World class orchestras outside Europe and N.A. ?

[Bonehelm]

Outside from the ones we usually hear in famous recordings like BPO, VPO, Dresen, MPO, RCO, The American Five, what are some high level orchestras in say, Asia? or South America, or Oceania? I've heard Sydney symphony and New Zealand symphony are both pretty good.

[hautbois]

The Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra under Kees Bakels was world class without a doubt, they still are (Bakels has since left, replaced by Matthias Bamert), but only under certain guest conductors. BIS released the 4 cd complete set of the Korsakov cycle they did under Bakels, you will NOT be dissapointed with it, and it is absurdly priced as well:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1667-68

Howard

[Rabin_Fan]

The Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra under Kees Bakels was world class without a doubt, they still are (Bakels has since left, replaced by Matthias Bamert), but only under certain guest conductors. BIS released the 4 cd complete set of the Korsakov cycle they did under Bakels, you will NOT be dissapointed with it, and it is absurdly priced as well:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1667-68

Howard

I beg to differ that the MPO is world-class Howard. Perhaps when Maazel conducted them, they sounded like the NYPO - just for 1 night. The rest of the time - they are just a good orchestra - not-world class. This is coming from me - and I have seen the BPO with Karajan, Philharmonia with Muti, LPO under Solti & Tennstedt, LSO under Abbado, RCOA under Haitink, IPO under Mehta years ago when I was in UK (1980-1985).

[hautbois]

I beg to differ that the MPO is world-class Howard. Perhaps when Maazel conducted them, they sounded like the NYPO - just for 1 night. The rest of the time - they are just a good orchestra - not-world class. This is coming from me - and I have seen the BPO with Karajan, Philharmonia with Muti, LPO under Solti & Tennstedt, LSO under Abbado, RCOA under Haitink, IPO under Mehta years ago when I was in UK (1980-1985).

But of course you can't deny the fact that they have EXCELLENTLY trained musicians capable of pulling off anything under the right conductor. (Did we mention to GMGers that they are 100/104 foreigners?) Friends of mine whom has seen the big five tells me that even the NYPO ain't that impressive compared to MPO when it's just not their day. Big orchestras are usually at their prime when touring, and it is a largely agreed upon fact, so you might have really seen them rock. It is hard to define what is 'world class'. If one listens to recordings of MPO on BIS, one wonders that there is nothing else that can be compared to them, because of the accoustics of the hall, Bakel's precision, and BIS's fantastic engineering (just listen to the Tsar Bride overture, WOW!).

If MPO is not world class by any standards, then was the Pittsburg Symphony under Reiner world class? Well, of course it was, but nowadays, the standard of playing from orchestras has gone up so much, that the Pittsburg Symphony back then would have been rated mediocre (technical precision). Of course i have not seen the so called 'big orchs' live ever, except LSO which was here last season with Harding, and is far less exposed to you obviously, but i can enjoy any performance given that it has fulfilled its artistic expectations. I know professional musicians who went for VPO and RCO concerts who tells me that they are really not as jaw dropping as one would expect after all those recordins, it's not because they are not world class, but because of consistency problems that exists around the globe! No orchestra in the world performs 100% jaw dropping concerts every week, there is really no such thing, and i know you won't argue with me because anyone who attends subscription concerts with the big names would tell you the same.

Of course MPO doesn't have a tradition as great as the big orchs, but to say that they have not produced world class concerts is just plain ignorant. That Bruckner 5th with Claus Peter Flor was just amazing a year ago, so was that Egmont incidental music concert with Bakels etc. There were just so many great concerts, which fortunately out does many of the cds of V** and C** that i own and want to dump away. Thus, i see no reason why not to call them world class!

