Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Franco]

What do you think of the Beethoven Symphony Cycle (so far released on individual disks with two each, except for the 9th, which is all by itself) by Paavo Jarvi and Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie (German Chamber Orchestra)?

Not sure if it is HIP enough for this thread - but, despite searching in several ways, I couldn't find a general Beethoven Symphony cycle thread.  There must be one, right?

[prémont]

I also like Weil's recordings of syms. 5 and 6.  I couldn't imagine anyone finding them disagreeable, but PerfectWagnerite proves me wrong.

No. not disagreeable, but a bit dull. I want my LvB played with more balls.

[Clever Hans]

It seems Jarvi is going for maximum impact, by any means necessary, which is entirely appropriate for Beethoven, in my opinion.

[DarkAngel]

Copy-and-pasting this over from the Classical Chat Thread...

BEETHOVEN | Symphony No 7

Did an audition of three recordings tonight. First I did back-to-back movement-by-movement plays of John Eliot Gardiner and [/b]Christopher Hogwood[/b], first playing Gardiner's take on each movement and then Hogwood's. Kind of an interesting experience having everything repeated. Gardiner's performance is with a bigger band in much more "present" sound, but I found that, when I cranked the volume up for Hogwood, it did indeed reveal a more individual, colorfully period-instrument sound. The problem was that I also felt in Hogwood as if there was a rather rustic, rough-and-ready touch: the orchestral details that get highlighted often seem to be accidental, as if the horn player just spontaneously decided to pipe up or the oboes just felt like getting their spunk on for a minute. Gardiner's orchestra is a polished, professional group, no doubt about it. But I think my previous inclination toward Gardiner was not really a product of his life-force really so much as the fact that the recording doesn't require a volume jolt.

Now, however, I've put on a third recording of the Seventh. It is one I have championed here before, but since have gone several months without listening to it. The big question: was it anything as good as I remembered?

The answer is, unequivocally, yes. Thomas Dausgaard's recording with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra is a "HIP Hybrid" - olden stylings on modern instruments. And it is stunning. The funny thing about this recording is that after I listened to it once, back in March, it instantly adopted a mythical status in my brain. Since then I have returned each time with some skepticism, as if it can't be so, or I must have just been in a particular mood. Why the doubt? Not sure. This listen has been just as riveting as the prior ones: music-making that totally bankrupts my ability to throw adjectives at it. It is big, bold, driven, powerful, propulsive, intimate, chamber-like, immediate, it's in my room here with me; it's charming, stern, eternal, mortal, alive, fantastical, earthy, and, if I can use the word again, mythical. That's a soup of contradictions. But this performance is no soup of contradictions.

When I first posted about it here, I used a phrase that may have hinted at what I'm trying and failing spectacularly to say. Here it is: listening to this Dausgaard recording of the Beethoven Seventh, I really feel not merely as if I am listening to this music for the first time - but as if it is being played for the first time.

The timpani is pounding out the big drum rolls in the third movement trio right now. And now the bass' last line before the scherzo explodes back onto the scene - strictly in tempo. This music is alive. Wow.

DISCLAIMER: This was written after midnight, so it may contain fancies and flights of purple prose.

The Dausgaard/Simax set is my very favorite HIP Beethoven set, but it is so expensive spread out over 10 Cds that I never usually mention it.........just recently completed with release of the 9th.

If there is ever a reduced price boxset released this will become top recommendation and the HIP set by which I measure all others.

[DarkAngel]

Two more excellent HIP sets have now been completed with the release of 9ths by Dausgaard/Simax and Jarvi/RCA........still have not purchased Jarvi 9th, but that will happen very soon

Since I have purchased all individual CDs I suspect chances are good I will now suffer the buyers remorse that occurs when reduced price boxset is eventually released for a fraction of the cost of my purchase price.......

I see Amazon now has many of the Dausgaard set in MP3 format for much less......

[Coopmv]

Quoting from the quote DA used 2 posts ago, "... but I found that, when I cranked the volume up for Hogwood, it did indeed reveal a more individual, colorfully period-instrument sound."

This observation is clearly not illusory, as the AAM under Hogwood that recorded the HIP Beethoven had some of the best period violinists such as Monica Huggett and Catherine MacKintosh in its rank.  It probably had a higher level of virtuosity and more polished performance than Gardiner's Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique ...

BTW, I did enjoy that set, which I bought before I bought the following set by Sir Colin.  The sets by Gunter Wand and Andre Cluytens will be next.  One can never have too many Beethoven cycles by first-rate conductors, can he?   

