Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Cato]

That's a definition that Fukuyama coins to the word in one of his books. The actual meaning of the word in Greek, still in use, is magnanimity.

Yes.

Earlier, I had disagreed with "magnanimity" as a possible meaning.  At the time I was separated from my reference books.

So I have dug through the finally shrinking - yet still vast - Cato Archives and excavated my Ancient Greek Dictionary (Liddell and Scott) purchased over 50 years ago.

It seems that we are all correct, or at least not incorrect      , about megalothymia: the word is given as a variation on "megathumos" (found in Plato) which the authors say means "high-minded."      At least for Plato!

Because...

"Thumos" the root has all kinds of meanings: the basic one is "soul" and is said to be parallel with Latin's "anima."

However, depending on the author and the century, many other possibilities are given: desire (of various kinds from desire to shoot, desire for meat, etc.), "heart," "the seat of sorrow or joy," spirit, courage, anger, wrath, mind, temper, willpower, thinking power.

So "magnanimity" and "desire for recognition" are not stretches of the word by any means!

[Ken B]

Earlier, I had disagreed with "magnanimity" as a possible meaning.  At the time I was separated from my reference books.

So I have dug through the finally shrinking - yet still vast - Cato Archives and excavated my Ancient Greek Dictionary (Liddell and Scott) purchased over 50 years ago.

It seems that we are all correct, or at least not incorrect      , about megalothymia: the word is given as a variation on "megathumos" (found in Plato) which the authors say means "high-minded."      At least for Plato!

Because...

"Thumos" the root has all kinds of meanings: the basic one is "soul" and is said to be parallel with Latin's "anima."

However, depending on the author and the century, many other possibilities are given: desire (of various kinds from desire to shoot, desire for meat, etc.), "heart," "the seat of sorrow or joy," spirit, courage, anger, wrath, mind, temper, willpower, thinking power.

So "magnanimity" and "desire for recognition" are not stretches of the word by any means!

But the neologism is an English word. Even from French etymology is not always an accurate guide. Command, demand, cent, actual, etc.

[North Star]

But the neologism is an English word. Even from French etymology is not always an accurate guide. Command, demand, cent, actual, etc.

Encore!

[Ken B]

Encore!

Drole.

[North Star]

Drole.

Downright grotesque!

[Cato]

I am not making this up!   

On a country road in Ohio lurks a large sign outside a veterinarian clinic with this plea:

Kitten Milk Is Needed 

Hmmm!

Possible meanings:

1. Famous Las Vegas stripper Kitten Milk should be reporting to this clinic to help entertain the pet owners, while their pets undergo delicate operations. 

2. You should try to milk your kittens with itsy bitsy eye-droppers and bring it to this clinic.   

3. Milk for kittens is needed.   0:)

[Karl Henning]

I guess that's less alarmist than Mars Needs Kitten Milk!

[Cato]

I guess that's less alarmist than Mars Needs Kitten Milk!

Could be the sequel!  But I think Tommy Kirk and Yvonne Craig are too old these days to reprise their roles. 

[kishnevi]

As seen on Sefer Panim

[Wanderer]

It seems that we are all correct, or at least not incorrect      , about megalothymia: the word is given as a variation on "megathumos" (found in Plato) which the authors say means "high-minded."      At least for Plato!

Μεγάθυμος (adj.)  is indeed only encountered in Plato with this meaning – μεγάθυμος (adj.) meaning magnanimous is encountered much earlier in Homer and Hesiod and as far as I know that is what's considered the standard definition, its derivative(s) being used and encountered with this meaning ever since.

Note that it's the adjective, not the noun that is encountered in Plato with the "high-minded" meaning and that's important; in ancient Greek one never assumes a derivative word has the same meaning as the word it supposedly derives from unless it is encountered in sources, contemporary or later, and/or there are signs of its use with this meaning elsewhere. As far as I can tell, the use of the derivative noun with the "high-minded" meaning is a 20th century neologism coined very recently for commentary on this particular Platonic text.

"Thumos" the root has all kinds of meanings: the basic one is "soul" and is said to be parallel with Latin's "anima."

However, depending on the author and the century, many other possibilities are given: desire (of various kinds from desire to shoot, desire for meat, etc.), "heart," "the seat of sorrow or joy," spirit, courage, anger, wrath, mind, temper, willpower, thinking power.

Indeed, and it gets stranger.    "Thumos" or "thymos" actually corresponds to two different words, θύμος and θυμός (note the difference in acccent, which can't be replicated in Latin transliteration) each with a variety of meanings.

So "magnanimity" and "desire for recognition" are not stretches of the word by any means!

Indeed! The first being the let's say standard definition, the other a neologism used in Platonic studies (or a definition pertaining specifically to Plato). I understand your predilection for it. 

[Karl Henning]

As seen on Sefer Panim

Wonderful;  I'm sharing this . . . .

[Ten thumbs]

Funnily enough, I've recently met a rescue cat who, when tiny, had no mother and needed kitten milk, which is not that readily available. Ever tried milking a cat? I'm not sure though why it isn't called cat milk.

[Cato]

Today a substitute priest with something of a New Joisey accent says:

"Sane Paww eluded to da Trinnady..."

Ignoring the problems with proper pronunciation, I wondered if "eluded" was a simple one-time lapse.

But he later talked about "Sane Paww" "eluding" to other things two more times, with a definite long "E" at the beginning. 

This distraction meant that at times his points alluded me.  0:)   

[Ken B]

Today a substitute priest with something of a New Joisey accent says:

"Sane Paww eluded to da Trinnady..."

Ignoring the problems with proper pronunciation, I wondered if "eluded" was a simple one-time lapse.

But he later talked about "Sane Paww" "eluding" to other things two more times, with a definite long "E" at the beginning. 

This distraction meant that at times his points alluded me.  0:)   

Ya know wut dey sez about the Saint Valentine's massacree. It was an alley, gory.

[jochanaan]

Ya know wut dey sez about the Saint Valentine's massacree. It was an alley, gory.

Owwwww!!

Lots of folks seem never to have learned the distinction between illusion and allusion.

[Cato]

Owwwww!!

Lots of folks seem never to have learned the distinction between illusion and allusion.

One vowel  makes all the difference!  0:)

Speaking of mispronunciations, I am hearing too often "eemediately" rather than the short "i" for "immediately."

[jochanaan]

One vowel  makes all the difference!  0:)

The bustard's an exquisite fowl
With minimal reason to growl:
He escapes what would be
Illegitimacy
By the grace of a fortunate vowel. --George Vaill

[Karl Henning]

Not the Vaill of tears?

[jochanaan]

Obviously not, given the evidence of that limerick.

[Ken B]

One vowel  makes all the difference!  0:)

Speaking of mispronunciations, I am hearing too often "eemediately" rather than the short "i" for "immediately."

I asked my friend Fack about that and he nodded.