An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for offering your opinion.

[Leo K.]

Just in case you are at all in earnest . . . that is not the quarrel here; the quarrel is film cues which are bald recycling of numbers from the literature.  The redress would not be, paying those composers' estates damages, but doing his own work.

; )

Ah, I see, I had the wrong idea

[North Star]

Oh, I have to contest that for two reasons.

1. The main title music for Star Wars was a thrilling, and original, overture to one of the landmark cinematic experiences in our lifetime.

Ahemm.... Korngold....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZAZJGziFk

[Karl Henning]

Thank you, I suppose! ; )

[starrynight]

My post was in response to the idea that Holst ought naturally to be thrilled that Williams adapted his music, or at least, heavily incorporated elements from it, for a popular movie. 

However, if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used, then all the more is it reasonable to assume Holst might not be pleased at Williams' appropriation when he no choice in the matter.

Not all composers have the ego of an Igor Stravinsky.

[mc ukrneal]

And this is backed up by his incredibly liberating & fertile musical imagination, artistic integrity ..  staggering genius/talent. Which none of these film guys (i.e. Williams) even approach or will ever come close to.

That's true. Williams is far ahead of them.

[eyeresist]

    

[mszczuj]

Ahemm.... Korngold....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZAZJGziFk

Yes! This really shows how good composer Williams is.

His main force is for me his ability to use shamelessly simple themes in this fat neoromantic orchestral sauce in which everyone else tries to navigate by infinite melodic meanders. Three notes and we are down, four notes and we are high - and seven miles away.

May be it is not great art, may be everyone can do like that - but actually Williams do it, and it works. I'm not absolutely sure if greater composers can manage it with such practical elegance.

No wonder you probably can find his motifs elsewhere - there is noway to invent two note motif. But you recognize them only beceause Williams had used them in his absolutely effective manner.

[Karl Henning]

. . . But you recognize them only beceause Williams had used them in his absolutely effective manner.

Not at all true in the case of the Holst and Stravinsky examples. Just saying.

[mszczuj]

Not at all true in the case of the Holst and Stravinsky examples. Just saying.

It was about Korngold example mainly. The 84th twist of melody of Kings Row was exactly the same as beginning sounds of Star Wars theme. So what? For another possible short main motif there is for sure some matching example of 84th twist of melody in other Hollywod film music.

But I don't know what do you mean by Stravinsky example?

[Mirror Image]

This really shows how good composer Williams is.

Give me a break. Williams is not a good composer. His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz. As I mentioned, there's some good film music out there, but I think Williams isn't a good film composer. He's just after the big bucks. There's nothing artful about his music. Give me Goldsmith and Morricone any day of the week.

[mc ukrneal]

Williams is not a good composer.

True- he is a great composer. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion

His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz.

They must have some talent. But I do agree that they are geared toward a different segment. Is there shame in this? But saying they are "targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music" - well I don't think he sits down and thinks this when he writes music. I think you are projecting something that simply is not there. I could accept criticisms about the music, but he is not exctly doing what those others are doing. And what about light music? Does you think that falls in the same category?

[71 dB]

Give me a break. Williams is not a good composer. His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz. As I mentioned, there's some good film music out there, but I think Williams isn't a good film composer. He's just after the big bucks. There's nothing artful about his music. Give me Goldsmith and Morricone any day of the week.

You give me a break! John Williams is among the greatest movie composers ever if not THE GREATEST. As a classical music composer he isn't that great but man he knows how to compose music for movies! 

American Film Institute has selected the Soundtrack of Star Wars the greatest American soundtrack ever.

[Karl Henning]

American Film Institute has selected the Soundtrack of Star Wars the greatest American soundtrack ever.

You cannot mean it.

[Mirror Image]

True- he is a great composer. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusionThey must have some talent. But I do agree that they are geared toward a different segment. Is there shame in this? But saying they are "targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music" - well I don't think he sits down and thinks this when he writes music. I think you are projecting something that simply is not there. I could accept criticisms about the music, but he is not exctly doing what those others are doing. And what about light music? Does you think that falls in the same category?

You're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.

[eyeresist]

You're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.

I think you're making the same mistake Henk is making in another thread, mistaking a moral intent that you have imposed on the composer for the music itself. "Bile" is in no way a serious artistic criticism!

[Mirror Image]

I think you're making the same mistake Henk is making in another thread, mistaking a moral intent that you have imposed on the composer for the music itself. "Bile" is in no way a serious artistic criticism!

The only mistake I have made in regards to John Williams was actually listening to one of his film scores!

[mc ukrneal]

You're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.

He composes for money and thus is completely despicable? Unless independently wealthy, this accounts for pretty much every composer in history. By light music, I was really referring more to people like Joyce, Goodwin, Wood, Coates, etc.

He's a commercial Hollywood showbiz oriented writer .. if it's light entertainment your after you can do so much better.

Yea .. but to folks who are really into music, his composing ain't that special at all. Let's be real.

Well, I am into music, and I thoroughly enjoy his work. You may not like my taste, but I find his music quite engaging. That's real.

[Mirror Image]

He composes for money and thus is completely despicable? Unless independently wealthy, this accounts for pretty much every composer in history. By light music, I was really referring more to people like Joyce, Goodwin, Wood, Coates, etc.

Williams composing for large sums of money is only one reason why I dislike him, the other reason, being the most obvious I think, is his lack of ability as a composer. There are composers that actually wrote good film music, then there's people like John Williams.

[mc ukrneal]

Williams composing for large sums of money is only one reason why I dislike him, the other reason, being the most obvious I think, is his lack of ability as a composer. There are composers that actually wrote good film music, then there's people like John Williams.

You don't like the opening to Star Wars (main theme) or the Empire Strikes Back march? How about the opening to Saving Private Ryan or the E.T. theme?