The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[prémont]

I don't know about Danish but in Romanian authentic is frequently used with that "special" meaning and needs no further qualifications in order to be understood as such.

If you look at English dictionaries on the net, you will find your definition relatively rarely and never as the main meaning.

[Florestan]

If you look at English dictionaries on the net, you will find your definition relatively rarely and never as the main meaning.

Fwiw:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/authentic

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/authentic

[North Star]

As long as the performer has artistic integrity, an aesthetically coherent vision and is technically secure, and as long as the listener enjoys the performance, the end result is meaningful and moreover it is authentic, regardless of what instruments are used or what performance practice is employed.

Merriam-Webster's definition #3 of authentic: true to one's own personality, spirit, or character.

That's exactly what I meant by it.

I don't know about Danish but in Romanian authentic is frequently used with that "special" meaning and needs no further qualifications in order to be understood as such.

In English, and in the context of this conversation it was far from clear what you were trying to convey with the word, though. And as far as I see, artistic integrity contains the definition of authenticity you had in mind.

Fwiw: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/authentic

Yes, no. 3 like you said, and not the top definition.

[Florestan]

In English, and in the context of this conversation it was far from clear what you were trying to convey with the word, though.

I'll leave the judgment to native English speakers, if you don't mind.

And as far as I see, artistic integrity contains your definition of authenticity.

It's not my definition.

[Florestan]

Good night, gentlemen. (I don't know the top definitions of good and night in English, Danish or Finnish but in Romanian this means I'm off to bed...  )

[North Star]

Good night, gentlemen. (I don't know the top definitions of good and night in English, Danish or Finnish but in Romanian this means I'm off to bed...  )

Somn usor!

[Florestan]

Somn usor!

Thanks, really had it. 

[Florestan]

It would depend on the accuracy of the score.  Also, I think that the strict adherence/interpretation dichotomy is a false one.*  One can look at a score and follow it as strictly as possible to the best of one's ability, and it will still be an interpretation with unique characteristics.  Different scores also allow different amounts of leeway.

I don't believe in the idea of there being a single perfect interpretation for a given score to which all performances should aspire.  I think that all interpretations have some relationship to the work, and one can interpret it quite differently while responding directly to it in every single aspect.


* When people say "strict literalism," they usually mean "an interpretation that sounds mechanical" when they mean it negatively and "an interpretation that sounds more like my idea of what the music should sound like" when they mean it positively.  Neither concept is especially useful to me, given that I don't think a literal interpretation necessitates a certain sound.

Thank you for answering. I am in complete agreement, especially with the highlighted parts.

[Ken B]

Karlo's grasp of English is shockingly good.( I suspect he sold his soul to the devil for it, and that is why he must listen to La Mer - - penance.) In any case he is right about authentic, especially in this context.

[pjme]

Has this been mentioned ?

Wagner's "The Ring of the Nibelung" in historically-informed performance practice
05 October 2017
The German early music ensemble Concerto Köln and the American conductor Kent Nagano launch a leading-edge project: in cooperation with the University of Cologne and Hochschule für Musik und Tanz Cologne (Germany) they will undertake Richard Wagner's tetralogy, "The Ring of the Nibelung". Their endeavor will help provide the international opera scene new impetus for historically-informed approaches to musical-theatrical works of the 19th century. For the first time, the entire "Ring" will be be examined from the early music movement perspective: over the course of several years, the instrumental and vocal styles as well as the staging at the time of Wagner will be explored and a historically-informed performance conceptualized. A further aim of this extensive work on both a scientific and an artistic level is to serve as a performance practice guide to the fields of 19th century music and opera. While Kent Nagano is responsible for the overall project, Dr. Kai Hinrich Müller heads the scientific component.

The project officially begins on October 1st with key questions discussed in a symposium beforehand: What was Wagner's ideal in terms of performance practice of his "Ring"? How does it differ from the Wagner sound of today? How can his ideal be reconstructed? And which challenges must be overcome? Lecture subjects include the 'proper' pronunciation of German in the 19th century, Wagner's conducting, the playing style of string and wind instruments as well as the singing of Wagner, then and now. Featured lecturers are faculty members at major German universities, colleges and music institutions. All lectures and outcomes of the session will be subsequently published.

The scientific component is expected to be completed in 2019 at which time Kent Nagano will take over the musical realization. Kent Nagano: "Richard Wagner's "The Ring of the Nibelung" is probably one of the most researched compositions yet nonetheless, a systematic approach to the tetralogy from a historically-informed perspective has not been attempted thus far. It is therefore all the more important that such an undertaking is tackled and that, in romantic repertoire now as well, normality in terms of sound which seemed irrefutable so far, is called into question. I have collaborated with Concerto Köln for several projects in the past and am convinced that I have found two most competent partners in the Cologne ensemble and the Kunststiftung NRW who are able to provide the scientific basis for a historically-informed reading of Richard Wagner's "Ring". Together we will pursue this endeavor and bring the music to the stage!" The results will be performed in an interpretation by Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano during the 2020/21 season. All research findings will be published in Open Access.

