5 Worst Composers Ever!!

[ChamberNut]

The blank choice means John Cage

Coffee squirts through nose!

[jowcol]

As a rule of thumb, I never try to make blanket statements about a given composer being good or bad, since it's a subjective assessment, and music history has been filled with scathing reviews for people we now put on pedestals.  So, I'll need to qualify my response-- I'll just list some of the composers I simply "don't get", where my reaction doesn't seem to meet the hype, or cases where I just have a personal grudge.

Brahams.  Leaves me cold.  I'd rank him high on craftsmanship, but never on inspiration.

Mozart-- There are a couple of scraps I like, but I don't get it when people say Mozart is their religion.  Bach I could understand

Tchaikovsky-- Okay, a great orchestrator, and I really love a few of his works.  But I can't forgive some of the bad things he said about Mussorgsky.

Saint-Saens- I like Danse Macabre, but I can't forgive him for being so critical of Debussy.

Wagner-- Some brilliant moments, but you need to wade through a lot to get to the good parts. And the whole anti-semetism was a turnoff-- although sadly he was not alone.  If I like the music enough, I can divorce the composer form the musician in my mind (Case in point-- Miles Davis)


Gluck-- what little I heard in no way inspired me to dig any further.

I also harbor the deep conviction that John Phillips Souza is the Antichrist-- if we were to consider him fair game. 

Anyway-- some of these composers I may warm up to later.  I know that everyone I've listed is a better composer than I'll ever be....

[Florestan]

Brahams.  Leaves me cold.  I'd rank him high on craftsmanship, but never on inspiration.

I agree 100 %. Brahms, on the other hand... 

[karlhenning]

Now hang on, if M were here wouldn't he be on about the v=ff issue?

That's right, Guido, it's covee, not coffee, you fool.....

Hmm . . . I have an idea that in Turkish, it's kahve . . . .

[Dana]

Brahms.  Leaves me cold.  I'd rank him high on craftsmanship, but never on inspiration.

Mozart-- There are a couple of scraps I like, but I don't get it when people say Mozart is their religion.

      Have you heard either of these composers live? I don't think people should be allowed to say things like that if they haven't heard it live. It's like watching a football game on TV and then saying it's a stupid sport - you're really only getting half of the picture. There's absolutely nothing in the world like a good Mozart string quartet - but you'll rarely get that from a recording.

I also harbor the deep conviction that John Phillips Souza is the Antichrist-- if we were to consider him fair game.

Amen!

[jowcol]

      Have you heard either of these composers live? I don't think people should be allowed to say things like that if they haven't heard it live. It's like watching a football game on TV and then saying it's a stupid sport - you're really only getting half of the picture. There's absolutely nothing in the world like a good Mozart string quartet - but you'll rarely get that from a recording.

Amen!

Unfortunately both of them have died before I was born. I always wished I caught Mozart at the Fillmore!     


Seriously, yes I have heard live performances of both.   I certainly agree that something gets lost in a recording, and a bad live performance can also  turn one off.    I've tried in each case to frame this as a personal opinion and not an pretense of an objective judgment, because frankly, I don't think that is possible.  There is no apples to apples, and as the noted classical composer Jerry Garcia said "music isn't a contest".

But if I hadn't heard any of their works live, would I be "allowed" to voice an opinion if framed as such?  I understand your frustration when people make hasty judgments, but let's face it.  Some people are going to take an immediate dislike to the music we love without giving it a fair shot. To use your example, if I took my wife to a football game, she'd hate the sport even more, and I'd be in the doghouse for a week.  It's already a source of discord in our happy home....


I'm a big fan of Hindustani classical music, and think that is one of the most intense live experiences one can have with music.  It was so hypnotic that I noticed the crowd around me (most Indian) were breathing in unison, and riveted to a single scale for two hours.  Yet, most people I know would hate me for dragging them to a performance.


