1950 to 2000

[EigenUser]

Very little music strikes me this way. Stockhausen not at all.

Nor Boulez nor Schoenberg nor Berg nor Webern for that matter.

Not sure what people are expecting to find but not finding or hoping to find but not finding. But neither dodecaphony nor serial music sounds any colder or more calculated than any other kind of music. Indeed, usually what people report as liking in Bruckner or Beethoven or Bach is the sense of control of the material that they hear. Or "hear." Sounds like calculation is a good thing if it's in music one likes but a bad thing if it's in music one doesn't like. Which means that calculation is definitely not the issue but whatever else it is that is making for liking or disliking. ("Cold" the same, just by the way. If it's Sibelius, then "cold" is high praise. If it's Babbitt, however, "cold" is a definite diss.)

Actually, that is how I am trying to convince myself that dodecaphonic music isn't actually so "calculated". Instead of writing in the context of, say, G major, the composer is writing in the context of the chromatic scale. This is my logical argument, but emotionally I'm not quite connecting to these works. I've been listening to some Stockhausen, though, because it is I think it is important for me to be aware of different music regardless of what I like. Clearly, he's a towering figure whether I like his work or not.

About Babbitt, I recently listened to his "All Set" for jazz band at the suggestion of the conductor of the orchestra I used to be in (in response to my "cold and calculated" complaint). I can't say I liked it, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I can certainly sympathize with your position as I'm not fond of serialism in general, but I am fond of a serialism that has a 'humanizing force' which is a phrase Simon Rattle used to described Berg's music in his first episode in his series on 20th Century music titled Leaving Home. I think you would come to appreciate Berg and Schoenberg. Webern is a tougher sell for me as I do enjoy a few of his works like the Passacaglia for example. I think you would appreciate Dallapiccola, too, if you would give him a chance. If you don't know his music, he's basically an Italian exponent of the Second Viennese School. He wrote excellent, and accessible, music that I think any Ligeti fan would come to appreciate. I think once you loose that human connection in serialism, you loose me. I don't like Stockhausen at all. I do, however, like Xenakis or at least a few of his works anyway. I think a little Xenakis goes a long way, but I don't think his music is devoid of emotion at all. One listen to his orchestral work Hiketides would certainly help in changing your view I think. Another composer who I think you would enjoy and writes ultra-Modern music with a lot of emotion and feeling is Lutoslawski. Are you familiar with his music?

I just saw that series a couple of weeks ago! Simon Rattle seems like such a cool guy and I found a lot of new music that I like (which is leading me to even more beyond what was presented). I still have freakin' "Agon" (the show's theme) stuck in my head, as much as I enjoy the work (yes, yes, I know it TECHNICALLY has some dodecaphonic writing in it, but it's so hard to tell and it just sounds like Stravinsky's hallmark jubilant writing to me).

I tried listening to Xenakis' "Metastasis" and a few other things and I really didn't get it, but I'll try again -- this time with what you suggest. I do like some Penderecki (both early and later styles), though, in particular "The Awakening of Jacob" and some of his 2nd symphony.

I saw an interview with Steve Reich a while back where he was talking about how he first got into classical music when a friend showed him "The Rite of Spring". He mentioned that he didn't like Brahms (along with other big names, probably Beethoven, Strauss, etc., but I forget exactly who) and I really liked how he respectfully put his dislike: "It's great music, but it's not for me". Maybe what is "not for me" right now will be "for me" in the future.

[Mirror Image]

I just saw that series a couple of weeks ago! Simon Rattle seems like such a cool guy and I found a lot of new music that I like (which is leading me to even more beyond what was presented). I still have freakin' "Agon" (the show's theme) stuck in my head, as much as I enjoy the work (yes, yes, I know it TECHNICALLY has some dodecaphonic writing in it, but it's so hard to tell and it just sounds like Stravinsky's hallmark jubilant writing to me).

I tried listening to Xenakis' "Metastasis" and a few other things and I really didn't get it, but I'll try again -- this time with what you suggest. I do like some Penderecki (both early and later styles), though, in particular "The Awakening of Jacob" and some of his 2nd symphony.