Howard

[Keemun]

Three that come to mind are:

Israel Philharmonic Orchestra
Sydney Symphony
New Zealand Symphony Orchestra

[MISHUGINA]

It's hard to think good orchestras outside U.S and Europe. Even Japan, who has many players in the renowned European and big five orchestras doesn't have a particularly outstanding ensemble. I hear a Hong Kong Philharmonic under Edo de Waart (if not mistaken) isn't too shabby. About the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra, their CDs have gotten quite some positive reviews, especially the Rimsky-Korsakov cycle has been quite critically acclaimed (and I haven't heard much of it yet).

But of course you can't deny the fact that they have EXCELLENTLY trained musicians capable of pulling off anything under the right conductor. (Did we mention to GMGers that they are 100/104 foreigners?) Friends of mine whom has seen the big five tells me that even the NYPO ain't that impressive compared to MPO when it's just not their day. Big orchestras are usually at their prime when touring, and it is a largely agreed upon fact, so you might have really seen them rock. It is hard to define what is 'world class'. If one listens to recordings of MPO on BIS, one wonders that there is nothing else that can be compared to them, because of the accoustics of the hall, Bakel's precision, and BIS's fantastic engineering (just listen to the Tsar Bride overture, WOW!)

Actually even given any decent orchestra, a truly gifted conductor can pull-off some mind-blowingly awesome results. The playing of Rudolph Barshai's Deutsche Junge-Philharmonie in Mahler 5 puts many recordings from teh US-big five for example to shame. Furtwangler recorded a Brahms 1st that is considered the finest ever, and the orchestra isn't BPO or VPO but the Hamburg State Symphony Orchestra. But does that make them on par with VPO or a CSO? Of course not! I've heard quite some world-class concerts from Malaysian PO especially Kees Bakels conducting Shosty 7, Mahler 6 and 7th. But then, I've heard stunning performances from only very selected key conductors, Bakels one and Claus Peter Flor being the other (maybe you can add Maazel).

If MPO is not world class by any standards, then was the Pittsburg Symphony under Reiner world class? Well, of course it was, but nowadays, the standard of playing from orchestras has gone up so much, that the Pittsburg Symphony back then would have been rated mediocre (technical precision).

Gone up so much? There are orchestras at that time like Toscanini's NBC Symphony Orchestra and Reiner's Chicago Symphony that cannot be matched by any ensemble today. Of course today there are more world class orchestras compared with 50 years ago.

I know professional musicians who went for VPO and RCO concerts who tells me that they are really not as jaw dropping as one would expect after all those recordins, it's not because they are not world class, but because of consistency problems that exists around the globe! No orchestra in the world performs 100% jaw dropping concerts every week, there is really no such thing, and i know you won't argue with me because anyone who attends subscription concerts with the big names would tell you the same.

So does the MPO. Or are you telling me MPO is more consistent than these orchestras you think of?  

Of course MPO doesn't have a tradition as great as the big orchs, but to say that they have not produced world class concerts is just plain ignorant. That Bruckner 5th with Claus Peter Flor was just amazing a year ago, so was that Egmont incidental music concert with Bakels etc. There were just so many great concerts, which fortunately out does many of the cds of V** and C** that i own and want to dump away. Thus, i see no reason why not to call them world class!

One man's meat is another man's poison and so forth. While I agree that Bruckner 5th had great interpretation, the playingstandards although quite high they're miles from Bruckner 5ths by BPO or an RCO.

How many MPO concerts have you attended? No offense but I bet I attended more than you and they're not quite as world class as a few live orchestras I've witnessed, say La Scala Philharmonic and LSO. The Harding concert blows away many of MPO performance played on their peak form. I could think of and that's just under an overrated protege of Simon Rattle! Just imagine had we heard LSO under a Haitink, Boulez or Colin Davis.

You want to dump your VPO cds? Don't waste it instead give it to GMGers here or better, me!    You mention the Rimsly-Korsakov cycle kicked ass, are they any other similar recordings out there by the MPO? The CSO and VPO's most stunning efforts far outdoes most of your so-called "great concerts" and cds produced by tons. Can MPO be that world-class in 100 years?