[DavidRoss]

No. not disagreeable, but a bit dull. I want my LvB played with more balls.

If Beethoven's music reflects the essential character of the man, then one of the last things it should be is "polite."

From Coop's quote of DA's quote of Brian's post on another thread:

...first playing Gardiner's take on each movement and then Hogwood's. Kind of an interesting experience having everything repeated. Gardiner's performance is with a bigger band in much more "present" sound, but I found that, when I cranked the volume up for Hogwood, it did indeed reveal a more individual, colorfully period-instrument sound. The problem was that I also felt in Hogwood as if there was a rather rustic, rough-and-ready touch: the orchestral details that get highlighted often seem to be accidental, as if the horn player just spontaneously decided to pipe up or the oboes just felt like getting their spunk on for a minute. Gardiner's orchestra is a polished, professional group, no doubt about it.

Consistent with my own impressions.  Love of the "more individual, colorfully period-instrument sound" is but one of the reasons I especially enjoy Brüggen's cycle.  Another is the sometimes "raucous" character I find missing in Gardiner's comparatively "polite" set.

[karlhenning]

Oboes getting their spunk on; I wonder why we're allowing it . . . .

[George]

No. not disagreeable, but a bit dull. I want my LvB played with more balls.

I fully agree and Beethoven had the biggest balls of them all!

[jlaurson]

What do you think of the Beethoven Symphony Cycle (so far released on individual disks with two each, except for the 9th, which is all by itself) by Paavo Jarvi and Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie (German Chamber Orchestra)?

Not sure if it is HIP enough for this thread - but, despite searching in several ways, I couldn't find a general Beethoven Symphony cycle thread.  There must be one, right?

PJ's cycle now contains my favorite 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If any Beethoven ever justified use of the un-word "impactfull" (note: NO review ever, ever, ever does. This is one of the most disgusting 'word'-creations ever to have soiled paper and computer monitors), it would be P.Jaervi's.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1754 - 2 & 6
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1409 - 3 & 8

I've not yet listened to the 7th and 5th all that much... but I know I didn't dislike any of his... even if I would not immediately rank them among "the best I've heard".
Osmo Vanska's 4th remains unchallenged, ditto Abbado's 9th (BPh, Sony, Salzburg), ditto Barenboim's 6th (which in any case can't be compared to Jaervi's completely different take on the work.)

[DarkAngel]

PJ's cycle now contains my favorite 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If any Beethoven ever justified use of the un-word "impactfull" (note: NO review ever, ever, ever does. This is one of the most disgusting 'word'-creations ever to have soiled paper and computer monitors), it would be P.Jaervi's.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1754 - 2 & 6
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1409 - 3 & 8

I've not yet listened to the 7th and 5th all that much... but I know I didn't dislike any of his... even if I would not immediately rank them among "the best I've heard".
Osmo Vanska's 4th remains unchallenged, ditto Abbado's 9th (BPh, Sony, Salzburg), ditto Barenboim's 6th (which in any case can't be compared to Jaervi's completely different take on the work.)

Jens interesting that your favorite Beethoven performances include "both" new Pavo Jarvi and new Vanska, Barenboim since for me they are yin/yang.......opposing views

The Vanska, Barenboim being modern updated versions of the classic 1960s, 1970s elegant polished large tradtional orchestra sound while Jarvi's smaller forces with fleet clarified tones/textures are definitely in the hybrid HIP camp.........

[jlaurson]

Jens interesting that your favorite Beethoven performances include "both" new Pavo Jarvi and new Vanska, Barenboim since for me they are yin/yang.......opposing views

The Vanska, Barenboim being modern updated versions of the classic 1960s, 1970s elegant polished large tradtional orchestra sound while Jarvi's smaller forces with fleet clarified tones/textures are definitely in the hybrid HIP camp.........

For obvious (well, to me, at least) reasons, I think Vanska & Jaervi are closer together than Vanska & Barenboim. Barenboim isn't, to my ears, an updated 60s, 70s sound but an updated 40s sound. Vanska is the modern version of a 60s Karajan (who is COMPLETELY mis-thought off by everyone who hasn't listened to it recently), which is tight, fast, clear, but 'symphonic'. Jaervi... well, as you say: smaller forces that rubs shoulders with SOME HIP-sters. (But not, for example, Brueggen, who is closer to Barenboim than Vanska (much less Jaervi) in many aspects.

Beethoven-greatness, in any case, is not, should not, cannot be limited to any particular style.

