Calvinism & other Frivolities

[Christo]

A sanctuary to share all your prejudices against those who think differently, without having to feel obliged to find a connection with an American president who doesn't even have a clue what it is about.

[Christo]

I don't deny Calvin's impeccable credentials as a scholar of philosophy and law, but humanism is much more than scholarship: it's a conception of humanity and its role in the world, and a corresponding existential attitude, which Calvin never embraced.

This short lecture might help:
https://www.youtube.com/v/VFl371p36KQ 

[Cato]

This is my kind of Calvinism (Hobbes is the tiger):

[Christo]

This is my kind of Calvinism (Hobbes is the tiger):

We know 

[Christo]

Of course it was. The Germanic languages didn't even had enough, or proper, words for the multitude of concepts and ideas expressed in Latin --- until Luther, that is, who in this respect, as in many others, was far superior to Calvin.

Wrong, (Southern Netherlands, mostly) Dutch had already devoloped into a cultural language of comparable conceptual use in the 14th and 15th centuries (long before High German, which followed Dutch in this respect). And Luther was many things, but as an intellectual no match for Cauvin (he needed other humanists like Melanchton to do the job for him).

Oh, please, Johan. That state, which had absolutely no political connection whatsoever to the true Roman Empire was neither Sacrum, nor Imperium, nor Romanum; the title was fraudulent on all accounts --- and you know it only too well.

Voitaire's famous bon mot, but disagree: it was very much Roman, in many (law, religion, language, territory, Rome, the papacy) respects.

[Florestan]

And Luther was many things, but as an intellectual no match for Cauvin (he needed other humanists like Melanchton to do the job for him).

Oh, agreed. Calvin was the typical dry, academic, abstract intellectual who thought himself endowed with the divinely ordained mission of saving the world from sin and error; spiritual pride and intellectual arrogance blinded him to his own sins and errors and turned him very early into a fanatical and ruthless ideologue. He was a kind of Lenin avant la lettre.  Luther on the other hand, while sharing the same pride and arrogance, was nevertheless a rather sensual / sensuous man who even in the midst of his follies and errors retained a good measure of peasant common-sense and down-to-earthness which prompted him to yield to Melanchton's moderating influence on so many topics. He was by far more moderate, humane and likeable than Calvin. And anyway, whatever damage he might have caused, he more than compensated for it by prompting some of the most glorious musical achievements the world has ever seen. Calvin has no similar redeeming feature whatsoever.

[Florestan]

On the "fine humanism" of Calvin, Part the First.

Pico della Mirandola, excerpts from De hominis dignitate (1496)

[M]an's place in the universe is somewhere between the beasts and the angels, but, because of the divine image planted in him, there are no limits to what man can accomplish.

It will be in your [Adam's] power to descend to the lower, brutish forms of life; you will be able, through your own decision, to rise again to the superior orders whose life is divine.

Let some holy ambition invade our souls, so that, dissatisfied with mediocrity, we shall eagerly desire the highest things and shall toil with all our strength to obtain them, since we may if we wish.

We have made thee neither of heaven nor of earth,
Neither mortal or immortal,
So that with freedom of choice and with honor,
As thought the maker and molder of thyself,
Thou mayest fashion thyself in whatever shape thou shalt prefer.
Thou shalt have the power out of thy soul's judgment,
to be reborn into the higher forms, which are divine.


John Calvin, excerpts from Institutes of the Christian Religion (1536)

...our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence.

Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others.

We must therefore observe this grand point of distinction, that man, having been corrupted by his fall, sins voluntarily, not with reluctance or constraint; with the strongest propensity of disposition, not with violent coercion; with the bias of his own passions, and not with external compulsion: yet such is the depravity of his nature that he cannot be excited and biased to anything but what is evil.

For what accords better and more aptly with faith than to acknowledge ourselves divested of all virtue that we may be clothed by God, devoid of all goodness that we may be filled by him, the slaves of sin that he may give us freedom, blind that he may enlighten, lame that he may cure, and feeble that he may sustain us; to strip ourselves of all ground of glorying that he alone may shine forth glorious, and we be glorified in him?