I saw an interview with Steve Reich a while back where he was talking about how he first got into classical music when a friend showed him "The Rite of Spring". He mentioned that he didn't like Brahms (along with other big names, probably Beethoven, Strauss, etc., but I forget exactly who) and I really liked how he respectfully put his dislike: "It's great music, but it's not for me". Maybe what is "not for me" right now will be "for me" in the future.

Yes, I would get along with Rattle quite fine because he and I love a lot of the same music. Anyway, do try Xenakis' Jonchaies in addition to Hiketides. Jonchaies was actually discussed not too long ago on the Xenakis composer thread. I think what this work manages to do is take the savagery of Stravinsky's Le sacre and Bartok's Mandarin and put it into blender that is ran at it's highest speed. It's quite simply one of the most barbaric pieces of music I'd ever heard (and I've heard some most rhythmically fierce music you could imagine). I played this Xenakis work back for my mom and she was in shock. I remember she was in shock when I played her some Le sacre, but her overall reaction to Jonchaies was of suspended horror...lol.

[EigenUser]

You may like some of the later work .. doesn't really eschew tonal echoes and is more openly lyrical. And if your looking to add some Art Music to collection that is of electricity - few touch him.

While I don't get it from a "musical" point of view (whatever that might mean), I was thoroughly impressed with the sound effects in his "Cosmic Pulses" for the first five minutes. Then it got old, fast. I suppose that's a start, though  . Then again, there's no way to judge this without an eight-speaker system as it was designed for.

The only time I came close to understanding electronic music was with this video. Hilarious, even though completely random.
http://www.youtube.com/v/oAny6glnfMg

[kishnevi]

Very little music strikes me this way. Stockhausen not at all.

Nor Boulez nor Schoenberg nor Berg nor Webern for that matter.

Not sure what people are expecting to find but not finding or hoping to find but not finding. But neither dodecaphony nor serial music sounds any colder or more calculated than any other kind of music. Indeed, usually what people report as liking in Bruckner or Beethoven or Bach is the sense of control of the material that they hear. Or "hear." Sounds like calculation is a good thing if it's in music one likes but a bad thing if it's in music one doesn't like. Which means that calculation is definitely not the issue but whatever else it is that is making for liking or disliking. ("Cold" the same, just by the way. If it's Sibelius, then "cold" is high praise. If it's Babbitt, however, "cold" is a definite diss.)

I'm not quite sure what I'm looking in dodecaphony and serialism myself;   But I think there are two meanings for the term "cold"--one meaning emotionally harsh (Sibelius, from your example) and one meaning emotionless, tending to intellectualism (Schoenberg for me is a good example of this meaning and Boulez another.).    Certainly a good deal of serialism  is cold only in the Sibelius sense--Ligeti might be a good name to use here.  And some 20th century music  is certainly not  cold in any sense of the word--Berg, for example.   

But perhaps the contrast could be better illustrated by pointing out that the second sense of "cold" applies not only to Boulez and Schoenberg but to a good deal of 18th century music.  Perhaps Mozart and Haydn were so good because they managed to escape the trap of being emotionless in their music.   But Dittersdorf (pulling a name at random from the 18th century hat)  can be just as cold as Boulez.  Yet because I'm used to the musical language of Dittersdorf I don't respond so negatively to it. 

Of course, the obvious next step in this chain of reasoning is the possibility that I find Boulez and Schoenberg intellectual and emotionless only because I'm not familiar with their musical language, and often enough find that dodecaphony produces mostly cacaphony.

[amw]

The only time I came close to understanding electronic music was with this video. Hilarious, even though completely random.
http://www.youtube.com/v/oAny6glnfMg

Well you could try listening to Artikulation with the score. That's apparently helped some people.

http://www.youtube.com/v/71hNl_skTZQ

http://classic-online.ru/uploads/000_notes/7400/7363.pdf

It sounds kind of like a dial-up modem, but then a lot of electronic music from that era does.

[EigenUser]

Well you could try listening to Artikulation with the score. That's apparently helped some people.

http://www.youtube.com/v/71hNl_skTZQ

http://classic-online.ru/uploads/000_notes/7400/7363.pdf

It sounds kind of like a dial-up modem, but then a lot of electronic music from that era does.

