Music and struggling

[Karl Henning]

Back to the actual topic . . . I want to talk a little about Elgar.

I've been a fan forever of the Violin Sonata and of the Violin and Cello Concerti.  It would not be quite right to say that I struggled to like the Symphonies (musically, I believe I understood them all right) but, somehow, they didn't sing to me.  I do not exactly know why, at last, I enjoy them very well . . . and again, I am certainly not aware of any struggling going on.

[Florestan]

Who on Earth is Hamish, I wonder?

I don't have any stake in the whole Nietzsche kerfuffle either but it seems to me to be a case of a heavy storm in glass of water. Henk, if you take Nietzsche's word as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on all matters art and music it's okay. It's not okay to feel personally and deeply offended if other people  do not do the same and express criticism directed at Nietzsche's ideas --- ideas, not person, mind you. Had anyone of your opponents wrote that Nietzsche was not, and could not be, right because he was a madman, or a super-egotistic bordering to narcissism, it could have been interpreted as maligning him, even if the two statements are rigorously true. All that they said is that Nietzsche was a child of his time, that one should not take Nietzsche's pronouncements as the last word on the matter and that, given his personality, at least a minimal amount of critical thinking is required in order to sort out the good from the bad in his writings. I fail to see why all this (which, by the way, common-sense dictates that apply to each and every thinker out there, not only Nietzsche) should have triggered your (over)reaction. I mean, come on: hate, disgust, kill? whoever does not agree with you (actually, with your idol) is a despicable, bully ignoramus not worth living? Really? Can you produce one single quotation from Nietzsche supporting this stance?

And no, by writing this I'm neither bullying you nor supporting other bullies (because there are none in the room). I just had to write it.

[Florestan]

Andrei, you're dead wrong.

It wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last. 

[Karl Henning]

It wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last. 

We're all wrong sometime or other  0:)

[Florestan]

We're all wrong sometime or other  0:)

As a Romanian writer and causeur once said, the difference between an idiot and an intelligent man is that the latter is wrong every now and then while the former is wrong every time. 

[Henk]

Who on Earth is Hamish, I wonder?

I don't have any stake in the whole Nietzsche kerfuffle either but it seems to me to be a case of a heavy storm in glass of water. Henk, if you take Nietzsche's word as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on all matters art and music it's okay. It's not okay to feel personally and deeply offended if other people  do not do the same and express criticism directed at Nietzsche's ideas --- ideas, not person, mind you. Had anyone of your opponents wrote that Nietzsche was not, and could not be, right because he was a madman, or a super-egotistic bordering to narcissism, it could have been interpreted as maligning him, even if the two statements are rigorously true. All that they said is that Nietzsche was a child of his time, that one should not take Nietzsche's pronouncements as the last word on the matter and that, given his personality, at least a minimal amount of critical thinking is required in order to sort out the good from the bad in his writings. I fail to see why all this (which, by the way, common-sense dictates that apply to each and every thinker out there, not only Nietzsche) should have triggered your (over)reaction. I mean, come on: hate, disgust, kill? whoever does not agree with you (actually, with your idol) is a despicable, bully ignoramus not worth living? Really? Can you produce one single quotation from Nietzsche supporting this stance?

And no, by writing this I'm neither bullying you nor supporting other bullies (because there are none in the room). I just had to write it.

Cato is Hamish.

Thanks for the feedback (which makes if different from bullying). I have no problem that people don't agree with Nietzsche, as I wrote. It's rather the way in which Cato expresses it.

[knight66]

From GMG Forum Rules

"Please treat other members of this forum with courtesy and respect. By all means, discuss and argue the topic at hand, but do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member."

Henk, I have taken time to read through the pages here that have given rise to these exchanges amongst which are posts of yours which have been reported by two members.

Brian has really done the moderator job here and everyone has been both rational and patient with you. No one has even approached a bullying attitude towards you. I will write separately to you, but am putting this here so that all can see that the reports are being actioned.