Also how can we proclaim it proudly it is world-class when almost all of the players aren't Malaysians? I'd rather be a Singaporean and be proud of SSO instead. We can even buy the whole VPO and call it MPO.    What matters?!

[MISHUGINA]

Three that come to mind are:

Israel Philharmonic Orchestra

No offense, but that orchestra is probably the most overrated orchestra I've ever heard. The reason why is simply because a lot of "big name" conductors conduct them like Mehta and Bernstein. But the standards.. I say our MPO are better. I've heard a Petrouchka conducted by Lenny on DG and I've rarely heard such technically scrappy record such as that one.

[MishaK]

Japan has a few top-notch orchestras. NHK Symphony and Osaka Philharmonic come to mind. I haven't personally heard them, but I should think that the KBS Symphony Orchestra and the Seoul Philharmonic in Korea should be quite excellent as well, seeing as they have been under the tutelage of some top conductors like Myung-Whun Chung and there is no shortage of excellent Korean musicians. I am sure Argentina in the 40s and early 50s could boast quite a few top ensembles when the likes of Erich Kleiber and others were living and working there, but I doubt it's anywhere near that level these days. Sydney Symphony should be quite decent, seeing that it had a list of noteworthy conductors including Goosens, Malko, Otterloo, Fremaux, Mackerras and Asheknazy, but I haven't heard that one either.

[mahlertitan]

the question is "World Class" orchestras, so naturally, World Philharmonic Orchestra comes in mind.

[hautbois]

Gone up so much? There are orchestras at that time like Toscanini's NBC Symphony Orchestra and Reiner's Chicago Symphony that cannot be matched by any ensemble today. Of course today there are more world class orchestras compared with 50 years ago.

No such thing if you ask me, to say that their playing is still unmatched today is a joke. They became the standard on which orchestral precision was judged after, and yeah baby, many orchestras came up to par or even better. Tell me that the precision of the London Philharmonia from their abundance of Rite of Spring recordings isn't just as exciting or top notch ensemble and technical wise, oh by the way, i am sure they performed a few bad concerts too (with that typical squek or bulb here and there), so are they not world class? I love Reiner/CSO recordings and own quite a few now too, but some of his records are over-rated, simply because when a legend is created, everything related or surrouding the legend becomes legends too, by default. Take his Ravel Alborada Del Gracioso, compare it to Gergiev's performance with the Rotterdam Philharmonic, hmmm....

So does the MPO. Or are you telling me MPO is more consistent than these orchestras you think of? 

No, i was referring that EVERY orchestra in the world has their ups and downs and even the biggest names in the business can fail to deliver at times.

One man's meat is another man's poison and so forth. While I agree that Bruckner 5th had great interpretation, the playingstandards although quite high they're miles from Bruckner 5ths by BPO or an RCO.

There played 3 concerts in a row. To sustain that is most amazing enough for me. I wouldn't at all say that they were miles away. Would you say that Wand's Cologne band was miles away from Harnoncourt's VPO? So the Cologne band is not world class huh?

How many MPO concerts have you attended? No offense but I bet I attended more than you and they're not quite as world class as a few live orchestras I've witnessed, say La Scala Philharmonic and LSO. The Harding concert blows away many of MPO performance played on their peak form. I could think of and that's just under an overrated protege of Simon Rattle! Just imagine had we heard LSO under a Haitink, Boulez or Colin Davis.

Of course i can't compare myself to you maestro in terms of live exposure. I wasn't THAT impressed by LSO when they came. It was VERY good of course, but the Star Wars encore was better than the Dvorak Golden Spinning Wheel. 

You want to dump your VPO cds? Don't waste it instead give it to GMGers here or better, me!    You mention the Rimsly-Korsakov cycle kicked ass, are they any other similar recordings out there by the MPO? The CSO and VPO's most stunning efforts far outdoes most of your so-called "great concerts" and cds produced by tons. Can MPO be that world-class in 100 years?