I've seen that before. It's pretty cool to see the sounds represented as pictures. Whenever a friend and I are talking about music and I mention "electronic music", they think that I'm talking about something like techno. Then I add something like "No, this is experimental classical music from the 1950s. It sounds like a dial-up modem."

[Mirror Image]

Hey EigenUser, what do you think about Lutoslawski's music?

[Ken B]

Leaving aside a lot of minimalist stuff,
And in no order

Shostakovich cello con 2, symphony 14, preludes and fugues (sneakily counting as 1)
Simpson 9
Koehne Elevator Music
Rautavaara symphony 7
Some Penderecki or other, probably sextet
Sondheim Sweeney Todd
Some Martinu or other, maybe 4
Some Poulenc, maybe Gloria

Lots more I like a lot but minimalists aside, not the period I listen to most or know best.

[Ken B]

Hey EigenUser, what do you think about Lutoslawski's music?

To swoop in unasked, mostly excellent. Prefer Penderecki though.

[Mirror Image]

To swoop in unasked, mostly excellent. Prefer Penderecki though.

Szymanowski, Panufnik, Bacewicz, and Lutoslawski are my favorite Poles. I've never been able to appreciate Penderecki. I find too much of his music sounds the same and there's not really much variety in the music. I also don't care for Gorecki. I've been meaning to check out Krzysztof Meyer at some point.

[EigenUser]

Hey EigenUser, what do you think about Lutoslawski's music?

The only time I've heard Lutoslawski (excerpts) was on Simon Rattle's "Leaving Home" series. I enjoyed the "Concerto for Orchestra" and I've been meaning to listen to it in whole ever since. I didn't really care much for the other works that they played ("Venetian Games" and a symphony, but I forgot which one).

Actually, I'm going to look up the CFO on YouTube right now... What works of his do you like? I've heard that his cello concerto is a major work.

Listening to the CFO right now. Reminds me a little bit of late Penderecki so far.

[Ken B]

Szymanowski, Panufnik, Bacewicz, and Lutoslawski are my favorite Poles. I've never been able to appreciate Penderecki. I find too much of his music sounds the same and there's not really much variety in the music. I also don't care for Gorecki.

I love G 3 of course but was less impressed by most of the other stuff. Szym has never appealled but is the Rattle box good? Can recall no Panuf but I know I've heard some. Know not Bacewicz.

My favourite Pole is Chopin, but I assume you meant from th period under discussion.

Lots of terrific composers from the Baltic region. Tubin, Vagn Holmboe, Sallinen, and I keep finding more.

[Mirror Image]

The only time I've heard Lutoslawski (excerpts) was on Simon Rattle's "Leaving Home" series. I enjoyed the "Concerto for Orchestra" and I've been meaning to listen to it in whole ever since. I didn't really care much for the other works that they played ("Venetian Games" and a symphony, but I forgot which one).

Actually, I'm going to look up the CFO on YouTube right now... What works of his do you like? I've heard that his cello concerto is a major work.

Listening to the CFO right now. Reminds me a little bit of late Penderecki so far.

Like Ligeti, Lutoslawski was interested in color and texture in music. He also seemed to have bypassed that whole serialist movement and created his own idiom. Besides the music, the orchestration itself is a thing of marvel. I think it was Esa-Pekka Salonen who pointed out that this orchestration was quite 'French-sounding' and what he meant of course is it seems to have a certain lightness and clarity to it. As for recommendations, I would check out his Piano Concerto first. Truly a remarkable work and probably one of my favorites from his pen. The Cello Concerto seems to get high marks from a lot of listeners but I never really cared much for it to be honest. Since you like Concerto for Orchestra, you should check out Dance Preludes some time preferably the arrangement for clarinet and chamber orchestra.

[Mirror Image]

I love G 3 of course but was less impressed by most of the other stuff. Szym has never appealled but is the Rattle box good? Can recall no Panuf but I know I've heard some. Know not Bacewicz.

My favourite Pole is Chopin, but I assume you meant from th period under discussion.

Lots of terrific composers from the Baltic region. Tubin, Vagn Holmboe, Sallinen, and I keep finding more.

Szymanowski is the first great Polish composer of the 20th Century IMHO. That Rattle set is one of my most prized possessions. All of the performances are brilliant.

