Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 452950 times)

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Offline beclemund

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2007, 09:03:02 AM »
The Third is my favorite as well, Sarge. I only have Jochum's BPO, Tintner's RSNO, and Inbal's Frankfurt 3rds, however. The later two are both performances of the original version. Of those three, the Tintner performances is far and away my favorite. The Inbal recording seems a little muddy and lacks the clarity of the Naxos disc. I'm not sure if it was an issue of microphone placement or sound engineering. The RSNO also seems more committed to Tintner's vision and they play with real fervor. I cannot really place where the Jochum recording goes wrong for me, but I seldom make it through the entire symphony... much less the first movement.

We had an unexpected early closing at the office today, so on my way home, I visited the library for Karajan's 3rd (the disc doesn't specify a recording date, but it's a DG '81 release--the discography says '80 recording). I also picked up a '36 Böhm recording and Furtwängler's BPO 5th and 9th from '42 and '44 respectively. It will be a busy day of Bruckner. :)
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Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2007, 09:19:08 AM »
The Third is my favorite as well, Sarge. I only have Jochum's BPO, Tintner's RSNO, and Inbal's Frankfurt 3rds, however. The later two are both performances of the original version. Of those three, the Tintner performances is far and away my favorite. The Inbal recording seems a little muddy and lacks the clarity of the Naxos disc. I'm not sure if it was an issue of microphone placement or sound engineering. The RSNO also seems more committed to Tintner's vision and they play with real fervor. I cannot really place where the Jochum recording goes wrong for me, but I seldom make it through the entire symphony... much less the first movement.

You need to get Kubelik's 3rd with BRSO (Sony) and Haitink's 3rd with the VPO (on Philips). Tintner's orchestra is distinctly subpar.

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2007, 09:22:25 AM »
Barenboim's Berlin 9th (available separately from the box, I think) is probably the best thing in his cycle...which means it's very good indeed.

Very good, yes, but I still prefer the earlier CSO version.

Offline jwinter

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2007, 09:49:42 AM »
I have and enjoy Barbirolli's and Karajan's Gold (more expensive) live version.  :)

I assume you mean for the 8th?  I think Bill was asking about the 9th.  I like Barbirolli's 8th, but his BBC 9th is not so hot, and the sound is lousy IMO.

Lots of good recs here for the 9th.  I'll toss in another vote for Bruno Walter, though the Orfeo Kubelik is also superb.  Giulini is excellent as well, and certainly fits the slow & dark criteria (he also has a nice version on DVD with a rehearsal sequence, if you're into that sort of thing).  The Furtwangler is very intense, I don't think I'd recommend it as a first recording, but if you end up enjoying the 9th and want a 2nd alternative, look no further.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

George

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2007, 11:49:35 AM »
I assume you mean for the 8th?  I think Bill was asking about the 9th.  I like Barbirolli's 8th, but his BBC 9th is not so hot, and the sound is lousy IMO.

Lots of good recs here for the 9th.  I'll toss in another vote for Bruno Walter, though the Orfeo Kubelik is also superb.  Giulini is excellent as well, and certainly fits the slow & dark criteria (he also has a nice version on DVD with a rehearsal sequence, if you're into that sort of thing).  The Furtwangler is very intense, I don't think I'd recommend it as a first recording, but if you end up enjoying the 9th and want a 2nd alternative, look no further.

No I messed up worse than that. I was recommending M9.  ::)

Sorry about the confusion.  :-\

Offline beclemund

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2007, 11:52:43 AM »
I just finished listening to Böhm's 1936 4th with the Sächsische (aka Dresden) Staatskapelle. I have to say, it is a unique reading and hard to make out what exactly was "Romantic" about it ;). It is very quick--too much so; nicht zu schnell did not compute, I supose. I know some are on the outs with Böhm's '73 VPO recording because he does have relatively brisk timings, but it is wholy expansive compared to this early recording. The bright side, the scherzo is very aggressively 'moving' and really flies. It does not feel as energetic as Jochum's BPO sherzo even with the faster timings. But that may have more to do with the gorgeous DG sound on that Jochum cycle.

It also didn't help that the transfer source was probably not in very good shape (1995 Golden Memories). There was more hiss and popping than I could tolerate, and there seemed to be a warp in the source, so there is a background squeek that becomes more prominant as the needle approaches what would be the center of the record--moreso on the first two movements. It only accentuates the already frenetic performance... and not positively.

