And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[Marc]

Yeah but how the USA works and how the RCC works are two different things. One is a constitutional republic, the other an absolute monarchy. The level of mental and psychological stress (which more often than not translate into physical one) experienced by the POTUS is much higher than the Pope's. The probability of an octogenarian POTUS with heart problems dying in office is alos much higher than such a Pope's.

John XXIII worked extremely hard though, despite health and age.
Organised the 2nd Vatican Council.
And had some hard-fought results.

(Although some of them seemed to have gone 'astray' nowadays.)

I meant to say: if a candidate represents your view or your wish for a change, just vote for him/her.
To me, age/health is less important than view or ideas.

I won't stop anyone voting for Sanders. I don't think he will win, but if he does, I will raise a glass of Dutch pilsener to him. And if he manages to get a few hard-fought results, well, kudos to him (in advance). But again, I don't think he's gonna beat Trump.

[Karl Henning]

There's no question that, if Bernie is the nominee, all the Democrats who turn out to vote, will vote for him.

We're just wondering who else will.

[greg]

There's no question that, if Bernie is the nominee, all the Democrats who turn out to vote, will vote for him.

Waiiit.. This is the weirdest statement. Was it meant as a joke? 😁

Like "there is no question that when he turns 13 he will become a teenager" type of obvious joke.

I mean some Democrats could technically vote for Trump but would they technically become Republican?

[Ratliff]

John XXIII worked extremely hard though, despite health and age.
Organised the 2nd Vatican Council.
And had some hard-fought results.

(Although some of them seemed to have gone 'astray' nowadays.)

I meant to say: if a candidate represents your view or your wish for a change, just vote for him/her.
To me, age/health is less important than view or ideas.

I won't stop anyone voting for Sanders. I don't think he will win, but if he does, I will raise a glass of Dutch pilsener to him. And if he manages to get a few hard-fought results, well, kudos to him (in advance). But again, I don't think he's gonna beat Trump.

I'm not so worried about his health. He may be at the nominal life expectancy, but people who lived to his age have a life expectancy of many more years.

[Marc]

Waiiit.. This is the weirdest statement. Was it meant as a joke? 😁

Like "there is no question that when he turns 13 he will become a teenager" type of obvious joke.

I mean some Democrats could technically vote for Trump but would they technically become Republican?

Waiiit... since when is Karl making jokes?

I read his entire comment in the context of the discussion about 'who will support Bernie to give him an advantage over Trump i.c. make him the next POTUS?'
(Because of his leftish ideas.)
So, first Karl kicked in an already opened door ("no question..."), but then came the real question.

Dead serious stuff, I assure you.

[greg]

Ok... I get it but..

the phrasing "Democrats who turn out to vote will vote" (for the only Democrat they will be able to vote for) made me laugh a little. 

[Marc]

Ok... I get it but..

the phrasing "Democrats who turn out to vote will vote" (for the only Democrat they will be able to vote for) made me laugh a little. 

I like to laugh.

Of course Karl himself will give a much better 'analysis' than I did. After all, he is the composer of the phrasing.
And I'm not 100 percent sure whether my interpretation was entirely HIP (Henningly Informed Performance).

[Florestan]

the 2nd Vatican Council.

Of which I am not a fan, honestly. Eliminating the Tridentine Mass and replacing it with the cringe-inducing, theologically and esthetically offensive Conciliar "Mass" was a major cultural crime.

[Marc]

Of which I am not a fan, honestly. Eliminating the Tridentine Mass and replacing it with the cringe-inducing, theologically and esthetically offensive Conciliar "Mass" was a major cultural crime.

I left the church.
My parents grew up during the more ole-fashioned days and they were as happy as children with the 2nd Council, that I do know. As were other family members who turned priest or nun.
My mum and dad still work, aged 80+, as volunteers for the church. I respect that a lot. But they are very sad that conservatism has gotten the upper hand again. Well... to each their own. The churches here are mostly empty. If I want a mass, I'll throw a cd in.

I'm not into 'churchy' or religious debates though, and it's also off-topic here. Just used John XXIII as an example of an almost dead but very lively ole grey. Just like Bernie.

