The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[bhodges]

As someone who listens to PI performances now and then, I prefer that approach. Speaking as someone who was turned on to period performances (or "converted" if you like) by hearing some plain old-fashioned "outstanding musicianship," to me the result (i.e., PI) speaks for itself.

But on the other hand, sometimes it's quite entertaining to hear big, pumped-up, 1960s-style Bach. There's definitely room for both.

But I also like Bach on the piano...or the harpsichord...but then Bach sounds good on any number of instruments. Contemporary flutist Claire Chase (director of the International Contemporary Ensemble here) plays an arrangement of the Toccata and Fugue in D minor for flute solo, done by Salvatore Sciarrino - it's pretty dazzling stuff. (I do realize that's straying a bit from the point here.)

--Bruce

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Believe me, there are threads on this site where, if you admit to listening to Bach played on a piano, you will be treated like an orangutan. 

Ha!!

That's the flip side. I love HIP but I see MI dumping all the time on this board. It's not so overt which avoids wholesale toes from being stepped on but still it exists. The residual effect is to create an air of superiority, and since the whole thing is so subtle to call anyone out on it is to invite cries of pedantry.

Subtle or not it's still distasteful for me to read so I honestly have no sympathy for HIPsters who try to cry foul.

   

[Scarpia]

I am more comfortable with our knowledge of period instruments than I am with historically informed practice since with the latter there is  more guesswork, or more appropriately, detective work, involved and people of good faith will come to vastly different conclusions.

I suspect that observing what happens when you try to play those works on those instruments is just as important as reading old sources.  Balances that are hard to manage might just fall into place, or figuration that seems odd might suddenly sound right.  In Mozart, for instance, I've noticed that textures that sound good on fortepiano can sound muddy on modern piano.  The fortepiano had a short sustain, so Mozart kept the hands constantly moving to maintain sound production, which doesn't have the same effect on a modern piano.  I would imagine just using those old instruments would start a process of discovery.

[Elgarian]

I have observed more or less equal hostility from both sides.

Here, surely, is the pity of the thing: not what the proportion is one way or the other, but the absurdity that the issue should be a trigger for any hostility at all.

[Elgarian]

I suspect that observing what happens when you try to play those works on those instruments is just as important as reading old sources.  Balances that are hard to manage might just fall into place, or figuration that seems odd might suddenly sound right.  In Mozart, for instance, I've noticed that textures that sound good on fortepiano can sound muddy on modern piano.  The fortepiano had a short sustain, so Mozart kept the hands constantly moving to maintain sound production, which doesn't have the same effect on a modern piano.  I would imagine just using those old instruments would start a process of discovery.

Reading this, I found myself nodding vigorously. I hadn't thought of it myself, but I'm instantly persuaded.

[mc ukrneal]

Here, surely, is the pity of the thing: not what the proportion is one way or the other, but the absurdity that the issue should be a trigger for any hostility at all.

Very true...

[Que]

Believe me, there are threads on this site where, if you admit to listening to Bach played on a piano, you will be treated like an orangutan. 

Very funny indeed, but just stating for those who didn't get the joke: definitely not true...
I have Gould's complete Bach on the shelve, as well as Edwin Fischer's WTC. And believe me, I do enjoy these recordings.
And most prominent Bachians and HIP sters at GMG that come to mind, enjoy Bach on the piano as well.


It's a pity that the appreciation of period performances seems to create so much antagonism. And I hope André will return to us soon! 
It is not the philosophy and reasoning behind HIP, but the performances that ultimately convinced me of the merits of HIP. But I guess it is exactly the philosophy and reasoning behind HIP that makes some feel personally threatened and looked down upon in their enjoyment of performances that do not adhere to the HIP principles.

Alas, we can't change the fact that HIP is indeed born out of a concept on how an approach in music performance could bring us closer (not claim the eternal truth) to a composer's intentions and sound world. I cannot pretend it is not. But as I told before, that doesn't mean I'm judging anyone who enjoys Karl Böhm's Mozart symphonies. It is unfortunate that doesn't seem always sufficient to put everybody's unease to rest.

Q

[Karl Henning]

Besides, we're humane. You say "treated like an orangutan" like it's a bad thing.

[Mandryka]

But I don't think Bach on piano is so out of fashion as to be questioned.

According to bachcantatas.org there have been 30 new recordings of the Goldbergs on piano since 2010, 17 on harpsichord.

Between 1990 and 2000 there were 63 on piano and 36 on harpsichord.

In the 1980s there were 26 on piano and 30 on harpsichord.

