Vienna Philharmonic - Nazi History

[TheGSMoeller]

Vienna Philharmonic lifts lid on Nazi history

[Daimonion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEllLECo4OM

Btw: how can I embed a youtube video in here?

[Cato]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEllLECo4OM

Btw: how can I embed a youtube video in here?

Go to the first icon in the middle list: "f"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEllLECo4OM  Delete the "=" and add "/"  and delete the "watch?"

You can change the Flash size by changing the "200/200" to e.g. "400/400"

http://www.youtube.com/v/QEllLECo4OM

[mahler10th]

Vienna Philharmonic lifts lid on Nazi history

It has even made the National news on the BBC in the UK (but not the main story).   

[MishaK]

You also have to love the formulations on the VPO website that basically suggests that the orchestra was a passive entity subject to the whims of the Nazi leadership with no agency of its own (I suppose this is how Austrians see themselves generally - as passive subjects of German annexation):

"1938 griff auf brutalste Weise die Politik ins philharmonische Geschehen ein: Die Nationalsozialisten entließen fristlos alle jüdischen Künstler aus dem Dienst der Staatsoper und lösten den Verein Wiener Philharmoniker auf."

Translation: The year 1938 (subject of the sentence as if it was a an actor) intervened in the most brutal fashion into the activities of the Philharmonic: the National Socialists (not perhaps members of the orchestra management *who were* Nazis) fired with immediate effect all Jewish artists from the service of the State Opera and dissolved the Society of the Vienna Philharmonic (the latter a separate act that was cancelled later).

[mahler10th]

Revealing.

http://www.vulture.com/2013/03/davidson-on-the-vienna-philharmonics-nazi-era.html

[MishaK]

Also: http://blogs.wfmt.com/andrewpatner/2013/03/13/vienna-philharmonics-nazi-ties/

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Also: http://blogs.wfmt.com/andrewpatner/2013/03/13/vienna-philharmonics-nazi-ties/

And you can watch Patner mix it up with a certain long-banned former member of this forum, here:

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/03/vienna-philharmonic-we-were-nazis-before-during-and-after-the-war.html

[MishaK]

And you can watch Patner mix it up with a certain long-banned former member of this forum, here:

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/03/vienna-philharmonic-we-were-nazis-before-during-and-after-the-war.html

That's great! Obtuse as ever. Thanks for that.

[Daverz]

That's great! Obtuse as ever. Thanks for that.

I'm not very impressed with the guy countering Michael, who makes legalistic statements like  "No, the United States as a country did not have segregation laws on its books."  As if segregation was not a blot on the nation because Congress never passed anything called The Segregation Act. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm not very impressed with the guy countering Michael, who makes legalistic statements like  "No, the United States as a country did not have segregation laws on its books."  As if segregation was not a blot on the nation because Congress never passed anything called The Segregation Act.

I also thought it was an interesting thread, and also wasn't impressed with the Opposition. For one thing, Jim Crow laws (which are the same thing with a different name) existed in some states until post-WWII.

I may be putting my own head in the oven, but essentially I agree with what MS is saying there. For example, I don't disagree with this:

I am simply alarmed that alleged contravention of EU employment law – in many cases difficult to prove given the subjective issues involved – should be compared with the vile excesses of National Socialism. The fact that out of its 140 or so players the VPO does not now have 70 women members, 70 black members, not to mention appropriate percentages of openly gay and lesbian members, let alone other minorities, can surely be separated from the percentage who became members of the Nazi party over 60 years ago. Or are we to believe that the VPO's present constitution comes from a permanent unbroken lineage of Nazi sympathisers?

Nor do I disagree with this;

That's basically what I meant when I said earlier in the other thread that this kind of comparison is massively trivializing the subject. As quirky and somewhat anachronistic as the approach to member selection is that the Wiener Philharmoniker still practice, it has nothing to do with the massive crimes and the extremist totalitarian ideology of the NSDAP. Making that comparison and trying to assign collective guilt for the past to the current members of the orchestra is ludicrous.

How many people are actually "victimized" by the way they run their organization? Practically none. There are very few people who are good enough to play in that orchestra anyway...

My interest in Fascism, except in a self-defensive way, is actually below zero. However, people seem unable to compare apples with apples, there is a near-Pavlovian response elicited when the word 'Nazi' is introduced into the conversation. One of the reasons that discussions of that topic have been stifled over time. They soon reach beyond all reasonable limits. Of course, this one will too. I hope for some interesting and rational discussion before it comes to that though.

[Florestan]

When Michael is wrong he's dead wrong but when he's right --- as in this case --- he's spot on. Thumbs up for, and kudos to, him.

[MishaK]

M makes a good argument, but he's shooting at straw men by simplifying the argument of his opposition. The point is rather that the recent revelations show that:

1. a dispropotionate number of members of the VPO were members of the Nazi party and joined well before that had any advantages for them (let alone compulsion) and even at a time when it was illegal.

2. Nazi sympathies continued well into the 60s, as seen by reawarding von Schirach after his release from prison.

3. one of their main "traditions", the New Year's concert, is in fact fake, having been dreamt up as a Nazi propaganda vehicle, there having been no previous tradition of playing Strauss waltzes (and in fact open hostility towards doing so) before that.