1) Any more of these over the top reactions from you will be deleted.
2) Any post with a personal insult in it will be deleted in its entirety.
2) If there are more, you will be put onto a watch list which will require a mod to pass and post every contribution you make until your posting returns to normal.

USUALLY I WOULD HAVE AMENDED OR DELETED THE OFFENDING POSTS, WHICH THOROUGHLY FLOUT THE RULES. I LEAVE THEM HERE, AS THEY HAVE BEEN SO EXTENSIVELY QUOTED.

Knight

[Henk]

USUALLY I WOULD HAVE AMENDED OR DELETED THE OFFENDING POSTS, WHICH THOROUGHLY FLOUT THE RULES. I LEAVE THEM HERE, AS THEY HAVE BEEN SO EXTENSIVELY QUOTED.

Knight

I know what this means. And I don't agree with how I am treated. If you all think I'm a barbarian (considering how the policy is interpreted and executed), then yes, it's better to leave.

[Karl Henning]

. . . while the former is wrong every time. 

You think that's easy? ? ? 

[knight66]

I know what this means. And I don't agree with how I am treated. If you all think I'm a barbarian (considering how the policy is interpreted and executed), then yes, it's better to leave.

No one has asked you to leave, no one has suggested that you are a barbarian. Your language is very extreme. Now, I have written to you and suggest that, rather than make matters worse, you take the suggestions I have given to you.

Tomorrow is another day that can start with a clean sheet.

Knight

[North Star]

Back to the actual topic . . . I want to talk a little about Elgar.

I've been a fan forever of the Violin Sonata and of the Violin and Cello Concerti.  It would not be quite right to say that I struggled to like the Symphonies (musically, I believe I understood them all right) but, somehow, they didn't sing to me.  I do not exactly know why, at last, I enjoy them very well . . . and again, I am certainly not aware of any struggling going on.

Although I arrived to the Violin Sonata after the symphonies, I can sympathize here.

But once again, struggling, with all its negative connotations, isn't really what we're after. When we expose ourselves to a work of art and it has an effect on us, our reaction to it will change over repeated exposure. With works that have staying power, the 'struggle' gives way to a deeper understanding of and harmony with it. If you start jogging 30 minutes every morning and are in very poor shape as you start, it's going to take a while before you will be able to run the whole time without stopping for breath. After a while, you'll be able to run at a faster pace, for a longer time, and in more difficult terrain - and if you run the same course several times, you will become familiar with the road, terrain and views along it. I guess it depends on the person whether they enjoy this 'struggle', or don't even try it.

Similarly, listening equips us for more and better listening.

[Henk]

No one has asked you to leave, no one has suggested that you are a barbarian. Your language is very extreme. Now, I have written to you and suggest that, rather than make matters worse, you take the suggestions I have given to you.

Tomorrow is another day that can start with a clean sheet.

Knight

As I wrote you, I just concluded I don't fit in this group and will spend my time in other ways. I feel also people don't really appreciate my presence here. Maybe it has grown that way and I'm part to blame, I can live with what orfeo wrote. As a consequence that I don't fit here, I think I'm not treated fair. But therefor, let's not blame each other. However I can't stand Hamish behaviour.

I just don't fit in here anymore now.

[knight66]

Henk, I have written behind the scenes again; ultimately it is your decision, but no one is pushing you or excluding you.

Regards,

Knight

[relm1]

relm1, that Stravinsky quote has a whole lot going on, and I decided to break it down...

The first thought that occurs to me is that, at the time Stravinsky wrote this (1935), "mechanical means" did constrict music in many ways: poor sound quality for one thing, and short record playing times necessitating cuts.

There is, of course, an element of truth here: I can pull up Beethoven and listen right now; not so in 1818. But there is also an element of "in my day we walked to school in the snow uphill both ways". For example, I doubt that any home listener in the 1700s, other than say Charles Burney, developed a really deep appreciation of any orchestral work - the way that we'd develop an appreciation today, with the aid of recordings.

