Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Cato]

Yesterday my youngest son visited us, which meant it was time to suffer watching these yawn-inducing T.V. shows where you see people...buying houses!

One show featured people in southern Alabama trying to decide which of 3 houses to buy: the realtor and the buyers were well nigh incomprehensible!  Now I grew up in an Ohio neighborhood with "refugees" from rural Tennessee and Kentucky.  But their accents did not prepare me for the incredible twisting and mangling of vowels and consonants heard on this show!

The worst (best) example of this torture:

Realtor: "Whale, layuz geeder roadup thayun!" 

Translation for non-Americans (and Americans): "Well. let's get her (i.e. the offer to buy the house) wrote up then!"  Of course, "wrote" should be "written."  Using the feminine "her" for "it" has been around for a long time in lower-level English.

Despite their accents, the people had money!  The house cost c. $300,000!   0:)

[Jo498]

When I was in the US for the first time as an 23 yo student somewhat struggling to get from textbook learning to everyday practical language I wondered why so many neutral things were referred to by feminine pronouns (recall that Twain has endless fun with the awful German having "die Rübe" feminine and "das Fräulein" neutral, so one would expect English to be better in that regard...).
My host answered that anything a man can have an affective relationship with can (and often will) be feminine. His example was: "I have to fix the lawnmower; she broke down yesterday."

[Cato]

When I was in the US for the first time as an 23 yo student somewhat struggling to get from textbook learning to everyday practical language I wondered why so many neutral things were referred to by feminine pronouns (recall that Twain has endless fun with the awful German having "die Rübe" feminine and "das Fräulein" neutral, so one would expect English to be better in that regard...).
My host answered that anything a man can have an affective relationship with can (and often will) be feminine. His example was: "I have to fix the lawnmower; she broke down yesterday."

Oh yes!  Cars, boats, airplanes, etc. can all become feminine for some.  Women occasionally have been known to give names to their cars: a television commercial for an auto insurance company shows a woman who has named her favorite car "Brad."     Men, of course, have been known to do the same e.g. "Yeah, Ol' Betsy broke down on me again!"

Concerning the accent comments yesterday: while checking a few things, I came across a debate on how to define "enunciation" vs. "pronunciation," and ended up finding people who said they were basically synonyms, that "enunciation" meant how clearly one spoke (although the sounds produced could be opposed to what should be produced), that "pronunciation" meant how a word should be said (clarity not being involved), and that the previous two definitions should be reversed! 

My Random House College Dictionary defines "enunciate" with: "to pronounce in an especially articulate manner."

However, it also defines "pronounce" with: "to enunciate or articulate (words, phrases, sounds, etc.)" 

And for "articulate" : "to pronounce clearly and distinctly"  (My emphasis)

So, this dictionary has nothing about whether the sound produced must also be considered standard, which was a big item in the Internet debates.

So Random House considers the two words synonyms, and the correctness irrelevant...or is correctness assumed? 

[zamyrabyrd]

How about Oxford Dictionary?
"enunciate"

VERB [WITH OBJECT]
1 Say or pronounce clearly.
'she enunciated each word slowly'

Synonyms
1.1 Express (a proposition, theory, etc.) in clear or definite terms.
'a written document enunciating this policy'

Origin
Mid 16th century (as enunciation): from Latin enuntiat- 'announced clearly', from the verb enuntiare, from e- (variant of ex-) 'out' + nuntiare 'announce' (from nuntius 'messenger').

[Ken B]

Oh yes!  Cars, boats, airplanes, etc. can all become feminine for some.  Women occasionally have been known to give names to their cars: a television commercial for an auto insurance company shows a woman who has named her favorite car "Brad."     Men, of course, have been known to do the same e.g. "Yeah, Ol' Betsy broke down on me again!"

Concerning the accent comments yesterday: while checking a few things, I came across a debate on how to define "enunciation" vs. "pronunciation," and ended up finding people who said they were basically synonyms, that "enunciation" meant how clearly one spoke (although the sounds produced could be opposed to what should be produced), that "pronunciation" meant how a word should be said (clarity not being involved), and that the previous two definitions should be reversed! 

My Random House College Dictionary defines "enunciate" with: "to pronounce in an especially articulate manner."

However, it also defines "pronounce" with: "to enunciate or articulate (words, phrases, sounds, etc.)" 

And for "articulate" : "to pronounce clearly and distinctly"  (My emphasis)

So, this dictionary has nothing about whether the sound produced must also be considered standard, which was a big item in the Internet debates.

So Random House considers the two words synonyms, and the correctness irrelevant...or is correctness assumed? 

