The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[Florestan]

Schumann.

So, no Mozart, no Schubert, no Beethoven, no Field, no Clementi on piano, right?

[Gurn Blanston]

HIP of course began as a negation of a particular performance practice - the mid 20th century view of baroque and classical music through the lens of Romanticism.  What to replace that with is an open debate - for example, how free was the rhythm in baroque pieces - the early hip stuff tended to be rigid metronome-like interpetations reacting against use is romantic inspired rubato while now you see much more openness to a freer approach.  Now that the both the naive romantic treatment of earlier music and the rigid first wave HIP mentality belong to a previous generation, there is not an either / or debate just a situation where performers can make informed aesthetic choices

Very sensible POV. I really do dislike old arguments being pulled out when their validity faded 25 years ago.

No minds will be changed here, it is what it is. I don't care what people play the music on. I only listen to it when they play it on what I want to hear. What more simple argument and/or lifestyle could be put forward? 

[Gurn Blanston]

So, no Mozart, no Schubert, no Beethoven, no Field, no Clementi on piano, right?

Time is an arrow, it moves only in one direction....

[Florestan]

I don't care what people play the music on. I only listen to it when they play it on what I want to hear. What more simple argument and/or lifestyle could be put forward? 

That is a very wise philosophy. The new debate, though, started when two people suggested that pianists should never ever play Bach, which strikes me as very different from your position.

[Florestan]

Time is an arrow, it moves only in one direction....

Title page of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata:



It clearly says "per il Clavicembalo o Piano-Forte"

Title page of Schumann's Kreisleriana:



It clearly says "fuer Piano-Forte".

In both cases, piano-forte. Not fortepiano, mind you. 

Btw, do you happen to know a good recording of the Moonlight Sonata on harpsichord? I'd be only to willing to listen to it.

[prémont]

That is a very wise philosophy. The new debate, though, started when two people suggested that pianists should never ever play Bach, which strikes me as very different from your position.

If I am one of those you refer to, I have to say, that you got me wrong. I am not complaining about the instruments as such (most instruments can't make music without human intervention) but about the pianists, who use their instruments to distort the music as they please. And it is actually possible to play baroque music in good style on a piano, but only a few master the task. That said, I prefer period instruments with their "limited" musical options, but I am not so radical as to exclude artists who play on modern instruments only for that reason.

[North Star]

Title page of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata:

It clearly says "per il Clavicembalo o Piano-Forte"

Title page of Schumann's Kreisleriana:

It clearly says "fuer Piano-Forte".

In both cases, piano-forte. Not fortepiano, mind you. 

Btw, do you happen to know a good recording of the Moonlight Sonata on harpsichord? I'd be only to willing to listen to it.

Here's the Pathetique on a clavichord, which is close enough, I suppose.
https://www.youtube.com/v/7hQzG-CATQM

[Florestan]

If I am one of those you refer to, I have to say, that you got me wrong. I am not complaining about the instruments as such (most instruments can't make music without human intervention) but about the pianists, who use their instruments to distort the music as they please. And it is actually possible to play baroque music in good style on a piano, but only a few master the task. That said, I prefer period instruments with their "limited" musical options, but I am not so radical as to exclude artists who play on modern instruments only for that reason.

I did get you wrong, then. I stand corrected.

[prémont]

Title page of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata:



It clearly says "per il Clavicembalo o Piano-Forte"


In both cases, piano-forte. Not fortepiano, mind you. 

Btw, do you happen to know a good recording of the Moonlight Sonata on harpsichord? I'd be only to willing to listen to it.

I do not think the distinction between fortepiano and pianoforte was that clear around the year 1800.

Well, I have heard two recordings of the Moonlight sonata played on harpsichord. Both were unconvincing, and I have since long deleted the details about them from my mind. No reason to doubt that Beethoven wrote for fortepiano (or pianoforte if you prefer this), but of course he did not have the modern grand in mind. So even here I prefer period instruments but I do not reject stylish interpretations on modern piano.

[Harry]

If I am one of those you refer to, I have to say, that you got me wrong. I am not complaining about the instruments as such (most instruments can't make music without human intervention) but about the pianists, who use their instruments to distort the music as they please. And it is actually possible to play baroque music in good style on a piano, but only a few master the task. That said, I prefer period instruments with their "limited" musical options, but I am not so radical as to exclude artists who play on modern instruments only for that reason.