I don't think that "comprehension" and active listening are historically very important, however. When Stravinsky was writing, I'd argue that those concepts were in fact relatively new! Certainly, "comprehension" was not in mind for French court composers writing divertimenti, or Vivaldi composing for his school charges. And moreover, up through the mid-1800s, audience-goers were not the listeners Stravinsky would have desired: churchgoers who were there for the worship, churchgoers who were there resentfully because they were required to attend, socialites noisily gossiping and seducing each other. I think it's an Austen novel where one of the girls complains that her trip to the opera was a failure, because she had to listen to the music!

THIS is true - not playing an instrument is something where I feel like I'm missing out, a lot. And certainly a major change over the past 100 years.

This is a subject where we can have a pretty interesting discussion. People do still, of course, care a lot about good music. But certainly in pop music, standards have plummeted: consistent beats, monotonous dynamic levels, three Swedish guys writing every single pop song. And the recording quality is abysmal. Nevertheless, between Stravinsky's time and Katy Perry's, we got the Beatles, the Stones, John Coltrane, Nina Simone...eh, you get the idea.

Also, I don't think "pop music" was ever something that really required active listening and deep musical knowledge. If they were playing music at a tavern in 1840, you probably got up to dance to it.

Fair points.  Did you hear about the study that most young people (say in their 20's or younger) believe MP3 to be superior fidelity to CD or uncompressed since they grew up with that technology as the basis of what they always hear?  As the web generation gets older it could be that quality audio reproduction wont be the highly sought after commodity it's seen as today.   Formats like SACD and DVD Audio (and even the humble CD) shrink further into obscurity, but sadly not because they're considered too bulky and inconvenient but simply because they just sound too true to life.   

[Cato]

However I can't stand Hamish behaviour.

Many moons ago "Nietzsche is Pietzsche"  (Nietzsche is peachy) was sold on buttons and was not seen as an insult to Nietzsche or anyone else.

I am not sure what sort of "behavior" is exhibited in not accepting Nietzsche's ideas as very valid.  There is a fairly good list of philosophers and others who saw little validity in them, George Santayana is among them.

Back to the topic!

But once again, struggling, with all its negative connotations, isn't really what we're after. When we expose ourselves to a work of art and it has an effect on us, our reaction to it will change over repeated exposure. With works that have staying power, the 'struggle' gives way to a deeper understanding of and harmony with it.

Similarly, listening equips us for more and better listening.

I had a similar comment yesterday, which might have been lost in the kerfluffle:

Very nice idea, and there is an adjacent phenomenon, where one believes that the old warhorse "has nothing left to say," and so one ignores it, or even rejects it as unworthy of a visit.  And then, one day, one hears it again, and everything about it is like new: perhaps a young conductor has somehow invigorated it or simply the passage of time has changed one's ears.  But there it is, a Schubert Eighth or a Tchaikovsky Fourth or a von Suppe' overture, and suddenly one wonders why the earlier rejection had ever occurred!

[Henk]

Henk, I have written behind the scenes again; ultimately it is your decision, but no one is pushing you or excluding you.

Regards,

Knight

On basis of a personal evaluation I will leave now. Part of it is that I have too little interaction with members. I won't be that dramatic to cancel my account however. Maybe I will come back later, maybe I won't.

[Elgarian]

Back to the actual topic . . . I want to talk a little about Elgar.

I've been a fan forever of the Violin Sonata and of the Violin and Cello Concerti.  It would not be quite right to say that I struggled to like the Symphonies (musically, I believe I understood them all right) but, somehow, they didn't sing to me.  I do not exactly know why, at last, I enjoy them very well . . . and again, I am certainly not aware of any struggling going on.