Taking this together, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the VPO's hiring "traditions" are not equally fake and are not in fact a reflection of a, shall we say, at least extremely "conservative" mindset. It is hard to argue that nepotism (as evidenced by multiple sets of siblings having been members of the VPO) is somehow OK, but admitting women and non-Austrians would somehow undermine the traditional sound of the orchestra. Musical excellence simply cannot have been the most important guiding goal of the hiring process in the past. (And frankly, you can hear that. They aren't a virtuoso orchestra and sound very uncomfortable outside of their traditional core repertoire.) But this too is changing. It is unfortunate that a blight caused by a generation that is on its way out of the orchestra will affect the current, much more diverse membership of the VPO. The current younger female and non-Austrian members of the orchestra will gain more power and stature within the orchestra as they age and won't be making the same sort of hiring decisions their elders made.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

1. a dispropotionate number of members of the VPO were members of the Nazi party and joined well before that had any advantages for them (let alone compulsion) and even at a time when it was illegal.

2. Nazi sympathies continued well into the 60s, as seen by reawarding von Schirach after his release from prison.

3. one of their main "traditions", the New Year's concert, is in fact fake, having been dreamt up as a Nazi propaganda vehicle, there having been no previous tradition of playing Strauss waltzes (and in fact open hostility towards doing so) before that.

To your numbered points:

1. This is not news actually. I remember reading about it back in the 90s. Yet some people are treating it as a great revelation. Maybe it's just the first time they've heard this.

2. I think this is not news either. Jewish conductors who worked with the VPO, like Solti and Bernstein, were certainly aware of it at the time. Maybe the news about von Schirach is a genuine revelation. But if so, it's just filling in some blanks.

3. Interesting to know, but IMHO irrelevant at this time. I've watched many of those concerts, and not once have I gotten a whiff of Nazi propaganda from them. Are people seriously proposing that they cancel the New Year's concert due to its dubious origins?

[MishaK]

1. This is not news actually. I remember reading about it back in the 90s. Yet some people are treating it as a great revelation. Maybe it's just the first time they've heard this.

You are right that a lot of this was known. Or at least had been aired by some. But those who did do so were threatened by libel suits from the VPO. The point is that the VPO finally admits this themselves. Listen to Patner's radio piece linked above. He acknowledges that a lot of this was publicized by some, who then were called "liars" by the VPO.

2. I think this is not news either. Jewish conductors who worked with the VPO, like Solti and Bernstein, were certainly aware of it at the time. Maybe the news about von Schirach is a genuine revelation. But if so, it's just filling in some blanks.

Not quite right. Solti didn't like the attitude he was getting from the Viennese. I don't remember reading anywhere in his autobiography that that he was aware that the VPO unapologetically continued to bestow honors on Nazi war criminals. This is quite a bit more than just "filling in some blanks".

3. Interesting to know, but IMHO irrelevant at this time. I've watched many of those concerts, and not once have I gotten a whiff of Nazi propaganda from them. Are people seriously proposing that they cancel the New Year's concert due to its dubious origins?

You should have responded to my conclusion below this point. If the "tradition" of new years concerts and the "tradition" of playing Strauss Waltzes is actually fake and a rather recent invention, then the hiring "traditions" and other "traditions" behing which the VPO hides whenever it refuses to accept modern social realities, are very possibly equally fake. Nobody's expecting anyone to cancel new years concerts. Like M, you object to an imaginary argument I never made.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

If the "tradition" of new years concerts and the "tradition" of playing Strauss Waltzes is actually fake and a rather recent invention, then the hiring "traditions" and other "traditions" behing which the VPO hides whenever it refuses to accept modern social realities, are very possibly equally fake.

"Possibly" is the right word, as further research would have to be done to establish that link. But here's something that puzzles me: just like the VPO, the Czech Philharmonic did not admit women as full-time players until the 1990s. Yet to the best of my knowledge, nobody boycotted the CzPO, or ran similar publicity campaigns against them, demanding that they open their ranks to women. (Maybe such boycotts did take place, but if so I missed them.)

Why was that? Was it just because the CzPO didn't have a Nazi past? Or was it because of the VPO's greater symbolic value?

[MishaK]

Why was that? Was it just because the CzPO didn't have a Nazi past? Or was it because of the VPO's greater symbolic value?

More likely because the CzPO was behind the iron curtain until 1989. 

[kishnevi]

"Possibly" is the right word, as further research would have to be done to establish that link. But here's something that puzzles me: just like the VPO, the Czech Philharmonic did not admit women as full-time players until the 1990s. Yet to the best of my knowledge, nobody boycotted the CzPO, or ran similar publicity campaigns against them, demanding that they open their ranks to women. (Maybe such boycotts did take place, but if so I missed them.)

Why was that? Was it just because the CzPO didn't have a Nazi past? Or was it because of the VPO's greater symbolic value?

The symbolic value.  To put it bluntly, when was the last time the CzPO appeared on PBS?  Or the Berlin Philharmonic, for that matter.  (Thanks to that New Years concert,  the VPO probably is seen on PBS as often as the NYPO). 

Of course, the VPO attempts to cultivate an image as being in apostolic succession to the masters of the 19th century, something the record labels among others are quite willing to assist in.   

BTW, I'm totally ignorant of the answer to this question:  how did the Berliners fare in regards to women members--and in opening up about 1933-1945?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

BTW, I'm totally ignorant of the answer to this question:  how did the Berliners fare in regards to women members--and in opening up about 1933-1945?

As I recall, they didn't have any female members until 1982, when Karajan hired the clarinetist Sabine Meyer.

As to your other question, I don't know really; but I've heard they were much less entangled with the Nazis than the VPO were, so maybe they have less to "open up" about.

[Florestan]

Call me any names you want, but I can't understand: why something that started in 1939, i.e. has the venerable age of almost 75 years, is a fake tradition? If anything that originated in the Nazi era of Germany/Austria is fake and should be abolished, then why stop at the Viennese New Year's Concert? Why not discontinue the production of Volkswagen cars, or raze to the ground the German highways? 

As for the idea of hearing Aryan supremacy in the waltzes of the Strauss family, my only comment is: you guys need medication under professional surveillance.