[Ratliff]

There's no question that, if Bernie is the nominee, all the Democrats who turn out to vote, will vote for him.

We're just wondering who else will.

Jokes or non-jokes aside, if Sanders gets a plurality but not a majority and the superdelegates put their fingers on the scales and give the nomination to someone else then it is a lead pipe cinch that Trump is reelected. The Sanders supporters will be justifiably infuriated and will vote for anyone but the Democrat nominee.

[André]

Jokes or non-jokes aside, if Sanders gets a plurality but not a majority and the superdelegates put their fingers on the scales and give the nomination to someone else then it is a lead pipe cinch that Trump is reelected. The Sanders supporters will be justifiably infuriated and will vote for anyone but the Democrat nominee.

That's likely - if they bother to vote, that is. Either way, Trump wins.

[Florestan]

I left the church.
[...]The churches here are mostly empty.

Why, of course. The 2nd Vatican Council thought that the protestantization of the RCC will save it from depopulation. Grave error, both theological and psychological. To borrow Poju's language, why would people stick to a surrogate (post-2VC RCC) when they can have the real thing (the various truly protestant churches)? Perhaps more important, why would sincere Catholics stick to a Church which is no longer Catholic in its outward expression and appearance?

The top of this madness was reached in 2017 when the RCC joined in the celebration of the 500 years of Reformation. To see the Catholic Church celebrating the most catastrophic schism in its whole history and praising the man who started it all and savagely attacked it was a disconcerting spectacle even for a non-Catholic like me. Tbh, in my youth I seriously contemplated converting from Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism --- now I'm only too glad I eventually didn't. The Romanian Orthodox Church might not have all the merits of the RCC but it certainly has very few of the RCC's defects.

End of my churchy off topic.

[JBS]

You have your "facts" completely wrong. If DNC allows Bernie become the nominee you will learn this yourself the hard way.

The Dems tried a moderate candidate against Trump in 2016. Good luck finding a moderate who is more liked than Hillary. Obama had the kind of charisma which made him liked, but you are delusional if you think Buttigieg has Obama's charisma. Also, never fixing the core problem of oligarchy will keep people struggling and desperate meaning Trump-like authoritarian maniacs in the White House in the future.

1) Pretty much everyone who is running for POTUS is more likeable than Hillary. She lost because she personally was totally unlikeable. Hillary's policies did not lose her the election. Hillary's arrogance and corruption lost her the election.
2) Sanders won't fix the problem of oligarchy. He'll just replace them with bureaucrats.  From the POV of average people, it will still be the same: elites bossing the rest of us around.
3) His specific policies will likely make things worse for the average American. You are a convinced Leftist, so you naturally don't understand the basic problem with the progressive agenda: it wants to use government to fix problems that often can not be fixed by government. For them government is the first resort to solve a problem, when in fact government should only be the last resort, for things only government can solve.

[Karl Henning]

And what will you learn, yourself, "the hard way," Poju?  You're nearly as arrogant as Hillary, and less likeable.

[Herman]

You have your "facts" completely wrong. If DNC allows Bernie become the nominee you will learn this yourself the hard way.

The Dems tried a moderate candidate against Trump in 2016. Good luck finding a moderate who is more liked than Hillary.

Hillary was not much liked in 2016, even though she clearly won the popular vote.

A lot of people voted for her with their noses held.

That in itself is only normal, most politicians don't come across as yr best friend.

[Florestan]

Hillary was not much liked in 2016, even though she clearly won the popular vote.

A lot of people voted for her with their noses held.

That in itself is only normal, most politicians don't come across as yr best friend.

Amen! I've almost always voted *against* rather than *for* and in the two instances when I truly voted *for* I was eventually disappointed.

[71 dB]

Hillary was not much liked in 2016, even though she clearly won the popular vote.

A lot of people voted for her with their noses held.

That in itself is only normal, most politicians don't come across as yr best friend.

