all of this the product of being a consumer of the Mozart industry and its inability to accept fair and reasonable criticism, no matter how piled high the evidence may be. You live on a musical Easter Island, surrounded by icons. Which speak, and whose priests you believe.

It was, for me, quite a discovery that facts are really of secondary importance to the average student of Mozart. That glaring contradictions and stories riddled with absurdities, improbabilities, and even cases of documented, downright fraud, could somehow not cause people to question the dominance of the myth itself. But as time passed, it became clear that facts, evidence, honesty, etc. are not what Mozarteans are all about. Since the cosy world of Mozart, 'musical genius' is and always was a secular religion. The best answer to which is to laugh and learn, from time to time, that others, lovers of music, agree.

[robnewman]

Elsewhere in this thread you stated that Mozart's letter are deceitful and he deliberately cheated his father more than once. Now you select a statement from one of his letters and build an entire case upon it. How do you know that in this instance Mozart was telling the truth?

But the opposite is true. The Mozartean is restricted to these letters. He does not know where Italy is. He has never been to Modena and would not go there if you bought him an airline ticket and paid his taxi to the Estense Library in Modena. His view of Mozart's career is that of a hologram. Which can even be pulled apart and riddled with a million holes, but which still persuades him/her of its truth, its reality. In such a case the discovery of music scores, or the findings of other musicologists are, well, suppressed, downplayed, and ignored altogether. Systematically, routinely, without the batting of an eyelid. All in the glare of the Mozartean headlights, the corporate 'education' of young students.

So that Mozart's 'genius' is all, the credit card out of every practical difficulty in those studies, and the lowest common denominator is the dumbing down of history, of reality itself. A career path which is opened only to the musical underachiever and to those who subscribe to such nonsense.

[Florestan]

But the opposite is true. The Mozartean is restricted to these letters. He does not know where Italy is. He has never been to Modena and would not go there is you bought him an airline ticket. His view of Mozart's career is that of a hologram. Which can be pulled apart and riddled with a million holes, but which still persaudes him/her of its reality. In such a case the discovery of music scores, or the findings of other musicologists are, well, suppressed, downplayed, and ignored altogether. All in the glare of the Mozartean headlights, the corporate 'education' of young students.

So that 'genius' is all, and the lowest common denominator is the dumbing down of history, of reality itself. A career in which is opened to the underachiever and to those who subscribe to its nonsense.

Care to answer my question, or not? How do you know that that particular assertion of Mozart is true, when you stated elsewhere that his letters are full of lies?

[robnewman]

Care to answer my question, or not? How do you know that that particular assertion of Mozart is true, when you stated elsewhere that his letters are full of lies?

Well, let me ask you the same question. What sort of science is it which relies entirely on the views and testimony of the person under examination ? This is as circular as it can possibly get !

Why not do yourself a favour and examine this issue from all aspects ? So that you will not need to depend on this particular assertion or that particular assertion by Mozart, but on the totality of the evidence, documentary and other kinds, which all indicate the same thing. Namely, that this affair of the 'Haffner' Symphony is one of the same, normal, usual nonsense. That he, W.A. Mozart is not, in fact, the composer of this symphony. And that his letters to his father are to be seen in the light of all the evidence. Letters which set up an absurd situation of supposedly sending music for a festivity later than the date when it was actually needed, this without acknowledging that fact, and that the same music could be returned without its 'composer' even remembering a note of it. Where, but in the world of 'Mozart studies' would this nonsense form the basis for anyone's belief or argument ? It is obvious Mozart is the FOX News of classical music. But send us a postcard from the Estense Library in Modena when you finally get there !!  

[Josquin des Prez]

One the other hand there an numerous apparent Mozartians who seem to follow Rob around wherever he goes, and who quite frankly are more interested in the fraud/conspiracy topics than they are in Mozart's music, for their enthusiasm for discussing Mozart in more conventional terms is far less. They will join a forum solely for participation in his topics, then leave the forum when he has gone. This phenomenon I have witnessed at my site and others, and GMG will be no different in this respect. Such people I have no respect for, even Mr Newman is above them!

The hell are you talking about.

[Florestan]

What sort of science is it which relies entirely on the views and testimony of the person under examination ? This is as circular as it can possibly get !

Precisely. Then stop parading that assertion of Mozart (that he couldn't remember a iota of the symphony) as if it proves anything. It proves nothing.

[robnewman]

Precisely. Then stop parading that assertion of Mozart (that he couldn't remember a iota of the symphony) as if it proves anything. It proves nothing.

I happily agree. Since the assertions of Mozart prove nothing. We learn nothing from them on which we can rely. This releases us to examine, if we dare, the manuscript evidence of the 'Haffner' score today at the Estense Library in Modena, Italy which has been waiting for the arrival of the Mozartean faithful for close to 200 years. The news of which was brought to you, of course, by those whose interest is only in the evidence. And by nobody else. As usual.

[Holly]

One the other hand there an numerous apparent Mozartians who seem to follow Rob around wherever he goes, and who quite frankly are more interested in the fraud/conspiracy topics than they are in Mozart's music, for their enthusiasm for discussing Mozart in more conventional terms is far less. They will join a forum solely for participation in his topics, then leave the forum when he has gone. This phenomenon I have witnessed at my site and others, and GMG will be no different in this respect. Such people I have no respect for, even Mr Newman is above them!

I'm not sure this is right.  When Newman joined your CMM and started discussing Le Nozze you were glad of the customers he attracted from the MozartForum and other places.  The majority of them only came along to discuss the alleged controversy issues, and weren't interested in raising the profile of your Forum as a venue for discussing Mozart in more conventional ways.  And who can blame them given your general apathy towards any composer but Beethoven and Handel (and Morricone)?  It was clear that you were disappointed when most of them  eventually drifted back to whence they came, but that was your fault.  Apart from CMM, it's not true that Newman attracted "Mozartians" to any other Forum.  Certainly he attracted no such people at T-C which was where he had his longest run and probably made his biggest "splash".  The folk who challenged his views there were all generalists (not Mozart specialists), and the same was true at BRS and CMG.  If you believe I am wrong please tell me who you are referring to.

[Rod Corkin]

If you believe I am wrong please tell me who you are referring to.

I believe you are totally wrong with regard to CMM and your perception of the site generally. In fact perhaps you are one of the people I am referring to because you are so out of touch with the current state of affairs over there but you seem to know in detail what was going on when Rob was about.