So I Like This Woman At Work...

[Opus106]

Ok, maybe my ideal girlfriend would not have to be Mahler-mad (for example), but if she's a musician too, I feel we'd understand eachother so much more...

Not?

[madaboutmahler]

Not?

[Mirror Image]

I do see what you mean, John. However, I think I would get on far better and have a far more successful relationship with someone who either is a musician, or someone who at least enjoys classical music. Music is my life, and the person I'm with I would really want to share that with. Ok, maybe my ideal girlfriend would not have to be Mahler-mad (for example), but if she's a musician too, I feel we'd understand eachother so much more, and we could do so many more things together, like going to concerts etc. It's the same with my friends, I find it difficult to get along with people who are dismissive of classical music. Most of my friends are musicians. Music is not all we talk about, but something we always enjoy talking about!! I really love talking to people who enjoy this music as much as I do.

I understand, but what I'm saying is your expectations are unrealistic, but you are a teenager after all. This is what I have to bear in mind when talking about this kind of stuff with you. It seems you feel this way right now, but once you get out there and live a little more, you will realize that you're chasing a woman that doesn't exist. I do not expect a woman to like classical music, but if she likes music at all then this is a just a bonus because it gives me something to work with. But it should be noted that I like a wide array of music, but, as I said, there's so much more to talk about besides music. I get along with a lot of people not because I'm a classical snob (most people who know me don't even know this about me) but because I can find common ground with people of different backgrounds. Someone doesn't have to be a musician to be a friend of mine and a woman doesn't have to be a music lover to garner my admiration. She could possess so many other qualities that I admire.

[madaboutmahler]

I understand, John. However, I do think it likely that the girl I'll be lucky enough to be with will be a musician. There are plenty of female musicians, and I see them every day! The girl I really like at the moment is a wonderful instrumentalist for example, and is really interested in what I do. What you say about music not being everything to talk about I find true. When I'm out with my friends (who are musicians), we do much music talk, but also talk about so many other general things too. I really love that, it's a great balance.

Of course I know you are all more experienced than me in this sector of life. At the moment, I'm just learning through social observation, and hopefully making progress with the girl I really like!

[Mirror Image]

I understand, John. However, I do think it likely that the girl I'll be lucky enough to be with will be a musician. There are plenty of female musicians, and I see them every day! The girl I really like at the moment is a wonderful instrumentalist for example, and is really interested in what I do. What you say about music not being everything to talk about I find true. When I'm out with my friends (who are musicians), we do much music talk, but also talk about so many other general things too. I really love that, it's a great balance.

Of course I know you are all more experienced than me in this sector of life. At the moment, I'm just learning through social observation, and hopefully making progress with the girl I really like!

I completely understand, Daniel. Yes, it's all about finding a balance of things really. I prefer to hang out with musicians too because this something that we will already have in common. As for finding a woman, if she likes art, films (esp. comedies), then this is a huge plus. The woman I like right now (the one this whole thread is essentially about), is an artist in her spare time and even though we haven't discussed music, I'm sure she enjoys it. I just haven't seen her enough to really find out nor have I had the opportunity to even ask her out yet. I'm going to, but I have make sure it's at the right time.

[madaboutmahler]

I completely understand, Daniel. Yes, it's all about finding a balance of things really. I prefer to hang out with musicians too because this something that we will already have in common. As for finding a woman, if she likes art, films (esp. comedies), then this is a huge plus. The woman I like right now (the one this whole thread is essentially about), is an artist in her spare time and even though we haven't discussed music, I'm sure she enjoys it. I just haven't seen her enough to really find out nor have I had the opportunity to even ask her out yet. I'm going to, but I have make sure it's at the right time.

Thanks, John. Yes, I certainly agree. I wish you the best of luck, John!

[Mirror Image]

Thanks, John. Yes, I certainly agree. I wish you the best of luck, John!

Thank you, Daniel!

[DavidRoss]

I understand, but what I'm saying is your expectations are unrealistic, but you are a teenager after all. This is what I have to bear in mind when talking about this kind of stuff with you. It seems you feel this way right now, but once you get out there and live a little more, you will realize that you're chasing a woman that doesn't exist. I do not expect a woman to like classical music,

Huh? Daniel's expectations are quite rational and realistic. He'd like a woman who shares his interest in one of the most important things in his life, something so central to who he is that a woman who doesn't get it is unlikely to get him.

