Rihm's Wolf Gang

[snyprrr]

Bildlos/Weglos

I had avoided this for the longest time, thinking there was a lot of awful singing, BUT, wow, this may be the best piece I've heard from Rihm. It's on the DG 'Hommage a Tarkovsky' Abbado disc. Some of the best vocalese I've heard,... great stuff here@@@!!!


PLEASE CHECK OUT  MY WORKS LISTS  ABOVE,  AND COMMENT!!!!!!

[CRCulver]

Bildlos/Weglos

I had avoided this for the longest time, thinking there was a lot of awful singing, BUT, wow, this may be the best piece I've heard from Rihm. It's on the DG 'Hommage a Tarkovsky' Abbado disc. Some of the best vocalese I've heard,... great stuff here@@@!!!

It's an odd piece. While the programme on that disc is supposedly an homage to Andrei Tarkovsky, "bildlos/weglos" is essentially Rihm's homage to Luigi Nono.

[snyprrr]

It's an odd piece. While the programme on that disc is supposedly an homage to Andrei Tarkovsky, "bildlos/weglos" is essentially Rihm's homage to Luigi Nono.

I find you the most consistently critical of Rihm in your Amazon reviews- lol, I mean that as a compliment!- but, I've noticed a general dissatisfaction with many of the pairings of recent vintage, including the ColLegno, Wergo, Neos, and Hannsler issues.

Now, I pretty much agree with you on most all things, and I'm definitely having a "Rihm problem" (oh, that sounds awful). He's so diverse, and we've all plowed this field over and over looking for gems (I just said no to the '4 Studies for Clarinet Quinet'... so many of his pieces are so long), and time and again I keep saying, "Well, Im glad I held off of that one for now."

I was particularly dismayed by 'Sub-Kontur' and 'Dis-Kontur', and even some of 'Tutuguri', because of Rihm's favorite percussive device: the punctuating jungle drum assault trick. And I really don't care too much for all the newer Orchestral Works and Concertos that sound like they were written by Brahms in 1919-1926 after WWI. Or Berg on Valium? 'Coll-Arco' and the String Quartet No.11 came to mind. And the 'Konzert in einem Satz'.



I just listened again to 'Time Chant' by Mutter today, trying to remember the first Rihm exposure: it came off as a "major piece", and one where Rihm was trying hard and succeeding at whatever agenda he had there- it does have its cosmic moments. Then, also, the 'Licht Spiel', which is waaay more like Brahms/Berg1926, so very conservative and Hollywood, again, a biggish piece, but this time I'd rather hear DSCH.




Jagden und Formen

It's just that this is his "hit single" so to speak, on the consumer stage of Tower Records. It's pretty cool, and renders a lot of CDs also-rans (all those 'Chiffre' CDs, though I'd like another crack at the CPO). I almost want to say, "Why do I have to get more Rihm?"


I recently got the very first Hannsler 2CD with 'Morphonie' and that 'Klang...' piece. 'Klang...' was from 1989,right before the Nono-Conversion. This piece has all kinds of stuff lacking from others, but there isn't much Rihm that sounds like this 'Klang...' piece. I thought the 'bildlos/weglos' had that arch-modernist sound I love. Also 'Frau/Stimme' and 'Frage' were cool.



Hannsler Vol1: 4 Concertos

CONCERTO Dithyrambe/ Sotto Voce

Sphare---Sphare/ Frage

Holderlin Fragmente (SONY).... I'd like to hear...








Sorry, getting sleepy... I'm all ears if you want to Rihm-inate!

(I know you always go back to 'Im Innersten'... I really liked SQ 13)

[snyprrr]

Jagden und Formen (1995-2001)

I dedicated the hour to listening to the DG version (it has now been updated by ten years or so). It actually seemed to go by rather quickly,

J+F, to me, comes of as a very "etched" Symphony-Concerto for Orchestra, which seems to me an appropriate designation for Rihm in general: the "Symphony-Concerto" guy. I do remember my absolute favourite part is where- I assume- it's the tuba that makes the sound of a hippo's death wail... I actually missed it last night, but remember- do you?

