Author Topic: The impact of music streaming services  (Read 3085 times)

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Online Mandryka

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2020, 05:44:19 AM »
One can replay to the same recordings from a streaming service again and again just like replaying a CD.  The musical experience is the same.

Of course. My point is about uses and attitudes.
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Offline Iota

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2020, 06:20:25 AM »


Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

I think - to the extent I have thought about it - you may have a point. The depth of choice streaming offers means it is perhaps more tempting to hear something new, whether work or performance, than revisit the familiar. I like this though, as I've got older I'm far more interested in exploring unheard repertoire/performances than numerous repeat listens, particularly early and modern repertoire ... Time's short and all that, and the less physical baggage as far as I'm concerned, the better.

Offline hvbias

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2020, 07:09:29 AM »


Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

You don't think it can be very hard to unlearn this type of behavior? If I knew for certain this music would be around forever on a streaming service and in CD quality (no watermarks) I'd like to think I could give up all my CDs/files I've ripped. I don't keep going back to keep relistening to stuff on streaming services (usually just buy it or not after a few listens) so I don't know if the following phenomena exists- on Netflix I've noticed many shows come and go or say things like "this will the last year this is offered".

I read some psychologist say that the reason we hoard stuff is in our mind prolonging our inevitable mortality.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 07:16:32 AM by hvbias »

Offline San Antone

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2020, 07:12:38 AM »
I don't think one can make any generalizations about listening behavior whether it is via streaming or listening to fixed media; some of us will have favorite recordings we listen to again and again no matter the method.

But what I think is going on is more related to what I'll call the "collector syndrome."  For some of us, owning a physical artifact is very important, and for some of us being a completist is rewarding when you see the assembled physical products on your shelf.  I used to be like that.  But I think what I was really doing was trying to create the kind of huge collection of music which I only experienced with the advent of streaming services.

I no longer value my CDs (except for the few that are not available otherwise) and have never been happier with the abundance of music available to stream.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2020, 07:18:14 AM »
I read some psychologist say that the reason we hoard stuff is in our mind prolonging our inevitable mortality.

Or maybe because we want to spend our time in the best way as long as we live.
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Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2020, 08:44:07 AM »
I guess I'm a Luddite. I've never used a streaming service; things like Qobuz and Spotify are just names to me and I have no interest in them. I'm also too lazy to rip my CDs to hard drive - it strikes me as a lot of work with little benefit. I've actually gone back in time and probably bought more LPs over the past couple of years than CDs.

The only vaguely streaming thing I do is check out new music via YouTube, for free. But if I really like something, I'm not going to content myself with You Tube listening.

Reading here about having "175,000 tracks" and so on makes me realize I am nowhere near as fanatical about hearing new music as some posters here. As time goes by, I am more involved in a quest for favorites, things that I'll still want to listen to years from now. The logic of this is that I should try to reduce my collection rather than increasing it.

This is also a reason for the focus on physicality; I want something that lasts, and can't be taken away by a hard drive failure or a company going bankrupt. Just the other day, I listened to a bunch of CDs that had in common the fact that I bought all of them in 1997. There were 3 levels of experience to this: 1. enjoying the music; 2. seeing how well the music had held up over the past 23 years; 3. remembering the year 1997 and what I was doing then.
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Offline hvbias

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2020, 08:52:37 AM »
Or maybe because we want to spend our time in the best way as long as we live.

Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence. 

Offline San Antone

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2020, 08:58:01 AM »
Quote
This is also a reason for the focus on physicality; I want something that lasts

Yesterday I pulled out a Miles Davis box (the Miles/Coltrane set) that I haven't played in a while.  The first disc had adhered to the cardboard sleeve and had paper debris stuck on it.  I tried to clean it off but gave up.  So far it still plays, but CDs are not permanent, I've had plenty that went bad after a while.

Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2020, 01:50:01 PM »
Nonsense.  One can replay to the same recordings from a streaming service again and again just like replaying a CD.  The musical experience is the same.

No. The fact that one CAN doesn’t mean that one DOES. You’re arguing that people don’t change their behaviour in the face of having a vast buffet of tracks to choose from, and there is ample evidence that they do. In fact a high percentage of listening on streaming services is done by using the playlists and algorithms that the services themselves create.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2020, 02:22:24 PM »
Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence.