This offers a super example of some of the issues we've been talking about - I mean to do with struggling and not struggling. Notes to compare with yours:

1. I must have been about 16 when I first heard Elgar's 1st symphony, and I'd not heard much else in the way of symphonies. Sibelius 1, Beethoven 5, one or two others. I barely knew what a symphony was. Yet I was in tears at the end of it. I felt that I'd been taken to a place I never knew existed. No struggle, no sir, none at all - it was just a matter of getting into the carriage and being taken for a ride, and then spending the rest of my life going for the ride again and again and seeing new sights along the way.

2. It took me years to get to the point where I could enjoy the violin sonata and the violin concerto - especially the latter. That was real struggle. For years I just couldn't enjoy it at all. Yawned my way restlessly through the cadenza, wondering when it was time for tea!! I can't remember when or why the penny dropped, but when it did the struggle paid off in untold riches, and I've written about the VC often enough here for the scale of the transformation to be clear.

Now blimey, this is Elgar!!! Not some weird modern piece of music that probably will be hopelessly beyond me forever, but Elgar!!! Even here, there's that paradoxical mix of struggle and deepest pleasure. Even Elgar, the composer who's always felt like a personal friend, has had me doing my fair share of struggling.

Where am I going with this? I can't remember. I'l just leave it floating.

[relm1]

Back to the actual topic . . . I want to talk a little about Elgar.

I've been a fan forever of the Violin Sonata and of the Violin and Cello Concerti.  It would not be quite right to say that I struggled to like the Symphonies (musically, I believe I understood them all right) but, somehow, they didn't sing to me.  I do not exactly know why, at last, I enjoy them very well . . . and again, I am certainly not aware of any struggling going on.

Some works I like or admire but have no desire to investigate further.  For example, I don't remember the last time I wanted to listen to an entire Bruckner symphony even though I like them.  I just feel like I got the point already...but then every now and then a new recording comes around that makes me what to reacquaint myself with it and then be satisfied for the next years.   It seems some works reward the patience and analysis more than others so its not just about being open to it but also trying to understand it.  It has been awhile since I wanted to re-listen to a new work but it still happens to me and is quite a joy when something compels me to stop and investigate further...it might take a few listens to get to that point where I even want to investigate it further. 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

After the 6th page of this discussion I began to struggle to find some of the more interesting posts....

But it seems that little kerfuffle is cleared up and over with now.

Now, I shall return to the sounds of the city I'm in...what lovely sounds!!!

[ShineyMcShineShine]

There's a thing that I find perplexing. It seems, according to many different posts in many different threads, that listening to music, especially to classical music is an effort, sometimes a quite large effort. Classical music in this scenario is complex and intimidating, which makes its eventual conquering a quite praise-worthing endeavor!

If I'm making any effort at understanding any particular piece, however, I'm not aware of it. Not aware of it as effort, anyway. When I'm listening to music, the only non-musical thing I'm aware of is that I'm enjoying myself immensely. Listening to music is fun. If I hit some particular piece that I don't enjoy, then I just move on without thinking about it at all. No particular experience with any individual piece changes the general situation for me, which is that listening to music is fun.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you talk about struggle and effort. I suspect you mean forcing oneself to listen to "difficult" music that is not immediately enjoyable. In that sense I've never much struggled because I tend to avoid music I don't enjoy. But as someone who has had no musical training and who discovered classical music in middle age, I would say it has required a definite effort to appreciate it. In high school I decided that I wanted to be the kind of person who listened to classical music, so I borrowed a copy of Dvorak's ninth symphony from the library, listened to it once, and returned it. In contrast to pop and rock, classical is complex and intimidating, to use your words, and I just didn't know how to listen to it. It was only decades later that I discovered I need to listen attentively to a piece of classical music over and over before it begins to sink in. For me, enjoyment derives from familiarity, so the better I know the music, the more I enjoy it -- assuming it's good music to begin with. So the effort I exert is in the form of listening attentively and repeatedly. Listening to music is fun, yes, but some music is more fun than others, and I think for me classical will always require more effort than rock.