Rihm's music sounds to me as if the pen came alive in a cartoon, becoming thinner with the etched sections, more like a Sharpie at other times. I can really hear Rihm's music being written (I think at the very end of the 7th SQ, the cello plays this long ostinato, which is then "scribbled out" before resuming again).

There's none of Rihm's Nono-isms here, it's all moto-Rihm all the way. But there's also not much in the way of extended techniques or 'misterioso' elements as there are in the earlier 'Klangschreibung I-III' (1987; @90mins.!). Between these two very large pieces (1985-2005, let's say) lies an ocean's worth of other Orchestral Works. At this point I feel the need to be careful with Rihm so as not to overstay his welcome with dud-flops. Collecting Rihm could break a man $$$!! LOL!!!



Right now, my favourite Rihm occurs between 1986 and 1995. Here lies much oddball Rihm, with interesting sounds not found elsewhere. I took special note of Rihm's LEAST prolific years and worked out from there- there seem to fall- 1975, 1985, 1995, 2005... and one can see the changing tides along these lings. After 2006 it's all New Rihm. Before 1985 it's all black-as-night Rihm. 1986-1995-2001 seems to hold the most treasures. Others may disagree...



String Quartet No.6 'Blaubuch' (198345?)

Here is an example from the tail end of Rihm's frenzied first flowering (1976-1985) of Rihm that I'm not particularly fond of, though it has its moments. It's in Rihm's "frenzy" style, but, here's the rub- it's over 40mins. long! For me, all things work together here to wear the listener down, wither by accident, or, more likely, on purpose. In this regard, it sits in with the extra-long String Trio and Piano Trio from the same era. But here I'm just not convinced; perhaps it is the sameness of sound of four strings grating and grinding for so long?

My least favoured Rihm SQs are No.6 and No.11 (perhaps along with its progenitor, the 'Quartettstudie') simply because they are Rihm at his most unbridled and edit-free. I do think No.6 could have been shorter, but, maybe not? Still, the only way i can take a longer Rihm piece is if there are different and interesting sounds to go along with the 'Zeit' thing. In No.6 it's pretty austere and brutal; in No.11 it's somewhat Romantic wallowing.

To see how turned-around things get, just check out the next SQ, No.7 'Verwanderung'. It's 18mins. are packed with interesting and misterio sounds, even more so than the more famous No.8 (I think 7-10 are the high point right now, including No.13). Maybe the most tellingoaf all is No.10, which has two static and event-free mouvements surrounding a much longer central "Battle" that truly, by the end, is a barrel-of-monkies of fun- it really sounds like a fight!  It shows Rihm straddling his various interests quite intelligently, solving musical problems,... so many problems...

[nathanb]

I will admit to not caring for much of his later, more conservative orchestral works. But even so, that leaves so many gold mines it hurts.

I'd be fairly comfortable calling this my favorite Rihm disc:

[snyprrr]

I will admit to not caring for much of his later, more conservative orchestral works. But even so, that leaves so many gold mines it hurts.

I'd be fairly comfortable calling this my favorite Rihm disc:

That's the one I had just got for dirt cheap- and yes, no matter how you slice it, there's just so much THERE there in this set... it MAKES you go on the hunt for more stuff like it, but, alas, this IS it...  I've been wrestle with it for a few weeks (long timed tracks makes it harder to listen through in one sit- logistics and cars...)...

I think 'Klangsch...' has a little of the attitude of DSCH's Symphony No.1 and BAZ's Sinfonie in einem satz... very dark, black, etched, spattered/splattered... when everyone else was going "up to date", it seems Rihm went back to Hartmann and early Zimmermann...

I struggle to find what goes along with it... I'm tempted with the 2nd String Quartet Concerto )"CONCERTO" Dithyrambe)... but I can already tell they're completely different animals... I think the ColLegno 'Orchestral & Chamber Music' fits some of the same pointers...


sorry- grogged out this a.m.


I think I'm going to the bank tomorrow on Rihm's behalf.... I believe he's be touched knowing I'm going to financially hurt myself for HIM!!!!! haha ... Have Mercy...