Far from non-existent, there are millions of women who share his interest. Are you really unaware that many classical musicians are women? And that at most conservatories these days, the number of female students equals or exceeds the number of male students? (San Francisco, 53% male, 47% female; Boston, 40% male, 60% female; Eastman, 40% male, 60% female; Oberlin, 45% male, 55% female; Royal Academy of Music, 45% male, 55% female)

[CriticalI]

I once had a crush on a gorgeous girl named Michael.

Diane Keaton's daughter is called Dexter. What the hell is going on in America? Is there any boys' name that hasn't been given to a girl? And yes, it's one of those bizarre double standard things, whereby women can have "male" names and wear traditionally male clothing without getting a sideways glance, whereas just pity the poor boy called Susan who wears dresses


Snyprrr, I feel ya re lesbians. Most of the women I fancy turn out to be lesbians (and no, it's not the old joke, they actually are lesbians - I'm not interested in girly-girls).

In fact, I pride myself on being completely honest with women. It just seems that a lot of them don't have the intellectual capacity to hold a conversation of depth.

Complete honesty is a mistake, if you mean bemoaning every misfortune you bear, and voicing every prejudice that crosses your mind. I speak from personal experience (the mistakes of naivity, and growing up in the age of the Sensitive New Age Guy). Better to present the best version of your authentic self.

Regarding the second point, most people in general are not up to discussing art etc (even if they enjoy it, that doesn't mean they are up for any sort of detailed discussion).

[ibanezmonster]

Are you really unaware that many classical musicians are women? And that at most conservatories these days, the number of female students equals or exceeds the number of male students? (San Francisco, 53% male, 47% female; Boston, 40% male, 60% female; Eastman, 40% male, 60% female; Oberlin, 45% male, 55% female; Royal Academy of Music, 45% male, 55% female)

What if you don't go to a conservatory? Of course there are a lot in general, but in the regular world, have fun searching...

[Mirror Image]

Huh? Daniel's expectations are quite rational and realistic. He'd like a woman who shares his interest in one of the most important things in his life, something so central to who he is that a woman who doesn't get it is unlikely to get him.

Far from non-existent, there are millions of women who share his interest. Are you really unaware that many classical musicians are women? And that at most conservatories these days, the number of female students equals or exceeds the number of male students? (San Francisco, 53% male, 47% female; Boston, 40% male, 60% female; Eastman, 40% male, 60% female; Oberlin, 45% male, 55% female; Royal Academy of Music, 45% male, 55% female)

Is this a political debate? You fail to understand that I'm a musician and have been since I was 10 years old. What I'm saying is that music may very well be central to Daniel's life, but IT IS NOT EVERYTHING AND NEVER WILL BE!!!! Do you understand this? There are so many things that you can admire in a person and that you are looking for before anything like music is even uttered. Is she a caring person? Is she honest? Does she show you respect? Does she show a genunine interest in what you do and what you enjoy? People don't have to like the same things to be together. You should know this since you're married. You had to make compromises, did you not? You can't sit around with a checklist slowly checking all the things this woman you're dating has and doesn't have. The bottom line is she either makes you feel proud to be alive in this world or she doesn't. Whether she's a musician or not a musician is something that doesn't even matter in the end. If Daniel only likes music, then he's a pretty boring person if you ask me. There's a lot more to appreciate and love about a woman besides what music she enjoys. This shit just doesn't matter in the end.

[Mirror Image]

What if you don't go to a conservatory? Of course there are a lot in general, but in the regular world, have fun searching...

Exactly, not all of us are afforded the opportunity to go to the Royal College of Music where such masters as Parry, Stanford, RVW, and Holst taught. The reality is finding a woman who is into classical music is an unrealistic search, especially in the parts of the country Greg and I live in. Maybe someone who lives in NYC or LA can find someone a lot easier than we can, but it's, to use an old Southern phrase, slim pickin's.

[mc ukrneal]

I understand, but what I'm saying is your expectations are unrealistic, but you are a teenager after all. This is what I have to bear in mind when talking about this kind of stuff with you. It seems you feel this way right now, but once you get out there and live a little more, you will realize that you're chasing a woman that doesn't exist.

I don't understand why you would write this. What expectations do you mean? I dont see any unrealistic expectations in anything he has written. He has a lot of (hopefully wonderful) experiences ahead of him and I wish him (and all of you/us) the best possible.

Exactly, not all of us are afforded the opportunity to go to the Royal College of Music where such masters as Parry, Stanford, RVW, and Holst taught. The reality is finding a woman who is into classical music is an unrealistic search, especially in the parts of the country Greg and I live in. Maybe someone who lives in NYC or LA can find someone a lot easier than we can, but it's, to use an old Southern phrase, slim pickin's.

