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[Karl Henning]

Judiwth Wegmann plays it very briskly, it changes the tone of the piece quite radically.

You're being quite generous, from concerts I get the impression classical music listeners are the ones that have their minds closed tighter than a bear trap

Witness all the organizations which have to program Beethoven lest they alienate their sugar daddies.

[Spotted Horses]

I've read audiophiles complain about DG symphony recordings even in the tape era, with their use of too many microphones.

IMO DG made up some things too. Around the time The Originals remasters came out the blurb in the booklet almost made it sound like they were remixing the tracks which would have created quite a radically different sound from the LPs or old West German CDs. Yet in most instances The Originals remasters range from sounding marginally worse to marginally better. I think they were just EQ'ing them differently and selling us on some fancy techno babble.

To me the 4D marketing speak sounds like they were just using some multitrack digital console instead of an analog console, which as someone else said they and others carried on doing after analog tape recording was no longer done, just removing the 4D monicker.

To me there are bad sounding analog tape, digital era and 4D DG recordings as well as very good sounding ones. My general view on them is the recordings are what they are, if I like the performances enough I won't let the recording quality ruin anything for me. Some of my most favorite performances are on scratchy acetates and 78s.

Also +1 to what Brian said, I read through the thread from where I last left off and there was barely any discussion on this. I am all for learning about all things music related without stifling discourse.

I pretty much agree with all of this. My substantial issue is that this supposedly transformative technology is not different than the digital mixing consoles that the other labels were using. The main effect was that it facilitated DG's propensity to use larger and larger numbers of microphones, producing a sound which strikes me as farther from the natural sound of a concert hall. The other issue is just the absurdity of the hype. Copying directly out of an "Originals" booklet, it claims they can "remix older recordings to recreate the original sound image." Huh? They apply this to mono recordings from the early 50's, when we know for a fact that all they have is a single channel tape. How do you "recreate the original sound image" from a single audio channel? And what exactly is the "original sound image."

I think some of the originals do sound better because the LP and early CD releases had restricted low bass (which caused problems with LP playback) which they restored. At one point I did a quantitative comparison. I analyzed a passage from Strauss Metamorphosen in four CDs, Karajan's 70's recording Galleria release, the same recording "Originals" release, Karajan's 1981 digital recording, and a recording by Blomstedt on Decca. (I do some signal analysis as part of my work so I used my own analysis code). A comparison is shown. The Galleria recording bass response drops precipitously below about 50 Hz (black curve). The "Original" release of the same recording has much more bass power (red curve), similar to the Decca recording (green curve). The 1981 Karajan recording has an intermediate level of bass power. All three Karajan recordings seem to have a boosted upper mid range compared with Decca. Clearly in this case they adjusted to EQ to restore the low bass, possibly going back to original session tapes which had not been EQ's for the LP release.

[aukhawk]

And multimicing (as opposed to, or as well as, a simple array slung high) has been with us forever.  Szell/Cleveland, Ormandy/Philadelphia, Bernstein/NYPO - these old recordings are now much-loved but they were heavily multimiced, and many critics at the time marked them down for this reason.

[Mandryka]

https://allthatdust.bandcamp.com/album/canoni-circolari

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/nov/04/aldo-clementi-canoni-circolari-review-binaural-download

[Madiel]

That's the beautiful mystery and the mysterious beauty of Chopin's music: the more one tries hard to define it, the less one succeeds. In my book he is, along with Liszt, the ultimate Romantic / romantic composer: they had no predecessors but they had dozens of followers. That being said, I prefer the half-Pole to the not-one-bit-Hungarian.   

Of course there were things about what we identify as "Romantic" music that Chopin pretty much despised. He is mysterious indeed. And a singular talent.

Best go and listen to some now...

[Brian]

Have really been appreciating the conversation here among the sound engineers/nerds. I don't know nearly enough to contribute but I do remember the ludicrous puffed-up introductions to the The Originals booklets, and also remember attending concerts being recorded for Naxos which used 22+ microphones.

I don't have a particular opinion on multimiking (being a huge fan of the unique sound of the NYPO/Bernstein recordings among others) but did notice that many of them sound, if you close your eyes, like you're hovering above the orchestra 12 feet in the air.

[Spotted Horses]

And multimicing (as opposed to, or as well as, a simple array slung high) has been with us forever.  Szell/Cleveland, Ormandy/Philadelphia, Bernstein/NYPO - these old recordings are now much-loved but they were heavily multimiced, and many critics at the time marked them down for this reason.

It is a matter of degree. The technology might have allowed them to use 10 microphones, and likely had to do a live mix down. Now they can have dozens and dozens of microphones, approaching one for each instrument in the orchestra.

