Bruckner's Abbey

[Keemun]

The MP3 of the 9th is still available for free, from Amazon, if you're interested.

Thanks, Navneeth.  I've not heard Tintner's 9th, and since it is free, I will listen to it to see if it is any better than the others I've heard. 

[DavidW]

Tintner/Naxos 00-3 symphonies are very good in modern sound, but 4-9 do not hold up against much stronger versions

Now that Karajan/DG boxset is widely available at low prices best complete sets for me are definitely Karajan and  Jochum

That is my impression with Tintner as well, and Jochum.   I still plan on getting the whole Karajan set, his 7th though is wonderful.

[Herman]

I'd say his works are essentially unperformable, so almost every recording brings something to the fore that I have missed in other recordings. 

What makes you say Bruckner is essentially unperformable?

[Renfield]

Re Tintner, I largely agree with Lethe. I wouldn't rank his cycle in the top 3, but he has insight and idiom aplenty, to make up for the occasional dragging tempo, and orchestral fluff. And his 9th is really very good!

Probably the only one in his cycle that is near-uniformly good, though. I think that's where the problem lies.


That said, I prefer almost all of Tintner's Bruckner to Karajan's recording of the 6th, if we're talking 'alternative vs. mainstream'.

[Scarpia]

What makes you say Bruckner is essentially unperformable?

Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.

[kishnevi]

Others that come to mind are López-Cobos (relentlessly second-tier in almost anything he does) and Davis (including a magnificently irksome 9th on LSO Live).

Edit: although on consideration, the Davis could possible not be considered a "run-through" - as to get everything so wrong requires some kind of close attention.

Hmm.   I always knew there was a reason I didn't like that recording....

[Renfield]

Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.

Have you heard Bruckner live? Despite not generally having problems with Bruckner, I was still very impressed at the amount of detail that comes through in a live performance, provided the orchestra and conductor are up to snuff.

So I might correct that statement (as far as I'm concerned) to 'essentially unrecordable'.

[Herman]

Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.

This goes for pretty much all symphonic music after Schubert, when you're having to listen to it at home. But I don't think Bruckner is that dense, since his textures are usually quite straightforward. His orchestration is not really that terribly complex (and I'm not saying it's dumb); there's a large YSWYG element in Bruckner's music.

And of course it's much better to listen to Bruckner live. Not only do you get to hear much more (and the eye assists the ear), but that sense of shared awe is an integral part of Bruckner's music.

[greg]

But I don't think Bruckner is that dense, since his textures are usually quite straightforward. His orchestration is not really that terribly complex (and I'm not saying it's dumb); there's a large YSWYG element in Bruckner's music.

I agree with this- just look at a Bruckner score and then look at a score with anything that comes later- for example, Strauss, Mahler, Schoenberg, etc. Bruckner isn't simple, but he's simpler than their scores, though that's only natural given how music evolved.

[Sergeant Rock]

Tintner/Naxos 00-3 symphonies are very good in modern sound, but 4-9 do not hold up against much stronger versions

That is my impression with Tintner as well

And my impression too....which is why I stopped collecting his cycle after acquiring 1, 2 and 3. But I realize that's unfair and I owe him a fair hearing so I've ordered 4, 7, 8, 9 and 00. They are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great. You know, though, Hurwitz loves Tintner. This will be another opportunity to see if the Hurwitzer and I agree. 

Sarge

[Scarpia]

They are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great.

Except time...

[Sergeant Rock]

Except time...

Heck, I waste time all the time. I'm here, aren't I? 

Besides, I'm not yet convinced his Bruckner isn't worth hearing.

Sarge

[DavidW]

And my impression too....which is why I stopped collecting his cycle after acquiring 1, 2 and 3. But I realize that's unfair and I own him a fair hearing so I've ordered 4, 7, 8, 9 and 00. They are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great. You know, though, Hurwitz loves Tintner. This will be another opportunity to see if the Hurwitzer and I agree. 

Sarge

Tintner introduced me to #8 (after liking his recordings of #1-3) and left me COLD, which was a first for a Bruckner symphony.  I thought it was the symphony.  But I bought another recording, Maazel, and then I really started liking it.

[Scarpia]

Heck, I waste time all the time. I'm here, aren't I? 

Besides, I'm not yet convinced his Bruckner isn't worth hearing.