Khatchacurian's rendition of his own works on Decca with VPO is a classic because it is the composer himself conducting! But come on, don't tell me you call that world class by today's standards! Barenboim's Verdi Requiem with the CSO was....

Also how can we proclaim it proudly it is world-class when almost all of the players aren't Malaysians? I'd rather be a Singaporean and be proud of SSO instead. We can even buy the whole VPO and call it MPO.    What matters?!

How can it be NOT world class just because of that issue? So NYPO has a chinese principal oboist, fire him, or else NYPO won't be world class anymore!
Some of SSO's recordings on BIS are terrific too, but guess what...i went to a few of their concerts and, yeah, you know what i am going to say. If every music enthusiast defines world class from your point of view (Which ain't wrong, but very subjective), a lot of orchestras in the world will cease to exist, and that would be an extremely sad thing. If you graduate and start working in a non-'world class' orchestra, and because idiots go around telling the uneducated public that they are not world class, and as a result loses audiences and the orchestra disintergrates, wouldn't that be a very sad thing?

Howard thinks that the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra is world class, and it's my birthday tomorrow, so everything i say is true for 1 day (Or more if you prefer, judge by yourselves by listening to their Korsakov cycle!).

p.s. Just heard Marc-Andre Hamelin and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Andrew Litton performing Shosty and Shchedrin piano concertos. World class orchestra without a doubt. Just ask Harry, he listens to unknown orchestras all the time, and they obviously produce excellent performances well worth the money. Yeah, world class performances. (I'm getting sick of this term, not a good way to judge orchestral performance i'd say)

Edited for typo and grammatical errors, english is not my first language, apologies.

[MishaK]

Yeah, world class performances. (I'm getting sick of this term, not a good way to judge orchestral performance i'd say)

I think that's the main lesson to be learned here.

Of course there are good orchestras and less good orchestras and a few truly exceptional orchestras. But the dividing lines are fluid. Any orchestra composed of highly trained musicians and given the attention of a great conductor who is also a great orchestra-builder can mature into a fine band that can produce performances that can match the best. The number of great youth ensembles that have come to international attention attest to that. And the various blind listening comparisons we have had in the forum show how difficult it is to tell famous orchestras from less famous ones.

[Cato]

I instantly thought of the Japan Philharmonic under its founder, Akeo Watanabe, and that marvelous set of complete Sibelius symphonies recorded when the group was only 5 or 6 years old.

I have some CD's with Alexander Tcherepnin works played by the Singapore Symphony conducted by Lan Shui.  Very well done, but with something bigger, it is hard to say how they would do.

[Rabin_Fan]

Well, mistakes on CD recording can be corrected & repeated over & over again until it is perfect. Do you know that the MPO Khachaturian & Sibelius VC was patched almost bar by bar (Rosand was simply too old when he made this one). I saw him & the SSO in 1987 & he was magnificent then.

Tasmin Little sounds very good on CD 'cos her husband (or ex-husband, I'm not sure) Mike Hatch is a sound wizard & engineer. She sounds very good on CD but not so good when she came to play with the Elgar.

Yes the MPO has its highs & lows - mainly lows and not too many highs. The musicians are good but a lot of them do not have pride in their work here. A key player in the brass was reading a magazine during a Mahler 1 rehearsal. I even know that. The horns after so many years are out of tune (by the way I have perfect pitch) and the trumpets are not that much better. Good players like Phil (clarinet), Paul (timps), Kevin (trombone), Hristo (flute) - I can name but there aren't too many more around.

If you hear my live cassette tape of Karajan BPO's Bruckner 5 and you compare it to CP Flor's version with the MPO - you know which version you'd want to take to your desert island.

The MPO is just a collection of talented musicians here - some of them exploiting the great pay here at a low cost of living (e.g. compared to London, Tokyo & USA) and playing just so-so to "educate" us uncultured Malaysians. By the way, I am not so uncultured - having studied violin in UK in 1980-85 and also seen all the great maestros conduct.