(all emphasis mine).

I ask ye all who read this: who is the true humanist here?

[Florestan]

Wrong, (Southern Netherlands, mostly) Dutch had already devoloped into a cultural language of comparable conceptual use in the 14th and 15th centuries (long before High German, which followed Dutch in this respect).

Corpus Iuris Civilis is the backbone of Roman Law, compiled in 529 -34 by order of the Roman Emperor Justinian.

First Dutch translation published in 1935-2011.

First German translation published in 1830-33.

Summa theologiae, written by St. Thomas Aquinas in 1265-74, is the backbone of the Roman Catholic Church's official theology.

First Dutch translation published in 1927-43.

First German translation published in 1886-92

[Florestan]

[The Holy Roman Empire] was very much Roman, in many (law, religion, language, territory, Rome, the papacy) respects.

The HRE did not create Roman Law. The HRE did not create Roman religion. The HRE did not create the Latin language. The HRE did not create the papacy. It adopted / imported them tale quale from the one, true, legitimate Roman Empire which predated it by more than 800 years.

The HRE laid illegitimate and fraudulent claims to those territories of the one, true, legitimate Roman Empire where the imperial authority dissolved in 476, not least because of the conscious interference of exactly the ancestors of those who created the HRE. The true and legitimate Roman Emperors strongly protested this usurpation and vehemently denounced those upstart Germanic chieftains who had the nerve to arrogate themselves the imperial majesty.

The one, true, legitimate Roman Empire fell on May 29, 1453.

[Cato]

We know 

Well, it was just in case some newer, younger members here at GMG had never heard of the cartoons.

[Christo]

Oh, agreed. Calvin was the typical dry, academic, abstract intellectual who thought himself endowed with the divinely ordained mission of saving the world from sin and error; spiritual pride and intellectual arrogance blinded him to his own sins and errors and turned him very early into a fanatical and ruthless ideologue. He was a kind of Lenin avant la lettre. 

The Carpathians are of course famous for their one-eyed cyclopes, vampires and tailed giants. But I didn't know Count Dracula had a brother called John Calvin.

To paraphrase George Orwell, your description bears no relation to any known facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. Which leaves me wondering: do you judge more often without having even the slightest notion of the subject? To confine myself now to the French humanist: next week I'll show your verdict to a friend who happens to be a connaisseur: he will be delighted to learn such grotesque agitprop is upheld by an academic. 

If you'd read Luther's biography (there are many fine ones; I read a dozen or so around 1983 but this year saw a new flood, some lying on the shelves behind me) instead of citing the usual cliché, you'ld know he was a great, but not a nice man. (In comparison Calvin was a trepid character, but also more modest and honest).

[bwv 1080]

Renaissance humanism bears little resemblence to the modern usage of the word, and seems to be defined contra medieval scholasticism and to embrace the idea that human reason can intrepet scripture.  By the renaissance definition Calvin was a humanist despite burning Michael Servetus at the stake and being an overall dour iconoclast, either of which gets you booted from contemporary humanism.

[kishnevi]

Corpus Iuris Civilis is the backbone of Roman Law, compiled in 529 -34 by order of the Roman Emperor Justinian.

First Dutch translation published in 1935-2011.

First German translation published in 1830-33.

Summa theologiae, written by St. Thomas Aquinas in 1265-74, is the backbone of the Roman Catholic Church's official theology.

First Dutch translation published in 1927-43.

First German translation published in 1886-92

May I point out that the only people who needed to know the contents of those works in the 19th century and earlier were lawyers, clerics and academics who had to know Latin to begin with.
Sounds to me as if the Dutch were just displaying their usual practicality.

BTW, my copy of Justinian's Institutes was published by North Holland in 1975, with offices in Amsterdam and Oxford: Latin and English translation in parallel columns, with English commentary after each section.