The Kunststiftung NRW views the project as an excellent opportunity for the artistic development of the ensemble and will provide funds for a project office and two fellowships.

Further support is provided by the Freunde von Concerto Köln e. V., the Strecker-Stiftung and the long-standing partner MBL Akustikgeräte GmbH & Co. KG.

Source: http://kentnagano.com/wagners-ring-nibelung-historically-informed-performance-practice

I will go - if it reaches the stage.



Peter

[Ken B]

Andrei will complain that staging Wagner was a romantic era innovation...

[Florestan]

Andrei will complain that staging Wagner was a romantic era innovation...

Concerto Koeln playing Wagner? Not even you can be seriously contemplating such a horror. 

I have two comments to make.

First, I can hardly wait for them to come up with a natural, valveless Wagner tuba.

Second, if the whole thing will be recorded it will make Arthur Schoonderwoerd's one instrument per part recording of Beethoven's piano concertos look like a highly romanticized version.

I sincerely do hope this is a joke. If it's not, it only proves that the HIP gang is now "officially ripe for the madhouse".

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Concerto Koeln playing Wagner? Not even you can be seriously contemplating such a horror. 

I have two comments to make.

First, I can hardly wait for them to come up with a natural, valveless Wagner tuba.

Second, if the whole thing will be recorded it will make Arthur Schoonderwoerd's one instrument per part recording of Beethoven's piano concertos look like a highly romanticized version.

I sincerely do hope this is a joke. If it's not, it only proves that the HIP gang is now "officially ripe for the madhouse".

Where do you find the energy to be outraged at virtually everything that exists?

[Florestan]

Where do you find the energy to be outraged at virtually everything that exists?

You're wrong. I'm not outraged by your existence and I delight in Richard Taruskin's existence. 

And btw, this Concerto Koeln HIP Wagner does not exist yet. Just saying. 

[mc ukrneal]

Has this been mentioned ?

Wagner's "The Ring of the Nibelung" in historically-informed performance practice
05 October 2017
The German early music ensemble Concerto Köln and the American conductor Kent Nagano launch a leading-edge project: in cooperation with the University of Cologne and Hochschule für Musik und Tanz Cologne (Germany) they will undertake Richard Wagner's tetralogy, "The Ring of the Nibelung". Their endeavor will help provide the international opera scene new impetus for historically-informed approaches to musical-theatrical works of the 19th century. For the first time, the entire "Ring" will be be examined from the early music movement perspective: over the course of several years, the instrumental and vocal styles as well as the staging at the time of Wagner will be explored and a historically-informed performance conceptualized. A further aim of this extensive work on both a scientific and an artistic level is to serve as a performance practice guide to the fields of 19th century music and opera. While Kent Nagano is responsible for the overall project, Dr. Kai Hinrich Müller heads the scientific component.

The project officially begins on October 1st with key questions discussed in a symposium beforehand: What was Wagner's ideal in terms of performance practice of his "Ring"? How does it differ from the Wagner sound of today? How can his ideal be reconstructed? And which challenges must be overcome? Lecture subjects include the 'proper' pronunciation of German in the 19th century, Wagner's conducting, the playing style of string and wind instruments as well as the singing of Wagner, then and now. Featured lecturers are faculty members at major German universities, colleges and music institutions. All lectures and outcomes of the session will be subsequently published.

The scientific component is expected to be completed in 2019 at which time Kent Nagano will take over the musical realization. Kent Nagano: "Richard Wagner's "The Ring of the Nibelung" is probably one of the most researched compositions yet nonetheless, a systematic approach to the tetralogy from a historically-informed perspective has not been attempted thus far. It is therefore all the more important that such an undertaking is tackled and that, in romantic repertoire now as well, normality in terms of sound which seemed irrefutable so far, is called into question. I have collaborated with Concerto Köln for several projects in the past and am convinced that I have found two most competent partners in the Cologne ensemble and the Kunststiftung NRW who are able to provide the scientific basis for a historically-informed reading of Richard Wagner's "Ring". Together we will pursue this endeavor and bring the music to the stage!" The results will be performed in an interpretation by Concerto Köln and Kent Nagano during the 2020/21 season. All research findings will be published in Open Access.

The Kunststiftung NRW views the project as an excellent opportunity for the artistic development of the ensemble and will provide funds for a project office and two fellowships.

Further support is provided by the Freunde von Concerto Köln e. V., the Strecker-Stiftung and the long-standing partner MBL Akustikgeräte GmbH & Co. KG.

Source: http://kentnagano.com/wagners-ring-nibelung-historically-informed-performance-practice

I will go - if it reaches the stage.



