Discrimination against progressives?

[Josquin des Prez]

Lincoln was wrong about the capacities of the different races.

Was he?

[Teresa]

Josquin des Prez your answers are weird.      So you don't believe in democracy, one person, one vote.  You also do not believe when people are given all sides of an issue that they can make an educated decision for themselves.

Why do you have such a low opinion of the common man? 

Why do you think Progressives would send people to re-education camps?  Do Liberals or Conservatives send people to re-education camps when they do not agree with their platforms?  Or do Liberals and Conservatives do exactly what Progressives do by presenting their platforms on the internet and in position papers?

You are just too weird to believe! 

[Teresa]

A system by which a selected few can rule the majority by means of manipulation as opposed to authority. America is blessed enough to have both forms of oppression.

This is why we need reform, as we are currently being ruled by Corporate Interests instead of the popular will of the people.  Part of the problem is the tremendous amount of money it costs to run for office.  This will be cured with Campaign reform including free equal air-time for all candidates required by TV and Radio stations as part of their license renewals.  And other ways to remove the pressure on politicians to be beholden to money interests. 

Grassroots Democracy

Community Assemblies: Ground political representation in a foundation of participatory, direct democracy: a Community Assembly in every neighborhood, open to all of its residents, acting as a grassroots legislative body, with its own budget for local administration, and the power (in concert with other Citizens Assemblies who share a representative) to monitor, instruct, and recall representatives elected to municipal, state, and federal office.

A Proportional, Single-Chamber US Congress: Abolish the disproportional, aristocratic US Senate. Create a single-chamber US Congress, elected by a system of mixed-member proportional representation that combines district representatives elected by preference voting and party representatives seated in proportion to each party's vote.

Environmental Home Rule: Establish the right of every state, county, and municipality to restrict or prohibit the production, sale, distribution, storage, or transportation of any substance it designates as dangerous or toxic.

Average Workers' Pay for Elected Officials: Pay elected officials average workers' salaries so that they understand the needs of average people and stop being an elite of professional politicians with separate class interests.

Fair Elections

Proportional Representation: Elect legislative bodies by proportional representation where each party has representation in proportion to its total vote.

Preference Voting: Elect single offices by majority preference voting where voters rank candidates in order of preference and votes are distributed according to preferences in instant runoffs until a winner receives a majority of votes.

Public Campaign and Party Financing: Equal public campaign financing and free broadcast media time for all candidates who agree not to use private money. Equal free broadcast media time for party broadcasts. Public financing of parties through matching funds for party dues and small donations up to $300 a year.

Fair Ballot Access: Federal legislation to require each state to enable a new party or any independent candidate to qualify for the ballot through a petition of no greater than 1/10th of 1% of the total vote cast in the district in the last gubernatorial election, with a 10,000 signature maximum.

[DavidRoss]

This is why we need reform, as we are currently being ruled by Corporate Interests instead of the popular will of the people.  Part of the problem is the tremendous amount of money it costs to run for office.  [It doesn't cost much to run for office--though in some states, filing fees for state or national office can reach a few thousand dollars.  However, it usually costs a lot to win--but this is entirely due to the idiocy of the electorate.  If you come up with a way to get voters to inform themselves and vote according to their real interests and not in slavish devotion to the slick lies of self-serving politicos, I'm all for it--but as long as most voters insist on being stupid, then money and politics will be BFF!]  This will be cured with Campaign reform including free equal air-time for all candidates required by TV and Radio stations as part of their license renewals.  And other ways to remove the pressure on politicians to be beholden to money interests.  [The only way to reduce the power of special interests in politics is to reduce the power of politicians.  The founders of our republic understood this, thus explicitly restricted government power to a few essential functions.]

Community Assemblies: Ground political representation in a foundation of participatory, direct democracy: a Community Assembly in every neighborhood, open to all of its residents, acting as a grassroots legislative body, with its own budget for local administration, and the power (in concert with other Citizens Assemblies who share a representative) to monitor, instruct, and recall representatives elected to municipal, state, and federal office. [Oh my God!  You want yet another layer of bureaucracy with its hands in the people's pockets and meddling busybodies interfering with citizens' lives?  Let's see--city councils, county supervisors, state senators and assemblymen and executive office holders, plus Congress and all the other yahoos in Washington haven't screwed things up enough for you, and your proposed solution is to have even more of the same?  And you want to institutionalize the same sort of idiocy that's destroying California via the ballot initiative process?  No, thank you, ma'am!]

