Bruckner's Abbey

[André]

I have had it for a few years on my shelves but never had the nerves occasion to listen to it: Peter Jean Marthé' s 2006 Neufassung of the Third symphony. For those who know this conductor, they will have an idea that this is a curate's egg of the strangest variety. For those not in the know, Marthé has a reputation as both a maverick and a kook in the Bruckner world.

Here in the Third he put versions of 1873, 1877 and 1889 in the mixer, threw in the 1876 Adagio for good measure, reorchestrated bits here and there (contrabass tuba, cymbals), reworked the order of the inner movements (why not ?) and conjured up the ghost of Celibidache to produce this potent, eccentric mixture, lasting 88 minutes, or 35 minutes more that the Jochum DG everyone knows. Recorded in the extra-long reverb space of the St-Florian StiftsBasilika for a modicum of historical endorsement and authenticity.

Well, I liked it. I will not come back to it often, but I was impressed. The guy has king size cojones all right, but he still produces musical results that have cogency and validity.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Cross-posting here from the WAYLT thread so our correspondence will have a bit more shelf life:

D.D. always makes great recs. And this is a disc I've had in my wish list since he mentioned it a few months back. Must...pull...the...trigger...soon! 

Speaking of great recs, I just received Dohnnayi's Bruckner 4th you recommended, GS. I'm under the weather right now so I'm not sure when I can get to it but a spot-listen promises great things!

[Cato]

I have had it for a few years on my shelves but never had the nerves occasion to listen to it: Peter Jean Marthé' s 2006 Neufassung of the Third symphony. For those who know this conductor, they will have an idea that this is a curate's egg of the strangest variety. For those not in the know, Marthé has a reputation as both a maverick and a kook in the Bruckner world.

Here in the Third he put versions of 1873, 1877 and 1889 in the mixer, threw in the 1876 Adagio for good measure, reorchestrated bits here and there (contrabass tuba, cymbals), reworked the order of the inner movements (why not ?) and conjured up the ghost of Celibidache to produce this potent, eccentric mixture, lasting 88 minutes, or 35 minutes more than the Jochum DG everyone knows. Recorded in the extra-long reverb space of the St-Florian StiftsBasilika for a modicum of historical endorsement and authenticity.

Well, I liked it. I will not come back to it often, but I was impressed. The guy has king size cojones all right, but he still produces musical results that have cogency and validity.

Many thanks Andre' for this information!   A modicum of authenticity: well, at least Marthé did not have a seance with Bruckner to create a fifth movement!

[knight66]

Well André, that got my juices flowing.....in a good way. It is half past six a.m.; but I am treating the household to the Marthé Third Remix from Spotify and am enjoying it. I hope the others are too, they should be up and about anyway.

Thanks,

Mike

[André]

Worth a listen for the adventurous, I say. For the others, it's still worth a listen. You never know when the Bruckner ghost will seize you...

[Wanderer]

I also tried the opening of his Third on Spotify yesterday but it didn't stir much interest; too slow and not at all mysterious as it should be. I'll return to it at some other time. The (his) Ninth's finale sounded much more interesting, in a perverse kind of way.

[Brian]

I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

[Ken B]

I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

I meant to reply but must have forgotten. I picked up three of the Chicago cheap at the local used CD store. The owner's a lucky fellow; he got me to pay twice what he gave me a few months later.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

I've only heard bits and pieces of both cycles. On the whole, I prefer the Berlin - it was DB's second go-round and his conception seemed more mature. I do like the punchy CSO account of the 1st Symphony, an underrated work. I love the Berlin 8th as a fast and dramatic reading: reminds me a bit of Mravinsky's take, but with much better sound.

[jlaurson]

I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

Chicago is brash and brassy and impetuous... to the point where the 4th is actually quite a lot of fun again.

Berlin (Phil) I never liked; particularly not the 5th, although the First and Ninth are excellent. The sound isn't all that great, I noticed on revisiting... quite noisy.