I suppose my New England origin and Luther's anti-Semitism combine to make me favor Calvin.

[Christo]

Renaissance humanism bears little resemblence to the modern usage of the word, and seems to be defined contra medieval scholasticism and to embrace the idea that human reason can intrepet scripture.  By the renaissance definition Calvin was a humanist

Of course he was. It's the contemporary usage of the term that explains the confusion, but this contempory 'Humanism' defies all relationship with original Humanism and is an unfortunate misnomer, IMO. The confusion even forces historians to describe pure humanists like Morus, Erasmus or Calvin as 'theologians', nowadays. 

[Florestan]

If Calvin's thoughts (of which I've provided some key points in his own words, but it seems nobody is actually interested in discussing the real thing) and actions (about which there has been only unsubstantiated denial) mean, and stand to, reason then I'll rather have madness.

I was going to continue my series on Calvin's "fine humanism" but given the aforementioned circumstances it would utterly pointless. While not retracting anything I've said, I'm out of here. See you on other threads.

[Christo]

The Germanic languages didn't even had enough, or proper, words for the multitude of concepts and ideas expressed in Latin --- until Luther, that is

The Luther myth again. Prof. Sabrina Corbellini could help you out: high literacy, the use of the vernacular, also in Bible translations and books, were common in Western Europe long before Martin Luther. As I told you before: Dutch as a cultural language (esp. in circles around the Burgundian court of the 15th century, but 13th century authors like Maerlant created marvels already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_van_Maerlant) developed earlier than High German and a whole bunch of Dutch Bible translations were widely in use long before the Reformation: https://www.rug.nl/staff/s.corbellini/research/publications.html 

[Christo]

If Calvin's thoughts (of which I've provided some key points in his own words, but it seems nobody is actually interested in discussing the real thing) and actions (about which there has been only unsubstantiated denial) mean, and stand to, reason then I'll rather have madness.

Your "reading" of Calvin's Institution reminds me of Richard Dawkins reading the Scriptures; i.e. with perhaps a little too little empathy. :-) (You seem to be confusing concepts like predestination or depravation with determinism & fatalism; which is very much besides the point.)  I'm afraid your imagination - Lenin! - is playing you tricks; in reality one could, with some effort, make a useful comparison between Luther and Lenin, but the temperate and destitute John Calvin .... no way.

I'm sure that those of your students who had, or will have, the good fortune of attending a traditional Romanian Christmas or Easter or even some other feast that Calvinism suppressed or never heard about, from the religious service to the subsequent meal and merriment, will never forget the experience and will long for repeating it.  As for Santa Claus, its super-commercial, ultra-consumerist incarnation is a quite recent import from the USA, a country with strong Calvinist roots. 

"Santa Claus religion" is the only thing many protestants around (not only students) can discern in Orthodox Christianity. Lecturing & preaching won't help: what we do is introduce them to places like (nearby) Chevetogne: https://www.monasteredechevetogne.com. And sometimes, if we were lucky, to some churches and monasteries around Timișoara, especially.

So yes: fully agree, thanks! But also: found it extremely helpful to read your distorted image of 'Calvinism' (i.e. Reformed protestants), an almost perfect mirror of the "Santa Claus prejudices" held by so many protestants & evangelicals against Orthodox.

Or is it your personal revenge on the calvinist Principality of Transylvania (close relation of the Dutch Republic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Transylvania_(1570–1711) and its present-day appearance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Reformed_Church_District ?   

[SimonNZ]

[Florestan]

Your "reading" of Calvin's Institution etc

I was not going to reply anymore, but... Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders. 

You confuse direct quotation with interpretative reading, and heartfelt hospitality with preaching & lecturing. No wonder, then, that you also confuse murderous tyranny with fine humanism, and pagan-inspired nonsense with God-revealed truth...

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you and all your loved ones!  0:)

[bwv 1080]

While not considered a saint by the major Orthodox churches, they do not consider Augustine a heretic

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx