The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[San Antone]

I just saw this post about D 960 / i

and it struck me that this sort of consideration is, I guess, about the tempo Schubert intended. Generally pianists seem much more interested in HIP than you want to allow, and have been for the past 100 years, just think of all those "piano schools" which are supposed to hold the secret of the correct way to play Liszt and Chopin because they were founded by someone who studied with Liszt and Chopin. Edwin Fischer is relevant too, and the principles underlying his edition of the score of WTC, and indeed his performances in practice.

Does anyone know whether Clementi wrote anything about how he made his editions of Scarlatti?

As far as I know when Edwin Fischer played Bach he did not do so on a harpsichord; and that Schnabel and Richter played that Schubert sonata on a piano, not a fortepiano?  And what do you make of the Busoni edition of the Well-Tempered Clavier?

[Mandryka]

Edwin Fischer's edition of WTC is very different from Busoni's, and I think Fischer wanted to present the music as Bach did (ie authentically, HIPly) . I also think that his performance style is relatively restrained in terms of piano specific effects, at least compared to what Busoni was doing, maybe in a desire to present  what he perceived to be a more authentic Bach performance.

There was a widespread belief at the turn of the 19th century that the piano represented progress over the harpsichord, and that Bach's music played on a harpsichord was too austere for your average music lover. But again it's more complicated because of the so called harpsichord revival.

[San Antone]

Edwin Fischer's edition of WTC is very different from Busoni's, and I think Fischer wanted to present the music as Bach did (ie authentically, HIPly) . I also think that his performance style is relatively restrained in terms of piano specific effects, at least compared to what Busoni was doing, maybe in a desire to present  what he perceived to be a more authentic Bach performance.

There was a widespread belief at the turn of the 19th century that the piano represented progress over the harpsichord, and that Bach's music played on a harpsichord was too austere for your average music lover. But again it's more complicated because of the so called harpsichord revival.

The first recordings I heard on the harpsichord were by Wanda Landowska, and her instrument was pretty strident, but because it was a novelty, she had a career.  Ralph Kirkpatrick came along a little later, I think, but again there was a novelty factor associated with those recordings.  But I suppose you could date the HIP enterprise with them, and then the Harnoncourt B Minor Mass in the late 60s or early 70s, I first heard it around 1970.  His recording, I think, really started the ball rolling because he was an "advocate".

I wonder what Bach would think of OVPP performances of his large choral works? 

[Karl Henning]

Might he not think them "awful thin" . . . ?

[San Antone]

Might he not think them "awful thin" . . . ?

Yeah, that's what I wondered.  But, for Kuijken or Parrott or Rifkin, whose recordings are the ones I know of, what I assume is driving their decision is that they like the sound.

[Karl Henning]

Yeah, that's what I wondered.  But, for Kuijken or Parrott or Rifkin, whose recordings are the ones I know of, what I assume is driving their decision is that they like the sound.

Indeed.

[André]

Might he not think them "awful thin" . . . ?

The proof of the pudding is in the singing. Take any 4 singers standing for the night's performance and if one of the voices does not blend well, or the singer has a cold, or anything like that, and the whole performance is ruined. If it's a recording things can be fixed. But I doubt any concert producer or conductor will risk a disaster if things don't go as planned. Unless you have a doublure for each singer (i.e. 8 singers). But then why not have them all sing if they've been booked for the evening anyway?

[Mandryka]

Yeah, that's what I wondered.  But, for Kuijken or Parrott or Rifkin, whose recordings are the ones I know of, what I assume is driving their decision is that they like the sound.

Parrott thinks that Bach chose to use small forces for his music at Leipzig. There's a good discussion of this in Composers' Intentions.

[Roasted Swan]

Today I listened to a beautiful disc -

[asin]B004AF9PR0[/asin]

Now here's an interesting idea; a conductor (Richard Egaar) who has made his name as an HIP practitioner directing a disc of Stokowski arrangements - mainly of baroque music.  The key here for me is; forget the whole "is it 'authentic' or not" debate and just listen to some really intelligent arrangements performed with affection and sensitivity and beautifully recorded too.  In other words - if the music-making is of a high quality little else matters.  You could play the most authentic/historically aware rendition of a work ever, and if the playing/interpretation was dull, it stays dull.