This has not been my experience. I have travelled the world and the US, and it had never been that difficult to find someone who likes classical music. I found them in high school. I found them at college. I found them at my first job. I found them in my master's program. I found them at my current job. I found them in my travels at the age of 24. I found them all over the world in all sorts of unexpected places. If you expect them to come to you - well that might explain things.

It is also my experience that musicians in general, regardless of speciality of genre, are often happy to either 1) Discuss classical music and exchange ideas on music in general, and/or 2) Learn about a genre they don't know well.

Madmahler never said he was only interested in people who like music. Nor did he say he had no other interests. A person cannot compromise on one's core values (or if one does, it usually leads to disaster) - and I think he has time yet to determine what those are.

[ibanezmonster]

I don't understand why you would write this. What expectations do you mean? I dont see any unrealistic expectations in anything he has written. He has a lot of (hopefully wonderful) experiences ahead of him and I wish him (and all of you/us) the best possible.
This has not been my experience. I have travelled the world and the US, and it had never been that difficult to find someone who likes classical music. I found them in high school. I found them at college. I found them at my first job. I found them in my master's program. I found them at my current job. I found them in my travels at the age of 24. I found them all over the world in all sorts of unexpected places. If you expect them to come to you - well that might explain things.

I've known A LOT of people in the last 5 years since I moved to the area I live in now and have not known one woman (any age) with an interest in classical music or anything like metal/prog/jazz. As for guys who share any similar musical interests, actually, quite a few, though none that are very knowledgeable about classical music. And the women musicians- where are they? I've known tons of musicians that are men, but all of the girls I've known don't really do much.

[mc ukrneal]

I've known A LOT of people in the last 5 years since I moved to the area I live in now and have not known one woman (any age) with an interest in classical music or anything like metal/prog/jazz. As for guys who share any similar musical interests, actually, quite a few, though none that are very knowledgeable about classical music. And the women musicians- where are they? I've known tons of musicians that are men, but all of the girls I've known don't really do much.

But do you put yourself into places/situations that you could find people who do like it? There are so many colleges these days with some sort of music (invited performers, local talent, etc.), cafes/book stores/clubs that attract interested parties, etc. I've never known anyone personally who said/wrote what you just wrote, so it is hard for me to understand. It also directly contradicts my own experience, and I have been all over for various jobs from the southwest US to the east coast, and to other shores, in big cities and tiny towns (rural and urban).

[Mirror Image]

I don't understand why you would write this. What expectations do you mean? I dont see any unrealistic expectations in anything he has written. He has a lot of (hopefully wonderful) experiences ahead of him and I wish him (and all of you/us) the best possible.
This has not been my experience. I have travelled the world and the US, and it had never been that difficult to find someone who likes classical music. I found them in high school. I found them at college. I found them at my first job. I found them in my master's program. I found them at my current job. I found them in my travels at the age of 24. I found them all over the world in all sorts of unexpected places. If you expect them to come to you - well that might explain things.

It is also my experience that musicians in general, regardless of speciality of genre, are often happy to either 1) Discuss classical music and exchange ideas on music in general, and/or 2) Learn about a genre they don't know well.

Madmahler never said he was only interested in people who like music. Nor did he say he had no other interests. A person cannot compromise on one's core values (or if one does, it usually leads to disaster) - and I think he has time yet to determine what those are.

Well tell me Mr. Worldly Traveller, have you ever been to my neck of the woods? Have you ever tried scrapping up a date with a woman around here (NE GA) that likes classical music and actually listens to it? I've spoken with maybe two women who know who Stravinsky and Ravel are and they're past their 50s. Maybe things were different when you were dating? Maybe you and I just don't run in the same circles? Regardless, what I told Daniel was fair and honest. Whether you agree or not doesn't change the fact that people who are younger have unrealistic expectations and they tend to dream of something that's 'picture perfect'. That's just apart of being a wide-eyed teenager. As Daniel's friend, I'm not going to sugarcoat things for him and I don't expect him to with me either. I KNOW he will find a woman worthy of his time, but what I want him to know is that finding good qualities in the woman's character are much more important than what music she favors. That's what I'm trying to tell him.

[Mirror Image]

But do you put yourself into places/situations that you could find people who do like it? There are so many colleges these days with some sort of music (invited performers, local talent, etc.), cafes/book stores/clubs that attract interested parties, etc. I've never known anyone personally who said/wrote what you just wrote, so it is hard for me to understand. It also directly contradicts my own experience, and I have been all over for various jobs from the southwest US to the east coast, and to other shores, in big cities and tiny towns (rural and urban).