My doctor friend here went to UK for the Proms this year - after the Lucerne Fest Orch (Abbado), SFSO (MTT), VPO (Barenboim) and Bav RSO (Jansons) - he said that the MPO was nowhere. A mere "infant' compared to the top European and US orchestras.

[hautbois]

Well, mistakes on CD recording can be corrected & repeated over & over again until it is perfect. Do you know that the MPO Khachaturian & Sibelius VC was patched almost bar by bar (Rosand was simply too old when he made this one). I saw him & the SSO in 1987 & he was magnificent then.

Didn't know that! Very interesting! But of course the big names and ESPECIALLY the big names do that a lot. And yes, according to one veteran musician in the MPO, many of their own live performances on cd are in fact more like live + after concert re-record of sections that were not satisfactory. He also mentions that a lot of big names in the industry does just that, it's just a norm, and it's simply the fact that less good orchestras might have to a bit more work than others to sound impressive. Although, no mediocre orchestra in the world would be given a contract by BIS would it.

Tasmin Little sounds very good on CD 'cos her husband (or ex-husband, I'm not sure) Mike Hatch is a sound wizard & engineer. She sounds very good on CD but not so good when she came to play with the Elgar.

Agreed, i didn't enjoy that performance at all, i barely applauded pass the 1st curtain call.

Yes the MPO has its highs & lows - mainly lows and not too many highs. The musicians are good but a lot of them do not have pride in their work here. A key player in the brass was reading a magazine during a Mahler 1 rehearsal. I even know that. The horns after so many years are out of tune (by the way I have perfect pitch) and the trumpets are not that much better. Good players like Phil (clarinet), Paul (timps), Kevin (trombone), Hristo (flute) - I can name but there aren't too many more around.

Perfect pitch ain't really such a big factor here, but we don't need to go into that topic right now do we.  Well Arnold Jacobs played with other instrument's mouthpieces during rehearsals and played other people's part in the CSO when he was bored during tuttis, so where does that leave him. It happens, who was the conductor in that rehearsal? One cannot expect more from this orchestra because all the musicians come from everywhere around the world, the different styles of playing is enormous, there is no unifying factor here, and without a good principal conductor at hand, things seem to get worst. But still, i enjoyed plenty of their concerts. Oh well, maybe my standard of judgement is low. 

If you hear my live cassette tape of Karajan BPO's Bruckner 5 and you compare it to CP Flor's version with the MPO - you know which version you'd want to take to your desert island.

Now of course one would never compare such a thing, it's like saying that caviar is better tasting than rice, but they both sort of fills our stomach too right?

The MPO is just a collection of talented musicians here - some of them exploiting the great pay here at a low cost of living (e.g. compared to London, Tokyo & USA) and playing just so-so to "educate" us uncultured Malaysians. By the way, I am not so uncultured - having studied violin in UK in 1980-85 and also seen all the great maestros conduct.

Of course you are not uncultured. I am curious, did you take music as a major? I assume you took a different path, which is a pity because Malaysia is so lacking in people like you who knows how to listen and appreciate this sort of thing.

My doctor friend here went to UK for the Proms this year - after the Lucerne Fest Orch (Abbado), SFSO (MTT), VPO (Barenboim) and Bav RSO (Jansons) - he said that the MPO was nowhere. A mere "infant' compared to the top European and US orchestras.

What a list. 

[bhodges]

Howard thinks that the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra is world class, and it's my birthday tomorrow, so everything i say is true for 1 day (Or more if you prefer, judge by yourselves by listening to their Korsakov cycle!).

Just noticed this (and don't have time to jump into the discussion at the moment) so...

Happy Birthday!  

--Bruce

[hautbois]

Just noticed this (and don't have time to jump into the discussion at the moment) so...

Happy Birthday!  

--Bruce

Thanks!  Do jump in and mention a few unknown orchestras worth the interest!

Howard

[Hector]

Sadly, I do not think there are any.