[Karl Henning]

Today I listened to a beautiful disc -

[asin]B004AF9PR0[/asin]

Now here's an interesting idea; a conductor (Richard Egaar) who has made his name as an HIP practitioner directing a disc of Stokowski arrangements - mainly of baroque music.  The key here for me is; forget the whole "is it 'authentic' or not" debate and just listen to some really intelligent arrangements performed with affection and sensitivity and beautifully recorded too.  In other words - if the music-making is of a high quality little else matters.  You could play the most authentic/historically aware rendition of a work ever, and if the playing/interpretation was dull, it stays dull.

What a fabulous idea.

[Karl Henning]

Today I listened to a beautiful disc -

[asin]B004AF9PR0[/asin]

Now here's an interesting idea; a conductor (Richard Egaar) who has made his name as an HIP practitioner directing a disc of Stokowski arrangements - mainly of baroque music.  The key here for me is; forget the whole "is it 'authentic' or not" debate and just listen to some really intelligent arrangements performed with affection and sensitivity and beautifully recorded too.  In other words - if the music-making is of a high quality little else matters.  You could play the most authentic/historically aware rendition of a work ever, and if the playing/interpretation was dull, it stays dull.

Here's a (non-contentious) question for you:  I see on the verso that the Handel and Ockeghem arrangements are Egarr's own.  How does this fit the Stokowski theme?  Or is it simply an extension of the premise?

[Mandryka]

And what's Marche slave doing in there?

I guess Tipo playing The Goldberg Variations stands to Bach's Goldberg Variations as Stokowski's BWV 565 stands to Bach's organ music.

[San Antone]

And what's Marche slave doing in there?

I guess Tipo playing The Goldberg Variations stands to Bach's Goldberg Variations as Stokowski's BWV 565 stands to Bach's organ music.

Not for me.  I love Tipo's GV but cannot say the same for the Stokowski transcriptions.  But a lot has to do with my distaste for orchestral music in general.

[Florestan]

Back for a very short while to offer you another book of interest.

Roman Ingarden - The Work of Music and The Problem of Its Identity

http://pdf.to/bookinfo/the-work-of-music-and-the-problem-of-its-identity.pdf/

Enjoy!

[Karl Henning]

Back for a very short while to offer you another book of interest.

Roman Ingarden - The Work of Music and The Problem of Its Identity

http://pdf.to/bookinfo/the-work-of-music-and-the-problem-of-its-identity.pdf/

Enjoy!

Thanks!

[king ubu]

By the way, Florestan, Premont, there's a book on this area which I think is rather thought provoking, called "The Imaginary Museum of Musical Works" by Lydia Goer (Oxford UP) I would like to have been more involved but I've been having a battle with a hose pipe all day. (automatic irrigation)

Bought that, looks very interesting, thanks!

It's one of those amazon print on demand paperbacks ... though Oxford is "over here" too, last time I looked, but it's cheap enough.

[Florestan]

Just finished this. It's one of the most intelectually stimulating and thought-provoking books I've read in my whole life. I'm in a location where I have very limited access to GMG but as soon as I'll be in another, more GMG-friendly, I'll post my thoughts about it. Anyway, many many thanks and hat tips to Mandryka for bringing it to my attention.

[Mandryka]

Just finished this. It's one of the most intelectually stimulating and thought-provoking books I've read in my whole life. I'm in a location where I have very limited access to GMG but as soon as I'll be in another, more GMG-friendly, I'll post my thoughts about it. Anyway, many many thanks and hat tips to Mandryka for bringing it to my attention.

I'm pleased.

We should discuss it together systematically, chapter by chapter.

[milk]

Not for me.  I love Tipo's GV but cannot say the same for the Stokowski transcriptions.  But a lot has to do with my distaste for orchestral music in general.

I thought I was the only one here who didn't like Orchestral music much. Nor opera.

[San Antone]

I thought I was the only one here who didn't like Orchestral music much. Nor opera.

Yeah, I only listen to chamber music, solo piano and early vocal music.  If I do listen to orchestral music, it is small PI ensembles, and not much beyond Haydn, with the exception of Debussy, especially Pelleas et Melisande.

But if I had to say, classical music would rank only third or fourth among the music I enjoy.