I really am starting to get a grip on who ARE Rihm...



So, anyhow... between the works of 'Klangschreibung I-III' and 'Jagden und Formen'... we really have such huge big great works there... I was taking them for granted...

[snyprrr]

Gesungene Zeit (1991-1992)

Is this like a super successful indie director making his first Hollywood movie?


It... like much other Rihm... doesn't seem to fit with other works around it... it IS more lyrical, but it still has an Avant edge to it. The 2nd Mutter piece is like fully blown Ultra-Late Romanticism... I'd say @1935-1936...?...


I NEED TO HEAR WHAT OTHERS THINK HERE

[nathanb]

On the way to heat transfer (class), I listened to (not for the first time, just a special time)...

Styx Und Lethe

...as if I needed further proof that I far prefer early/middle Rihm to later Rihm...

[snyprrr]

On the way to heat transfer (class), I listened to (not for the first time, just a special time)...

Styx Und Lethe

...as if I needed further proof that I far prefer early/middle Rihm to later Rihm...

Yes, yes,... but.... uh... wait... what? You likey or no likey? I thought everyone liked that Hanssler Vol.1 with the four concertos? I've been trying to talk myself out of it. Please, say more... I think 1995 is the cut-off for the 1986-1995 period, even though that particular one is marked heavy with a lot of the overt "Nono" pieces that no one seems to like. But then, 'Jagden und Formen' isn't released until 2001, so, where... what?... is this 'Late' Rihm?

It's obviously the stuff that starts to sound like someone from 1926,... hey, it would've been avant THEN! I've been heavily debating on that 'Sotto Voce' disc with the Arditti concerto,... it's only 54mins. run time, ouch! But also,... eh... mm... I'm hemming and hawing here.

I'm gonna make a list here- next Post:

[snyprrr]

Morphonie (1972; Concerto for String Quartet and large orchestra) 40mins.

This is his big debut hit, and it's Hartmann and early Zimmermann, scorching and blazing . I really see so need to get any other Orchestral Work till the late '80s, the 'Klangschreibung I-III' to be exact, which also happen to be on the same 2CD set (Hannsler). Many think it's the best overall Rihm introduction next to the DG.

String Quartet No.3 'Im Innersten' (1976) @35mins.
Musik fur Drei Streicher (1977) @60mins.
'Frembde Szenen I-III' (1979?-1983?) @45mins.

The great length,and generally high level of tension throughout these Chamber Music works, make Orchestral Rihm in the '70s seem to pale in comparison. Or, maybe, they are just that much closer to the heart of the matter. I'd say these three are the Perfect Rihm Symphony of Horror. This is great, meaty stuff,... but, get them all and really have a go at it on a stormy night!


String Quartet No.7 'Veranderungen'? @17mins.
String Quartet No.8 'Ohne Titel' 15mins.
String Quartet No.9 'Quartettsatz' @23mins.
String Quartet No.10

No.7 is by far the most effects heavy, and coolest in my book, overshadowed by the Arditti's No.8, which has the "ripping of the score" bit and such antics. No.9 is a meaty nut to crack, encapsulating a lot of Rihm's new found concerns; and No.10 has two static, Nono-like outer movements surrounding a central 'Battaglia/Folia' that is a literal "fight" amoungst the combatants- hilarious!

String Quartet No.12
String Quartet No.13

No.11 seemed to be in Rihm's melodic mode of late, but these two continue on with what I think is intereesting music, No.13 being the standout to my ears.




1985




Klanschreibung I-III (...1987)

These three pieces equal about 90mins. of the best effects heavy Rihm. I don't know of any other piece that does what these do. And I think most everyone agrees, it's just a bygone conclusion at this point. Great stuff, black as night.

Depart
Frau/Stimme
Bildlos/Weglos
Frage

The first is with chorus, the others with female singer(s). These are mostly in that great early-'90s period and represent some of the most creative set piece building around. 'Depart' opens with just such a creepy graveyard feel, only to move along. 'Bildlos/Weglos' builds to the soprano's eerie entry. Rihm wrote what seems like dozens of Orcheatral Works between 1985-1995, but I think these are the standouts. Besides the Mutter, this is not a concerto-driven era.