The best musicians outside of Europe and the States would gravitate to those places.

Look at any of the great European orchestras, for example, and note the number of SE Asian faces.

Having written that, the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela were immensely impressive at this years Proms especially under the charismatic Gustavo Dudamel.

[MISHUGINA]

They became the standard on which orchestral precision was judged after, and yeah baby, many orchestras came up to par or even better.

I did point out the fact there is more quantity of orchestras with world-class standards compared with 50 years ago, but to say there are orchestras who can match Toscanini's NBC Symphony is a joke. Simply because nowadays with 'democratic' orchestras as a trend, a Toscanini-like dictator of baton would've been no chance to direct an orchestra. To see who's right, I will post a new topic + poll.

How can it be NOT world class just because of that issue? So NYPO has a chinese principal oboist, fire him, or else NYPO won't be world class anymore!

NYPO may have a chinese oboist, but what if the whole orchestra is populated by majority Chinese people? New Yorkers would've balked and ask them to move to China instead. Can you imagine VPO with majority Japanese players? Hell no. Until we have about 51% of local players in Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra, it is simply called just because it is funded by a Malaysian oil company.    

Some of SSO's recordings on BIS are terrific too, but guess what...i went to a few of their concerts and, yeah, you know what i am going to say. If every music enthusiast defines world class from your point of view (Which ain't wrong, but very subjective), a lot of orchestras in the world will cease to exist, and that would be an extremely sad thing. If you graduate and start working in a non-'world class' orchestra, and because idiots go around telling the uneducated public that they are not world class, and as a result loses audiences and the orchestra disintergrates, wouldn't that be a very sad thing?

I don't know but if that's the trend of this so-called globalisation thing I have nothing to say. Nowadays in English Premier League Soccer there are teams that consists 100% non-English players.

My point is a little mis-fired and I didn't meant "not world class" in a sense like that. But more and more orchestras are sounding alike and it's getting boring. The ensembles like BPO, RCO and such are losing their traditional sound. But I digress.

[hautbois]

I did point out the fact there is more quantity of orchestras with world-class standards compared with 50 years ago, but to say there are orchestras who can match Toscanini's NBC Symphony is a joke. Simply because nowadays with 'democratic' orchestras as a trend, a Toscanini-like dictator of baton would've been no chance to direct an orchestra. To see who's right, I will post a new topic + poll.

I'd be terrible curious with the outcome, let's see. 

My point is a little mis-fired and I didn't meant "not world class" in a sense like that. But more and more orchestras are sounding alike and it's getting boring. The ensembles like BPO, RCO and such are losing their traditional sound. But I digress.

Sad isn't it, and VPO is playing on darker yamaha oboes too. The Dutch community seems to have realised and they are now looking for a new principal oboist. I don't know what is the BPO sound, was it how they sounded under Karajan? That Mahler 5th with Rattle was... But performances with Boulez and Harnoncourt from recent years were absolutely stunning.

Howard

[MishaK]

Sad isn't it, and VPO is playing on darker yamaha oboes too. The Dutch community seems to have realised and they are now looking for a new principal oboist. I don't know what is the BPO sound, was it how they sounded under Karajan? That Mahler 5th with Rattle was... But performances with Boulez and Harnoncourt from recent years were absolutely stunning.

The BPO at least since WWII had a very international European sound, not specifically German, but very warm and very versatile. The Karajan recordings don't do that justice as they are often very overengineered and produce an unnatural wall of sound. I have a live recording of Beethoven 9 with Karajan from 1963 that sounds quite different than his studio effort from the same year. There are also recordings with other conductors from teh karajan era that capture that better (e.g. Kubelik). And yes, the orchestra still retains that basic sound today. Besides Boulez and Harnoncourt, Barenboim has also been a regular guest who has nurtured their German romantic tradition. But again, the most impressive thing is the BPO's versatility. They sound quite different under all these conductors, yet they can snap back to their general norm and maintain their high level of excellence in all repertoire.