A Proportional, Single-Chamber US Congress: Abolish the disproportional, aristocratic US Senate. Create a single-chamber US Congress, elected by a system of mixed-member proportional representation that combines district representatives elected by preference voting and party representatives seated in proportion to each party's vote. [Holy mother-of-pearl, Batman!  You don't understand that the Senate is the people's bulwark against tyranny of the majority, created specifically to prevent populous states from riding roughshod over less populous ones.  Nor do you understand that Congress was intended to be inefficient, thus making it more difficult to pass bad legislation.  (Too bad that the founders didn't foresee the rise of professional politicians, the entrenched two-party system, or the coming of "government of the lawyers, by the lawyers, and for the lawyers.")]

Environmental Home Rule: Establish the right of every state, county, and municipality to restrict or prohibit the production, sale, distribution, storage, or transportation of any substance it designates as dangerous or toxic. [You propose a clusterf*ck of conflict with Congressional power to regulate interstate commerce.  More work for lawyers!  (The "Progressive" wet dream.)  Yippee!]

Average Workers' Pay for Elected Officials: Pay elected officials average workers' salaries so that they understand the needs of average people and stop being an elite of professional politicians with separate class interests. [I'm not sure that this would make much difference to independently wealthy politicians like Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, or Dianne Feinstein, but I'm sympathetic with the principle.  However, you fail to understand that it's not the managerial class salaries that attract moral midgets to politics, but rather the power to enrich themselves through influence-peddling.  The only way to control that is to restrict their power--say, to the very limited range of powers authorized by the Constitution.]

Proportional Representation: Elect legislative bodies by proportional representation where each party has representation in proportion to its total vote. [So you want to throw out the Constitution and imitate the practice of States like Italy and Great Britain?  How's that working out for them?  ]

Preference Voting: Elect single offices by majority preference voting where voters rank candidates in order of preference and votes are distributed according to preferences in instant runoffs until a winner receives a majority of votes. [This seems like such a bizarre bit of cumbersome and expensive tinkering with the election process, at odds with some of your other proposals that hope to reduce the influence of money in politics, that I've no idea how to respond.  I'm speechless.]

Public Campaign and Party Financing: Equal public campaign financing and free broadcast media time for all candidates who agree not to use private money. Equal free broadcast media time for party broadcasts. Public financing of parties through matching funds for party dues and small donations up to $300 a year. [If you think this will end the power of special interests in politics, then you are even more naïve than the average teenager.  Again, the only way to restrict the power of special interests to influence elections and office holders is to restrict the powers held by elected officials.]

Fair Ballot Access: Federal legislation to require each state to enable a new party or any independent candidate to qualify for the ballot through a petition of no greater than 1/10th of 1% of the total vote cast in the district in the last gubernatorial election, with a 10,000 signature maximum.[Ahhh!  Now you've identified the single most critical issue in American politics (from a "Progressive" point of view):  insufficent federal interference with the powers of independent states explicitly protected by the Constitution's enumeration of specific federal powers and explicit reservation of all other powers to the States and the People.]

Gosh, Teresa, I don't doubt that you're a nice person and it sure seems as if your heart is in the right place.  Now you need to temper that with experience and understanding, otherwise your good instincts to value the rights of individuals--ordinary men and women who constitute "the People"--will continue leading you to promote policies and practices whose real-world effects are contrary to your good intentions.  Remember the paving material of the road to Hell?

[jowcol]

Does the Green Party also want to ban Schoenberg?


(sorry, I'm just bored) 

Great start, but you need to add Liberalism, Mendelssohn, Pedophilia, World Religions, the mongrelization and decadence of Western Civilization since <fill in the blank>, unnatural acts with vegetables(which I believe is an unalienable right), the true nature of 'genius' and 'art', Youtube postings, and of course, the pointless zen references that offer NOTHING. 

