Bruckner's Abbey

[jlaurson]

They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Best FF-Chain. Deserves Bruckner. But ironic, because Bruckner, as we all know, delivers a whopper of a symphony.

[Sergeant Rock]

Best FF-Chain. Deserves Bruckner. But ironic, because Bruckner, as we all know, delivers a whopper of a symphony.

They were the best. Before you were born Arby's actually roasted real unprocessed beef and served it rare or medium rare on good buns. I recall how great those sandwichs were in the 60s. One of the first Arby's, possibly the first outside Youngstown OH, was in Akron, just a few miles from my home.

Sarge

[Brian]

For the non-Americans here, in the U.S. there exists a fast-food chain called "Arby's" which specializes in Roast Beef sandwiches (R-B = "Arby's").

They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Put it this way: when I get back to the United States, I will go to an Arby's and buy a meal solely to support their decision to broadcast Bruckner!

[mahler10th]

Oh yea, I would like to Honour Bruckners favourite student, Hans Rott, by making an advert featuring EXTRAWURST, for all those impoverished in Germany and Austria - the sountrack to which will of course be the completely inappropriate opening of Bruckner 8, 4rth movement.
Tarum tarum tarum tarum tarum da - da da -da da da....etc.  Lets hear it for...products!
Pah!

[MishaK]

Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?

[asin]B00475E136[/asin]

I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

[kishnevi]

Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I played that recording last night, in one of my periodic attempts to interface better with Bruckner, and once again found it to be exactly what you describe:  technically perfect and emotionally frigid--which I know it need not be, since I have Boulez's recording with the VPO.

[jlaurson]

Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?



I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I've not head the performances live; but I do have the set. It was slightly before Maazel's descent into super-boredom... and praised locally... but then that's no guide by which to determine the quality of the recordings. Sarge has listened to them more than I do, I believe... if and when I have a firmer opinion, I might pipe up again.

[Sergeant Rock]

Yo, Jens
Are you by chance familiar with this set?

Sarge has listened to them more than I do, I believe...

I've been listening in numerical order and have heard the first five, 0 through 4. I like what I've heard so far, and it's what I expected from hearing Maazel's Bruckner live (a Fifth with Cleveland, a Third with Vienna). In general he employs swifter than normal slow movements, and slower than normal outer movements, sometimes approaching Celi territory: an eighteen minute Die Nullte first movement; a First with an 18 minute Finale; a 31 minute Ninth first movement; a Second with a Finale three minutes slower than Barenboim's already slow pace!). He holds the orchestra in a very tight grip, making them, to use a circus analogy, jump through hoops like a lion tamer (i.e., the occasional eccentric phrasing or odd rhythmic distortion). He tends to elongate each symphony's final notes. The recording quality is very good: detailed, lovely lower brass and very prominent tympani. Audience isn't intrusive but applause is included.

If the "great" Bruckner symphonies are as good as the first five (I was only disappointed with the First--but that's my least favorite anyway), this could become my favorite cycle alongside Celi and Barenboim. You wrote:

I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

That was my problem with the Cleveland performances I heard at Severance and Blossom in the 70s. It was as though he refused to "let go" completely; that he played down the emotional element. But whether he's changed or I have, I am moved by his Bruckner now. I can't guarantee you will be. (See kishnevi's comment about the Eighth. I love the Berlin Eighth and expect to enjoy the SOBR performance.)

Sarge

[Scarpia]

Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?

[asin]B00475E136[/asin]

I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I'm quite interested in this set (based on the very good recording of the 8th on EMI), but my problem is to justify another Bruckner cycle given that I already have quite a few that I am very happy with.  But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.  There are other recordings of his that I found unconvincing, mainly the Mahler cycle with the VPO.

[MishaK]

I've been listening in numerical order and have heard the first five, 0 through 4. I like what I've heard so far, and it's what I expected from hearing Maazel's Bruckner live (a Fifth with Cleveland, a Third with Vienna). In general he employs swifter than normal slow movements, and slower than normal outer movements, sometimes approaching Celi territory: an eighteen minute Die Nullte first movement; a First with an 18 minute Finale; a 31 minute Ninth first movement; a Second with a Finale three minutes slower than Barenboim's already slow pace!). He holds the orchestra in a very tight grip, making them, to use a circus analogy, jump through hoops like a lion tamer (i.e., the occasional eccentric phrasing or odd rhythmic distortion). He tends to elongate each symphony's final notes. The recording quality is very good: detailed, lovely lower brass and very prominent tympani. Audience isn't intrusive but applause is included.

If the "great" Bruckner symphonies are as good as the first five (I was only disappointed with the First--but that's my least favorite anyway), this could become my favorite cycle alongside Celi and Barenboim. You wrote:

That was my problem with the Cleveland performances I heard at Severance and Blossom in the 70s. It was as though he refused to "let go" completely; that he played down the emotional element. But whether he's changed or I have, I am moved by his Bruckner now. I can't guarantee you will be. (See kishnevi's comment about the Eighth. I love the Berlin Eighth and expect to enjoy the SOBR performance.)

Sarge

Sarge, thanks for your detailed comments. Sounds interesting enough, though I wonder whether after slowing down the outer movements and speeding up the adagios there is sufficient distinction left in the tempo relationships. I guess it's mostly the orchestra that makes this interesting to me. I do love what Kubelik did with the BRSO in Bruckner.