I wouldn't call Holmboe or Sallinen composers of the 'Baltic' region since Holmboe is clearly a Dane and Sallinen is a Finn. I usually think about Baltic composers relating more to Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Anyway, I love Part (mainly late '70s period), Tubin, and I do like some of Sumera and the much lesser-known Magi.

[amw]

Listening to the CFO right now. Reminds me a little bit of late Penderecki so far.

The C4O isn't quite as "Luto"—he was still very much under the shadow of Bartók at the time, esp in the last movement. Not that that's ever a bad thing of course. I like the 3rd and 4th symphonies, Livre pour orchestre, Preludes & Fugue for some number of solo strings, String Quartet & some other works but they're a lot more "modern" sounding—a bit on the harsh and dissonant side, though only a bit more so than Bartók at his toughest.

I like Zygmunt Krauze, Augustyn Bloch, Bogusław Schaeffer & Kazimierz Serocki best so far of the post-war Poles. Zbigniew Karkowski is growing on me though I doubt he'll ever be a favourite.

[some guy]

Karkowski has certainly long been a favorite of mine.

Now I'll have to check out those other Poles. I have a vague sense about a couple of them, but no real memory of anything.

Karkowski was wildly talented, I think.

[amw]

Karkowski has certainly long been a favorite of mine.

Now I'll have to check out those other Poles. I have a vague sense about a couple of them, but no real memory of anything.

Karkowski was wildly talented, I think.

They are pretty much nothing like Karkowski, or each other. But that's part of the appeal for me I suppose.

I don't know enough of his music yet to call him a favourite or anything else. I also have yet to hear any of it diffused live. It reminds me a little of Merzbow and Xenakis, but I suppose that is inevitable without enough reference points in the genre.

[some guy]

I've been fortunate enough to have heard him live a couple of times. He was a very charismatic performer. And the music is outrageous.

[Ken B]

Quick Read: Electronic Music, the First Seventy Years

Electric music is the future, and has been since 1897!

[EigenUser]

http://www.youtube.com/v/NJfI_wwLbQs

FREITAG aus LICHT
Oper in einem Gruß, zwei Akten und Abschied (1991 -- 1994)

Freitags-Gruss
Elektronische Musik 8-Spur-Projektion in Foyer und Saal.

Die ELEKTRONISCHE MUSIK mit TONSZENEN wurde 1992 und
1994 im Studio für Elektronische Musik des WDR Köln realisiert.
Karlheinz Stockhausen (Realisation und Baß-Stimme)
Simon Stockhausen (Synthesizer, Sampler)
Kathinka Pasveer (Sporan-Stimme)
Volker Müller (Toningenieur)
Getrud Melcher (Tontechnikerin)

Not bad, actually, and the intro to electronic music was very interesting. The music absolutely goes with the video. Maybe Stockhausen really is from Sirius... I still prefer acoustic sounds, though (I don't even like electric guitar, so it really is just that). If he had written a piece similar to "Cosmic Pulses" for a large orchestra, that would really be interesting for me.

This reminded me to put this up on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/yfVnazeA3zw
Someone had something similar a while back, but I can't find it anymore.

Like Ligeti, Lutoslawski was interested in color and texture in music. He also seemed to have bypassed that whole serialist movement and created his own idiom. Besides the music, the orchestration itself is a thing of marvel. I think it was Esa-Pekka Salonen who pointed out that this orchestration was quite 'French-sounding' and what he meant of course is it seems to have a certain lightness and clarity to it. As for recommendations, I would check out his Piano Concerto first. Truly a remarkable work and probably one of my favorites from his pen. The Cello Concerto seems to get high marks from a lot of listeners but I never really cared much for it to be honest. Since you like Concerto for Orchestra, you should check out Dance Preludes some time preferably the arrangement for clarinet and chamber orchestra.

I listened to the Lutoslawski "Piano Concerto" twice. I really enjoyed it! I'll check out his cello concerto just to see what it's about. If it is anything like Ligeti's, I probably won't like it much. I never really understood or connected at all with Ligeti's "Cello Concerto". Hardly a concerto, except for maybe the second half of the second movement.