This is what multi-miking used to look like. I could nine in the Barbirolli recording session at Kingsway, about the same number for Krips in the Concertgebouw.

Anyway, I'm not an audio purist, the quality of the performance is my primary interest. But an honest microphone technique makes me feel closer to the actual performance. For instance, in Karajan's 1963 recording of Brahms first symphony finale the horns make their entry with their famous theme, sounding as though they are striving to be heard from within the body of the orchestra with wonderfully sensuous reverberation. It is thrilling. In his 1978 recording, it sounds as though the principal horn player is sitting two rows in front of me and and stood up to play the theme with the bell of his instrument in my face. Karajan wanted his record to sound 'better' than a concert, but for me the natural sound of a good concert hall is best.

[Karl Henning]

Anyway, I'm not an audio purist, the quality of the performance is my primary interest. But an honest microphone technique makes me feel closer to the actual performance. For instance, in Karajan's 1963 recording of Brahms first symphony finale the horns make their entry with their famous theme, sounding as though they are striving to be heard from within the body of the orchestra with wonderfully sensuous reverberation. It is thrilling. In his 1978 recording, it sounds as though the principal horn player is sitting two rows in front of me and and stood up to play the theme with the bell of his instrument in my face. Karajan wanted his record to sound 'better' than a concert, but for me the natural sound of a good concert hall is best.

This, entirely.

[aukhawk]

These days a (rock) drumkit alone would require at least 11 mics, in fact if the engineer deployed any fewer than that the drummer would very likely refuse to play.  (I have been known to put 'dummy' mics out over a drumkit to keep the drummer sweet.)
I feel sure the Columbia/CBS recordings of circa 1960 used many more than 10 mics, but I agree about the good point that they had to be mixed down live.  Some of the remastered Bernstein/NYPO recordings sound terrific, as does my own favourite from that era, the Ormandy/Rostropovich/Philadelphia premiere recording of the DSCH Cello Concerto.  And then again of course there's the marvellous Mercury recordings from the same era, using a deceptively simple array of just 3 omni mics to stunning effect.  Decca (Kingsway Hall) refined that technique, but with less obviously good results.

[Roasted Swan]

Out of curiosity - what is the piece being recorded with Barbirolli...... 6 horns and triple wind but a small chorus..... Delius Appalachia perhaps??  If so the Barbirolli's last recording session I think.......

[Karl Henning]

These days a (rock) drumkit alone would require at least 11 mics ....

I'm not a sound engineer, so in my innocence, it seems to me a challenge to give those 11 sources each a distinct "stage."

[Spotted Horses]

You know your Barbirolli!

I scanned it from the booklet of this set:



The caption reads, "Recording the finale of Appalachia, Kingsway Hall, July 17, 1970." Godfrey MacDomnic.

[Brian]

Now that is impressive detective work! 

[Florestan]

Witness all the organizations which have to program Beethoven lest they alienate their sugar daddies.

One could do much worse than program Beethoven. And one could spend a lifetime on Beethoven alone.

Ain't it? 

[Roasted Swan]

You know your Barbirolli!

I scanned it from the booklet of this set:



The caption reads, "Recording the finale of Appalachia, Kingsway Hall, July 17, 1970." Godfrey MacDomnic.

Thanks for confirming that.  So many great recordings/musical occasions in the Kingsway Hall.  My professional playing career just missed ever going to the hall which has long disappeared from London's landscape - its somewhere I would love to have just stood in!  That Appalachia is a great recording by any measure but the spirit of the work (and the words of that closing chorus) seem especially apt/poignant given Barbirolli's imminent death....

[Florestan]

Of course there were things about what we identify as "Romantic" music that Chopin pretty much despised.

Of course. În many respects he was an ultra-Romantic anti-Romantic. 

[Spotted Horses]

Thanks for confirming that.  So many great recordings/musical occasions in the Kingsway Hall.  My professional playing career just missed ever going to the hall which has long disappeared from London's landscape - its somewhere I would love to have just stood in!  That Appalachia is a great recording by any measure but the spirit of the work (and the words of that closing chorus) seem especially apt/poignant given Barbirolli's imminent death....

The notes in the release recount the circumstances. Barbirolli collapsed on the podium during the sessions and was rushed to hospital. He checked himself out the next day to finish the recording. That was two weeks before his death.

[Mandryka]

One could do much worse than program Beethoven.

Hard to imagine. Liszt maybe.

[Brian]

Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations have completed their Beethoven cycle with symphonies 6-9 and will release the results on a 3 CD set in January.

[SonicMan46]

Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations have completed their Beethoven cycle with symphonies 6-9 and will release the results on a 3 CD set in January.

Thanks Brian - I was wondering about the completion of Savall's cycle w/ the COVID delay - looking forward to the response - enjoyed the first set on Spotify - Dave