I've even found it difficult to recommend music to people based on other composers they like because how people react to music is so subjective.  For me, it's been much easier for me not to worry about people liking or respecting the music I do, and to support others in pursuing the music that moves them.  So if it's Mozart, Braham, Easy Listening, Rap, or.. gulp, Souza, I want them to listen as passionately as they can, and use the music to grow and explore.  In my book, the one thing that should "not be allowed" is for someone not to really love any kind of music, and not to know what it can do for their lives.

I didn't mean to seem overly critical about your post-- as I said, I can understand the frustration, and it's clear to me you found music you love that transcends day-to-day life. Which is something that I love to see!  Stravinsky had a great quote about the problem with music appreciation is that people are taught to respect music, but they should be taught to love it instead.

  I make it a point to go back and listen to things that don't "click" with me after a few years to see if I missed something.  I'll keep you in mind next time I dip into Mozart.


wjp

[Brian]

Hmm . . . I have an idea that in Turkish, it's kahve . . . .

Evet.

[ChamberNut]

I must say I'm very surprised at the aversion and dislike to Tchaikovsky's music (several people).  To each their own, of course.  Nevertheless, I'm still surprised.

For what it's worth, there was a time that I could not stand his music either.  I found the beginning of the 4th symphony incredibly annoying, and it completely put me off on beginning exploring his symphonies for a few years.  Also, I could not stand The Nutcracker (COULD NOT STAND IT!).  Now, I absolutely love it! 

[Bogey]

Coffee squirts through nose!

Can you sue McDonalds for that, Ray?

[Brian]

I must say I'm very surprised at the aversion and dislike to Tchaikovsky's music (several people).  To each their own, of course.  Nevertheless, I'm still surprised.

For what it's worth, there was a time that I could not stand his music either.  I found the beginning of the 4th symphony incredibly annoying, and it completely put me off on beginning exploring his symphonies for a few years.  Also, I could not stand The Nutcracker (COULD NOT STAND IT!).  Now, I absolutely love it!  

I went through an anti-Tchaikovsky phase too. My specific bane was the Fifth Symphony; the Fifth Symphony seemed so shallow to me, so strung-together. It wasn't a symphony; it was one thing after another, and it was loud and the silly-grin happy ending really bothered me. Spent several weeks trying to find something to like about it, but to no avail. So I set it aside for a while; specifically, I set it aside for two years. At the end of those two years, during which I grew as a (teenage) person and evolved as a listener, it just so happened one day that, looking at my music collection, I thought, "I should find the CD that I have listened to least," and by golly, Tchaikovsky's Fifth (Ormandy, Philadelphia) was the one that had gone unplayed for the longest time.

And, for whatever reason, that day it all changed. It's been only a few years, four at most, since I rediscovered that symphony. Now I'd count Tchaikovsky's Fifth in my top dozen personal favorite symphonies, and I own no less than 12 separate recordings of the piece. It's still the same music. But the listener changed. 

[Dana]

Unfortunately both of them have died before I was born. I always wished I caught Mozart at the Fillmore!   

He was at Pine Knob in '96. And that was before he became a sell out!

But if I hadn't heard any of their works live, would I be "allowed" to voice an opinion if framed as such?  I understand your frustration when people make hasty judgments, but let's face it.  Some people are going to take an immediate dislike to the music we love without giving it a fair shot. To use your example, if I took my wife to a football game, she'd hate the sport even more, and I'd be in the doghouse for a week.  It's already a source of discord in our happy home....

      For sure, not everything can be for everyone, (I say that having done my undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, where I lived in a house of anti-football people - I feel your pain!). I wasn't voicing displeasure so much at people making snap judgments so much as people who take the canned goods as being as good as the fresh stuff - if people want to hear a piece of music, they so often say "oh, I'll go get a good recording of it!" and in doing so, fail to realize that if music is about anything, it's about communication - between the musicians, and between the performers and the audience. Even most performers will admit that having someone worthwhile to play for plays a big part in eliciting a good performance from them, and not just because we tend to play off in rehearsals. Music exists within time and space as much as it exists within the audio plane, and losing that critical element is damning in a lot more ways than just losing the sonority effect. A good live performance is worth 10 recordings, lest those recordings be of historical value

[Franco]

A good live performance is worth 10 recordings

I would venture to say, any live performance is worth ten recordings.  But, that still will not be enough to sway a listener who does not get the music.