I think what I'm arguing is that ebracing streaming is a means to liberation from the desire for permanence. In fact more, it leads to relishing impermanence. Streaming is a meditation practice, a path to enlightenment.  For this reason, people (like me) who use streaming as their primary means are closer to Zen Nirvana than poor benighted souls like you and amw, who are trapped in the Samsara of attachments.  As someone pointed out, CDs broze, get lost, get scratched.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 02:26:44 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2020, 03:18:23 PM »
Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence.

I think what I'm arguing is that ebracing streaming is a means to liberation from the desire for permanence. In fact more, it leads to relishing impermanence. Streaming is a meditation practice, a path to enlightenment.  For this reason, people (like me) who use streaming as their primary means are closer to Zen Nirvana than poor benighted souls like you and amw, who are trapped in the Samsara of attachments.  As someone pointed out, CDs broze, get lost, get scratched.

But can you be sure, that the recordings you love will stay available for streaming?
If I own a CD I can listen to it, when I want to. And what about SQ?

BTW I have collected CDs for more than forty years (amounting to maybe 15000 CDs - I haven't counted them recently, and I have also culled a lot of CDs in the course), but I have never met a CD which wasn't readable by my CD deck or PC drive, bronzing or not..
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2020, 03:32:42 PM »
But can you be sure, that the recordings you love will stay available for streaming?
If I own a CD I can listen to it, when I want to. And what about SQ?

BTW I have collected CDs for more than forty years (amounting to maybe 15000 CDs - I haven't counted them recently, and I have also culled a lot of CDs in the course), but I have never met a CD which wasn't readable by my CD deck or PC drive, bronzing or not..

I don't think anyone is arguing that streaming is "superior" to other forms of listening (although I do get a whiff of the opposite view).  For me it all boils down to personal priorities.  Just as you think that the impermanence of CDs is exaggerated, I feel that claims of the impermanence of streaming catalogs is also exaggerated. What might happen is subscription fees could increase.  But there will be a threshold above which most people will not pay.

What CD lovers should think about is how each year fewer and fewer CDs are manufactured and sold.  We may see a day when the only options for music are digital.


Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2020, 03:39:53 PM »
What CD lovers should think about is how each year fewer and fewer CDs are manufactured and sold.  We may see a day when the only options for music are digital.

That would be download, which already Presto and Amazon offer. If a recording is unavailable in the format of CD I am willing to pay for a download item even if I do not get the physical CD and often not even the booklet, But NB: I want lossless download.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2020, 06:24:13 PM »
That would be download, which already Presto and Amazon offer. If a recording is unavailable in the format of CD I am willing to pay for a download item even if I do not get the physical CD and often not even the booklet, But NB: I want lossless download.

Yes. Digital is not equal to streaming. (And digital isn't the right term anyway, as CDs are themselves digital.)

Mind you, Apple is talking about shutting down iTunes and basically trying to push everyone onto Apple Music. The companies love the reliability of subscription income.
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Offline aukhawk

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2020, 10:44:14 AM »
And what about SQ?

You won't quite manage it with spotify by the way, because of the sound quality, but it may not be important to you.

Sound quality is very important to me, and I do have decent equipment - and I can't hear any significant difference between Spotify premium and a hi-rez lossless download of the same recording.   Yes if I were to A/B them I might detect a difference, but I've done a bit of that (just for my own interest) and the results were not conclusive.

That doesn't entirely stop me buying stuff - the urge to posess seems to be very hard to break, and I do like to listen offline as well.

Offline Dowder

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2020, 09:26:52 PM »
Haven’t bought a CD in over 10 years. My Apple music subscription has worked out well for providing just about any kind of musical interest I have at a much cheaper price than purchasing everything individually.
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Offline Holden

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2020, 11:02:21 PM »
I have both Spotify and Tidal - Tidal has 'Master' copies and you can hear the difference. While most of my listening is via streaming, I do have the majority of my CDs and DVDs ripped to an external HD in 356 kbps mode. While this is compressed, I can't really hear too much difference, if any, from 44.1 Khz and I have some top end cans and iems which I use for listening.

It's the convenience of streaming that I like, knowing I can listen in good sound. When you are used to hearing historic performances, SQ takes on a whole new meaning.