Despite my personal disinclination to either, I'd say that the Berlin is probably the more interesting, perhaps even the more worthwhile one.

In any case, it's his THIRD cycle (DVD and CD on Accentus and DG) that is shaping up to be his easily best yet! Stunning Fourth and very fine Fifth, so far. (Sloppy as f&#* Salzburg / WPh 4th this year at the S'burg Festival.)

See also: Survey of Bruckner Cycles

[EigenUser]

I just listened to this outstanding BBC radio special on Bruckner 6. Has anyone seen it before?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01znsdm

[Mirror Image]

I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel.

[vandermolen]

I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel.

Great work, especially in the old Klemperer EMI recording. Anyone hear the Tintner Bruckner 5 on Testament? Bought my Bruckner-loving brother the Van Beinum set on Decca.

[Cato]

I just listened to this outstanding BBC radio special on Bruckner 6. Has anyone seen it before?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01znsdm

Thanks for the link: I will need to wait until this afternoon to hear it.

I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel.

Amen!  "Die Sechste ist die Keckste!"

[André]

True story (fresh slice of life - it happened two days ago). My old friend who usually abhorrs all things brucknerian, asked me for a recommendation (read: borrowing from my collection) for the 4th. I suggested: "Why not listen to the first couple of minutes in a few versions ?" I played the following versions (beginning of I, up to appr. 2:30):

Otmar Suitner and the Berlin RSO
Barenboim and the CSO
Böhm and the WP
Oundjian and the Toronto SO
Klemperer ad the BRSO

He was very surprised at the variety of approaches - different works, almost. He rejected Barenboim  ("pompier" - or trashy - he said) and chose Böhm and Klemp. I wonder what he'll come out with when I see him again in a couple of months.

[jlaurson]

True story (fresh slice of life - it happened two days ago). My old friend who usually abhorrs all things brucknerian, asked me for a recommendation (read: borrowing from my collection) for the 4th. I suggested: "Why not listen to the first couple of minutes in a few versions ?" I played the following versions (beginning of I, up to appr. 2:30):

Otmar Suitner and the Berlin RSO
Barenboim and the CSO
Böhm and the WP
Oundjian and the Toronto SO
Klemperer ad the BRSO

He was very surprised at the variety of approaches - different works, almost. He rejected Barenboim  ("pompier" - or trashy - he said) and chose Böhm ...

What intuitive, wonderful ears! :-)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/11/dip-your-ears-no-163-visual-bruckner.html

...[T]he popular Fourth Symphony, with the Berlin Staatskapelle live from the Berlin Philharmonic
Hall is his most natural, satisfying Bruckner yet, not so youthful brash and stridently impressive as
his Chicago iterations (DG), not as polished and strangely listless...

[André]

Coincidentally, as I write I am listening to the 7th in the Barenboim BP set. Very nice, if not of the utmost profundity or naturalness of utterance. Pacing is slightly too even and unvaried, with extra smooth peanut butter textures. I got a little impatient midway in the slow movement. At that point the tempo has to pick up some speed to generate the required urgency.

This is easily the most elusive and hard to 'get' Bruckner symphony.

This Barenboim effort succeeds in not putting a foot wrong. What's missing is missing, and what's there is fine. But the work demands a little more: the conductor must pick up and exploit one of the red lines that crisscross the work. For sheer brainy AND beautifully contoured conducting, I chose Böhm and the WP. For the utmost in elegance, emotion and elevated spirituality, Giulini and the WP. For grandeur, massiveness allied to gritty strength, Blomstedt and the Staatskapelle, Dresden. For deliquescent self-absorption in the most comfy Simmons Beautyrest framework: Karajan and the WP. For nerve, resolve, splendid determination and the ability to ejaculate at just the right time: Beinum and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw.