'CONCERTO' Dithyrambe
'Sotto Voce' Notturno & Capriccio

This Kairos disc seems pretty short of time, but these pieces intrigue me more than the string concertos of that Hanssler disc. Can you talk me out of this one?



JAGDEN UND FORMEN

yea, it's pretty cool fun there, can't deny the fun here, lots of it.





And it seems like I'm supposed to have more. What's wrong here?

[nathanb]

snyprrr,

The main Rihm pieces that come to mind in the "don't do much of anything for me" category would be the Verwandlungen pieces. And the Two Other Movements were a bit tedious too. Konzert In Einem Satz was nothing compared to Styx Und Lethe, either. I guess that's only the last 10 or so years of stuff that I find uninspired. As for what would qualify as "late Rihm", it could be those, or it could be elsewhere. He definitely has more than two distinctive creative periods...

[nathanb]

It'll be hard to talk you out of any KAIROS disc, snyprrr. THAT... ain't my style

If you want to save money, I'd say grab the Arditti 3/5/8 disc and then ignore his other quartets for a while. They're solid quartets, but for someone not looking to take out a second mortgage over Rihm, the orchestral collection demands more attention.

[snyprrr]

snyprrr,

The main Rihm pieces that come to mind in the "don't do much of anything for me" category would be the Verwandlungen pieces. And the Two Other Movements were a bit tedious too. Konzert In Einem Satz was nothing compared to Styx Und Lethe, either. I guess that's only the last 10 or so years of stuff that I find uninspired. As for what would qualify as "late Rihm", it could be those, or it could be elsewhere. He definitely has more than two distinctive creative periods...

So, wait, did LIKE 'Styx und Lethe', or not?? That second cello concerto does go on, just like that clarinet concerto thing...

It'll be hard to talk you out of any KAIROS disc, snyprrr. THAT... ain't my style

If you want to save money, I'd say grab the Arditti 3/5/8 disc and then ignore his other quartets for a while. They're solid quartets, but for someone not looking to take out a second mortgage over Rihm, the orchestral collection demands more attention.

No, I've had the Arditti disc for decades... I just don't like the way ColLegno divvied up the Minguet Cycle... either way, Vol.3, with 7-9, would be the one to get there. I also have the ABQ in No.4.

No, I've had the first Mutter, the J+F on DG, and the Arditti, since they came out. It's been EXPANDING my Rihm universe that has been the rub. And I did just order that old ColLegno disc with 'Frau/Stimme' and 'IN-SCHRIFT'... but, besides the Hannsler and Kairos "concerto" discs, I think I might've actually passed my Rihm obstacle course!

He has nothing else quite like the 'Klanschreibung'. does he? 'Tutuguri' had too many elementally pounding drums for me.




AND-

That Bayer CD with 'O Notte', the viola concerto, the Red & Black Dance, and the two other pieces...(one is 'Dunkles Spiel') have you heard that one? It's tempting, but the last two pieces are kind of soft in Rihm's Nono=period way, and the rest of the programme doesn't really send my juices a'flowin'.


My usual strategy with Composers like Rihm (too much stuff- Milhaud, Cowell, Villa-Lobos...) is to over-study their Works List, and cross ref that with their Discography, until I've seen for my own eyes how flippin expensive it would be to even START collection! But, many times, there is one CD, or set, that really encapsulates a lot...

Rihm is just an odd case

sorry, i'm poopin out for the evening... zzZZzz....zzzZZzzzz...zzZZzzz.....

[nathanb]

Yes, LOVED Styx Und Lethe.

Though I will admit that some other pieces around that period are signs of the decline.

MY usual strategy with just about any composer is to pick out the discs from favorite labels first (KAIROS/NEOS/Col Legno/Mode/Wergo/Aeon). Unfortunately, after all was said and done, my iPod has 41 Rihm monographics on it...

[snyprrr]

Yes, LOVED Styx Und Lethe.

Though I will admit that some other pieces around that period are signs of the decline.