Sarge

Well, he performs the original version which, among other things, has the original loud ending of the first movement.  Probably every Bruckner nut should have at least one recording of this version of the 8th.  I have Inbal, so I'm set. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Tintner introduced me to #8 (after liking his recordings of #1-3) and left me COLD, which was a first for a Bruckner symphony.  I thought it was the symphony.  But I bought another recording, Maazel, and then I really started liking it.

I'm not surprised...that is the best Bruckner 8th (well, I think so anyway  )

Well, he performs the original version which, among other things, has the original loud ending of the first movement.  Probably every Bruckner nut should have at least one recording of this version of the 8th.  I have Inbal, so I'm set. 

I have Inbal too but I find it rather boringly played. That's one reason I'm investing in Tintner--hoping for a more interesting interpretation (that and because it's the only way to get his recording of Die Nullte).

Sarge

[Renfield]

his recording of Die Nullte).

That one is actually really good. Or: I like that one a lot. Enough to feel that it justifies the purchase of two discs also containing a dud 8th.

[Sergeant Rock]

Renfield, a few pages back, mentioned Norrington's Bruckner Sixth--which peaked my interest. I bought that Sixth (plus 3, 4 and 7).



I've heard it several times now and compared it with a few other Sixths in my collection. Two things are noticable immediately (and will come as no surprise): swift tempos and strings played without vibrato. As someone who has lived by the motto, Bruckner cannot be played too slowly...and the slower the better, I would have been violently opposed to Norrington's choice of tempos a few years ago. But Dohnányi, among other conductors, has shown me that in the Fifth and Sixth symphonies, anyway, a swifter more dramatic, slashing approach to music that is essentially undramatic can actually work. Norrington's first movement sounds bracing not objectionable.

The violins do sound anemic, though, sometimes very undernourished. That seems to be a result of both the lack of vibrato and Norrington's decision to let the winds and brass be more prominent in the mix. If you want a large, lush string sound Norrington will not oblige but that has the benefit of uncovering much detail in the brass and woodwind which is projected with startling clarity. Timpani too make quite an impact (I found myself wishing Bruckner had written a few more entries for the timps. Where's Marthé when you need him?  ).

In the past Norrington often disappointed me in slow movements: so emotionally neutral as to become a parody of the stiff-upper-lipped Englishman. Not so here. It's the most moving thing I've ever heard him do. The weak strings, strongly projected winds and brass reveal some shocking, painful dissonances in this movement that are damn near heartbreaking.

There is nothing particulary controversial about the Scherzo. But that Finale...!!!  I laughed initially. No...he can't be serious. Timings from the beginning of the movement to the beginning of the lyrical second subject:

Fürtwängler     1:52
Klemperer        1:52
Stein                1:51
Dohnányi         1:48
Celibidache      1:43
Norrington       1:27 

Total time for Norrington's last movement: 12:08

Imagine Norrington, on the podium, slam dancing. That's what I heard   ...and I liked it! Yeah, it completely ignores Bruckner's doch nicht zu schnell instruction. That should make it wrong, and I suppose it is wrong. The second subject, marginally slower, still doesn't sound quite right at this speed. But in the development Norrington does slow down, begins to dig deeper and uncovers all the beauty and mystery that's in the music. The chorale in the recapitulation is caressed lovingly before he sprints to the finsh. Listened to a second, and a third time, the dramatic contrasts in tempo begin to make sense. He won me over anyway. The audience responds with, I assume, shocked silence and only slowly begins an ovation...turning rowdy as the recording fades away. Wish I'd been there.

This goes into the favorites pile along wth Celibidache, Klemperer, Stein, Dohnányi.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

This goes into the favorites pile along wth Celibidache, Klemperer, Stein, Dohnányi.

Sarge

I've never had the urge to listen to a Norrington recording a second time, but now you have me curious.  That is an accomplishment in itself.   

[Sergeant Rock]

I found this little gem in a capsule review of Norrington's Fourth (the symphony with the main theme played by the horn):

"Had Wagner's Siegfried been blessed with a brain, his journey might have sounded like this."   

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I've never had the urge to listen to a Norrington recording a second time, but now you have me curious.  That is an accomplishment in itself.   

Ah, good...then my work here is done. Time for supper. 

Sarge