[monafam]

I believe that the discussion on live performances vs recordings is probably more about making snap judgements, but I did want to mention something from my standpoint.

The cost associated with live performances, the ease to get to, and other logistics (I have children which may not be able to attend all functions) are somewhat a deterrant.  While I certainly may be missing out, the convenience and cost associated with primarily listening to recordings only makes this an excellent choice in my circumstances.  

This is not intended as a pro-recording/anti-live performance message, but rather a situation I certainly find myself in.  

Now the odds of me making a snap judgement and then publically declaring something as if I am now an expert are pretty low, so I know this wasn't directed specifically at me.

[ChamberNut]

A good live performance is worth 10 recordings

Boy, that can be so true.  And it was for me regarding Sibelius' Violin Concerto.  Did not care for the piece, until I heard it performed live last week.

It can make a huge difference in gaining an appreciation.

[jowcol]

One issue one runs into when comparing live vs recorded performances is the current repertoire, and the degree to which it is dominated by the standards.  I don't have a chance to see performances of works by the composers that have been exciting me the most recently, and it's often hard to find all of their works in print.


PS:  I have a boot of the Pine Knob '96 show.....

[snyprrr]

Did not Mozart lampoon the Ed Wood composer wannabes of his day with his Ein Musikalischer Spaß?  (K. 522)

Not fair bringing Ed Wood into it! THAT... is genius!... because, remember "The Future, for that is where you and I will spend the rest of our lives."



And, to the critics I say, I love laughing at vainglory, which is pretty much what composing music is (except for Bach 0:)). Only because the best music is so worthy of seriousness is the rest of music doomed to heckling.

"Requiem for Neitschtzke", hahahahahaha



Oh, and may I remind everyone that Charles Wuorinen is planning an opera based on "Brokeback Mountain".

Suckety, suck suck.

I'm listening to Saint-Saens SQs as I'm writing this, and I feel like a hypocrite!

[Cato]

Oh, and may I remind everyone that Charles Wuorinen is planning an opera based on "Brokeback Mountain".

Suckety, suck suck.

Given the context, I find that really really obscene!   0:)

[Bulldog]

Have you heard either of these composers live? I don't think people should be allowed to say things like that if they haven't heard it live.

That's a rigid point of view I don't share and one that doesn't take into account personal preferences except for Dana's.

[Dana]

      OK, you've proved me wrong. What are your personal preferences? And what experiences would you draw upon to justify your preferences?

[DavidW]

Hearing something live is awesome BUT it's not so revelatory that recordings are a poor copy in comparison.  There are some concerts that just completely blew my mind, but it's mostly the excitement of the evening.

Here is what I think is missing on a recording that you get in a live concert: it's very possible to hear the timbre of the individual instruments in a chamber orchestra, and depending on acoustics, even symphony orchestras sound less mushy live.  You also don't really have a sense of how much a symphony orchestra can project in a cd, but you can live.  And by project I mean VOLUME, and the quick changes in dynamics with that ability to produce very loud are quiet volumes are pretty impressive.  In a large hall the sound really fills the room and sounds spacious in a way you can't get in your living room.  Also the biggest thing for me, is that all instruments sound warm with a very smooth treble roll off.  Even harpsichords sound pleasant and not abrasive, something you don't get on a cd.

However it's still the same music, and cds (well recorded, engineered cds that is) do capture the nuances of a performance.  If you don't like it recorded, chances are you won't like it live (as I've seen myself) and I don't consider hearing the music live to be essential to judging the music.