MY usual strategy with just about any composer is to pick out the discs from favorite labels first (KAIROS/NEOS/Col Legno/Mode/Wergo/Aeon). Unfortunately, after all was said and done, my iPod has 41 Rihm monographics on it...

Hannsler Vol.1 gets a 10/10 from you? OK, that settles it...

[nathanb]

Hannsler Vol.1 gets a 10/10 from you? OK, that settles it...

9/10 overall probably. Only the Morphonie/Klangbeschreibung gets a 10/10 for hannsler. I would overall probably recommend these higher than the Edition No. 1:

All KAIROS Rihm (6, to my knowledge)
All NEOS Rihm Monographics (Monographics because the Konzert In Einem Satz w/ the Toch concerto is def not that great)
Et Lux (ECM)
Maybe Sub-Kontur/Dis-Kontur/Unbennant IV? (Col Legno)

And of course you don't have to have two sets of the piano pieces, but when the two sets are from KAIROS and NEOS, that there is an equation with no solution...

I also like Dominik Susteck a lot but admittedly his Rihm might be the least amazing of his WERGO quintet.

[snyprrr]

9/10 overall probably. Only the Morphonie/Klangbeschreibung gets a 10/10 for hannsler. I would overall probably recommend these higher than the Edition No. 1:

All KAIROS Rihm (6, to my knowledge)
All NEOS Rihm Monographics (Monographics because the Konzert In Einem Satz w/ the Toch concerto is def not that great)
Et Lux (ECM)
Maybe Sub-Kontur/Dis-Kontur/Unbennant IV? (Col Legno)

And of course you don't have to have two sets of the piano pieces, but when the two sets are from KAIROS and NEOS, that there is an equation with no solution...

I also like Dominik Susteck a lot but admittedly his Rihm might be the least amazing of his WERGO quintet.

I thought his Piano Music was his least successful genre?


Also, the 'Dis' and 'Sub' pieces had too much of Rihm's particular use of percussion (he does seem to favour very primal beats which I have a hard time tolerating- here is where Xenakis excels)- but I did like the sounds of 'Ubennant IV'.



Hey- so are we like best new buds or what, LOL!!?? You sure are helping me save some $$$, haha!!  (I did just get the York Holler 'Topic' disc which is phenomenal!)



I AM glad there are people out there that I can vicariously live through their Libraries... I have a great imagination, so I don't actually need to HEAR a lot of things, the IDEA is the thing...

Again, we are always on the search for the "aha" moment, no?

[nathanb]

I thought his Piano Music was his least successful genre?


Also, the 'Dis' and 'Sub' pieces had too much of Rihm's particular use of percussion (he does seem to favour very primal beats which I have a hard time tolerating- here is where Xenakis excels)- but I did like the sounds of 'Ubennant IV'.



Hey- so are we like best new buds or what, LOL!!?? You sure are helping me save some $$$, haha!!  (I did just get the York Holler 'Topic' disc which is phenomenal!)



I AM glad there are people out there that I can vicariously live through their Libraries... I have a great imagination, so I don't actually need to HEAR a lot of things, the IDEA is the thing...

Again, we are always on the search for the "aha" moment, no?

I don't know much about the critical acclaim of his piano music, but some of it is quite enjoyable. At least grab one of the KAIROS discs. As far as the Sub-/Dis-, I actually agree with you that his percussion sound here can be a bit much (but I'd agree moreso if we were talking about the last part of Tutuguri), but these pieces also have his growling early brass sound in spades, so I can't say no.

And yes, best buds could be a fair way to put it I was a bit hesitant about what to do after migrating over here, but when some guy starts talking about Ruzicka and Holler non-stop, I have found my calling.

[CRCulver]

I thought his Piano Music was his least successful genre?

Well, it is hard for me to enjoy much of my Rihm piano collection after what Siegfried Mauser did and was told by the judge at his trial.

[nathanb]

Well, it is hard for me to enjoy much of my Rihm piano collection after what Siegfried Mauser did and was told by the judge at his trial.

Yikes! Didn't know about that!

I guess you'll have to fall back on...