I'm quite interested in this set (based on the very good recording of the 8th on EMI), but my problem is to justify another Bruckner cycle given that I already have quite a few that I am very happy with.  But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.  There are other recordings of his that I found unconvincing, mainly the Mahler cycle with the VPO.

Scarpia, you make two excellent points. I too have a number of Bruckner cycles I'm happy with and can't necessarily justify another purchase (considering also the postman should be bringing Wand's Cologne cycle today!). And you are right I was unfair to Maazel. I completely forgot his scorcher of a Sibelius, though the one I have is with Vienna. I did hear Maazel conduct Mahler live with Vienna at Carnegie, and it is that, as well as parts of his recorded cycle on Sony, that left me rather cold. The Mahler 5 he did at Carnegie was possibly the most technically perfect demonstration of the piece I have ever heard, but completely devoid of the roller-coaster, edge-of-seat intensity that the best can generate. The Meistersinger overture they delivered as an encore was better.

[Sergeant Rock]

But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.

I should have said, "that was my problem with some Cleveland performances" because, yes, his Sibelius is superb. In fact it was his Severance Fifth, part of his first Cleveland concert as the new music director, that made me a Sibelius fan. In any case I've become something of a Maazel fan in my, and his, old age. If I could go back in time, to the seventies, I wonder if I'd change my mind about some of the performances I dismissed then.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

I should have said, "that was my problem with some Cleveland performances" because, yes, his Sibelius is superb. In fact it was his Severance Fifth, part of his first Cleveland concert as the new music director, that made me a Sibelius fan. In any case I've become something of a Maazel fan in my, and his, old age. If I could go back in time, to the seventies, I wonder if I'd change my mind about some of the performances I dismissed then.

Are you enjoying his 70's Brahms cycle?

[kishnevi]

I did hear Maazel conduct Mahler live with Vienna at Carnegie, and it is that, as well as parts of his recorded cycle on Sony, that left me rather cold. The Mahler 5 he did at Carnegie was possibly the most technically perfect demonstration of the piece I have ever heard, but completely devoid of the roller-coaster, edge-of-seat intensity that the best can generate. The Meistersinger overture they delivered as an encore was better.

Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

Thread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.   

[Scarpia]

Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

Thread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.

If you don't like Bruckner, how can you judge whether Maazel is a good Bruckner performer?

[Sergeant Rock]

Are you enjoying his 70's Brahms cycle?

I've only heard the Second so far but like it better than either Szell's or Dohnányi's Cleveland performances.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

My major problem with Maazel's M5 is that he plays the chorale in the second movement too fast relative to my favorite versions. But I think his Mahler First, Second, Fourth (especially the Fourth!) and Seventh are great.

Thread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.

I guess I'm weird  I love both Boulez and Maazel in the Eighth--my favorites, in fact, along with Carlos Païta, Celi, Szell and Furtwängler '44.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

My major problem with Maazel's M5 is that he's plays the chorale in the second movement too fast relevative to my favorite versions. But I think his Mahler First, Second, Fourth (especially the Fourth!) and Seventh are great.

Maazel's VPO M2 was terrific.  The M5 seemed to disjointed to me, it is hard to articulate why I did not feel compelled by it.  Perhaps my favorite thing by Maazel is the Holst, Planets, by the Orchestre National de France, Columbia->Sony.



One of the first CDs I ever owned, and still a favorite.

I guess I'm weird  I love both Boulez and Maazel in the Eighth--my favorites, in fact, along with Carlos Paita, Celi, Szell and Furtwängler '44.

Sarge

Boulez hasn't grabbed me in Bruckner (or Mahler).  I enjoy his work a lot in the more modern works where the clarity of texture he achieves is astonishing.

[Lethevich]

Silly question time: what do you think about the positioning of the middle movements in his 7th symphony? I can understand why Bruckner reversed them after this one. By the time we reach the 8th, the mature symphony most representative of his final thinking (that was completed, natch), the weight of the adagio was essential to place before Bruckner's now even further increasing focus on the finale as the crown of the piece. In the 8th, the scherzo being placed before the finale would essentially trivialise it.

The problem with the 7th is that it lacks all of the complete characteristics that Bruckner developed in the 8th - the finale is much less impressive, yet the adagio is his first one that breaks 20 minutes (and while it's not as long as the last two, it appears that conductors feel more able to slow the tempo to further increase the length than in earlier ones), meaning that the weight of the symphony is placed on the first two movements, leaving the final two marginalised. I'm not sure that I would endorse Colin Davis style movement swapping (which he did in a German radio recording), but the work feels like a problem piece to me due to the length of the adagio. If it wasn't any larger than the ones that came before I think that it would feel more coherent.

[kishnevi]

If you don't like Bruckner, how can you judge whether Maazel is a good Bruckner performer?

I did not say I didn't like Bruckner.  I said I had not yet fallen in love with him, which is a quite different thing.
I don't put him on the CD player every chance I get (unlike Bach and Mahler),  but I certainly don't run from him.
I simply do not see in him the greatness which others apparently find in him.

That said,  I think I can fairly judge Maazel's BPO 8--which struck me as emotionally lifeless--and I know from the Boulez recording this  symphony is far from emotionless.

[Scarpia]

That said,  I think I can fairly judge Maazel's BPO 8--which struck me as emotionally lifeless--and I know from the Boulez recording this  symphony is far from emotionless.

You don't seem to recognize that the "emotionally lifeless" impression has more to do with you than Maazel, especially in view of the fact that a fair number of people report the opposite impression of this recording.