To enunciate is the opposite of to mumble or to slur, it is to articulate sounds and syllables clearly. You can clearly enunciate an incorrect pronunciation. But they tend to blend.  In Toronto "Toronto" often sounds like "Tronno". If someone clearly enunciates "tor on toe" he's probably not from Toronto.

[Cato]

To enunciate is the opposite of to mumble or to slur, it is to articulate sounds and syllables clearly. You can clearly enunciate an incorrect pronunciation. But they tend to blend.  In Toronto "Toronto" often sounds like "Tronno". If someone clearly enunciates "tor on toe" he's probably not from Toronto.

We have a similar phenomenon here in Columbus: many say "C'lumbus" without the "o."    T.V. people and D.J.'s have in recent years been pushing "C-bus" (See-bus) as their "cool" way of referring to the city.

[Ken B]

We have a similar phenomenon here in Columbus: many say "C'lumbus" without the "o."    T.V. people and D.J.'s have in recent years been pushing "C-bus" (See-bus) as their "cool" way of referring to the city.

It's worse than you are admitting Cato! It's spelt O-H-I-O but the correct pronunciation is "lower Michigan".

[Karl Henning]

Ah, The TV People . . . .

[Cato]

It's worse than you are admitting Cato! It's spelt O-H-I-O but the correct pronunciation is "lower Michigan".

Here in "C-bus," the word "M...n" is pronounced "that state up north."

Ah, The TV People . . . .

"Round up the usual suspects!"  0:)

[Ken B]

Here in "C-bus," the word "M...n" is pronounced "that state up north."

Michigan is proof Canada won the war of 1812. At the end of the war we held Detroit. We must have won, because we forced you to take it back.

[Cato]

Michigan is proof Canada won the war of 1812. At the end of the war we held Detroit. We must have won, because we forced you to take it back.

A similar joke exists about Toledo.

In the 1800's there was a border dispute between Michigan and Ohio, sometimes called "The Toledo War:" shots were fired now and then, but nobody was killed.  Ohio insisted that various surveys placed Toledo in Ohio.

The joke is that Michigan must have won, because Toledo stayed in Ohio!

[Ken B]

A similar joke exists about Toledo.

In the 1800's there was a border dispute between Michigan and Ohio, sometimes called "The Toledo War:" shots were fired now and then, but nobody was killed.  Ohio insisted that various surveys placed Toledo in Ohio.

The joke is that Michigan must have won, because Toledo stayed in Ohio!

I lived in northern Kentucky and worked in Cinci. Three states join nearby, Ind, Oh, Ky. There was a joke you could tell who lived in Indiana: they were the ones who would claim to live in Ohio.

(think about it.)

[André]

To enunciate is the opposite of to mumble or to slur, it is to articulate sounds and syllables clearly. You can clearly enunciate an incorrect pronunciation. But they tend to blend.  In Toronto "Toronto" often sounds like "Tronno". If someone clearly enunciates "tor on toe" he's probably not from Toronto.

Correct. Montrealers make a point of clearly pronouncing its three syllables   

[Ken B]

Correct. Montrealers make a point of clearly pronouncing its three syllables   

So do I! But then I pronounce the t in Montreal too.

I grew up an hour west of Toronto. When I was a kid I was the only Habs fan within 100 miles.

[André]

So do I! But then I pronounce the t in Montreal too.

I grew up an hour west of Toronto. When I was a kid I was the only Habs fan within 100 miles.

Yes, it was a great team a few decades ago...

[Cato]

Heard tonight on T.V. from a Michigander    : "...ascared..."  (i.e. afraid)

I have never heard this curiosity  ("scared" + "afraid" ) before: sources say it is also British slang.

[Ken B]

Heard tonight on T.V. from a Michigander    : "...ascared..."  (i.e. afraid)

I have never heard this curiosity  ("scared" + "afraid" ) before: sources say it is also British slang.

I'm afeared it is.

[Cato]

Courtesy of my favorite local T.V. station: a new definition of the word "fight."

(I am not making this up!) 

"Coming up: how a fight at a convenience store...led to violence!"   

[kishnevi]

Courtesy of my favorite local T.V. station: a new definition of the word "fight."

(I am not making this up!) 

"Coming up: how a fight at a convenience store...led to violence!"   

I give this a pass. I recall fight being used in the sense of "verbal and only verbal argumentation" as a kid fifty years ago.

This does give me a chance to mention one of my favorite Sydney Smith witticisms.

One day he saw two women arguing, each from a window in a different house. Quoth Rev. Smith: They will never agree. They are arguing from different premises.

[Karl Henning]

One day he saw two women arguing, each from a window in a different house. Quoth Rev. Smith: They will never agree. They are arguing from different premises.

Nice!