UIn the 1970s 13 on piano and 16 on harpsichoprd.

In the 1960s there were 9 on piano and 17 on harpsichord.

In the 1950s 12 on piano and 10 on harpsichord.

Maybe someone would like to draw an interesting  conclusion.

[jlaurson]

...Maybe someone would like to draw an interesting  conclusion.

1.) There are more pianists than there are harpsichord players
2.) Recording has gotten easier
3.) Really looks like Gould and Landowska started something there, huh?!
4.) ...

[Elgarian]

Besides, we're humane. You say "treated like an orangutan" like it's a bad thing.

Speaking as an orangutang myself, I have no complaints beyond observing the ongoing shortage of bananas.

[DavidW]

I stand corrected Mandryka, I bow before the hard data. 0:)

[mc ukrneal]

According to bachcantatas.org there have been 30 new recordings of the Goldbergs on piano since 2010, 17 on harpsichord.

Between 1990 and 2000 there were 63 on piano and 36 on harpsichord.

In the 1980s there were 26 on piano and 30 on harpsichord.

UIn the 1970s 13 on piano and 16 on harpsichoprd.

In the 1960s there were 9 on piano and 17 on harpsichord.

In the 1950s 12 on piano and 10 on harpsichord.

Maybe someone would like to draw an interesting  conclusion.

Does piano include pianoforte?

[Sammy]

According to bachcantatas.org there have been 30 new recordings of the Goldbergs on piano since 2010, 17 on harpsichord.

Maybe someone would like to draw an interesting  conclusion.

Just about every keyboardist alive wants to record the Goldberg Variations, and there are many more pianists than harpsichordists.

As far as recordings since 2010, the numbers I come up with are somewhat different:

Piano           17
Harpsichord  10
Organ             3
Clavichord      1
Accordion       2
Ensemble      5

I don't count older recordings that have been reissued.

[Wakefield]

Clavichord      1

Benjamin-Joseph Steens?

[Mandryka]

Just about every keyboardist alive wants to record the Goldberg Variations, and there are many more pianists than harpsichordists.

As far as recordings since 2010, the numbers I come up with are somewhat different:

Piano           17
Harpsichord  10
Organ             3
Clavichord      1
Accordion       2
Ensemble      5

I don't count older recordings that have been reissued.

Where are you looking?  I was looking here:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV988-Rec8.htm

I just asked my computer to count how many cases of (piano) there are on the page and got 31. These

Andrea. Bacchetti
Artem Anuchin

Colin Noble

Tzvi Erez
Minsoo Sohn

Avner Arad (

Andrea Padova
Hristo Kazakov
Daniel-Ben Pienaar
Jean Muller
Peter Vinograde
Cory Hall
Samuel Post
Irina Zahharenkova
Chie Miyoshi
Nicholas Angelich
Alexander Gurning
Sachiko Kato
Daniel Blumenthal
Dan Tepfer
Lara Downes
David Jalbert
Jeremy Denk
Makiko Hirata
Claudio Colombo
Maria Perrotta
Remi Masunaga
Yuan Sheng
Kimiko Ishizaka
Caroline Hong
Marcel Worms

Maybe that method's not reliable. Are some of them re-releases . . . that must be it.

[Sammy]

Benjamin-Joseph Steens?

Yes, he's the one.

[Sammy]

Where are you looking?  I was looking here:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV988-Rec8.htm

I used various sources.  What's important to me is that the HIP/PI movement has been a tremendous boon for baroque music.  Before HIP, not many folks wanted to hear baroque music, and I can't blame them.  The music was played in a strongly romantic-era mode with rounded phrasing, syrupy legato and vibrato all over the place; put another way, Stokie and baroque music was a poor mix.

[Mandryka]

The interesting thing to me about the graph is why there should have been such a steep rise in the number of new piano performances over the past few years. At the same time the rate of new harpsichord releases seems to be declining -- the steepness of the line.

[Sammy]

The interesting thing to me about the graph is why there should have been such a steep rise in the number of new piano performances over the past few years. At the same time the rate of new harpsichord releases seems to be declining -- the steepness of the line.

Your own numbers show that the rate of new harpsichord releases has not been declining at all, but that new piano releases have increased even more substantially.  Why?  The much greater popularity of Bach and other baroque music created by the HIP movement; all pianists want to get in on the action.

I'm not clear what point you are trying to make.  If you prefer piano, you have many choices; same for harpsichord.  You also have a fair amount of organ and ensemble recordings if your taste runs in that direction.  Everyone has good reason to be happy about the situation.

Baroque is back, baby, and we have HIP to thank for it.