Author Topic: The Boris Johnson thread.  (Read 114832 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2019, 09:56:38 AM »
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?
“Melody is the essence of music.” — Mozart

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2019, 11:53:01 AM »
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2019, 12:05:42 PM »
The comparatively small group of Conservatives who voted for Johnson are mainly white, male and over 50 (a category that I fall into, although I'm not a Conservative). They are unrepresentative of the country as a whole and yet Johnson's rise to power (due to fear of the pop-up Brexit Party) is being represented as 'The Will of the People' - all very deeply depressing. People are indeed losing faith in democracy.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Ken B

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2019, 12:57:47 PM »
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing. Once that was done though, and then a parliamentary vote as well, you simply must follow through. Otherwise what possible claim to legitimacy is there?

Donkeys seems a fair assessment from over here btw.
Do you know how many people are charged with a crime in England every year for Facebook posts? Around 3000. For facebooking! The Yorkshire police want to charge people for rudeness. Yes, the same cops who covered up Rotherham. (What kind of a country covers up the rape of its children? )The NHS has shortages. And parliament ...  Donkeys looks fair to me.

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2019, 02:06:40 PM »
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

So the EU has punished the UK, which is now the victim....

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges. It is true that when the UK decided to leave the EU, it lost its leverage to force any special treatment. Now it is Ireland's interests that take priority over that of a future outsider.

But let's also keep in mind that a hard Brexit will cost the EU €40 billion per year and will lead to a weakened position of Europe in the world. Close future economic and political cooperation with the UK is actually very much in the interest of the EU. But handing out special favours or damaging vital interests of a member state is not....

Welcome to the reality of international relations... Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost. Isn't it also the main reason for the UK to leave the EU?

Q
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 11:14:04 PM by Que »

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2019, 11:03:43 PM »
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Not by a long chalk. They just haven't helped. 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2019, 11:11:26 PM »
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Fair point, "donkey" is a bit strong. You are right about losing confidence in democracy as Parliament has not delivered what the nation voted for namely Brexit.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2019, 11:28:42 PM »
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 11:37:14 PM by Que »

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2019, 01:22:53 AM »
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
Yes, I largely agree. I wish that Sir Keir Starmer was the the Leader of the Labour Party and not Corbyn.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2019, 05:07:49 AM »
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q

A spot on analysis. The power behind the throne is a scruffy individual by the name of Dominic Cummings who is pulling Johnson's strings. Cummings is the man with a plan.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2019, 06:01:38 AM »
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2019, 06:58:21 AM »
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q

Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2019, 07:46:51 AM »
Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.

Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2019, 10:13:18 AM »
Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q

Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our current impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 10:27:58 PM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2019, 10:46:28 AM »
Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our currant impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.

I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 10:48:56 AM by Que »

Offline Que

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2019, 12:10:21 PM »

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2019, 10:32:29 PM »
I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q

Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Irons

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2019, 04:24:05 AM »
Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)

I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Florestan

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2019, 05:13:00 AM »
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy.

Can't blame them, can you?

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing.

Cameron's referendum is possibly the greatest blunder in UK's political history.

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges.

This.

Quote
Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost.

And this, too.
“Melody is the essence of music.” — Mozart

Online vandermolen

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Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2019, 08:46:19 AM »
I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
The failure of Labour to offer effective opposition is very demoralising in our current political climate and I agree with Florestan's point about the disastrous decision to hold that predictably divisive Referendum.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).