I don't think Qobuz is available here in Australia.
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Online Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2020, 12:04:51 AM »
I have been using Qobuz since the end of April and it has been a very positive experience overall. Over 450 CD's listened to or sampled to date, including some major blind spots as i posted in the non-classical music thread over the last few weeks. I initially save what I want to listen to at some point in the Favourites and, once listened, if it "passes", it gets moved to a playlist (for future re-streaming or possible purchase for definite favourites).

To date, I have :

- one British classical playlist (50 albums or boxsets approx)
- one "Other" Classical playlist (40 albums or boxsets approx)
- a Rock/Folk playlist (55+ albums or boxsets)
- A "quieter, more melodic" classical playlist I have created for my partner (30+ CD's)

To explore and sample, I have about 370 CD left of various composers, the 60-odd CD's in the Vivaldi Naive collection and about 90-100 CD/boxsets of French composers (my next big project).

So, overall, very pleased with the outcome and way forward (considering the monthly cost of £14.99). It's been going so well that in the last 2-3 weeks I have been delving deeper into options to improve on my streaming equipment. So far, I have been doing my streaming with mid-range Sennheiser earbuds straight out of my laptop or phone (with around 20 CD downloaded offline on each source at any time). Whilst I am satisfied with the 320kb MP3 or the CD sound with the earbuds for exploring, I have been looking for instance at equipment options to make use of my high-end headphones instead with the High-Res versions available, either with my laptop or via my Hi-fi itself. That took me down the road for instance of the Ifi Zen Blue (Bluetooth to Hifi Amp's RCA) or Ifi Zen Dac (USB Dac+ headphone Amp for Laptop, plus option of RCA to Hifi as well) to integrate streaming fully and long term in my listening habits.

That was until Friday/Saturday. Like many of you, I got the Europadisc weekly email highlighting the specific offer on Chandos. Among my British playlist were the Bax Orchestral works (Vol.2 to 5) that I really liked, dead cheap with this offer. As these were readily available on Qobuz and I was looking at relying more on streaming moving forward, I ignored the Europadisc offer.

Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. (edit: quick count: 17/50 CDs "British" affected, 12/40 "Other" affected). Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos, Toccata and CPO CDs. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist is completely useless.

Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!

Whilst the content at hand remains exceptional for the price, this sudden loss or change of availability, particularly in your own playlists, certainly has put a damper on relying solely on streaming in the future.

I ended up buying the 4 volumes of Bax from Europadisc. I am now of the opinion to use Qobuz only for the next 5-6 months until I exhaust my list of favourites to explore, the Vivaldi Naive and the French stuff. I am now also keeping an Excel tab of what's on and being added to my playlists, not to be caught again by their sudden amendments and mark the items I'd really want as future additions to my collections. At least, the sieving exercise of my maiden composers remains worthwhile at least. For now. Not so sure anymore of going streaming only.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 12:17:32 AM by Papy Oli »
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Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2020, 12:18:22 AM »
Things becoming unavailable I can understand (and yes, this is one reason I will always go and buy the things I actually want to keep). And if for some reason a label pulls all its material then this could have a big effect.

But albums on your playlist changing into other albums... that frankly sounds like some kind of error. I don't use Qobuz (they're not available in Australia) but if I were you I would be contacting them rather than writing about it here.
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Offline Daverz

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2020, 12:34:21 AM »
Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos CD. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist useless.

Arrrrrrrrgggghghgh!  I hate this sort of thing.  I went looking for examples, and sure enough, Thomson Bax 3 on Chandos, the symphony tracks are only available as samples (greyed out). 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115845424

(On the other hand, I'm not sure if it might not have been that way all along, as I have this on physical disc and wouldn't have looked at it before.)

Odd that Chandos new releases (e.g. the Wilson/Sinfonia of London stuff) are not like this.  I wonder what their policy actually is about what to make only available as samples.  Here's another Parry set of songs with only 5 songs greyed out.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115243121

Hickox's recording of the 1913 A London Symphony, the symphony greyed out:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115990223

Quote
Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!

Sounds like a Qobuz database problem.  Also having used the service for more than a year, I note there are sometimes QC problems with the tracks themselves, particularly truncated tracks.  But that might be the labels' fault.