Peter

I'd argue, to some extent (and mostly instrumentally), that this has already been done (by one of the least HIP conductors out there). Perhaps they will uncover some traditions that are not as intended and such, and it will be interesting to hear what it sounds like, but I am not expecting major revelations at this point. We have so much written on his music, numerous recordings from earlier in the 20th century, etc. And just because something was done doesn't make it inherently more 'authentic' (or whatever word you want to use).  As the HIP approach with contemporaries of Wagner has not really had much impact, I find it hard to get too excited.  But a new (or is it old?) perspective is always welcome as long as it adds something to the music/performance.

[Madiel]

As long as no-one pulls a George Lucas and tries to prevent other recordings existing, let them have a go.

Han shot first, dammit.

[Florestan]

I greatly exaggerated in order to make a point: Concerto Koeln of all people to play Wagner? Don't get me worng, I own and enjoy many of their recordings --- in the repertoire which suits them perfectly. But Wagner? For the life of me I can't think of a greater mismatch.

Seriously, could you imagine this as an orchestra able to make a difference in The Ring?

[Madiel]

Seriously, could you imagine this as an orchestra able to make a difference in The Ring?

I'm not sure whether we are discussing the limits of their ability, or the limits of your imagination.

[Florestan]

I'm not sure whether we are discussing the limits of their ability, or the limits of your imagination.

I'm discussing the limits of their size, for starters. 

Instrumentation

Wagner made significant innovations in orchestration in this work. He wrote for a very large orchestra, using the whole range of instruments used singly or in combination to express the great range of emotion and events of the drama. Wagner even commissioned the production of new instruments, including the Wagner tuba, invented to fill a gap he found between the tone qualities of the horn and the trombone, as well as variations of existing instruments, such as the bass trumpet and a contrabass trombone with a double slide. He also developed the "Wagner bell", enabling the bassoon to reach the low A-natural, whereas normally B-flat is the instrument's lowest note. If such a bell is not to be used, then a contrabassoon should be employed.

All four parts have a very similar instrumentation. The core ensemble of instruments are one piccolo, three flutes (third doubling second piccolo), three oboes, cor anglais (doubling fourth oboe), three soprano clarinets, one bass clarinet, three bassoons; eight horns (fifth through eight doubling Wagner tubas), three trumpets, one bass trumpet, three tenor trombones, one contrabass trombone (doubling bass trombone), one contrabass tuba; a percussion section with 4 timpani (requiring two players), triangle, cymbals, glockenspiel; six harps and a string section consisting of 16 first and second violins, 12 violas, 12 violoncellos, and 8 double basses.

Das Rheingold requires one bass drum, one tam-tam, one onstage harp and 18 onstage anvils. Die Walküre requires one snare drum, tam-tam, and an on-stage steerhorn. Siegfried requires one onstage cor anglais and one onstage horn. Götterdämmerung requires five onstage horns and four onstage steerhorns, one of them to be blown by Hagen.

So, about 90 players, that is more than 4 times the actual size of Concerto Koeln.

[pjme]

Well, the project has started: http://wagner-lesarten.de/

In Vorbereitung auf die Aufführungen des Ring veranstaltet Concerto Köln in Zusammenarbeit mit dem Team von WAGNER-LESARTEN verschiedene Workshops für beteiligte und interessierte Musikerinnen und Musiker. Die Workshops dienen der Annäherung an die Musik Richard Wagners, aber auch dazu, einen historisch informierten Klangkörper zu formen, der sich – analog zum ›Barockorchester‹ – als ›Romantikorchester‹ auf die Orchesterpraxis der Zeit spezialisiert. Die wichtigsten Klangkörper Wagners der 1870er- und der 1880er-Jahre – das Bayreuther Festspielorchester und das Münchener Hoforchester – dienen als Ausgangspunkt der Annäherung und der Wahl des Instrumentariums. In verschiedenen Vorkonzerten wird in diesem Sinne romantisches Repertoire der Zeit, u. a. von Hector Berlioz und Anton Bruckner, erprobt und zur Aufführung gebracht, bevor dann in der Spielzeit 2020/2021 Wagners Rheingold erklingen wird.

Concerto Koeln is organising workshops and looking for musicians. they will perform first Bruckner and Berlioz.

About the woodwinds:

For the sake of authenticity, inquiry into an adequate instrumentarium has consistently maintained a key role in historically informed performance practice. The considerations outlined here concern accordingly-systematic research into the instruments of the woodwind section for a possible ›ideal-typic‹ performance of Richard Wagner's opera cycle, The Ring of the Nibelung. For this purpose, general reference to the instrumentation of the first Festival Orchestra on the occasion of the premiere of the Ring in 1876 in Bayreuth is to be brought into question. The relevant details of the instrumentation, the woodwinds in particular, in the year of the premiere performance in 1876 will be outlined and highlighted initially. Subsequently, an alternative perspective on a historically informed woodwind section for Wagner's Ring will be explored.
Übersetzung: Jennifer Smyth

For the moment (I will read more later) it is not totally clear to me if Nagano and the NRW team will also perform the Ring in "authentic" sets and costumes.