[DarkAngel]

Beethoven-greatness, in any case, is not, should not, cannot be limited to any particular style.

Indeed.........as much as I love the HIP versions I will admit the traditional style performances (Vanska, Karajan etc) sometimes work better in symphonies 6,9 just because of the type of sound that serves them best

[DarkAngel]

Vanska is the modern version of a 60s Karajan (who is COMPLETELY mis-thought off by everyone who hasn't listened to it recently), which is tight, fast, clear, but 'symphonic'. Jaervi... well, as you say: smaller forces that rubs shoulders with SOME HIP-sters. (But not, for example, Brueggen, who is closer to Barenboim than Vanska (much less Jaervi) in many aspects.

That describes for me HVK's 1970's BPO/DG Beethoven set where he has noticeably faster leaner tempos in the outer movements compared to the 1960s set

[DavidW]

BTW, I did enjoy that set, which I bought before I bought the following set by Sir Colin.  The sets by Gunter Wand and Andre Cluytens will be next.  One can never have too many Beethoven cycles by first-rate conductors, can he?   

Cluytens is remarkable if you don't mind older sound, you'll love it!  He's very Monteux/Szell/Toscanini lean style and swift but not race to the punchline (like HIPsters).  Just classical in approach.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm just curious when the "Beethoven Symphonies HIP" thread got hijacked by the traditionalists. Surely there are 50 or 60 threads available to post on traditional approaches? Seems like, any way.

That said, I think Hogwood is the HIPpest sound, the biggest PIon of all. I know many don't care for that cycle, but that's OK. Other than my (major) quibble with his 9th, the Turkish March being done just wrongly, ala Norrington 1, I am very find of it all. Possibly not the best in anything, but overall the most satisfactory to me.



----------------
Listening to:
Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwood - Op 125 Symphony in d #9 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato

[DarkAngel]

Cluytens is remarkable if you don't mind older sound, you'll love it!  He's very Monteux/Szell/Toscanini lean style and swift but not race to the punchline (like HIPsters).  Just classical in approach.

Toscanini not HIP but still......
Toscanini/RCA 1950s studio set to this day has some of the fastest recorded tempos of any Beethoven set, although not HIP in instruments or playing practice the swift lean tempos in some ways lay ground work for Hogwood & Norrington 30+ years later, the rest is history. I think any HIP Beethoven fan (like myself) should definitely own the Toscanini/RCA boxset for some historical perspective, unique style and fascinating stuff that was perhaps way ahead of its time

[Bulldog]

I'm just curious when the "Beethoven Symphonies HIP" thread got hijacked by the traditionalists. Surely there are 50 or 60 threads available to post on traditional approaches? Seems like, any way.

Yes, somewhat hijacked.  We have members who consider P. Jarvi's cycle HIP, so it isn't a long distance to start talking about a Colin Davis cycle.  It used to be that period instruments were a must for HIP to be cited; those days are long gone.  Perhaps a better title for this thread would have been "Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments".

[DarkAngel]

That said, I think Hogwood is the HIPpest sound, the biggest PIon of all. I know many don't care for that cycle, but that's OK. Other than my (major) quibble with his 9th, the Turkish March being done just wrongly, ala Norrington 1, I am very find of it all. Possibly not the best in anything, but overall the most satisfactory to me

The value of Hogwood/Lyre (besides being very first true HIP set) is that AAM in mid 1980's was an incredible collection of individual talent (as Coop often mentions) and the string tone is unique and instantly recoginzable. Also brass and woodwinds are more HIP sounding than the later 1990's hybrid sets that followed like Gardiner etc which tended to slightly smooth out these tones and loose the unique character.

I love to listen to Hogwood from time to time, holds up a bit better over time than Norrington/EMI.......

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, somewhat hijacked.  We have members who consider P. Jarvi's cycle HIP, so it isn't a long distance to start talking about a Colin Davis cycle.  It used to be that period instruments were a must for HIP to be cited; those days are long gone.  Perhaps a better title for this thread would have been "Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments".

'fraid you're right, Bullguy. Back when I had that thread going on the 9th, I had broken things down into traditional, HIP/PI, and modern instruments with a HIP approach. As far as the 9th goes, you can go back to the mid-80's and there is a very nice version by the Northern Sinfonia / Hickox (which he did before Collegium Musicum 90 came along) that stands as more or less the progenitor of that third category. They did the whole cycle but I haven't heard the rest.

I still have a hard time bringing all these traditional guys into the HIP camp just because they played fast...