You know, we could probably use the technology pioneered in the AI applications Liza and Parry to come up with an automatic thread generator that, starting with any post, bends a reply around a predefined set of hot buttons and hobby horses, so that we'd save a lot of time typing.  Unless  this is all a Turing test, and some of us really are automated.

[DavidRoss]

Great start, but you need to add Liberalism, Mendelssohn, Pedophilia, World Religions, the mongrelization and decadence of Western Civilization since <fill in the blank>, unnatural acts with vegetables(which I believe is an unalienable right), the true nature of 'genius' and 'art', Youtube postings, and of course, the pointless zen references that offer NOTHING. 

Please define "unnatural acts with vegetables."  (We'll leave it up to "Josquin" to rant about "the true nature of 'genius' and 'art.'")

[jowcol]

I just want to say whatever happens between myself and a head of lettuce (as long as it's of the appropriate age of consent) in a hotel room, (with soft lighting, champagne on ice, and the soothing strains of Schoenberg on the stereo)  is my own business

I'm hoping that the GREEN party would understand my lifestyle choice...

[greg]

I just want to say whatever happens between myself and a head of lettuce (as long as it's of the appropriate age of consent) in a hotel room, (with soft lighting, champagne on ice, and the soothing strains of Schoenberg on the stereo)  is my own business

I'm hoping that the GREEN party would understand my lifestyle choice...

lol 

[DavidRoss]

I just want to say whatever happens between myself and a head of lettuce (as long as it's of the appropriate age of consent) in a hotel room, (with soft lighting, champagne on ice, and the soothing strains of Schoenberg on the stereo)  is my own business

I'm hoping that the GREEN party would understand my lifestyle choice...

Brings to mind Gene Wilder in Woody Allen's "Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex*
*but were afraid to ask"

[The new erato]

They are even available on-demand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvFoSI5VN8

[jowcol]

Brings to mind Gene Wilder in Woody Allen's "Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex*
*but were afraid to ask"

"I am NOT fondling my lamb's wool sweater!"   


Actually- this whole riff was stolen from the Bloom County Comic Strip, where a shocking expose of Bill The Cat was subtitled:  "Nazi! Liberal! Vegesexual!"  With all of the names and labels being tossed around, it seemed appropos.

[knight66]

Please define "unnatural acts with vegetables." 

According to my son.....eating them.

Mike

[Superhorn]

   As a former horn player,I have been guilty of unnatural acts with a natural horn.

Also, P.D.Q. Bach wrote the immortal opera "Hansel  and Gretel
and Ted and Alice," an opera in one unnatural act.




                                                   




                                 

[DavidRoss]

According to my son.....eating them.

I imagine Dr. Evil's truculent teen-aged son, Scott, resisting Dr. Evil's admonition to eat his vegetables:  "Oh, yeah?  Vegetables have rights, too, you know!"  (Especially if they're grown from seed genetically engineered by Monsanto...well, at least Monsanto has rights, if not the vegetables, nor those poor farmers and consumers who can't afford to pay off politicians and attorneys to assure that their interests are supported by the government.)

[jowcol]

I imagine Dr. Evil's truculent teen-aged son, Scott, resisting Dr. Evil's admonition to eat his vegetables:  "Oh, yeah?  Vegetables have rights, too, you know!"  (Especially if they're grown from seed genetically engineered by Monsanto...well, at least Monsanto has rights, if not the vegetables, nor those poor farmers and consumers who can't afford to pay off politicians and attorneys to assure that their interests are supported by the government.)

And what are the moral implications, then, of eating BABY carrots?  I think the Pedophilia discussion needs to address what happens to juvenile agricultural products....

[drogulus]

Lincoln was wrong about the capacities of the different races.

Was he?

      He was quite wrong to think that there was something (some "essence") about race that determined the abilities of races. Today we can chalk up the differences to individual variation within rough ethnic subgroups. These groups don't differ that much, and you may be surprised to find that, for example, most American blacks are overwhelmingly European at the genetic level, as are most Jews who trace their background in that direction. Many other Jews are "essentially" Arabs, in the sense that they are as entitled to be called that by heritage as the people who do call themselves that. Arab Jews don't like this in many cases, maintaining that they are separate, and have a different essence.