And so on and so forth. I would be remiss not to mention the felicities of Schuricht, Haitink II, Rögner, Wand Cologne and probably another half dozen I'm too lazy to detail at this time - Sanderling, Böhm BRSO, Gielen, Rudolf, Knappertsbusch... The list is far from exhaustive. There are even versions by Toscanini and Charles Munch (not recommended) 

[André]

New listenings. Herbert Blomstedt' s 7th in Dresden has for some years been my favourite performance. I'm not among those who think this is the Master's best work. Blomstedt makes it sound so organic, powerful, divinatory. Therefore I was curious to her his Romantic from the same forces and stable (the Denon recording crew).

Blomstedt's Romantic has all these virtues, and then some: there is a real sense of symphonic allegroing, power, majesty, organic progression, mighty onward flow and splendidly virile playing from the indomitable Dresdeners. All captured in translucent, well-balanced sound (crank up the volume though, otherwise it will sound tame).

Daniel Barenboim's 5th in Berlin is very much like his misbegotten Chicago half-baked, too fast previous reading. The overall timing is ok. At 72 minutes it clocks in a few minutes slower (!) than one of my benchmarks, the wondrous Berlin RSO version under Suitner. And a full 6-7 minutes faster than my other benchmarks, Klemperer's New Philharmonia versions which, although slower offer a trenchancy and might that escape this on-off, on again, off again version. Barn-bing-bang-boom treats the work like it needs help, a mortal sin in Bruckner. The orchestra plays splendidly and is well recorded.

Listened to so far in this Barenboim Berlin cycle are symphonies 1-5 and 7. I count 2, 3 and 7 as successes, 1 as a good reading and 4, 5 as ill-conceived. Oh yes ! I forgot Helgoland (coupled with the 1st): one of Bruckner's very last works, Barenboim does it justice (not so in Chicago), but the Wyn morris version knocks it off (and all other contenders) with little apparent effort. One of the triumphs of the Bruckner discography.

[Cato]

New listenings. Herbert Blomstedt' s 7th in Dresden has for some years been my favourite performance. I'm not among those who think this is the Master's best work. Blomstedt makes it sound so organic, powerful, divinatory. Therefore I was curious to her his Romantic from the same forces and stable (the Denon recording crew).

Blomstedt's Romantic has all these virtues, and then some: there is a real sense of symphonic allegroing, power, majesty, organic progression, mighty onward flow and splendidly virile playing from the indomitable Dresdeners. All captured in translucent, well-balanced sound (crank up the volume though, otherwise it will sound tame).

Daniel Barenboim's 5th in Berlin is very much like his misbegotten Chicago half-baked, too fast previous reading. The overall timing is ok. At 72 minutes it clocks in a few minutes slower (!) than one of my benchmarks, the wondrous Berlin RSO version under Suitner. And a full 6-7 minutes faster than my other benchmarks, Klemperer's New Philharmonia versions which, although slower offer a trenchancy and might that escape this on-off, on again, off again version. Barn-bing-bang-boom treats the work like it needs help, a mortal sin in Bruckner. The orchestra plays splendidly and is well recorded.

Listened to so far in this Barenboim Berlin cycle are symphonies 1-5 and 7. I count 2, 3 and 7 as successes, 1 as a good reading and 4, 5 as ill-conceived. Oh yes ! I forgot Helgoland (coupled with the 1st): one of Bruckner's very last works, Barenboim does it justice (not so in Chicago), but the Wyn morris version knocks it off (and all other contenders) with little apparent effort. One of the triumphs of the Bruckner discography.

Many thanks for the comments, Andre'!

Concerning erratic readings of the Fifth: I recall a reviewer complaining about the DGG Jochum recording, which he liked until Jochum "halves" the speed for the  last pages of the Finale.  The reviewer believed that, if anything, a case should be made for an accelerando!

[TheGSMoeller]

Hello, Abbey,

I'm about to dive into Blomstedt's cycle with Leipzig, although quite slowly because it's a little expensive. Any comments on this cycle or the individual recoridngs? I'm mostly interested in the 3rd because of it being the original 1873 version, which I'm currently attempting to hear all those available.