It's hard to put yourself into situations with people who listen to rap crap and country shit. A lot of the musicians that I know personally don't listen to classical music and generally have what I would call poor taste in music. I would be generalizing if I said all the women down here are nothing but superficial and plastic but, in all honesty, if feels this way. I could easily find older people who are into classical music. Like I said, I know two women past their 50s who know who Ravel and Stravinsky actually are, but to find a woman my age (30) who enjoys classical music past the occasional listen is hard to come by. My general opinion on everything you've been saying is you act like you're some kind of social butterfly and Greg and I don't have a clue as to how to go about meeting people and finding people with shared interests. It's harder than you think and traveling up and down the East Coast of the United States doesn't give you any credibility whatsoever. I'm talking specifically about the area I live in and nothing else.

[mc ukrneal]

Well tell me Mr. Worldly Traveller, have you ever been to my neck of the woods? Have you ever tried scrapping up a date with a woman around here (NE GA) that likes classical music and actually listens to it? I've spoken with maybe two women who know who Stravinsky and Ravel are and they're past their 50s. Maybe things were different when you were dating? Maybe you and I just don't run in the same circles? Regardless, what I told Daniel was fair and honest. Whether you agree or not doesn't change the fact that people who are younger have unrealistic expectations and they tend to dream of something that's 'picture perfect'. That's just apart of being a wide-eyed teenager. As Daniel's friend, I'm not going to sugarcoat things for him and I don't expect him to with me either. I KNOW he will find a woman worthy of his time, but what I want him to know is that finding good qualities in the woman's character are much more important than what music she favors. That's what I'm trying to tell him.

NE Georgia  - never lived there, no. But have you lived in the godforsaken north of NY or the desolate parts of Arizona? And if I told you that even in places like this I found ways to meet people (meaning girls within a reasonable age of mine) with similar interests despite the pre-internet world of the time (or still young anyway), wouldn't you think you could too? So what if we don't run in the same circles? We are not confined to them except that we confine ourselves.

You may feel you are being fair and honest with Madmahler - I don't doubt this good intent. But you are giving him one brand of honesty. There is no reason he (And all of us) should not try and find someone who has this interest that he does (we do) and that he should try and 'get the world' frankly. He/we should not settle or compromise if this is important enough to him/us. The glass is half full for all of us if we want it to be.  If being unrealistic means aiming high, then I hope everyone is unrealistic, because we should aim high.

[Mirror Image]

NE Georgia  - never lived there, no. But have you lived in the godforsaken north of NY or the desolate parts of Arizona? And if I told you that even in places like this I found ways to meet people (meaning girls within a reasonable age of mine) with similar interests despite the pre-internet world of the time (or still young anyway), wouldn't you think you could too? So what if we don't run in the same circles? We are not confined to them except that we confine ourselves.

You may feel you are being fair and honest with Madmahler - I don't doubt this good intent. But you are giving him one brand of honesty. There is no reason he (And all of us) should not try and find someone who has this interest that he does (we do) and that he should try and 'get the world' frankly. He/we should not settle or compromise if this is important enough to him/us. The glass is half full for all of us if we want it to be.  If being unrealistic means aiming high, then I hope everyone is unrealistic, because we should aim high.

Compromises will always need to be made if he wants to sustain a relationship with a woman. Anyone who has been in a long-term relationship or married will know this. It's just the way it is. I'm not telling Daniel that he shouldn't go after a woman who likes classical music, I'm saying that music isn't the only thing in this world that matters and I say this as somebody who is passionate about it. There are other ways to connect with people and if music was his only outlet for doing so, then perhaps he needs to take up some other hobbies. If you look at this as something that is negative, then you simply aren't comprehending what I'm writing. Even Daniel's favorite composer, Mahler had hobbies and things he enjoyed doing when he wasn't conducting or composing. One thing shouldn't define who you are but rather put yourself out there and into other areas of interest. You're only limiting yourself if you're confining yourself to one small group of people I think, which in Daniel's case would be musicians.

I'll quote Allan Pettersson when he said "Music is not a salvation, but it helps us endure...endure until we can finally be laid to rest."

[Mirror Image]

My apologies to Daniel, Dave Ross, and Neal. Please disregard this bitter fool's tirades. He's not of the right mind tonight. Anyway, Daniel should do what he feels is right in his heart. Sometimes one's help is no help at all.