I know all of this. I got to know these things little over 3 years ago when I wanted to understand how a reality tv buffoon won the presidency. I also learned that Hillary lost the rust belt and how it cost her the election. If she had campaigned more progressive she would have gotten more votes in the rust belt and perhaps lose some moderate votes elsewhere, but she could have won. However, she is so utterly corrupt becoming her former seft, young progressive Hillary Clinton wasn't possible for her. My mistake in 2016 was seeing clips of younger Hillary and thinking she is a progressive (as she was advocating even single payer healthcare), but I didn't know how corrupt she had become since. That's what I learned about three years ago to understand why she lost the election to Trump. Some people are so easy to buy. Bernie is someone you can't buy. That's why the rich fear/hate him. They can't buy him. That's the reason why Bernie is the real deal.

Now, people seem to think the current "moderate" candidates are more liked than Hillary. I don't think they are. Biden perhaps, but not the others. The left despises them!

The establishment loves Buttigieg, but the left calls him a rat, a rodent. Mayor Cheat. This man is a dangerous opportunist. He is into this for himself, not for the people. This man sells his soul in a second for power. Yes, he is smart and can speak Norwegian (badly), but that's not what americans need.

Klobuchar is a Republican lite, whose only positive trade is her honesty of not lying about wanting to improve people's lives. She doesn't promise you healhtcare. Instead she tells you you can't have it. You want healthcare? Die away peasants! Rich people want more money! The left despises her Republican policies, but respect her honesty.

Mr. Bloomberg is a minimum wage rise blocking, authoritarian soda banning, stop and frisking Republican who calls himself now a Democrat. He is Trump lite and people on the left may stay home if it's Bloomberg vs Trump. If he is not better than Trump why bother? The only reason why Bloomberg is high in the polls is some people are politically total idiots and utterly ignorant. They support this oligarch because they see his tv adds 30 times a day! Crazy! Bloomberg is a mockery of whatever democracy there is left in the US.

Tom Steyer is the nicer billionaire in this race. Tom is actually likeable at times, but do americans really want a billionaire in the White House? Well, last time around they wanted a fake billionare Trump there... ...not saying Tom Steyer is a good candidate, but among the other "moderates" in the race he isn't particularly bad either. Of course Steyer has nearly zero chance of getting the nomination so that's that. Maybe he hopes to become Elizabeth Warren's VP or something...

Joe Biden is one of the more likeable moderates in the race, but it's because he has got this "friendly uncle" -like charisma and people have nostalgic memories of Obama's presidency, the times of "normalcy" when the president didn't write 20 crazy tweets every day. The problem with Biden is he is for status quo. Obama's "Not much change" presidency led to Trump. Biden's "Nothing will change" presidency would lead to another Trump, even more dangerous one. Also, Biden's mental health is clearly deterioating. Biden says the truth even himself: "My time is up" and "Vote for someone else." Biden's support is pretty soft and now that the myth of Biden being the most electable has been shattered, his support will deterioate. Looks like he will win in South Carolina, but that's about all he will win.

Elizabeth Warren doesn't know if she wants to be a progressive or a moderate so she moves somewere in between as a progressive lite. The left has started to dislike her and call her a snake, but she did it to herself keeping attacking Bernie in ridiculous ways. At one moment (when she was the most progressive she has been!) she was on top of the polls. Now she struggles getting any delegates and she seems to think the brokered convention will hand the nomination to her as a compromise between a moderate and a progressive candidate. However, there will be blood if the nomination is robbed again from Bernie. The left doesn't allow it to happen. Enough is enough.

[JBS]

Poju, you obviously have no idea of what Americans think about Hillary. You obviously have no idea of what the various candidates stand for, or what Americans think about them.

And you obviously haven't comprehended that a candidate whose entire platform consists of creating new government programs and expanding existing government programs is a candidate whose platform is based on taking power from the people over their own lives and handing it over to a army of government bureaucrats, and has a platform that is the opposite of populism. If it's bad for oligarchs to control our lives, it's also bad for bureaucrats to control our lives.  I don't want a politician who can't be bought. I want a system in which it doesn't matter if politicians are bought.

[greg]

Amen! I've almost always voted *against* rather than *for* and in the two instances when I truly voted *for* I was eventually disappointed.

I wish voting had this option... I would probably vote if this were the case. And would be hilarious if the winner had negative votes. Would show a more realistic portrayal of what people think.

[Karl Henning]

Gotta love how a Kulinski groupie casts our "facts" in scare-quotes.