Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Cato]

It should be "from he who cultivates it." The nominative form is used because "he" functions as the subject of the clause, regardless of the clause itself being an object of the preposition.

[/b]



See my previous explanation.

e.g.

"The gift is from..."

a. he
b. his
c. him

[The Six]

And him cultivated it very nicely.

[Grazioso]

[/b]



See my previous explanation.

e.g.

"The gift is from..."

a. he
b. his
c. him

That example functions differently. "The gift is from him" is standard because the pronoun is functioning exclusively as the object of the preposition. "from he who cultivates it" is standard because the pronoun is functioning as the subject of the clause following the preposition.

[from him]
[from {he who cultivates it}]

Function within the clause dictates the case.

And him cultivated it very nicely.

Word! 

[karlhenning]

Pronoun trouble.

[Cato]

That example functions differently. "The gift is from him" is standard because the pronoun is functioning exclusively as the object of the preposition. "from he who cultivates it" is standard because the pronoun is functioning as the subject of the clause following the preposition.

[from him]
[from {he who cultivates it}]

Function within the clause dictates the case.

Word! 

No, you still do not understand.

"From" needs an object!

The antecedent for "who"  comes from the Object of the preposition "From."

"He" cannot be the object of a preposition: it is only for subjects.  "Who" is the subject for "cultivates."

Therefore: "...from him who cultivates it." is correct.

Trust me, and the English teachers I consulted - just to make sure, despite my background in 4 languages - at a teachers' convention during the last two days. 

[chasmaniac]

Teachers schmeachers! "He" is not the object of the preposition. "He who cultivates it" is the object, within which the pronoun declines nominitively. Case dismissed. 

[Grazioso]

No, you still do not understand.

"From" needs an object!

The antecedent for "who"  comes from the Object of the preposition "From."

"He" cannot be the object of a preposition: it is only for subjects.  "Who" is the subject for "cultivates."

Therefore: "...from him who cultivates it." is correct.

Trust me, and the English teachers I consulted - just to make sure, despite my background in 4 languages - at a teachers' convention during the last two days.

I do understand exactly what you're saying; I'm just disagreeing with it

Teachers schmeachers! "He" is not the object of the preposition. "He who cultivates it" is the object, within which the pronoun declines nominitively. Case dismissed. 

Exactly.

[Grazioso]

We need to consult Ornette Coleman!

 

[Cato]

Well, I ignored the oddity from the previous post, which distorted my example (The gift is from him) into making "him" a subject for "cultivates."

Allow me to quote:

Function within the clause dictates the case.

You are quite right, so let us follow that rule.

"From" is not part of the relative clause: within its part of the sentence, it is a preposition needing an object: "him" in this case.

Its function as a preposition generates the only form possible: him.

Within the relative clause the verb generates the form "who."  It does not generate a "he."

I have already explained that "he who" cannot be used here: it is an indefinite expression which can be used at the beginning of a sentence, but not here.

Q.E.D.   0:)

[chasmaniac]

  Ah, good times! 

[DavidRoss]

Perhaps this burning controversy can be settled by agreeing that both are correct, depending upon how we choose to think of the clause.  Is "he who picks grammatical nits" the clause which itself is the object of "from," or is "who picks grammatical nits" a clause modifying "him" which is the object of the preposition? Some of us read it as the former, and some as the latter.

More cowbell!

[Cato]

That solution can work for things e.g. "Do you know who broke the window?"

"Who broke the window" is a direct object of "know,", and "who" is an interrogative (not relative) pronoun here.  With our other sentence and its preposition "from" we understand "who" as referring to the object of "from," i.e. him.

Years ago a very bright student of mine once asked: "Can you interpret 'who' as a relative pronoun with an understood antecedent?"   

i.e.  "Do you know (the person) who broke the window?"

Wow!     0:)     Yes, I suppose you could understand it that way. 

I should mention that this student is now a Ph.D. in Computational Linguistics at Princeton (a real Professor Higgins!) and the last I heard, was working on programs for computers to understand languages.

[karlhenning]

Teachers schmeachers! "He" is not the object of the preposition. "He who cultivates it" is the object, within which the pronoun declines nominitively. Case dismissed. 

Erm, no. "He" is indeed the (mis-declined) object; "who cultivates it" is a subordinate clause modifying (what should be) the pronoun "him."

From him. From whom? From him who cultivates it.

[karlhenning]

That solution can work for things e.g. "Do you know who broke the window?"

I know him who broke the window.

[chasmaniac]

Erm, no. "He" is indeed the (mis-declined) object; "who cultivates it" is a subordinate clause modifying (what should be) the pronoun "him."

From him. From whom? From him who cultivates it.

You're the sort what cause unrest.

[karlhenning]

God created me in part to serve as a disruptor; I accept that . . . .

[chasmaniac]

Erm, no. "He" is indeed the (mis-declined) object; "who cultivates it" is a subordinate clause modifying (what should be) the pronoun "him."

From him. From whom? From him who cultivates it.

This much I'll give you: "from" calls powerfully for the dative. Yes, I feel its shrill demand! Granting it, however, leaves us with subject and verb misaligned, thus: "[him] cultivates it". Sumfin's gotta give. Who cultivates it? He does.

[karlhenning]

Who cultivates it? He does.

He does, indeed, and I know him. For that matter, I know him whom he knows, too.

[Cato]

God created me in part to serve as a disruptor; I accept that . . . .

Amen!   0:)

Chasmaniac wrote:

Granting it, however, leaves us with subject and verb misaligned, thus: "[him] cultivates it". Sumfin's gotta give. Who cultivates it? He does.

It does no such thing, since you are now mixing interrogative pronouns with relative pronouns.  See the earlier example for an explanation.

One more example of a common "from" - and - "who(m)" problem:

"Who'd ya get a present from?"  ("Whooja" is actually more likely!    )

Your English teacher taught you not to end sentences with prepositions (although there are limits to that, e.g. the infamous "to put up with").

Of course, the very proper "From whom did you receive a present?" which corrects the "who" error, is obsolescent, if not obsolete.

The result is a population increasingly unclear and even achingly, frustratingly vague in their language, when distinctions like who/whom die away.

I mentioned my attendance at a convention of teachers: one expert commented that in 1960, studies show that the average vocabulary of a graduating American high-school senior was c. 40,000-50,000 words.       

In 1994, the surveys showed a 50% drop, which was attributed to the decline of reading, and to a decline in the quality of what was read.

All of these surveys, estimates, etc. vary widely.  In my experience, an A+ high-school senior is more likely to be in the area of 10,000 words, with a third of that being his everyday vocabulary.    Trim away vocabulary as you descend the ladder of grades.

What I can verify via my c. 40-year career is the unwillingness of present-day students to open a dictionary to discover what a word means, and the lack of a habit of reading among an increasing majority.

[Grazioso]

What I can verify via my c. 40-year career is the unwillingness of present-day students to open a dictionary to discover what a word means, and the lack of a habit of reading among an increasing majority.

Ours is a culture of instant gratification and ever-decreasing attention spans. Why read or educate yourself when it takes work? After all, you could be texting while watching Jersey Shore or tweeting on the Net while watching YouTube videos.

Along with TV and the Internet, spell checkers are another easily abused technology contributing to reduced literacy. Bear/bare, its/it's... "But, teacher, the spell checker said it was ok!"