     Genetic inheritance is very far from an essence, though. It blends genomes and spits out something new in every generation, which make essences impossible. Get it? There is no such thing as racial purity and there never was. It's a stupid idea in the Josquin form and just as stupid in the mirror form that Saul rants about. Ethnic superiority, to the extent that there is anything at all behind it, is a matter of culture, with a tiny speck of genetic variation thrown in. Is there much reason to found an ideology based on susceptibility to certain diseases? I don't think so.

     The racists have to do this though, since culturally anyone can be anything they want. German Jews were culturally German, which got many of them killed because they couldn't bear to leave their beloved homeland. How's that for essence, eh? Who was more German, the ultra-assimilated German Jews or the Austrian misfit who killed most of them? Does the question even make sense with no stable ground rules for answering it? Is it relevant that Hitler may have had "Jewish" blood? Only for appreciators of irony and for racists, in very different ways, of course.

[DavidRoss]

Stalin's Russia and Mao's China are primary examples of the consequences of concentrating power in the hands of an elite.  Our society is flirting with the tipping point, and the way to such ruthlessness is not nearly as long as you imagine.  We have a plurality that is willing to enslave their own children for the sake of false promises and pretty fantasies.  What happens when the system breaks?  The current recession--a consequence of liberal meddling with traditional prudent lending practice during the '90s--is but a hint of what lies in store for us if we keep marching blindly down the garden path.  Step back and get the long view of the historical forces at play...we live in interesting times, indeed!

Since you apparently don't take truth seriously in small matters . . . .

I appreciate your effort at irony.    I'm curious, however, about which assertion you doubt.  Burdening our children and grandchildren with $70 trillion of debt for unfunded entitlements is sheer slavery, whether or not it's palatable to "Progressive" consciences to recognize that painful fact.

Since that's so obvious, as were the consequences of "Progressive" ideology in Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, etc., I presume it's the statement about the cause of today's economic meltdown that you question.  If you don't understand the relationship between financial institutions' ownership of key politicians, the expanded role of GSEs like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the breakdown of traditionally prudent credit requirements and mortgage securitization, the subprime mortgage crisis, and the consequences for the global financial system, then you are likely to be duped again by bloviating politicos' endless stream of irresponsible and duplicitous hot air.  For starters, see:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2009/07/22/economic_crisis_part_one
and
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1113888
and for kicks, tune to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

[Saul]

In the USA children are NOT safe from pedophiles as we treat them as criminals which means as soon as they serve their sentence they are released from prison.  Time DOES NOT cure pedophiles, even the government knows this and requires them to register as sex offenders when released from Prison. 

71 dB's proposal, which is indeed a Progressive one would keep society's children SAFE from pedophiles as they would NEVER be around children unless they are cured. 

If you go back and read 71 dB's and my original posts you would see he advocates pedophiles being institutionalized until and only if they are cured.  If they are NOT cured they would be institutionalized for life.  Ideally would-be pedophiles would seek treatment before they ever act on their urges. 

Personally I prefer 71 dB's option of keeping pedophiles away from children until they are actually cured.  Out current system allowing pedophiles back on the streets after they serve their sentence often with no therapy just sucks and makes an unsafe environment for children. 

I cannot understand people hating Progessive ideas so much they would rather live in a violent unsafe world.

Long live the Green Party, and Progressives who would keep the world a safe place to raise children without fear, clean air to breath, clean water to drink, with no one going to bed hungry and a livable wage for all!

Jesus Christ was a Progressive.     He preached to love your enemies, to love the sinner but not the sin, to feed the poor and make the world a better place.

Teresa,

Time  spend behind bars by criminals is actually a great cure for many things for it can be a tool for contemplation, and remorse and an opportunity to repent one's sins.

It also keeps the streets clean from these vicious criminals who would do enormous harm had they been free to roam unhindered.

But the ultimate question remains:

How do we keep people from committing crimes in the first place?

Physiatrists, therapists and psychologists?

No they don't have the answers at all, for they are only equipped with their human created opinions on how to solve the problem.

How about Progressives and Liberals?

Absolutely not, because they will implement their own self created human solutions, and laws, and regulations based on secular technical evaluations, void of a clear Moral world Outlook.

And we arrive again to the Zenith of the entire war that exists here.

The Liberals, and the Progressives want to replace Biblical Morality with their own version of Morality.
And as I explained time and again, this ultimate aim of theirs will utterly and categorically fail, as it failed countless times previously by all secular governments and dictatorships.

Teresa, I really hope that one day you'll wake up and see the glaring lies that Progressivism and Liberalism are. Don't forget that many people in the past had great idealistic feelings who were willing to lay down their lives for their Ideals, but later on discovered many times too late, that their quest was a total darkness and backwardness.

[Teresa]

Teresa,

Time  spend behind bars by criminals is actually a great cure for many things for it can be a tool for contemplation, and remorse and an opportunity to repent one's sins.

It also keeps the streets clean from these vicious criminals who would do enormous harm had they been free to roam unhindered.

But the ultimate question remains:

How do we keep people from committing crimes in the first place?

Physiatrists, therapists and psychologists?

No they don't have the answers at all, for they are only equipped with their human created opinions on how to solve the problem.

How about Progressives and Liberals?

Absolutely not, because they will implement their own self created human solutions, and laws, and regulations based on secular technical evaluations, void of a clear Moral world Outlook.

And we arrive again to the Zenith of the entire war that exists here.

The Liberals, and the Progressives want to replace Biblical Morality with their own version of Morality.
And as I explained time and again, this ultimate aim of theirs will utterly and categorically fail, as it failed countless times previously by all secular governments and dictatorships.

Teresa, I really hope that one day you'll wake up and see the glaring lies that Progressivism and Liberalism are. Don't forget that many people in the past had great idealistic feelings who were willing to lay down their lives for their Ideals, but later on discovered many times too late, that their quest was a total darkness and backwardness.

Saul, first off Progressives would not let pedophiles roam society unhindered as they are now allowed to do after they serve their criminal sentence.  No, they would not be allowed back into society or near children UNTIL they are CURED.  If they are NEVER cured they would remain institutionalized for LIFE.   Thus Children will be a millions times safer than they are now.

Second you may be right about Liberals, but you fail to understand Progressives even a tiny small amount.  Progressives are more different than Liberals are to Conservatives. 

In the grossest simplest terms here is how the different ideologies handle problems that arise with it's citizenry.

Conservatives: Ignore the problem, the market will work itself out.

Liberals: Spend money to lessen the effects of the problem.

Progressives: Get to the root of the problem and fix it.

Thus Conservatives allow suffering, often very severe while the market works itself out.  Liberals never fix the problem but just spend more and more money on it's increasing effects upon it's citizens.  Only Progressive actually get to the cause of the problem, thus eliminating it so it is solved for good.

As I said Jesus Christ was a Progressive.  His disciples gave up all their worldly possessions, they went forth to spread the good word, to heal the sick and to feed the poor.  To let everyone (not just Jews) know that God loves them.  When he said, everyone he meant everyone one, remember Mary Magdalene was a prostitute and the man hanging on the cross next to him was murderer and a thief.  He forgave them both and told them both that God loves them.
 
Progressive and Religious

Progressive Religion

Spiritual Progressives

There is only ONE current political ideology that honors religions of all people and they are Progressives.

Also do not forget the Republicans and to a lesser degree Democrats are in bed with the RICH and CORRUPT POWER FORCES in American.  Only third parties are free of this Godless corruption. 

The Rich man in this bible parable would today be a Republican:

Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

He cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.'

"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

He said, 'I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torment.'

"But Abraham said to him,
'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.'

"He said, 'No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

"He said to him, 'If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.'

Since you do not understand Progressives, nor the non-judgmental love they have for their fellow man, taught to us by that great prophet and son of God, Jesus Christ, it perhaps might be better for your immortal soul if you quite persecuting them.

[Saul]

Teresa,

I will talk to you here openly about the political and secular issues that we disagree, but about the religious things we can correspond with pms separately, because the site in general wants to keep religious discussion here to a minimum.

Hope you can understand this.