He probably refers to me!
All this made me aware of the fact that saying things or posting in the listening thread, gets a lot of people irritated, thus I will refrain of posting my thoughts about music, but merely state what I have played or bought. That way no one can tell me over and over again, that my English is incomprehensible , or that I am wrongheaded about what I read and accordingly am not able to grasp the finer details of what is said.
If interested in my thoughts there is the possibility of a  PM .

[Gurn Blanston]

That is a very wise philosophy. The new debate, though, started when two people suggested that pianists should never ever play Bach, which strikes me as very different from your position.

I have a different personality type, that's all. BTW, Seeing your Moonlight Sonata post below, I tell you to check Youtube, there is a 5 minute video there of a 16 year old girl who plays Moonlight Sonata on an electric guitar that will blow your mind! She has fabulous technique, and makes it appear effortless. Just sayin'... 

[prémont]

He probably refers to me!

Yes, but he wrote TWO, so I suppose he meant you and me.

That is a very wise philosophy. The new debate, though, started when two people suggested that pianists should never ever play Bach, which strikes me as very different from your position.

[Harry]

Yes, but he wrote TWO, so I suppose he meant you and me.

Ahhhh yes!

[Florestan]

Here's the Pathetique on a clavichord, which is close enough, I suppose.
https://www.youtube.com/v/7hQzG-CATQM

Thanks. Honestly, not as bad as I expected but I can't say I'll put it on repeat any time soon. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Title page of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata:

It clearly says "per il Clavicembalo o Piano-Forte"

Title page of Schumann's Kreisleriana:

It clearly says "fuer Piano-Forte".

In both cases, piano-forte. Not fortepiano, mind you. 

Btw, do you happen to know a good recording of the Moonlight Sonata on harpsichord? I'd be only to willing to listen to it.

You should know by now that sarcasm doesn't work on me.

The discussion for the last 3 pages has been about modern grand pianos playing old music. I don't change that parameter for my convenience. I am talking about a wooden frame, period pianoforte (the preferred terminology after the turn of the century), which is my instrument of choice for Beethoven, and sometimes Clementi and Weber (who was a student of Michael Haydn). Or a narrower compass wooden frame Viennese type fortepiano for later Mozart, while I am quite content with a clavichord for much of Mozart and even a harpsichord for some.

I took your question to be, then (when is it OK to use a modern piano?), to which I said (and still do say) Schumann.

[Gurn Blanston]

Just for the record, I agree that pianists should never play Bach. I resolve that by not listening to them. I don't call them names, nor rail against them; they simply don't exist in my world. 

[Florestan]

Yes, but he wrote TWO, so I suppose he meant you and me.

What I meant is this:

That is exactly how it should be. Keep the music for the instruments it was composed for. Bach on a grand is an atrocity.

+1

Note the "should" part. I took the above to mean that you and Harry agreed on that no grand piano should be used for Bach. If I got you both wrong, I apologize.

[Florestan]

You should know by now that sarcasm doesn't work on me.

The discussion for the last 3 pages has been about modern grand pianos playing old music. I don't change that parameter for my convenience. I am talking about a wooden frame, period pianoforte (the preferred terminology after the turn of the century), which is my instrument of choice for Beethoven, and sometimes Clementi and Weber (who was a student of Michael Haydn). Or a narrower compass wooden frame Viennese type fortepiano for later Mozart, while I am quite content with a clavichord for much of Mozart and even a harpsichord for some.

I took your question to be, then (when is it OK to use a modern piano?), to which I said (and still do say) Schumann.

Just for the record, I agree that pianists should never play Bach. I resolve that by not listening to them. I don't call them names, nor rail against them; they simply don't exist in my world. 

Okay then, but I can't help noticing that first you said you didn't care what instrument Bach was played on, then you said it shouldn't be played on a piano. Kind of contradictory, I'd say. 

[prémont]

He probably refers to me!
All this made me aware of the fact that saying things or posting in the listening thread, gets a lot of people irritated, thus I will refrain of posting my thoughts about music, but merely state what I have played or bought. That way no one can tell me over and over again, that my English is incomprehensible , or that I am wrongheaded about what I read and accordingly am not able to grasp the finer details of what is said.
If interested in my thoughts there is the possibility of a  PM .

So far we only discuss the music and its interpretation, I want to maintain my right to comment it in the way I want. If sensible members here get pain in their asses for that reason, I can live with it.


One more thing: I have never had problems with understanding your posts.

[Harry]

So far we only discuss the music and its interpretation, I want to maintain my right to comment it in the way I want. If sensible members here get pain in their asses for that reason, I can live with it.


One more thing: I have never had problems with understanding your posts.

Thank you