The transfer on Furtwängler's 1944 9th (1996 Iron Needle), however, is just about perfect... though it may only be due to listening to that bad recording just before it. :)
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Offline edward

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2007, 12:22:15 PM »
The transfer on Furtwängler's 1944 9th (1996 Iron Needle), however, is just about perfect... though it may only be due to listening to that bad recording just before it. :)
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2007, 12:28:45 PM »
I just finished listening to Böhm's 1936 4th with the Sächsische (aka Dresden) Staatskapelle. I have to say, it is a unique reading and hard to make out what exactly was "Romantic" about it ;). It is very quick--too much so; nicht zu schnell did not compute, I supose. I know some are on the outs with Böhm's '73 VPO recording because he does have relatively brisk timings, but it is wholy expansive compared to this early recording. The bright side, the scherzo is very aggressively 'moving' and really flies. It does not feel as energetic as Jochum's BPO sherzo even with the faster timings. But that may have more to do with the gorgeous DG sound on that Jochum cycle.

It also didn't help that the transfer source was probably not in very good shape (1995 Golden Memories). There was more hiss and popping than I could tolerate, and there seemed to be a warp in the source, so there is a background squeek that becomes more prominant as the needle approaches what would be the center of the record--moreso on the first two movements. It only accentuates the already frenetic performance... and not positively.

Interesting review. Thanks. One more bit of proof that performances overall have been getting slower and slower since the first half of the last century?

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Novi

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2007, 12:53:26 PM »
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.

The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:



or as a single disk from hmv japan.

 :)


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George

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2007, 12:57:04 PM »

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2007, 01:15:33 PM »
Very good, yes, but I still prefer the earlier CSO version.

As does the Hurwitzer. I suppose I am in the minority here but his Chicago Bruckner doesn't pull me in like the Berlin does. Come to think of it, there is very little Bruckner by American orchestras I do like. The Dohnányi/Cleveland Fifth. Szell's Eighth. That's about it. I'm sure M could tell us why that is  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline beclemund

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2007, 01:19:06 PM »
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.

Thank you for the heads up, Edward. I will be sure to find either the DG or Music & Arts release when I add this fine performance to my collection. I wonder what the library will do if I alert them to the nature of the pressing I borrowed from them.

The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:


That'll do it.  ;D

Thanks!
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Offline edward

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2007, 01:25:53 PM »
Thank you for the heads up, Edward. I will be sure to find either the DG or Music & Arts release when I add this fine performance to my collection. I wonder what the library will do if I alert them to the nature of the pressing I borrowed from them.
Probably nothing. The laws against piracy are effectively unenforceable when it it comes to such recordings (how do you prove it's someone else's transfer when extra filtering has been applied anyway?).

I just try to stay away from dubious labels like Iron Needle, Golden Memories, Grammofono 2000 and Urania (particularly when no remastering engineer is credited, or the one credited is the near-ubiquitous Alessandro Nava).
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2007, 01:28:46 PM »
As does the Hurwitzer. I suppose I am in the minority here but his Chicago Bruckner doesn't pull me in like the Berlin does. Come to think of it, there is very little Bruckner by American orchestras I do like. The Dohnányi/Cleveland Fifth. Szell's Eighth. That's about it. I'm sure M could tell us why that is  ;D

It depends. There is a lot of Bruckner by non-American orchestras that is equally not compelling. It's really more a function of the conductor, I think. But it's hard to fault Giulini's CSO 9th. Some of the Bruckner Masur did with NYPO was outstanding. The absolute hands down finest 8th I ever heard live was NYPO with Eschenbach (he's doing the 7th with the CSO at Ravinia this summer which I'm greatly looking forward to). I heard 4, 5, 7 and 9 live (in some cases multiple times) with Barenboim CSO all of which were outstanding, a Carnegie 4th and a Berlin tour 9th ranking among my most memorable Bruckner experiences ever. I'd have to say though that the most consistently great Bruckner I have heard live has been with the Concertgebouw (an unforgettable 7th with Chailly and a searing 9th with Haitink, in particular).

Offline beclemund

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2007, 01:45:59 PM »
Interesting review. Thanks. One more bit of proof that performances overall have been getting slower and slower since the first half of the last century?

It may have more to do with the evolution of recording media...
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Offline Bogey

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2007, 01:46:33 PM »
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

George

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2007, 01:48:12 PM »
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

Here's a sample of the Furtwangler:

Or here for $1.35: 

http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466

 :D



Offline Bogey

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2007, 01:54:05 PM »
Here's a sample of the Furtwangler:


What is the date on that George and who is the ensemble....it is quite good.

Never mind buddy, got it!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 02:04:35 PM by Bogey »
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2007, 02:06:16 PM »
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

The Furtwängler is so powerful it's classified Cosmic Top Secret Atomal. Luckily, I have that clearance. I'm only authorized to give you short clips though.

Furtwängler Ninth

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Novi

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2007, 03:23:06 PM »
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

Walter can be found here, assuming we're talking about the ColSO recording. The samples for the 9th are the 4th row down :).

Haitink, Concertgebouw.
Durch alle Töne tönet
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