Second-Tier English Symphonies

[J]

Imagine someone seeking mature familiarity with the English symphony (as listener rather than student), -
something between initiatory and comprehensive knowledge.  A seasoned relationship, therefore, but one
falling somewhat short of intimacy or mastery.

What level of immersion in or breadth of exposure to the accumulated tradition would be necessary to
achieve such a goal?

To my mind, the "first-tier" or foundational composers of English symphonism (established by some combination
of the quality, popularity, scope, and "English essence" of their work) are Edward Elgar, Ralph Vaughan Williams,
Arnold Bax, E.J. Moeran, Edmund Rubbra, William Walton, & Malcolm Arnold, - the whole body of whose symphonies
in each case any aspirant would need to cultivate a close acquaintance with as part of their quest.

But what of the vast "second-tier" of English symphonies, - by those composers whose symphonic ouvre may lack the "massed force" of the major figures but have yet produced individual works of eminencej and power?
Is there any consensus as to which among this large body are the most important, distinctive, and likeable, -
those symphonies which as single efforts and by some criteria rival or approach the very best work of the canonical seven?

Name up to a dozen or so symphonies (no more than one per composer) in this category that no listener could afford to overlook and yet still claim a "mature familiarity" with the tradition.

[drogulus]

    I'd add 2 by Britten to your top tier, the Sinfonia da Requiem and the Cello Symphony.

[Sid]

I'd question whether Moeran or Arnold were of the first rank like the others. They composed in quite outdated styles. What about ditching them from the "top" list and adding someone like Peter Maxwell-Davies? I'm only stirring, but no doubt some people here will get my drift - lists like this are usually about second rank dead composers, rather than the excellent ones that we still have in our midst...

[(poco) Sforzando]

"Second-Tier English Symphonies"

Sounds like a tautology.   

[Dax]

I'd question whether Moeran or Arnold were of the first rank like the others.

There are those of us, on the other hand, who would rank Arnold pretty near the top of the bunch, along with Bax!

[Teresa]

There are those of us, on the other hand, who would rank Arnold pretty near the top of the bunch, along with Bax!

I agree 100%, in my book not only is Malcolm Arnold a top tier English composer but a top tier composer period.  The Symphonies are excellent but to really experience the glory of Malcolm Arnold one MUST experience the magnificent Tam O' Shanter, his English, Irish, Scottish and Cornish Dances, his many, many wonderful overtures and his film music.  Malcolm Arnold rules big time!   

Unlike Sid I do not believe his music is not outdated in the least.  Arnold's music does have Jazz and sometimes even Pop/Rock influences.  In his A Commonwealth Christmas Overture, not only is there a Caribbean band but also an electric guitar. 

Arnold's "Symphony No. 4 was commissioned by the BBC, completed in 1960, following the Notting Hill race-riots which perhaps influenced scoring for the symphony.  It  includes Caribbean instruments (and rhythms as well):  marimba, bongos and tom-toms, all used in a rather menacing way. The first of the four movements has violent outbursts of brass and percussion with extensive interplay between instrumental clusters. The movement includes a  rather sad "pop" tune that appears several times, each time with different orchestration.  A "pop" tune usually consists of 32 bars, but this one has only 31, an effect that puzzled many listeners.  This movement ends with a huge brass outburst which to me is reminiscent of West Side Story. A short, gossamer  scherzo follows, all pianissimo except for the fortissimo last chord,  leading to one Arnold's most imaginative achievements, a 13:03 Andante (for Hickox; Handley takes but 11:45). Christopher Palmer's notes in the Hickox Chandos recording describe  the movement  perfectly: "...slow, sensual sexy, steamy, sultry -- and the atmosphere is trance-like, almost hypnotic. Where are we? In a Turkish Bath, opium den (if they still exist) or night-club, very late at night?"  It's an incredible listening experience which sets an exotic  mood totally devastated by the fourth and final movement.  This begins  with a fugue, continues with marches, dissonance, more Caribbean percussion, bells and ending in a cataclysmic  blaze of percussion. A remarkable symphony!" quote from SIR MALCOLM ARNOLD  AND HIS NINE SYMPHONIES   

[mc ukrneal]

I have no idea how to differentiate symphonies among the tiers as it really depends on the criteria. Thus, I will link you to a list of symphonic works to explore by English composers: http://www.musicweb-international.com/British_Symphonies_on_CD/index.htm

I would draw your attention to a few composers I enjoy or am currently exploring (excluding the ones you already listed):
Granville Bantock: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,401.0.html] (good complete series on Hyperion, a must in my opinion)
Charles Stanford: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,990.0.html (Chandos have a complete survey)
William Wallace: Creation symphony on Hyperion
Sir Edward German: First or Second symphony (well crafted, off the beated track)
William Sterndale Bennett: Enjoyable disc with other orchestal works on Lyrita
Hubert Parry: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,980.0.html (complete series on Chandos)
Alice Mary Smith: Disc on Chandos

A couple other guys of interest (that I don't know well, but you may see some recent posts on here):
HAVERGAL BRIAN
GEORGE LLOYD

Hope some of this is helpful...

[Klaatu]

"Second-Tier English Symphonies"

Sounds like a tautology.   

Oooooh! Retract those claws, Sforzando! 

Alwyn's 5th Symphony "Hydriotaphia" would certainly be on my list.

So would Havergal Brian's 6th, 10th and 16th. (Yes, I know that's more than one per composer!)

And Parry's 4th and 5th

Those are just off the top of my head - more to follow......

[Lethevich]

Richard Arnell's cycle will always be an obscure one, but so far I find it both distinctive and interesting - n.b. I have only heard nos. 1, 3 and 6. I used to consider the 3rd too sprawling for its own good, but I was simply lacking patience. There are plenty of diverse ideas, but the composer simply choses to express them on a large scale. The 6th symphony is a wonderfully craggy construct, very compact with three short opening movements and a middling short finale, it is somewhat more harmonically advanced than many of his generation, but not quite as far as Alwyn - it retains a fully tonal reference, but does not develop in a conventional melodic manner.

Cyril Scott I have yet to really absorb, but he wrote some very strong music and four symphonies. His style is certainly individual, a perculiar mix of post-Stanford and Debussy.

Edit: Also, I hate to push my pet interests here because I am unsure whether his music is high quality enough to include, but Arnold Cooke represents a distinctive and not particularly widely followed (in England) school of composition. He follows Hindemith and wrote a mildly spikey, but mostly lyrical and very clearly written and orchestrated fusion of Romantic and neoclassical music. If you wish to see how this could be further developed, try Lennox Berkely (who wrote at least 3 symphonies, the third of which I find particularly interesting). Another pet interest is Robert Simpson, but I think his very mention will annoy some, given how vocal his fans are

Rawsthorne is another individual figure, whose symphonies are immaculately crafted and of a perfect length. They always end at just the right time, leaving the listener with the impression of a fertile mind and a sense of restraint. The music itself is of the early-mid 20th century "hell-raiser" school - music written as if to scare his grandmother. While it is tame compared to continental European standards, in England he had some stature as a "modernist" composer for a while. Never atonal, but as tough and rugged as it gets.

[springrite]

I would certainly put Alwyn and Brian on the top tier!

[Guido]

Brian certainly needs to be added to the top tier.

[Lethevich]

Name up to a dozen or so symphonies (no more than one per composer) in this category that no listener could afford to overlook and yet still claim a "mature familiarity" with the tradition.

Sorry, I totally failed to read this part The "familiarity" part is difficult, because beyond the well-known composers (Bax, Moeran, etc), there actually aren't that many composers working in this similar Romantic/folksy/Sibelian hybrid style. Some single works of note by other composers that one could do well to hear:

Simpson - Symphony No.9
Brian - Symphony No.6 (or 8 )
Rawsthorne - Symphony No.2 or 3 (although all three are so consistent, it doesn't matter which)
Dyson - Symphony in G (if you like the Moeran symphony in particular, try this)
Lloyd - Symphony No.4
Goossens - Symphony No.1 or 2 (both firmly in "the tradition")
Harty - An Irish Symphony (an enjoyable work, somewhat one-upping Stanford in terms of atmosphere)
Bantock - A Celtic Symphony (a must-listen for Bax fans, but not only them)
Boughton - Symphony No.3 (this one only just "clicked" for me - I still find it slightly difficult, but it can be so beautiful)

Edit: Having re-listened to the Harty, I retract it - it's just not good enough.

[Klaatu]

How about Tippett?

I remember hearing all four symphonies a few years ago, and being impressed by 1 and 4 (the latter is a "birth-to-death" piece starting and ending with a wind-machine symbolising the first and last breath: a clever touch.)

[J]

Someone willing to play, and lay their cards on the table.  Thank-you.

The impressionistic reflections are fine, - but say I'm a novice, bewildered by the profligacy of English symphonies out there but wanting to learn, and need specific help.  I'm spending 4 weeks in the country and have packed CD's of the complete symphonies of Elgar, Vaughan Williams, etc. (the seven "first-tier" composers I listed) but want to add a dozen more symphonies to round out my listening that will vie with the best work of the greats. What should I take?

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
11. ?
12. ?

Sorry, I totally failed to read this part The "familiarity" part is difficult, because beyond the well-known composers (Bax, Moeran, etc), there actually aren't that many composers working in this similar Romantic/folksy/Sibelian hybrid style. Some single works of note by other composers that one could do well to hear:

Simpson - Symphony No.9
Brian - Symphony No.6 (or 8 )
Rawsthorne - Symphony No.2 or 3 (although all three are so consistent, it doesn't matter which)
Dyson - Symphony in G (if you like the Moeran symphony in particular, try this)
Lloyd - Symphony No.4
Goossens - Symphony No.1 or 2 (both firmly in "the tradition")
Harty - An Irish Symphony (an enjoyable work, somewhat one-upping Stanford in terms of atmosphere)
Bantock - A Celtic Symphony (a must-listen for Bax fans, but not only them)
Boughton - Symphony No.3 (this one only just "clicked" for me - I still find it slightly difficult, but it can be so beautiful)

Edit: Having re-listened to the Harty, I retract it - it's just not good enough.

[Guido]

Someone willing to play, and lay their cards on the table.  Thank-you.

The impressionistic reflections are fine, - but say I'm a novice, bewildered by the profligacy of English
symphonies out there but wanting to learn, and need specific help.  I'm spending 4 weeks in the country and have packed CD's of the complete symphonies of Elgar, Vaughan Williams, etc. (the seven "first-tier" composers
I listed) but want to add a dozen more symphonies to round out my listening that will vie with the best work of the greats. What should I take?

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
11. ?
12. ?

Ok well definitely start with at least one Brian Symphony - he composed 32 Symphonies between 1919 and 1938, 21 of which after the age of 80. An extraordinary figure. No.1 "the Gothic" is one of the grandest and greatest symphonies ever composed. I adore numbers 8 and 10 too, though there are many many highlights in this cycle.

Rawsthorne - definitely another good recommendation - thorny works but rewarding I think, even if they take a long time to get to know, and even longer to love! There's an excellent Naxos disc with all three on it.

Tippett's four are another good place to go.

Britten's cello symphony is really a concerto, but is magnificent, and the Spring Symphony and Sinfonia Da Requiem are both superb.

So I don't really know what you mean by canonical seven - the three pieces by Britten for instance are all played orders of magnitude more times than the Arnold symphonies. And yes if Arnold is there, then Simpson should be too. And Brian as many have said.

1. Rawsthorne no.1,2,3 (all on the same Naxos disc)
2. Brian 1
3. Brian 8
4. Britten Cello Symphony
5. Britten Sinfonia da Requiem


Then whatever recommendations you get for ones by Simpson and Tippett - I don't know the whole cycle of each very well but like no.9 and no.3 very much respectively.

Hodinnott and Fricker are also very interesting though I'm not sure how much is available at the moment.

AAd You should probably hear Bliss' Colour Symphony which I personally don't love, but many here do.

Where is Dundonell when you need him? Why hasn't he posted here in so long?

[mc ukrneal]

Someone willing to play, and lay their cards on the table.  Thank-you.

The impressionistic reflections are fine, - but say I'm a novice, bewildered by the profligacy of English symphonies out there but wanting to learn, and need specific help.  I'm spending 4 weeks in the country and have packed CD's of the complete symphonies of Elgar, Vaughan Williams, etc. (the seven "first-tier" composers I listed) but want to add a dozen more symphonies to round out my listening that will vie with the best work of the greats. What should I take?

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
11. ?
12. ?

If you made me pick symphonies like this 9and only symphonies), I would pick:
1-3. Bantock 3 Symphonies
4. William Wallace Symphony
5. A disc of Boyce symphonies (a different period)
6. Stanford 3rd
7. Stanford 4th
8. Stanford 5th or 7th
Undecided after that.

But there are some orchestral pieces that I would take above nearly all of the above listed (though they are not symphonies), including:
1. Holst the Planets
2. Holst Military Suites for Band
3. Stanford Irish Rhapsodies
4. Disc of British Light Music (Hyperion have a great series of this: 4 discs in total)
5. Eric Coates - one disc I like of various pieces is with Gamba conducting the BBC on Chandos
6. Purcell - not sure what off the top of my head , but he would also be from a different period

[Lethevich]

Feel free to poke holes in this list, everyone

1. Bantock - Celtic Symphony (or the Hebridean Symphony)
2. Brian - Symphony No.7
3. Bliss - A Colour Symphony
4. Parry - Symphony No.3 (or No.5)
5. Boughton - Symphony No.3
6. Dyson - Symphony in G
7. Rawsthorne - Symphony No.2 (the Naxos CD includes all 3)*
8. Alwyn - Symphony No.3*
9. Leighton - Symphony for strings
10. Scott - Symphony No.3
11. Simpson - Symphony No.9
12. Lloyd - Symphony No.4

*These ones might be out of the question if, as you mention, you are not looking for slightly advanced tonality such as Simpson.

Also, while Britten is not a symphonist in the conventional sense, the Sinfonia da Requiem should be heard if you have yet to encounter it. I'll skip the Goossens recommendation because the recordings are very expensive (ABC Classics).

I agree with ukrneal that I would list a lot of major orchestral works as having greater importance or musical interest than some of these symphonies.

[Dax]

Edit: Having re-listened to the Harty, I retract it - it's just not good enough.

And he's not English . . .

[Lethevich]

And he's not English . . .

Oh, sorry - I'm used to these threads being about UK musicians.

I think that Tippett should be on the list but I don't much care for his symphonies so I cannot really comment on them, plus I am not sure whether J would like them.

[jowcol]

Lethe is right about the Alwyn 3-- I adore it!

In my own mental ranking, I'd have to put the Moeran Symphony in the top tier.

Sidney Bate's 3rd and Ruth Gipps #4 are classics and must haves, IMO.    Arnell is definitely in contention.